 The next item of business is a debate on motion 11381 on the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy on disabled children and young people transitions to adulthood Scotland bill at stage one. I would invite those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons. I call in Pam I can't grant you to speak to and to move the motion up to eight minutes please Mr. I can't grant you Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I moved the motion in my name Thank God for that now I can be your mum again Those were my mum's words when we heard that my transition to adulthood had at last been agreed After a lifetime of fighting wading through swathes of policy and papers that would put a library to shame Being up at the school more often than I was and watching me defer entry to university for two years because of a lack of a transitions plan She could finally retire as the project manager she'd been forced to be We were exhausted by the time energy brain and body power needed simply to give me a fighting chance at fulfilling my dreams That was 23 years ago But 23 years on there are still hundreds of thousands of families like mine Voiceless and struggling to get the fighting chance they deserve It is for them I have brought this bill and it is incumbent on all of us to be their voice today And every day and to make laws that improve their lives They don't need warm words or goodwill. They need laws to set out clearly that they have rights Joanne Lamont knew that in session five and brought this bill then and I want to put my thanks on record to her today I'd also like to thank Inclusion Scotland and Camp Hill Scotland for their support too They recognise the current system is failing and it only takes a quick glance at the evidence to see just how badly When Jamie Hepburn MSP asked a parliamentary question in 2008 Disabled people were three times more likely not to be an education employment or training 15 years later and there is little evidence that that has changed Disabled people are still considerably more likely to have no qualifications than their non-disabled peers The disability employment gap for young disabled people is 31% And only 7% of disabled learning disabled people are in work These are damning indictments of a systemic failure that is locking disabled people out of opportunity and holding our country back But colleagues the fact that I find the hardest to hear is this At age 16 young disabled people have the same aspirations as their peers By age 26 they believe nothing they can do will change their lives At a time when they should be excited about their future we are stripping them of hope Two decades ago my mum described it as falling off a cliff Just two months ago a disabled young person described it to me in similar terms She said it's like being thrown in the deep end and expected to know how to swim So little has changed and action is not an option A point on which we all agree A my inbox is full of why full of young disabled people preparing to leave school with no plans and no options And I'd like at this point to thank in particular The mums and dads disabled people different abled glasgo disability alliance children's hospice scotland Enabled diabetes scotland inclusion scotland spina bifida scotland and many many more many of whom are in the gallery here today For highlighting the lived experience of disabled people in scotland The experience tells us what the committee report concluded That existing approaches are complex cluttered and difficult to navigate Disconnected stressful and ultimately not delivering a scotland where disabled people can flourish The bill before us today is an opportunity to fix this That's why I'm deeply disappointed that the government set out on Tuesday afternoon that they do not intend to support the bill today I hope to use the remaining time I have to convince all of you to listen to disabled people and their families To do what they are asking to change the law Is not too late to do the right thing Presiding officer, let me put on record at this point My thanks to the committee for their work on this and crucially to the countless disabled people and their families who responded to the inquiry Who told their story and shared their worst fears if nothing else convinces colleagues that we should act their tenacity to fight for change should I welcome hugely the light that's been shone in this issue And for the work the committee did and I welcome the conclusions and many of the conclusions in the committee report around the need for change Indeed, such is the need for a case for change. The committee report could be described as a dossier of failure of the current system There are of course many ways to change that and I welcome the minister's offer to work together to identify collective solutions But colleagues, I remain firmly of the view that among the change in practice and policy that's proposed and sorely needed Unless we change the law for disabled people, we will not change their lives And so I say to the minister today I'm disappointed in your letter to committee It looks like the offer of working together will rely on me being content to ask families to wait and see if Existing non-legislative routes will work It is clear they don't It has been for years And I am not content to ask them to wait any longer Disabled people cannot keep waiting and seeing if a strategy or the next strategy will work or where the good practice will magically spread The Morgan review concluded that the system is over-dependent on committed individuals Fragmented and inconsistent and crucially that ASL is someone else's problem Usually that someone else is a parent or a carer or an overworked member of staff The bill before us today seeks to change that It gives a minister responsibility for transitions. It puts a strategy to sort this in law It gives young disabled people a right to a plan for their transition from school And it empowers organisations to work together to lighten the load from overburdened families The rights and opportunities of young people should not be left to chance Or rest on their luck in finding a sympathetic ear or having a carer or parent who has the resources, energy and time to keep fighting It shouldn't also rest on manifesto commitments and good faith acting ministers The SNP manifesto committed to a national transition strategy in 2016 Young disabled people who went to school then have left now with no strategy Almost all with no plan and with their future in tatters So Presiding Officer I think it is fair to say the legislative landscape is cluttered and complex And I'd ask the government why not take the opportunity of this bill to clarify it But as well as being complex I agree with Angela Morgan that it's full of loopholes, which is why we need new law One such loophole is in the right to a plan The committee report and the government rely on provisions in the Children and Young People Act and the ASL Act The provision referred to in the Children and Young People Act is for children's plans The relevant section of that act was never brought into force And the care and justice bill if passed will repeal it There is no statutory basis for them then The provision cited in the ASL Act is for a co-ordinated support plan But only 0.2% of eligible children access one And their provision is limited by whether a local authority sees fit to exchange information With the agency about an individual child There is no absolute right to have a transition plan or requirement to start these early And they're not focused on transitions or disabled people Nothing in existing law does this Nothing of substance has changed since the government proposed their strategy seven years ago The system is still broken The committee described many of these failures as an implementation gap And the government's response says they'll spread good practice to address it But what that response doesn't say is that the evaluation of the principles into practice Approach found that when resources were tight Pressure on staff and services meant they had to prioritise other work Above the principles into practice Without a statutory framework for a strategy How will transitions be protected in tough times And I don't say this to underplay the importance of that work But to highlight that a non-statutory approach Piloted in 10 authorities Which has shown that when resources are tight Its work is sidelined is not enough And it is not an argument against legislation But one that shows what good work could be done If it were underpinned by legislation Beside, disabled people are sick and tired of the right hinging on good will Today, on international carers day We could not just transform the lives of young disabled people But the lives of carers too Because we know it puts incredible stress on family and parents When I got elected I promised to put the ladder or the ramp out For other disabled people to follow That starts by making sure they have a clear right in law to a future With mechanisms to hold people to account And to make sure they have a fighting chance We have an opportunity today to do that To get ahead of the UNCRC incorporation Ahead of the UNCRPD incorporation To move from reliance on some good people to some good law Today we can put principles not just into practice But into legislation too Today we have an opportunity to vote to change the lives Of every young disabled person in the country We should take it and I sincerely hope we do Thank you Thank you, Ms Duncan Glancy And I now call on Sue Weber On behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee Up to seven minutes, please, Ms Weber Thank you, Presiding Officer I'm pleased to be speaking this afternoon On behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee Firstly, I'd like to thank the member in charge For introducing the bill that gave us the opportunity To discuss this very important issue Of how to improve the opportunities For disabled and young people as they grow up Both at committee and, importantly, here in the chamber today And I'd also like to thank colleagues For their detailed consideration of this bill And all the people and organisations who provided evidence Either in person or by responding to our call for views I'd like to mention Arc Scotland Who helped to organise very informative, informal sessions Involving young disabled people Called divergent influencers And a group of parents and carers Of disabled and young people And also a group of practitioners Involved in improving the experiences of young people As they make the vital transition to young adult life And I also want to thank the pupils At Buchanan High School An additional support needs secondary school In Coatbridge Who hosted an extremely informative visit On their preparations for leaving the school that year Speaking to all of those people Was invaluable And gave us a great insight Into the issues facing children and young people I will I was one of the members that had the privilege Of being on that visit And would Sue Weber agree with me That what was outstanding from that visit Was the quality of the leadership That was being shown in that school In terms of their attitude towards Their accountability to those young people Indeed, Mr Kerr I do agree And that's what we found on many times That it's down to individuals That are taking those leadership roles Within communities that are having the impact That are making a positive Changes to disabled people As they transition into adulthood I would also like to thank The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee I bet they don't get many thanks And the Finance and Public Administration Committee For their work scrutinising this bill And for sharing their conclusions And recommendations Given the complexities involved in this bill We took the unusual step of writing to both The Government and the member-in-charge With our findings, seeking a response Before finalising our report And I would like to thank both The Government and Pam Duncan-Glancy For their helpful and extensive responses I'd like to say at the outset The committee was not convinced that The general principles of the bill Should be agreed to with the exception Of Martin Whitfield, who attended As committee substitute for the member-in-charge And today I intend to set out briefly Some of the reasons why we came to this conclusion I do want to be clear though And I cannot reinforce this position enough We argued that doing nothing In relation to improving outcomes For disabled children and young people In the transition to adulthood was not an option We are extremely And we are extremely concerned When we heard evidence Of the poor experiences of transitions For many disabled young people And we agreed that things must change And they must change quickly Turning to the bill itself It requires the Scottish Government To introduce and implement a national transition strategy For improving transitions to adulthood For disabled children and young people And it also says that there should be a transitions plan For every disabled child or young person And going from what we heard The committee agreed that a national transition strategy Was needed And importantly we were aware That the government was already working on this So we pressed the government for a committed timeline And further information on its development We were deeply concerned to hear That young people and their families Were not always being listened to by professionals Some young people told us that their transition Was often built around What people thought was right for them Rather than what they wanted to do This is not acceptable The committee recommended that the experiences Of those who have been through transitions Should be at the heart of the design Of any national strategy And this should help to ensure that Negative outcomes are avoided And a person-centred approach is built upon The government has now published Its statement of intent Which summarised its research And engagement on the strategy And set out what the Scottish Government Should focus on now I will Pam Duncan-Glancy I thank the member for taking the intervention And can the member set out whether the committee Has had confirmation of when the strategy Will be published? Sue Webber As far as I'm concerned, Pam Duncan-Glancy I have not yet had that detail And perhaps in the government's Contributions they can make that clear for us But turning to that And make that point Make no mistake We intend to return to this issue In terms of the transition strategy And we'll be pressing the government to move quicker On introducing and implementing An appropriate and robust national strategy It will not be an option for this strategy To lie on a shelf, gathering dust The committee heard concerns about The legislative competence of the bill's provision Assigning a minister with special responsibility And with the accuracy of the costs That was negotiated with the bill And the member in charge did respond to these points A major concern for us was around how this bill If it became an act, we'd interact with the laws That were already in place in this area For example, the existing legislative framework Referred to additional support needs Rather than disability And we felt it was unclear who exactly Would be covered by this bill The committee was also concerned about the needs For a diagnosis in order for young people To support as set out in the bill While the 2010 Equality Act Definition of disability used in the bill Does not require a diagnosis to be made The member for taking that intervention And the member will remember that on the record In committee I said I could amend the bill At stage 2 to take the part about diagnosis Out in recognition of that The member will also recognise that The definition of disabled people used in the bill Is about that specific group of people That's why we chose the definition in the Equality Act I can give you a bit of time The inability to define that Formed part of the crux And some of the challenges that we faced With the accuracy of the financial memorandum And we now know already How the challenges that young people have With additional support needs that are desperate for a diagnosis And the weights that are required there But carrying on, we felt that the bill Would introduce conflict into an already Cluttered legislative landscape The committee heard that many children And young people face long waiting times As I've just said for diagnosis And some young people do not wish to pursue a diagnosis Or view themselves as disabled Or as having a disability And for these reasons the committee Is concerned that the bill would place A statutory duty on local authority To provide transitions plans To disable people and young people On how they would identify the eligible children And the young people in the area Worryingly, on the legislation Currently in place We heard that there has not had the positive impact That was envisaged With many witnesses describing it as being Complex, cluttered And difficult to navigate for young people And their families Several stakeholders highlighted the poor deployment Of co-ordinated support plans By local authorities despite These being statutory plans Many stakeholders spoke about the considerable Difficulties faced by those we work To support young people in their transition To adult hoot with extreme pressures On resources in local authorities Health and social care systems And the precarious nature of funding In the third sector We heard issues around organisational cultures Particularly differences between children And adult services and the difficulties With information sharing We do not believe the bill would resolve With resourcing and interactions Between children and adult services And that said, we agreed that action Must be taken to address these issues As a matter of urgency And the government must ensure this happens I have not had time To cover all the issues raised During our scrutiny of the bill But I look forward to hearing from other members Of the committee during the debate this afternoon To close The education children and young people committee Supports the aims behind this bill And commend the member in charge For bringing this bill before us However, we were not convinced That it should progress beyond stage 1 For the reasons set out in our report And in my comments I've mentioned today Thank you Thank you Ms Webber I now call on Minister Natalie Don Up to 7 minutes please Thank you, Presiding Officer Now I want to begin today By thanking the member Pam Duncan-Glancy For the spotlight that she has shown For disabled people through her bill And equally for setting out her own Personal experience and her contribution today Equally, I want to pay tribute To those who have worked with her In developing the bill And I'd also like to express my appreciation To the convener, Sue Webber And all of the members of the education children And young people's committee For their thorough consideration of the bill And for their comprehensive report Like everyone here I wholeheartedly share Pam Duncan-Glancy's ambitions Of the experiences and outcomes Of disabled young people as they make The transition to young adult life Becoming an adult is an extremely Important time in any young person's life It can be exciting, but it can also be daunting It can be a time of hope But also a time of uncertainty Now there are already examples Of good practice across Scotland Which the committee heard about For example, the benefits of Transitions co-ordinators The experiences young people are having At this school, which the committee visited And the work of the association for real changes Scottish transitions forum And they enable work stepping up programme Both of which are funded by the Scottish Government However, we absolutely recognise That at the moment too many disabled young people Are not getting the support that they need I followed the stage 1 evidence On the bill closely and have heard young people Their families and practitioners Share experiences that fall Well sure of what we know that they need And what they have the right to expect And the Scottish Government is deeply committed To improving transitions for disabled young people So that they can all have a positive And supported experience We recognise the challenges raised in the committee's evidence In respect of disabled young people's experiences Of their transition to adulthood And we are resolutely determined to do more We've already given non-statutory effect To two of the main provisions within the bill This is through the joint ministerial leadership For transitions of myself And the Minister for Equalities, Migration and Refugees And through the commitment to introduce Scotland's first national transitions To adulthood strategy And in response to the question from Pam Duncan Glancy I am pleased to confirm today That we will aim to publish the strategy By the end of next year This is an integral part of our work To improve transitions for disabled young people On the 28th of September 2023 We published our statement of intent On the strategy And this sets out the proposed vision, scope And priorities for the strategy Which are based on what we've heard Through research and stakeholder engagement To date Accompanying the published statement of intent Is an online survey which will be open Until the end of November 2023 And this survey provides a vital opportunity For us to hear directly From more people with lived experience And we are keen to capture the widest Possible feedback Now I'd like to turn now To talk about this bill specifically And why, despite my genuine, genuine gratitude To Pam Duncan Glancy And those who have supported her in that work If the strategy is going to be published By the end of next year When will something actually change In the estimation of the minister In terms of the life experience That young people have As they make this transition When will something actually arrive That will make a material difference to their experience Minister We are already taking actions now And through the statement of intent We are listening to feedback And encouraging further action And as I say, the publication of that strategy By the end of next year Will take direct input From the statement of intent Pam Duncan Glancy I thank the minister for taking the intervention On my date, I still think it's too late And we'd echo my colleague Stephen Kerr's concerns About how soon change will happen But can the minister also set out How, as my bill does, sets the structure for this How will it be monitored How will it have parliamentary scrutiny And how will we know if it's working or not Minister So I'm going to come on to a lot of that In my contribution today So if the member's happy for me To set that out as I go along In terms of wanting things to happen faster Absolutely, I absolutely do And where I can push change further I absolutely will So as I say, I'd like to turn now to talk about the bill And why despite my gratitude to the member And those who have supported in that work I agree with the conclusions of the committee That this bill is unlikely to be the most Effective way to make the improvements Which are required Now the Education, Children and Young People Committee In its stage 1 report raised a number Of important questions about the bill Particularly how it would work in practice And whether it would actually deliver On its intended goals Now Sue Weber has just highlighted some of these concerns And this Government shares many of these In particular The bill would require local authorities Develop an individual transition plan For each disabled young person In a local authority area But it remains unclear exactly Who would be covered by the bill And how they would be identified Is also unclear Is also unclear I thank the minister for taking intervention The definition of who will be covered by the bill Is the same definition that the Government is proposing In its strategy I can give the minister a bit of time back for the interventions Minister Thank you very much, Presiding Officer As I've said sorry to the member I am laying out I will come to these points I'm just laying out my concerns As reiterated by the committee convener as well It's also unclear who would be responsible For managing and implementing those plans The bill mandates a plan For each young person Even in cases in which the young person Does not necessarily want one And I believe that planning should be Person-led adapting flexibly To what the young person finds most Helpful The committee have also recognised concerns That we highlighted in our stage 1 evidence About the duplication and overlap Of key aspects of existing legislation And it concludes that the bill risks creating Additional complexity And the confusion for disabled young people And their families As well as for professionals trying to navigate This landscape And this has been mirrored in feedback from Stakeholders Many stakeholders who responded to the committee's call For views or provided evidence Have raised similar concerns COSLA said it does not support the call For a new bill as there is significant legislation Already in place The Association of Directors of Education Suggests that there is already reasonable Realtime legislation for real change Scotland Said that it continues to have multiple concerns About whether the bill in its present form Will meet its intended aims We also agree with the findings of the committee And many of those who provided views To the committee including COSLA And a number of local authorities And integrated joint boards In respect of the uncertainty of the cost Implications of the bill And likely underestimation of the financial Memorandum It's clear that should the bill That it would require substantial amendment To address the legal and the practical issues Raised I would like to finish by reiterating My thanks to Pam Duncan-Glancy For her tireless work on this important matter I will continue to work with the member On our shared ambition to improve Transitions for disabled young people And that is regardless of the outcome Of today However for the reasons I have set out The Scottish Government agrees with the Conclusions of the committee That is expressed by COSLA And organisations such as Association for Will Change Scotland and others That the bill will not necessarily deliver On its laudable aims to resolve the issues Experienced by disabled young people But I am sure that the focus And the priority we are taking forward Will Thank you Thank you minister And I now call on Liam Kerr Up to six minutes please Mr Kerr Thank you Presiding Officer This bill having been well Entrained by the time I joined The education committee right for the summer recess My initial thoughts were very positive Improving outcomes for disabled Children and young people in the transition To adulthood is absolutely The right thing to do Particularly Given the poor experiences Of transitions for many disabled Young people that I heard about Through the committee and particularly Given the statistics That we got from Inclusion Scotland That one year after leaving school Those with impairment related Additional support needs are more than twice As likely to be unemployed And that by age 19 As Pam Duncan Glancy brought up earlier Young people with impairments Are three times as likely To be not in employment, education Or training And the committee's conclusions That there's currently no systematic Data on children and young people's Experiences of transitions to adulthood Is deeply troubling And I also Commend Pam Duncan Glancy for bringing this forward And for fighting to give People a voice Because what she's highlighted Is that yet again it has been Left to the opposition To proactively seek solutions To the challenges facing the people Of Scotland and indeed Force action From this Scottish Government Colleys, we must get this right We owe it to those Who gave evidence To those who have lived experience Of what's not going right And to those who one day Will need these transitions And because I came to this Late it allowed me to ask myself Several questions Firstly Whether legislation Per se is the best way To improve transitions for disabled Children and young people Because the evidence That was provided to the committee's inquiry Seems to suggest that it may not be Presiding Officer, yesterday In the education committee members Heard from those impacted by the promise And the failure to make more progress As well as the agencies charged with Delivering it And they told us that Ever more legislation In an already cluttered landscape Lacking financial clarity and resource Challenges In how it interrelates To pre-existing legislative frameworks Has led to the current difficulties In the Scottish Government's achievement Of what our laudable aims Which was exactly What the National Deaf Children's Society Seem to be saying When they told the committee That there might be duplication Between the outcomes of this bill The CSPs, the IEPs And the Child's Plan Of 2014 They also flag concerns around duplication Between the national transition strategy And part three of that act And that is in a situation Where the committee heard that the current Complex, cluttered landscape Is already difficult to navigate For young people and their families And indeed the Scottish Transitions Forum told the committee that The Scottish Government's resources Would be better deployed in clarifying Simplifying and supporting The implementation of its existing Policy framework But then I asked myself whether If I was wrong on that Such that more legislation is needed To improve outcomes for disabled children And young people in transitions Is this bill that legislation Will this bill achieve the changes That Pam Duncan-Glancy highlights Are needed and rightly Demands And whilst I do come to this bill later Than colleagues, I also come as a solicitor Who spent the best part of 20 years Interpreting legislation In particular aspects Of the Equality Act, as well as drafting Complex legal documents And what was clear from the report From the evidence, from the law Society's submission, my own analysis Amongst others, is that Alongside the concerns Raised by the likes of COSLA Around the financial memorandum And those raised by the NSWT Around the workload and burden on teachers Were significant concerns Around definitions and drafting So, for example, as we've heard The need for a diagnosis Of disability for young people To access support, now that feels Retrograde to me, as well as Potentially difficult to achieve In the current situation in Scotland Given the interplay with section 6 Of the Equality Act And coming back to some of those organisations Who, like me, unequivocally Support the intention But have concerns on the implementation The Royal College of Occupational Therapists Raised concerns that Poor IT systems will have a negative impact On transition planning And under this government Those IT systems aren't going to change anytime soon Enable Scotland flagged a risk That this bill may lead to the imposition Of a one-size-fits-all approach Scottish autism felt at risk Divert an attention and resources from abroad A whole life approach and crucially The National Deaf Children's Society Raised concerns that the bill may have A detrimental impact on transition Support in early years So, if that is right Or more accurately the witnesses And the committee's extensive examination And concluding on the actual Bill proposes right, then I cannot Help but conclude that Even if we accept that Legislating is the proper way forward At this stage to achieve what we all hope To, this bill may not Get it right for the people that It needs to, which brings me back To the Scottish government, because as I say I really admire Pam Duncan-Glancy For bringing this forward, for giving People a voice and for forcing The government's hand. And we received earlier this week a detailed letter Which purports to implement The changes needed and the recommendations Of the committee, and although Like Pam Duncan-Glancy I remain deeply wary Of anything that this government says It will commit to, it strikes me That the best way to achieve The important, the worthy Principles and intentions that the Member rightly demands Is not through this legislation But by continuing her proactive And her positive engagement With both the committee and the government And holding them to account To deliver on these much needed reforms They've promised and legislated for But failed to deliver And that will achieve all That we all want to see Thank you Mr Kerr And I now call on Martin Whitfield Up to six minutes please Mr Whitfield I'm very grateful Deputy Presiding Officer And it's a great pleasure on behalf of Scottish Labour To open this debate On behalf of Scottish Labour And the disabled children and young people Transitions to adulthood Scotland Bill And in particular because I have The acute and wise Eyes of my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy Sat to my right But I do so Because this is a stage 1 debate On the general principles Of a Bill The next stage Within this Parliament Would be to go to stage 2 For investigation The addition, subtraction Of sections, amendments And I think in that we would see Some of the answers that the previous speaker Has raised as questions And in particular a number of speakers Have raised the question of costs Of a memorandum that attaches with it And it would of course be at that stage That an updated memorandum would be placed So there would be an understanding Of the financial implications And here we are In the throes of talking In my new shy about the financial implications About the process Of a Bill's progress Through the Scottish Parliament When what we're actually talking about Are people We're talking about The disabled children And young people And as my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy Stated This goes back to the previous session Indeed it goes back long before that With a colleague Joanne Lamont That brought a Bill That fell because of the chronology of time But it is fascinating That in the reach out for evidence That she undertook One of the responses that came in Was from the then children Young people often report experiencing abrupt loss of support At the point they leave school Or formal education A concern which has been raised With our office by young people And their parents The fragmentation of current planning processes Negatively impacts disabled children's rights The purpose of this Bill Would require the Scottish Government To have a strategy to explain How they are going to improve The opportunities of disabled children And young people The Scottish Government minister To be in charge of improving opportunities For disabled children and young people Moving into adulthood And local authorities to have plans For each disabled child And young person as they move into adulthood Why? Because transitions are challenging At the best of times Everyone goes through different transitions In their lives But we are asking A group of young people Who bring a disability To do it In a landscape That is truly Utterly chaotic And we have many organisations Many representatives Many parents Many disabled children watching in today And I think it's important That we recognise the audience that watched this And the audience from even overseas Who look To this Bill Who look towards this Bill As a signpost of how to do things better The question though Is how does this Bill And I agree with everyone that has spoken In respect to its laudable aims How does this Bill Actually change the experience Of the young people That are at the centre of our concern How do we stop this From becoming a tick box exercise And what do we do about the culture That undermines these initiatives As with so many other initiatives that are laudable I'm grateful for the intervention Because the Scottish Government would be Proud to have a strategy to explain Because the Scottish Government would have to Appoint a minister to take responsibility Because local authorities Local authorities would have to have Plans in place for each disabled child And young person as they move into adulthood That is where the responsibility would lie That is where a young person That is where their family That is where their friends That is where their communities could turn to look at And say how are you doing it We talked about the promise earlier today We still Reiterate the agreement Of the importance of arriving And completing that promise And we have here another An appalling phrase but I will use it A subset of the human race We are treating so poorly Every speaker so far has talked about The chaos that is the current landscape We have seen good practice And for every element of good practice There is bad practice Apparent This has been the most The most stressful year of my life To put that into context My daughter went through brain surgery at eight years old But this was more stressful We are given the excuse Our young people are too complex Previously they wouldn't have lived into Adderholt And that's the excuse for the awful care offered And I want to take account of one contribution About a 23-year-old young man I am conscious of time, Deputy Presiding Officer Who is now a University of Glasgow graduate Whose parents says I had to approach the University admissions department myself To ask about adjustments to entry qualifications And information about the ASN Additional support needs Supports he would need and receive The careers service actually advised Not to waste a line on his application By applying to University of Glasgow I have Well, I can Allow you time for the introduction Let me finish this And my apologies The careers service advised him Not to waste a line on his application Applying to University of Glasgow Strangely enough This is where he's successfully graduated With a 2.1 If we fail Our disabled young people If we fail to give them an environment In which they are supported To achieve what they can And I'm going to say this Quite easily achieve with the proper support We not only do a disservice To that individual We do a disservice to Scotland And the future that we need Is able to articulate the steps Going forward with the strategy Because we need to remember The strategy being published Towards the end of next year Means that the first children That it could possibly apply to Are currently in S2 That is a lot of children Transitioning before that date Without support in many many Areas of Scotland I'm grateful for your indulgence Deputy Presiding Officer and I can confirm That Scottish Labour will be supporting this Stage 1, come over Thank you Mr Whitfield And I now call on Willie Rennie Up to six minutes please Mr Rennie When I first became a Member of Parliament Ferdinand Firmland I met The parents involved in something called The Diamond Club And they were the most ferocious group Of parents that I've ever met And they had to be ferocious Because they had to fight every single day To get their disabled Now adults Because they were increasingly elderly The rights that they deserve And that struck with me forever Because they shouldn't have had To fight so hard To get what they were entitled to But we're not going to support this bill And we're not going to support this bill Because the evidence Was overwhelming Who wouldn't want to support a bill That would improve the life chances Of the people I've just been talking about At The Diamond Club Who wouldn't want to do that That's why the committee went out of her way Probably quite unusually To spend a lot of time Trying to get the member and the Government To reach some kind of compromise Some kind of way ahead Because who wouldn't want to It doesn't look good that we're rejecting A bill on this basis That's trying to improve The rights of disabled people Through transition And embarrassment That it's taken this long This long for the Government To understand the current system Is not adequate Now I know the minister's just new Into our position so it's not really Her responsibility for the legacy Of this but it has been going on For years And it shouldn't have taken Pam Duncan-Glancy To introduce a bill to this Parliament To get the Government to start Producing a strategy That might not come until the end of next year To a long time This should have been done before now So it is shameful that we're at This position and to be honest I'm embarrassed as well that this Parliament Has not stepped up and done more Until now Certainly Pam Duncan-Glancy Does the member agree with me That it's a real shame that the first commitment That we had from the Government in this was in 2016 And we're still waiting And this is one of the reasons why I Am conflicted with this whole bill Because I do understand legislation Is permanent, it's on the statute book It's there, it creates a compulsion For Government to act And strategies and motions and debates Are fleeting And it might be the top of the issue today But tomorrow it might be forgotten So I do worry about that That by not agreeing to this bill We might just be given the Government A pass to move on And other things to deal with And it doesn't, you know Dispens its responsibility Likely So I do worry about that But fundamentally the bill I think is flawed I think we've already understand That the landscape Is conflicted and confusing It's got lots of legislation That overlaps, we understand that But the evidence we heard As Liam Kerr set out He thought that the bill would make it worse And there's no point in pusing foot Around that, it would make it worse And the last thing we need Is to make the situation worse Is to set people back To set organisations back On the plans that we've already got In place, because we've heard I mean, Pamddon Conglant saying Martin Whitfield are right The things about diagnosis and scope And costings and all That can all be probably sorted out Is the problem of the legislation That's already conflicting And this would make it worse So that's why I can't In all honesty support the bill But I suppose it's a warning From the Parliament to the Government If we're back here again in five years time We will be pushing for legislation And the minister has said That quite clearly In her letter to us That duplication and overlapping Of key aspects Of existing legislation Why is the Government not sorting that They should have brought forward their own bill To sort out the overlap And the duplication If they are worried about that already Now I know that's a complex thing Because it involves looking at all the other pieces Of legislation But the Government should be looking into The current, the existing landscape To try and get some clarity on that So we can move forward With a bit more purpose The Government doesn't do the strategy And if it's not effective And I do visit the Diamond Club again And I find that they're just as ferocious As they were back in 2006 One final example I want to give Was the I visited the usual place in Dumfries Which many of us have already heard of They do fantastic work Training people with disabilities Getting them on the employment ladder Passing them on to other employers Who can see the fantastic Individuals that have been moulded From that organisation It's a great cafe and visitor centre It's a tremendous place It almost closed this year We should not be facing a circumstance Where organisations like that That are getting it right Are closing for the lack of funding Why have we not got a funding stream That guarantees almost like the apprenticeship scheme That guarantees the funding For where organisations do the work They have to beg and borrow They have to go from one block grant To the other, from one charity to the other To get the funding to keep it going That place should be guaranteed A future with guaranteed funding So they can guarantee Those young people a decent transition This is what it's all about At the end of the day it's about Priorities for people We should be creating a greater priority For this group of people Who bluntly have been let down When you look at the figures It's enable provided this figure 175,000 people With a learning disability In Scotland Only 7% Only 7% Have paid employment That's a shameful position For Scotland to be in So let's resolve today I won't agree to the bill But let's resolve to make sure That we come back and hold the Government's feet to the fire So we're not back here in five years time Whether we should have a bill or not Thank you Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will now move to the open debate. I remind members that speeches of up to six minutes please. I call Ruth Maguire to be followed by Ross McCall, Ms Maguire. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Pam Duncan-Glancy For bringing this bill to our Parliament And keeping us focused on The important issue of the poor experience Of transitions for many disabled young people. We need to be clear with colleagues And with government that there is a need To act promptly on these issues. There's a need to improve Disabled children and young people's Experiences of transitions. Pam Duncan-Glancy is absolutely right That inaction is not an option. We're not only impeding individuals If we don't get this right We're also the countries losing out On a whole host of talent. Witnesses told the committee That young people and their families Were not always listened to by professionals That there was a disconnect between Children's and adult services With poor communication across agencies And with young people and their families And often there was no clear person To take the lead on transitions Leading to parents and young people Having to advocate for themselves We also heard of pockets of good practice And I would want to Acknowledge and thank the huge Weeds of committed individuals For maintaining kind, thoughtful, effective practice In a system under huge strain But the current situation Despite those pockets of good practice Is affecting far too many children Young people and their families It is not good enough I was at an event on Tackling poverty and inequality In the early years on Monday And someone used an interesting phrase They said if the only tool you have Is a hammer you can end up thinking Everything is a nail The current legislative landscape In this specific area alone Was described by many witnesses As being complex, cluttered And difficult to navigate for young people And their families And in some instances for the professionals Working to support them In Scotland we do have some world leading legislation And gold standard policy We really do We also have consensus That the approach to policy making Should be taken But that is only meaningful When it makes a material difference To the lives of the citizens we represent And that they are able to access Not only their rights But also seek redress where public bodies Are not delivering on their duty The committee heard that there was an implementation gap With the existing laws and policy There are issues relating to resources There are issues around inconsistent practice Access to services across Scotland Organisational cultures Particularly the differences Between children's and adult services And difficulty with information sharing The answer to that Implementation gap Is not more legislation That general principle Aside there are a number of reasons Why the committee could not support This specific bill The bill differs from existing Legislative framework To additional support needs rather than disability It was unclear Exactly who would be covered in the bill And how they'd be identified The use of the equality act 2010 definition of disability Is likely to entitle a larger cohort Of young people to a transitions plan Than the number of young people Currently being supported by social services Committee heard that many disabled children And young people and their families Are currently unable to receive Much needed support From social services Due to pressures on resources and staffing This is implications For how the bill could work in practice As it states that transitions plans Should be managed by an officer Of the local authority As other colleagues have mentioned The committee was concerned about The need for a diagnosis In order for young people to access support We know from evidence That many young people and children Face a long time A long waiting time for diagnosis And also that some young people Don't wish to pursue a diagnosis Or view themselves as disabled Or having a disability Requiring a diagnosis to access The provisions of the bill would present An additional barrier to receiving support For a number of young people At a crucial stage of their life I thank the member for taking that intervention And I know how passionately Other members believe in this issue But the member knows that I gave evidence to that committee And I would amend the bill about the diagnosis I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention And I acknowledge that amendments Could be made at stage 2 I think that in general terms The bill just wasn't fit yet And I think that the amount of amendment That would have been needed was just not practical There were also issues with the financial Memorandum As we've heard Without clarity On who exactly would be entitled To a transitions plan under the bill It was impossible for accurate estimates Of cost and resource implications And that has problems for implementation Concerns were also expressed About the capacity of teachers To manage much of the initial planning process As part of their existing responsibilities As was envisaged in the bill For young people with more complex needs In transitions spanning health Social care, education, housing And third sector A number of different agencies There was also a question of how appropriate It would be for a teacher to take on this role Presiding Officer, I am running out of time There's a lot to discuss on this I suppose what I would ask of the Government Of the Minister in closing Is a little bit dismaying that the strategy Is going to be by the end of next year I wonder if there are things That she could do to press for change As we're going along to the launch Of that strategy It doesn't feel right to wait that long Children and young people having their rights Not realised is not acceptable And it's an injustice to the individuals But, as I say, our country Is also missing out on all that talent Presiding Officer Thank you, Ms McGuire I now call Rose McCall to be followed By Stephanie Callahan up to six minutes Ms McCall Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer I welcome the opportunity to Contribute to the debate on The disabled children and young people Transition to adulthood bill at Stage 1 Again, I make no apologies Had to every time for using My short time in Parliament To consistently stand up For the rights of all children Whether they're care experienced Struggling with their mental health Or transitioning into adulthood The bill in front of us today Relating to disabled children and young people Are undoubtedly admirable And I applaud Pam Duncan-Glancy For driving this forward I note Scottish Autism's Support for the principle of the bill In their submission to the Education Children and Young People Committee As they said, the aims of the bill are laudable And we welcome any moves To smooth transition for disabled children And young people into adulthood Thus removing the cliff edge Which exists for too many As they leave for full-time education And I agree This is a cliff edge felt by many We know that care experienced children Are in the same situation when they find The transition out of their relevant care support network Into a non-structured one In terms of accessing on-going support And the negative impact that that has on their lives We recognise this And we have the promise As a road map to actively achieve Their prospects But where is the road map for children with disabilities? In terms of the impact Of a child or young person's disability On their life chances The facts are clear and well understood We know that young people With declared disability are less likely To enter work after leaving school Than those without We know that young people with a declared disability Are twice as likely to be unemployed After leaving school than those without And we know that the acceptance rate Into university for Scottish students With a declared disability Is lower than for students With a declared disability in the rest of the UK I agree with the committee's Stage 1 report Which concludes that more work must be done To support those transitioning Into adulthood Which states that those with responsibility For transitions must do more To ensure that there is a focus And an urgency Around improving the experiences of disability Disabled children and young people Transitioning into adulthood This includes but is not limited to The Scottish Government, local authorities Education, health and social care services And the NHS We know what the problems are But is this bill the right vehicle To deliver meaningful change For children and young people with a disability? With the stated intention of the bill Which is to introduce and implement A national transition strategy To improve outcomes for disabled Children and young people In the transition into adulthood Actually deliver clarity To agencies who will be tasked With delivering those plans Again, I highlight the submission From Scottish autism who states Whether the bill can meet those aims However will depend on how legislation Is implemented, once enacted And how the agency is responsible For delivering the legislation Are held to account for those I would like to be in a position To support this bill today But unfortunately in my opinion The bill in its current form lacks detail On costings and raises many issues Regarding who is responsible For the transition plans The additional strain on local authority resources And how the intentions of this bill Could be implemented in practice I have deep concerns about the financial Memorandum associated with the bill As already been mentioned And this was a concern that was raised At stage 1 report from the committee And I want to pull out one part of that Without clarity on who Exactly would be entitled to a Transition plan under the bill It's not possible to accurately Estimate the cost and resource Implications associated with Implementing that bill These concerns about costings Matter especially on delivery We cannot deliver for disabled Children and young people and improve Their life chances by providing A smoother transition into adulthood If the bill is not properly costed In fact we would be doing the opposite We would be failing them Processes would ultimately Be put under immense strain And that laudable goal of the bill To actively change the lives Of many disabled young children And young people would simply not happen I so wanted to support The principle of the bill And I certainly agree with the concept I would challenge anyone to disagree With disabled children Through difficult and challenging times In their lives So why has it taken Pam Duncan Glancy's Members bill to highlight these issues Transitioning from childhood to Elderhood as a disabled member In our Scottish society We know that members bills don't have The full forces of the structure behind them Civil service support and financial will Are within the Scottish Government's hands And it's shameful that after 16 years In power disabled children Are not further up the priority list For this SNP green administration So in conclusion deputy presiding officer Whilst the concept is commendable And the aim is admirable The bill in this form has too many flaws To make it workable I so dearly wanted to support it In principle at stage 1 And amend out the issues through 2 and 3 But sadly I say that is not possible Thank you Thank you Miss McCall I now call Stephanie Callahan to be followed Thank you I'm also pleased To speak in the debate as a member of the education Young people and children committee And as others have done I thank all the people who generously Gave evidence to our committee And to my colleagues and the committee clerks For all their hard work And in particular I want to thank Pam Duncan Glancy for her tireless campaign And the truly champions the rights of disabled people And that goes beyond this bill too From the outset I've been supportive Of the need to address the huge challenges Around transition And while I'm not convinced that the general principles Of this bill is the right approach I do whole heartedly agree that the Scottish Government Must address the real and serious challenges As a matter of urgency Presiding Officer In evidence sessions Our committee learned that transition planning For disabled people is often an afterthought With overlooked or rushed transition plans Resulting in many young individuals Been directed down paths That don't really align With their personal aspirations And truth is difficult to see these As positive destinations Transitions can happen organically With time incorporated to explore More meaningful avenues That pave the way for achieving individual goals And aspirations And during our committee visit to Buchanan high school Which is already been mentioned a couple of times In North Lanarkshire We saw this working at ground level And I vividly remember this inspiring example Of multiagency teams Working together To guide pupils through sustainable And positive destinations That went beyond school One example was an autistic pupil With dreams of becoming an airline pilot And school arranged a visit to the airport As well as being fascinated by the planes This young man was intrigued By the baggage system And he is now happily working As a baggage handler And I'm sure we'd all agree While I acknowledge that the bill underscores The importance of taking person-centred Approach to transition planning I believe that legislative measures alone Can't capture the essence of examples like this Instances of kindness and relationships That truly make a difference In a young person's life Throughout our evidence sessions We heard again and again That families had good experiences Sorry, that families had good experiences When individuals stepped up to support them Individuals who listened And focused on their views And their wishes Embedding strategies with a holistic focus And advocacy and supportive relationships Will be really key moving forward The successful principles And to practice trials emphasise This need for young people To develop stable relationships And the learning from these pilots Needs to be fed into the Scottish Government's National Transition To adulthood strategy An important task that we must address Also is accountability So I would be keen to hear more from the minister On that Now other members have already commented On the legislation today And Leed Scotland told the committee Despite the existing legislation And expectations and professionals Poor transition experiences Are still regularly reported We do not believe introduced in a new law Can be a silver bullet to overcome The layers of complexity transitions present The truth is The additional legislation As outlined in the bill Will not bring about the changes I feel that the member desires Refer today that with the best will in the world A transition plan is only as meaningful As the resources allocated To back up its delivery And that was also highlighted in evidence To quote the National Autistic Society The success of any strategy Depends on the quality of services Support And education and training options Available in a local authority area So we need to be clear That the Scottish Government's transition strategy Must address resources robustly The reality is It is not a new law we need But a fresh approach That develops a supportive culture and ethos Combined with the resources needed to plan Coordinate and deliver services To close the gaps facing disabled people The Scottish Government must listen carefully To take disabled young people's views Seriously And embed a strategy that works for And with them It also needs to be flexible And that is real empowerment In closing, While I am not convinced of the bill And its current form will meaningfully address this gap It is fantastic to see Cross-party support for the intentions Behind the bill I am grateful to Pam Duncan-Glancy For all her work And the evidence gathered I feel has provided the momentum for changes That must be at the core of the Scottish Government's work In this area Like others, I would also ask That what can be done now As we wait for the full strategy Next year Thank you I commend my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy For her efforts to bring her bill To this important stage And, like my other colleagues Encourage the Government To seriously reconsider their position You know, this is about the general principles Of this bill And the support for that Across the chamber, we can see That people have agreement On the general principles Of this bill I commend my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy For her efforts to bring her bill To this important stage And the general principles Of this bill And that my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy Has made every effort And would continue to make every effort To amend and adapt As we go through other stages And so I suppose I'm starting off From the point of view of so glad To hear the support in this area But disappointed that we can't get this bill It would appear at this stage one Through I know how important This legislation is to Pam Duncan-Glancy She's been a strong campaigner On these issues for many years Working with so many groups Of disabled children and young people To give them a fighting chance Working with their families I was also struck by some of the case studies That we've had And Martin Whitfield used the example From a family saying that This was the most stressful thing That ever happened to them And when you consider that was Had a brain surgery at eight years old And this was more stressful than that So Presiding Officer It is clear to me That parents and young people Do back this bill at this stage Albeit that we may have to make Some amendments But I do believe The bill does provide The opportunity to Move things forward Which is absolutely what we're hearing Things have not moved forward Looking at the contents Of course The members are unquestionably right On that But the issue is that The evidence that the committee heard Is that there will be a difficulty A severe difficulty in the practical implementation So doesn't the member agree that We have to actually get change Rather than just put in place more law That ultimately doesn't deliver What she's absolutely right We have to Like other members Wasn't on the committee But obviously in research in the bill And having been in the Parliament now for two years I don't think there's any piece of legislation That would be easily implemented I think that there is A point that the bill could Place duties in legislation To support and enhance The transition of children and young people And with the willingness of the member To work with people At stage two I think that it is disappointing That we can't get to a point Where we could have a bill Going through this Parliament To try and pull what people are describing As cluttered legislation To a point that we would be delivering For people because that is what we're hearing We're not delivering for people in the ground And I have stated And I do believe this That parents and children And young people have been working With Pam on this bill and this proposal And the current system of support To help develop a transition plan Is unclear And support for parents is lacking Now I worked in this area Over 16 years ago And I remember this For parents and families And this has not changed at all From my research In 16 years So strategies are not working And committees talking To each other are not working But this bill does, in my view, Provide us with an opportunity So for me, why, of course? I'm very grateful of Colin Muckang To give way on this And it is right that the committee decided In fact agreed that the draft law Had already made a difference Highlighting the experiences And also the committee acknowledged The current arrangements for disabled young people Planning their transition to adulthood Cannot be allowed to continue To do that Colin Muckang The intervention leads on to my next point What I've written down Is why When there is an ideal opportunity To put on the table Which would give people that bit of clarity That they desperately seek Around legislative changes That the government is so reluctant To at least try to move to stage 2 If I'm honest with you The Government And I've said it before Is no stranger to a strategy But they are very poor on delivery And that is just the truth of this Parliament And this is an opportunity to do that Of course It's just you're saying that the Government Is not wanting to take this bill to stage 2 But you're clearly hearing Concerns from not just the committee But across the chamber About how this legislation Isn't necessarily the right way forward To do that I thank the minister for the intervention And I think that I have discussed this In this debate Is that I think that stage 1 Provides us with an opportunity And a member actively saying There would be ways In which we could get this legislation To work And that really deep down Is young people, parents and families That are asking us to stop Delaying That we need to try and move things on For people I have so many points that I wanted to make Presiding officers But I think the main point is Young disabled people Do not have a right to a plan Early enough There is little that focuses specifically on them And that there's no statutory duty For the Government to develop a strategy plan For their future And families are saying that it's not working for them We are saying that this has been On and on for years and years and years And I think that this is a missed opportunity To move on to stage 2 Thank you I now call Bill Kidd Around 6 minutes Mr Kidd Thank you very much, Presiding Officer I'm very grateful to have the opportunity To speak in today's debate On my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy's proposed Disabled children and young people Transitions to Adulthood Scotland Bill I'd like to begin by paying tribute To Ms Duncan-Glancy For her work, dedication and undoubtedly heartfelt Interest in the issue Bringing forward a member's bill Is no easy task, as the member Will no doubt attest to However, in many cases, it is the backbone Of the work that we as MSPs can do In this Parliament Only yesterday I was reminded of this When meeting primary 7 pupils From Jordan Hill Primary in my constituency Who I must say could have taught of Is a thing or two about their probing questions One question that particularly stuck In my mind was What had got us into politics And Sandesh Gohame summed it up nicely By saying wanting to effect change On a national level Having the opportunity to change the lives Of many by our work My reply in that of Patrick Harvie Echoed these sentiments And whilst here in this chamber We may often debate without agreement I think that we can all agree Bringing forward legislation That can effect real change Is one of the most rewarding and perhaps demanding Aspects of our positions It might always go as smoothly as we hope But if we can be part of the process of change We should be proud to do this I remember in my colleague Joe Fitzpatrick Introduced a new responsible parking Bill in 2012 To ensure that people in wheelchairs Parents with postchairs, older adults And those with sight loss and other conditions Were able to safely navigate Their way around the streets without fear Of being forced into oncoming traffic When faced with vehicles blocking Their path. The proposed bill Was at the time seen to be Outside the competencies Of this Parliament and was subsequently taken up By my ex-colleague Sandra White However, in 2015 The then Presiding Officer confirmed Our Parliament's lack of powers To pass such a bill Working with the Government They sought to amend the Scotland Act Along with the support of the then Presiding Officer, Lord Dinlop In 2016 a workable bill was reintroduced Only to fall With the ending of that parliamentary term Similar to this situation In the new term work to introduce The legislation continued And it was in 2018 the Government took over The bill as part of its overall Transport Scotland bill And the initial proposals were finally realised And just this autumn The legislation came into effect That was over a decade And I say this not to highlight The seemingly glacial page A pace of new legislation on occasion But to highlight its complexity And how even if at first We are met with roadblocks Pardon the pun By never giving up and by working together Then a member's initial aims Can bear fruit And I hope that whatever happens here This gives confidence to our colleague Who I am sure will continue to champion The multitude of challenges that disabled Children and young people in Scotland face Particularly in relation to transitions To adulthood. I am definite That she will continue to expertly advocate For change and I am sure she can And she will be successful For as we have heard today We all share the member's ambition To improve the experiences and outcomes For disabled young people As they make the transition to young adult life However, as we have also heard There are still a number of issues surrounding The proposals that have been highlighted By the committee and the Government In their response, which means That in its present form the proposed bill Will not be supported sufficiently At this stage of scrutiny However, I can say to the member That this should not be too disheartening Rather it should be seen as in context Part of the process of new legislation A process that she has initiated And should be congratulated for I too am heartened That the Government has agreed To take on her work Has recognised the need for change Stating that the Scottish Government agrees That the current situation in respect Of disabled young people's experiences Of their transitions to adult life Needs to improve And that doing nothing is not an option As a member of the committee And someone with great respect from my colleague I can assure her that I too will press To ensure that her hard work Will lead to positive change Thank you We now move to closing speeches And I call for Paula Cain Around six minutes, Mr Cain I'm very grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, and pleased to be able To close on behalf of Scottish Labour in this very important Debate. I'll begin by referring To my register of interests As a member of Enable Scotland And a former employee I'd like to begin my remarks By paying a warm tribute To my colleague Pamberton Glancy For her work on this bill I have heard across all speeches today Those sentiments Across the chamber from all parts Because bringing a member's bill Can be challenging And I have seen it close quarters This has been a herculean effort Over two and a half years at times For Ms Duncan Glancy And I think as we heard in her opening Today it comes from Not only her personal experience But from her fierce advocacy For other disabled young people And their families Pam Duncan Glancy speaks With an authenticity on these issues And today she takes another step In using her hammer To break the glass ceilings And glass staircases that she said She would when she came into To this place So I think we all do a debt of gratitude To her for her work on this bill I think it's clear Presiding Officer From across the debate today There is a frustration In terms of how we move this whole agenda forward And how we find a way To ensure that transitions for disabled Children and young people become Far more comprehensive Far more easy to manage And indeed we ensure That they are able to move into The sorts of life chances that we would want to see For everyone across Scotland I think we've heard from Several colleagues and I think Carol Mawkin In her contribution That there is a frustration that Non-legislative interventions Aren't working and haven't worked And that there is a sense that there has been resistance Over a long period of time For change to actually happen Indeed I would speak About my own experience of working For Enable Scotland In the learning disability sector In Scotland I had the good fortune Over seven years And for much of that time working on issues like this Particularly Joanne Lamont's bill In the previous session And I would like to take this opportunity To pay tribute to Joanne Lamont's efforts In this regard And also to add that we on this side Of the chamber are particularly proud Of the efforts of our members To really advance these issues And to drive them forward But I think what I saw In my time working In Enable Scotland was conversations That would happen time and time again And they've been recounted across the chamber Of families who felt it was an absolute battle In order just to get The right support services When their young people Were moving into adult life And I met countless families Who were on the brink And found it really, really difficult To be able to have to be a manager Of all of the issues In someone's life as Pam Duncan-Clancy Spoke about in her contribution And Liam Kerr In his contribution I think picked up A number of these issues Not least some of the really stark statistics And Willie Rennie made reference to these as well Enable Scotland I think it's worth Just reflecting on some of these 9 per cent of school leavers Who have aligned disability Progress to university compared with 45 per cent of all school leavers 50 per cent of disabled people in Scotland Are in employment compared to 82 per cent In terms of the overall population And for every £1 that a non-disabled person makes A disabled person earns just 83 pence So we can see some of the really Stark barriers and challenges that exist To young people Who have a disability entering into Into their adult life So I think it's why, crucially These issues are so important And why everyone I think is united In wanting to see change I think it's become apparent And there's no secret that the bill Won't pass at stage 1 And will not enjoy a majority in the chamber And I do think that that is disappointing I want to recognise first of all The issues that have been raised by Other members Particularly from The committee convener Sue Webber and other members of the committee Who have outlined their concerns In terms of wanting more detail In terms of financial memorandum In terms of what the legislation Would seek to do and I think also In terms of the definition of disabled People as outlined by Ruth Maguire Stephanie Callaghan and others I think crucially what we would notice What we would respect Is that the member has been willing At every stage To engage in these issues In a very serious way And has offered to amend this bill In order to find the space To improve those definitions To make them clearer And indeed to investigate And look at more clearly the financial memorandum So I think it comes back to a point That Carol Watkins was making around To resolve respecting that At stage 1 we are asked to agree the general principles And then we can obviously develop the bill At stages 2 and 3 as we go And I'll give way to Liam Kerr on this point I'm reluctant to intervene because I'm enjoying His contribution very much A lot of what the committee Heard wasn't just about the amending Of the legislation, it was from stakeholders Saying the practical implementation On the ground is going to be very difficult If not impossible And I think that that was one of the things That we can do very quickly I thank Liam Kerr for his intervention For his kind words about my contribution But I would I've heard what he says I've heard it throughout my professional life as well And I think it comes back again to the challenge Of the cluttered landscape And I think regardless of Whether this legislation progresses Or not and I think as I've said It's clear it won't We do have to deal with that cluttered landscape And I think that we have been opportunities To deal with that cluttered landscape Are beginning certainly to deal with it And I think that the government have to reflect very clearly On their role in that And I would go back to where I started Because I'm conscious of time But I think that the frustration for many people Is that we should legislate Because it will hold people's feet To the proverbial fire It will force the issue It will make clear that we must have Statutory requirements upon people To deal with some of the barriers And those stark statistics That we saw that I read out At the beginning of my remark So time is against me Deputy Presiding Officer, there's much more I can say But this side of the chamber will support the bill This evening, we pay tribute once again To Pam Duncan-Glancy And whatever happens moving forward from here We as a Parliament must be serious About getting these issues right Because so many young people depend on it Thank you First of all I also pay tribute To Pam Duncan-Glancy Who made Very typical quality Contribution to this debate In her opening speech And the truth is That in our consciences There are none of us in this chamber Who can disagree with the substance Of what Pam Duncan-Glancy said In her speech We are living in a situation Where people in our country Are robbed of hope And that is an untenable situation It really is And to describe The committee's report That we've been referring to Throughout this debate I think quite accurately As a dossier of failure Really does sum up the situation Rather well And I've been I struggle frankly Of yet another strategy There was a piece in the Sunday Times A couple of weeks ago Where some research had been done About the number of strategies And consultations That this SNP Government Have engaged in over the last 10 years And it was something like on average More than one a week And the bulk of those strategies Lie gathering dust On a shelf And have not meant That lives have been improved I was impressed with what Bill Kidd said Because it's also caused me to think Why are we here at all If it is not to improve The lives and the life chances Of our fellow Scots That's got to be why we're here And that's why Willie Rennie was right When he said That our position on this bill Is not a good look Because it looks as if we're saying Something that we're not Saying at all What we're saying is we want real Substantive change We want an end to this idea That we are robbing Scotland's Disabled young people of their hope Because that, as I said earlier Is exactly what we're doing Yes, of course I'm very grateful to Stephen Kerr To give way on that point Does he have confidence that the vehicle exists Within this Parliament To reach where he wants to go Stephen Kerr Legislation isn't always the answer I think I would say to Martin Whitfield It's very tempting To fall into that class of Politician that says Something must be done And the something that must be done Is we have another bill or another law We already have A cluttered landscape That's the phrase that everyone has been reaching for this afternoon Of legislation as things stand What we need Is a change of culture A change of approach Because as an example quoted earlier I think in relation to the visit we made to Cotebridge Where agencies Government, different levels of government Different functions of government Third sector, businesses All working together Putting at the centre of their concern In activity the needs Of that disabled young person And giving them Opportunities That I think Strikingly concluded her remarks By talking about what Scotland is losing What we are all losing Because of our inability To create an equality Of opportunity for young people Who are disabled Robbing us of that talent Is not just a social loss It's not just a personal loss For the individual concerned But it's an economic loss as well And we cannot ignore the situation So when I hear the minister Say That it will be the end of next year Before we can publish a strategy I'm alarmed at that And I think It was maybe Ruth Maguire again So we can't wait surely for another year Before we see this sort of strategy And the intent of action And outcome that ought to be Burdened on that strategy And I'm afraid that I go back to that Sunday Times article I'm afraid this will be kicked down the road I'm afraid this will be Another one of the Five, six hundred Strategies that this Government has produced In the last ten years That does nothing for anyone And doesn't improve anyone's Life experience Having listened to the evidence That was presented to the committee When I had the privilege of serving on it I can say that it's heart-rending And then we've all got constituents Who have also had this experience Where It is draining For the parents They don't have anywhere to go to They don't have a single point of Help, they don't have someone to look to They are left often As almost a full-time task To be looking out for Their son or their daughter And they would anyway But it's a struggle And our responsibility as Parliamentarians Is to find a way to lessen The struggle and ease the way And maximise the equality Of opportunity that should exist Now, I'm recognising the amount of time And I haven't even referred to my Prepared remarks, Deputy If you're saying, officer, but I I'm mindful of the time I thought that Liam Kerr Gave a first-class speech This afternoon Because my colleague With his forensic skills To define exactly why it is That we will not be able to support This stage 1 bill And frankly, it is For the very simple reason That the intentions, the outcomes That are desired are all honourable I cannot speak highly enough Of Pam Duncan-Glass, whose impact On this Parliament is quite remarkable In the two and a half years That we have all been here And I congratulate her on that And to be able to dislodge this Government To move in the right direction Now, something has been started By Pam Duncan-Glancy And those of us who are in this chamber At the moment, those of us, especially Who have spoken in this debate Have a responsibility to see that something happens Because that was the essence Of Liam Kerr's speech Something has to change And another strategy And another tick-box exercise Is not going to cut it And with that, I will conclude my remarks On Natalie Dawn Minister Around seven minutes, please Thank you, Presiding Officer And thank you to all the members Who have contributed during this debate I think it's very clear that there's cross-party Consensus that we should do everything we can To improve the experience of transitions To adulthood for disabled young people With transitions to adulthood Sometimes, as has been done In the chamber today, being described as a cliff edge It's clear that the current situation In respect of disabled young people's Experiences of their transition Needs absolutely needs to improve And as stated earlier, I'm very grateful For the evidence that has been provided To the committee as it brought together At stage 1 report, and I can assure The chamber that we are absolutely alive To some of the concerns raised within that And the concerns raised in the chamber today Now, I've already stated But we are committed to improving The transitions experiences of disabled Young people, and while I've clearly Heard the whole chamber agrees With the aims of the bill, I agree With the committee and the many stakeholder groups That the bill itself is not the best way To deliver on those aims Now, I want to respond to some of the Comments that have been made during today's debate Now, Willie Rennie asks, and sorry others Since have asked if we are doing anything To clear the landscape, and yes We've stated very clearly in the statement of intent That we want a strategy that can complement And help bring a more co-ordinated And joined up approach to this broad landscape So that young people, their families And practitioners who support them Are better able to navigate it One way of doing this is through our Cross policy working group to ensure That our policies are better joined up We've also provided funding to ARC To develop Compass to help young families And practitioners navigate those transitions More smoothly, and going forward Transitions planning and support Should be person centred, responding Flexibly to the unique needs And aspirations of each young person Pam Duncan Glancy asked about similarities Between who would be covered by the bill And what I would say is that while the statement of intent Does propose the equality act definition of disability It does not require a diagnosis While the bill is drafted does And we've heard the concerns raised Around this today Now the non-statutory nature of the strategy Does not impose transitions plans On young people who do not need or want them Or does it explain how local authorities Would identify disabled young people To fulfil its duties Concerns have also rightly been raised today By possibly every member who has contributed About what we are doing now How are young disabled people going to benefit Prior to the publication of the strategy And this Government is taking forward Work to improve transitions Because we've heard loud and clearly The voices of those who have told us That more needs to be done We've supported the association for real change Scotland's principles into practice programme And the purpose of this is to improve The lived experiences of young people Who need additional support to make The transition to young adult life And to ensure young people are at the centre Of planning for their future We've committed a further two years of funding To the association for real change Through the children, young people, families And adult learners third sector fund To continue this work alongside Supporting other projects We also continue to support the independent living fund Scotland's transition fund To assist young disabled people To make a smoother transition From childhood to adulthood By promoting independence, community participation Social inclusion and confidence And since 2017, more than £10 million Has been awarded to more than 5,000 young people In October, yes Thank you for taking the intervention And I realise time is short All of those initiatives including The independent living fund are welcome The bill though doesn't undo any of that It just provides a statutory underpinning To keep all of that going so that Another minister can't come and undo it Minister I thank the member for the intervention And that's not what I'm arguing here I think we've clearly heard today The concerns raised around the bill specifically I'm just answering members' comments Around what we are doing now Ahead of the publication of the strategy Next year So we continue to, sorry In October 2023, we published Are getting it right for every child Child's plan practice statement And this includes new guidance for transitions Which outlines that particular consideration Should be given to disabled children And young people The GERFEC child's plan can be used To have time Stephen Kerr I thank the minister for giving way All of those words that are being used By the minister are very commendable They're lovely words But there's a question about resources So what is being described as often a function That will have to be carried out by local authorities With the strategy And with all of the intentions that are being described By the minister, will there be funding? Minister, I'll give you the time back That is something that will be worked at I can't confirm that today The member will appreciate that In terms of how much funding will be available For that, but that is something that will be worked out As co-ordination of the strategy Is developed So, sorry, to continue Building on GERFEC best practice The Scottish Government is also currently co-designing Getting it right for everyone With place-based pathfinder teams across Scotland For people from young adulthood To end-of-life care And through GERFEC and GERFEE We are absolutely committed to improving transitions Between children's and adult services For disabled children and young people We've also continued to provide Am I able to get the time back? I can give you a bit of that time back as well, minister Pam Duncan-Glancy, briefly I thank the minister for taking the intervention Can the minister explain then why The groups of disabled people's organisations Walked away from the GERFEC Strategy group that they were on because they didn't believe It was delivering for them? I'm sorry to hear that That is the case, as I say We're taking out a range of actions But we appreciate that we absolutely need to go further And that will, as I say, be a result Of the proposed strategy So, we've continued to provide funding To enable stepping up transitions programme Which connects disabled young people To fair work, education and productive activities Designed to support a successful transition Into adult life and work And we're committed by 2026 To helping all school leavers Access to transition support They need to achieve their potential And ensuring young people can further their education Or secure a job or training place We've implemented developing the young workforce School coordinators across all 32 local authorities And we will be doing more We're supporting improved implementation Of existing statutory duties For planning under the additional support for learning legislation We're also working with local government partners To deliver the additional support for learning action plan By the end of this parliamentary term Actions include updating the transition programme And stating the transition planning advice Within our statutory guidance And improving the information being provided To young people and their parents On accessing their rights The feedback we've heard through this process Will directly inform the delivery of this work And will help to ensure that transition planning Happens more consistently And at an early enough stage And of course, we're bringing to work forward Scotland's first national transition To adulthood strategy Which we aim to publish by the end of 2024 And understand the member and many others' concerns On how we know this will make the change That we all want to see when actions of the past Haven't necessarily gotten us where we want to be This strategy will be subject to robust And regular monitoring and review To ensure that it delivers on its intended aims And remains in focus I commit today to making the strategy Available to Parliament So that it can benefit from the scrutiny And input from the collective expertise Of members from across the chamber To that end I want to again recognise the work done in this bill By Pam Duncan-Glancy And reiterate our commitment, my commitment To working closely with her As we develop the strategy Presiding Officer, each of us in this chamber Shares the same goal of improving the lives Of disabled children and young people in Scotland And this debate has really highlighted Where progress needs to be made This government is resolutely committed To delivering that progress And we will work collaboratively With those inside and outside the chamber In doing so By working together we can ensure That all disabled young people Making the transition to adulthood in Scotland Are empowered to achieve their full potential Thank you, minister I now call on Pam Duncan-Glancy To wind up the debate I'd be grateful, Ms Duncan-Glancy If you could take us to just before five o'clock Please To start by thanking members Across the chamber for their contributions This afternoon and for their kind words Especially my colleagues on these benches Paul O'Cain, Carol Mawkin And Martin Whitfield And crucially I'd like to thank everyone In the gallery and all of the organisations Who've reached out to me in support And to contribute to this bill And the campaign for it to succeed I know you have waited a lifetime For change in this area And it was my honour to take your fight To this Parliament This afternoon I and other colleagues On the Labour benches and others Across the chamber have highlighted The human impact that inaction The inaction that my colleague Ruth Maguire And others have pointed out Is having on the lives of disabled people Right across the country Because the reality is Disabled people are being failed On almost every front And they have been for years Willie Rennie said earlier I sincerely hope we're not Because I have been here before But I suspect we might be I gave evidence to the education committee On this in 2005 We were here then and we're here now There is no denying That what's in place right now isn't working The lived experience and the stats Make that clear And from what I've heard today I'm confident most colleagues agree With the general principles of what I'm proposing Despite any disagreement on the final detail Of the final vote difficult to reconcile With what they've heard members say At hazard I guess that some members May face a similar difficulty So let me remind colleagues In this stage 1 debate it is the general principle Of the legislation we're discussing And it's not too late to support it Presiding Officer let me now address some of the issues And contributions from colleagues Firstly thank you again For the kind words about the bill Especially to Stephen Kerr Who really moved me in his contribution But this really isn't about me This is actually too late for me This is about all the other disabled people Who came after me and who will come after me This can be a lonely place Fighting for disabled people's rights And fighting in this Parliament I welcome the contribution from Sue Webber On behalf of the committee And particularly the bit on ensuring the strategy Does not sit on the shelf I gently remind members That as we sit no strategy is developed So it's not reached the printer Let alone the shelf Stephanie Callaghan, Ross McCall Both spoke of social justice And I know the passion that those members have For this issue I welcome the contribution from Liam Kerr Recognising the issues of data We need to monitor this Shine the light in the dark corners And I hope we can do that together But Presiding Officer among the welcome Recognition of these issues There are some conclusions disabled people The colloquialism in Glasgow That we often use when people have been Tire-simily repeating themselves And it's this, heard it Sadly, I think that's how many disabled people In their families will feel today On the definition used in the bill Oh how we've heard this before Defining a disability has long since Been a bugbear of the disability movement And of policy makers We almost have to have a crisis of identity Of disabled people We're expected to convince employers we're fine But we're not I've always said this was about disabled people I was unapologetic about that And that's why I use the equality act definition As the government do And I said on the record, and I'd say it again For what it's worth now, I would amend And take out the bit about diagnosis On the financial memorandum We've heard this too, we're always too expensive That's why I worked hard to get the costings right I took the committee's request To look again at the figures I and a small team of four people Worked tirelessly With trade unions, COSLA And ADES to update the figures I wrote to the committee with these updates I couldn't present a financial memorandum Because I can't do that until stage 2 And on this I have to say It looks a bit like the government's holding me to higher standard Than it holds itself I've asked in parliamentary questions How much the government spends on transitions And I was told they can't extrapolate it Conversely, I worked tirelessly To cost the bill, as best I could Because I do not want to shortchange services Or local government I presented and represented updated figures But the government can't tell us what their approach will cost I'd also say That what we face ahead of us Is not or certainly should not be A decision of cost neutral Or even paying for failure From the government Or costly from my bill The reality is, supporting disabled people To enjoy their human rights costs money Can I also remind members That the national audit office said Good support can save a million pounds Per person This is investment that would save money In the longer term And I will always fight for that On the question from Liam Kerr and Stephen Kerr And others on how it could be implemented Carol Mawkin was absolutely right It will be hard It always is But that's never stopped Carol, Mawkin Or I, or my party Or disabled people or their families My gran once told me That hard work wasn't easy And easy work's hard to find I seemed to find it pretty easy To find hard work And I really do appreciate members' support For the work that I put in to the bill And families And organisations have too And particularly the contribution today From Bill Kid And my colleague Stephen Kerr asked How it will change lives And the minister and others have said I attempted to address that in my opening speech Suffice to say again The child's plan is not in statute And will not be There are no legal rights in this space And it's not just me who said this The law society said That significant improvement is unlikely Without legislative measures Colleges Scotland said What's unique is that this is an actual bill So there is a right to it But there is also a framework for parents And young people to work in That they welcome the potential introduction Of legal duties The rights and opportunities of young people Should not be left to chance Or rest on their luck Or having a carer or parent Who has the resources, tenacity, energy and time To keep going and fighting The reality is, just now that's what's happening And it isn't working So I asked the Government and other members If not this bill Then what? Disabled people are sick and tired of the rights It's for them that I am here today So let me use my closing moments to say this I brought this bill Because young disabled people have been let down For far too long As my colleague Paul O'Kane said Families have been on the brink Left stranded without the support they need Denied their dreams and aspirations And set up to fail Without the significant change I'm proposing today Thousands I fear Will be failed in generations to come Presiding Officer, I came here today Under no illusions of the scale of the challenge Change for disabled people Is possible But history Especially recent history tells us It's also glacial I have known for some time that the Government Were unlikely to fix the law in this area Nonetheless I remain hopeful And because I'm an optimist I still am To my MSP colleagues today I say this You have a responsibility to stand up for people Who are underrepresented and who need you the most Please use that responsibility well The world is watching Do the right thing History will remember To the Minister I say How will you be accountable How will the Government measure success And how will the Government change things Those are the measures by which we And disabled people will hold you And to everyone in the gallery All of the organisations have reached out to me In support and to contribute to this bill And to disabled people and their families I say this I know you've waited for a change In this area for a lifetime I know some of what you'll have heard today Will be disappointing For as long as I have the privilege to sit In this place Your fight will be my fight I will not rest until your children And your children's children have the opportunity To flourish in the land of opportunity We know Scotland can be Because I made a promise that when I got elected I would put the ladder Out for other disabled people to follow And make sure you have a fighting chance At a future and I will do that To close I and my party will again Vote for change today I'm sad that others might not But rest assured colleagues Tomorrow the fight for a fighting chance Goes on We'll hold the Government to account for the change They promise every day And I'll do that every day I'm here Because everyone needs it Thank you Thank you very much Mr Duncan Glancy That concludes the debate on disabled children And young people transitions To adulthood Scotland bill at stage 1 It's now time to move on to the next item of business And the next item of business Is consideration of a business motion Double one four one six In the name of George Adam On behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau On a stage 2 extension Any member who wishes to speak against the motion Should press the request to speak button now I call on the Minister to move the motion Thank you Presiding Officer and moved Thank you No member has asked to speak against the motion Therefore the question is that Motion double one four one six be agreed Are we all agreed? That is agreed We now turn to decision time There is one question to be put as a result of today's business The question is that Motion double one three eight one In the name of Pam Duncan Glancy On disabled children and young people To adulthood Scotland bill at stage 1 Be agreed Are we all agreed? Parliament is not agreed There will be a division There will be a short suspension to allow members To access the digital voting system