 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Global Connections. We're gonna ask whether this means this being the war in Israel, whether it means the end of life on the Kibbutz. And for this discussion, we have Karl Ackerman. He's an educator and historian and he has spent time on Kibbutzim. So we have to ask him about life on Kibbutzim and his generation and what it means in the current situation. Welcome to the show, Karl. Thanks for coming down. Oh, Jay, always a pleasure to you to mention you. So Karl, tell us about your life on the Kibbutzim. A lot of people, a lot of Americans have spent a little time on the Kibbutzim because it's such an ideal way of spending life. It sort of clears your head somehow and it makes you understand the relationship of the people and agriculture and the soil and making the desert bloom. There is nothing so satisfying as making the desert bloom. Tell us about your experience. Well, Jay, I was at Kibbutzorah, which is, I would say maybe five or six miles, maybe a little bit longer outside of Jerusalem. And as you have mentioned to me in a previous conversation, of course, most Kibbutzim are at the pearl of Kibbutz are agricultural nature. My particular Kibbutz was actually had agricultural crops growing, but also was produced livestock, and in this case, turkeys. And in addition, there was a factory that was worked in by both Palestinians in Israel and Jews in Israel, very friendly times. And they made both chairs, chairs for offices, et cetera, and scooters, bicycle scooters. I think they attached motors to bicycles. And of course, the Kibbutz, every single Kibbutz has people on it that are predominantly very well educated. Most of them believe in some form of socialism. The Kibbutz movement in Israel, most people are very, as I said, liberal to the left. And they believe even in Palestinian state, and most of the people. And it's sort of like socialism and on a small scale come to Israel, although as Kibbutzim have progressed from the early part of the 20th century to the current period, most of them believe now in capitalist principles, but for example, at Zorah, the factory that all the profits would be shared communally with the people on the Kibbutz, and also people who were not living on the Kibbutz, primarily Palestinians. But it was an example of just a wonderful place to live. And because of reparations from Germany, they had a fleet of like BMWs that one can drive communally. And originally, all the kids would eat together, not in their family house and their family apartments, but they would eat together and sometimes sleep together. But by the time I got there in the early 80s, kids were returning to their own apartments and things like this. It was an absolutely delightful experience and because, I don't know, they picked me out, maybe because I was Jewish, because there are a lot of volunteers from all over the world. One of my best friends was a German woman and another good friend was an English man. And they took me with what we call the Sabra, the indigenous Israelis, and we took care of turkeys. And that meant going into the Turkey cages, and turkeys were sold primarily for exports, and you'd have to basically take a shower before you went in and a shower when you came out three times a day because you didn't want to give the turkeys germs and you didn't want them to give you germs. And so it was very, I was never so showered. And here's the story I wanted to tell you, Jay, and I'll have other stories, but we're gonna go on to more serious topics, is one day I was out and I was near the cages and I was just, it was so hot. And so I went into the sprinkling system near the cages and all my Israeli friends broke up in laughter because I was getting wet and I was just saying, hey, what's wrong with you guys? Don't you like to get wet? It's hot. They said, Carl, but it's non-potable water. So I was having my little bath with sewer water. Ah, the Israelis. Yeah, they're fun. They're very alive, the Israelis. But I recall a couple of things that I wanna confirm with you. Number one is, yes, a lot of the kibbutzim are agricultural and that is one reason why the produce in Israel that exported from Israel is so good. You wanna look for an orange. Wow, they got the best oranges ever. And I remember yogurt, which is also a product of some of those kibbutzim. The yogurt is world-class, best yogurt ever. And that goes for a lot of agricultural production in the kibbutzim. The other thing I want to remember with you is that they are in remote places. A friend of mine lives in a kibbutz and it's in a remote place. And if you use Google Maps, I'm not sure Google Maps is available right now in the context of this war, but at the time it was available, the time I looked and I could essentially drive down the road on Google Maps and it was really remote. There was nothing there and it was in the middle of the desert. And they made the desert bloom around the kibbutz. It was green and productive and so forth and full of props. But to get there, you had to go through the desert and you can see miles of scrap land. So then finally, my recollection is that a lot of these kibbutzim, not only being in remote places, they are near the border. And they're there for, I guess, a reason way back even before the War of Independence since 1948. They were put there so that it demarks the border. As a lot of things in Israel attempt to demark the border. So this puts them in a position of vulnerability because if you're near the border, then people come over the border and they want to attack you. And in fact, the kibbutz that I'm talking about was built in the 20s and the 30s and it was underground. It was built underground for safety. People lived, slept, ate, worked underground for many years and even to this day, some of the facilities in the kibbutz are underground. Now I imagine that some of the kibbutzim and the life on the kibbutz has changed. It's become more family oriented rather than have the children play with each other and eat and sleep with each other. I thought that was really charming and it created a tremendous social experience. I think in many ways it defines the Israeli personality, at least the personality off the kibbutz because they're so open and they got that way by dealing shoulder to shoulder with other kids and not necessarily their parents, parents can be impressive. And so here they had some time with their parents but they also had time with the community. And I think it's changed. I think it's more middle class, their homes are more middle class, more, you know, more again, more vulnerable. And that's what happened in those communities, South of Ashkelon where they were attacked on October 7th, hardly. So here we, and right now, those kibbutzim South of Ashkelon have been evacuated. There's nobody there. And even if there were somebody there, they'd been essentially destroyed. Those who attacked them burned them down, shot everything up, you know, did everything they could to destroy. Not only the people and the children and the grandparents but the community itself, the physical community. And so it's kind of a message, isn't it? That if you live in a community like that, a kibbutz, even a modern day kibbutz, there isn't a whole lot to protect you. I recall one story on Israeli TV. I don't think this was on non-Israeli TV because there has been a major differentiation over the past several days about what you see on Israeli TV and what you see on cable, different, not the same. But this was the story of a family that somehow survived. And how did they survive? They had an armored room in their home and it was the children's room. And the idea is that in the case of an attack, an emergency, the children would stay put and the parents would go into the children's room and lock the door, which was all strengthened. And they survived. It was quite remarkable that they survived. And that's the way they achieved some level of security. So the question I put to you, Carl, I mean, I know that in the ideal, in the historic, in the theoretical concept of a keyboard, it's a beautiful idea, beautifully implemented for many years. Now you have to wonder. I mean, there's one piece I saw on Israeli TV where they said, you know, our kids will never be the same because they're always going to be looking around to see if some Arab with a machine gun pops up, you know, walk them all. He's there, he's there, he's there. And so these kids get a little paranoid, maybe a lot paranoid, that there'll be an attack on them as they are on the keyboards. So my question to you is, is the model of the keyboards, where it's located, how it functions, how it protects itself, is it still viable? You know, I would say a short answer is not in the current situation of the way they're set up. There has to be much more security. Because do I think the, probably the number of, keep it same in Israel, or it's close to about 220 with roughly about 125,000 people, will they, will people not go back them? I think they will go back them up, but I think there will be heavy security. I remember in Los Angeles I was intrigued by a school, a Jewish school called Heschel West, and they had actual Israeli guards around the school, especially after 9-11 and after there had been attacks by terrorists on Jewish schools. And I think that will become, I think the security consciousness of this will be much higher. But I think that the impulse to have this kind of shared experience that really replicates the early, before Israel was even born into the early 20th century notion of the keep it same, were so strong that perhaps it will survive. In addition, it's often the keep it same graduates, the kids that grow up and become really elite members of the Israeli defense forces. They've worked so hard. They go from their, like the old farmers in the Midwest of the United States, they go from the farm into the classroom. And I think, and I'm projecting here greatly, Jay, so forgive me for this, but I think that there's a really wonderful school system that's begun in Israel over the past like 20 years. And it's called hand in hand. And what the school district, what these schools do when they're spreading throughout Israel, is they train Jews, Arabs and Palestinians together in their education. So they become friends. They have shared experiences. They know all three languages. And the only solution, long-term to a lot of some of the problems that we've seen with Hamas, I think is just kind of education. More if there's education like that in the keep it same, I think this would all be great. Now, let me just make a few comments about what we recently saw on one keep it. So it says that, as I see demonstrations across the Arab world, I mean, I understand people's concern about other people, but I think one has to recognize that this all began with Hamas and its complete utter depravity and it's killing of innocent people. And killing of innocent people who are for a Tuesday solution I may add, including the Peace Festival. I mean, what in the world? And I think what we need is before people in the Arab world go out and demonstrate, which I think demonstrations are good and they're concerned about the people in Gaza. I think that's all well and good, but they first have to condemn what happened. They have to say, look, this is terrible. These leaders do not represent us. And of course they were demonstrating this in different parts of the Arab world. And I think that's the great mistake that people have to be humane and they have to really consider why this all began. And, but going back to the original question, what attracted me about Zorah in particular is that they had a bomb shelter. Well, when there wasn't a war going on or any kind of people would go down there and dance, which I did before I was married. And there were these young, beautiful Israeli women who were my age and they were all in green fatigues and they put down their oozees and they danced. And I thought, isn't this wonderful to have such strong women here who are fighting in the IDF and can do so many multiple things that are truly equal to men. And that was just wonderful. And it was, isn't it nice to go when you were finished with work during the day, you went to the cafeteria and you were served really good food and you didn't have to make it. I mean, it was sort of like a really idyllic experience. And it was, you lived, I mean, you had your own separate apartment but you lived communally with a lot of other people. It was kind of, you know, to restore the neighborhood because your neighbors are all part of your kibbutz next. They're your fellow travelers in life. Anyway, I spoke too much, Jay. I'm sure you have other questions though. No, but it reminds me of my own experience as a kid or I went to a Jewish Federation camp in the Catskills every summer and it was run like that. It was a community experience and it was really one of the best experiences I've had. And it's the kibbutz experience you had, it's similar. One of the best life experiences you ever had in dealing with people and being close to them and in sharing and in, you know, finding the sort of common humanity this common love of life, that's what it is. So, you know, there were 19,000 people every day that entered Israel from the Gaza Strip. And my guess is that they were working in the kibbutz communities, one job or another. And it was a source of cash for them. They go home in the evening and bring home the cash and there are not a lot of jobs in Gaza. So, this was really a benefit. That's not gonna happen anymore, okay? You also talk about the fact that not everybody in the kibbutz is Jewish. Some of them are not, some of them are Europeans. Some of them are Arabs. And more and more over the years, you know, the mix of Jews and Arabs has increased as there are more Arabs living in Jewish communities. And I suppose you could say there are more Jews in Arab communities so I'm really not sure of that. Bottom line is that the diversity of the kibbutz life, at least up to a point, was valuable. And just as in my summer camp, you know, there was diversity there. And so you got to meet people who were not necessarily on the same page. So, a great democratic experience, no surprise that it creates liberal thinkers. No surprise that it creates critical thinkers. No surprise that it creates some people who wanna see the best things happen in the world for humanity, no surprise that. But query, you know, would you go back now given the danger? And let me identify the danger I'm talking about. This, you know, a lot of people say that this war we have now was lost on October 7th when we found that they were able to do what they did, the massacres. It was so horrible that nothing Israel could do could actually make up for that. No matter how vengeful Netanyahu felt and no matter what language he used, it was already a disaster on October 7th. Never, ever to be forgotten. Like 9-11, but worse for a smaller country like that. And so this changes the way things work. Some people say that the end of this war, Netanyahu has to go, not only for his political machinations but also, you know, for his lack of security for all these outlying areas, like the ones that were attacked on October 7th. And things will change. You know, every war brings change. We had a show earlier today where World War II changed the way the British civil service works. It was not so good before the war, Second World War, but after it was way better. It sort of had to clean itself up. It had to change. It had to reform. It had to be more efficient, okay? And the same thing here. I suggest to you that Israel will change hopefully soon. Hopefully the end of this war will come soon. Hopefully the end of this war will allow the survival of Israel. And that's not entirely certain with all these various attacks from various fronts. But let's assume after the war, we take another look. We look at the way Israel is configured. We look at the way these Kibbutzim and agricultural communities are structured. We look at the way security is done. I mean, those places that were attacked were still open. There was really very little security there. There was nobody standing around with a gun and swarmed to defend those kids, those people. And they didn't. And it was such an easy target. That can't happen again. Certainly we have to have security. Anyone, any rational human being would have to have security because the success of the attack on October 7th begets the possibility that it will happen again. Anything like that, if it's successful, it's a lesson to the people who did it. Yes, they can do that. Yes, it can happen again. And so I'd be very worried if I lived on or had the opportunity to live on a Kibbutz and I would want to have lots of security. But security costs money. To have somebody stand around with a gun or a tower with binoculars, what have you or set up some kind of radar system to watch people coming out of Gaza or any other border area? That costs money. It costs money in terms of the labor and it costs money in terms of the equipment. And it costs something else too. It costs vigilance. Vigilance, let me go on record. Vigilance costs money. Vigilance is expensive and vigilance taxes you. You know that carefree time in the bomb shelter where you were dancing and you put your Uzi down and all that. And it's over. You can't do that anymore. Vigilance makes for a different kind of life. So to the extent my view, and I'm interested in yours of course, my view is the model that we have been describing of a Kibbutz cannot exist going forward. This is such a tremendous loss. It's a loss in terms of the agricultural production. It's a loss in terms of the education and the human graduates that come out of Kibbutz. It's a loss of the Israeli attitude. You know, the special Israeli qualities of creativity and focus and all that that you always see in every Israeli. So Israel has to lose that. It cannot continue this way. It's simply too expensive on a human level and on an economic level. Your thoughts? Well, Jay, I think that some of the policing and some of the, I mean, Israel has really become a tech giant. And so maybe that can happen. And as I said, what I would like to see coming out of this is the Kibbutz movement uniting with hand in hand and really becoming centers of cooperation between Jews and Arabs and Palestinians. And they're very successful in doing this in hand in hand. I think it's a long time, it takes families to trust one another, but I think that's one thing. Second of all, I wanted to mention today because I was able to watch the president's speech. And again, which was first illuminated on this program between you and me, we talked about the Biden doctrine. And once again, Joe Biden is advocating for democracy, hence his money for Ukraine and also Israel at the same time. He does not want to put American lives at stake. It boots on the ground. That's number two. And number three, he talked about anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, which is the third pillar of the Biden doctrine, which is against suggesting that there's no room in America for any form of hatred, especially against an ethnic group, et cetera, et cetera. But I want to return to Hawaii for a second. When I took my Kibbutz by tour, I was sponsored by the Jewish Federation. And I want to mention one school in particular, Eolani school, allowed me to go. The assistant headmaster, there was a guy named Charlie Proctor who put the Jewish holidays on the, you know, and of course, Eolani is a Episcopalian on the calendar. He allowed me to come back to school a couple of weeks late, which no, other teachers are going, hey, where's Akraba? And, you know, it was such a wonderful thing. And, you know, it's, as we were talking about, you know, you with your education and Jewish summer camps, in my experience on the Kibbutz, you know, it's such a wonderful thing. And I really thought that I was working for a man who was very generous. I mean, he's a long retired Charlie Proctor, but, you know, what a wonderful school. And I always felt with the leadership of the time who was an Episcopal minister named David Kuhn, I always felt that that school was a school, you know, that, you know, to use the phrase about the righteous gentiles, not gentiles, but righteous gentiles, they were really quite wonderful. And, you know, I didn't sense, you know, an ounce of anti-Semitism. I thought that people were very pro-diversity at that school. And, you know, now it's that school, as you and I talked about, that's offering, you know, one of the first African-American studies classes through Russell Modder. But anyway, I wanted to point out that the Jew, my trip was only possible with the help of the Jewish community here, the Jewish Federation. I think this was before that wonderful program that allows young people to go to Israel. I'm trying to remember the name of it, I don't know why I'm forgetting it right now. And also because of the really generous Charlie Proctor and the Yolani school, I'm so grateful to Yolani for that experience. I want to go back and answer my own question. My question was, you know, can we still have Kibbutzim? I think we can. Or is it over? Okay, and I think there'd be a lot of people that would say it's over, forget about it. On the other hand, there are some real benefits in maintaining the community art form. And I'll tell you what I think. Number one is that the Israelis were right to put them in remote areas and make the desert bloom. Remote areas along the borders and demonstrate that yes, you can make the desert bloom. I think the Israelis were right in putting them together in a social experience and having everybody benefit by the experience and the education involved in creating a group of people that had strengths and sensitivity. And I don't think that Israel wants to lose that. I don't think Israel wants to lose the agricultural production. I think, as you said, Israel has the ability technologically to defend itself on these Kibbutzim. Maybe some of them have to go more underground. Some of them have to have more sophisticated sensors to determine if there are people who are coming to attack them. And of course, they have to have weapons. And they have to have people who are the soldiers who are sworn to defend them in the case of an attack. But it's part, I think, of the Israeli character to have these Kibbutzim. Even if there are fewer of them, or fewer of them, I suggest that it's worth it for the government to have that. It's also, and I guess this is my larger point, it's a statement of resilience. Yes, you blew us up north of Gaza. You killed 1,400 people in the most awful and humane way. But we're here, we're here, we're alive. We believe in our own culture. We believe in being liberal and open. We believe in educating our kids and having this kind of communal life, which is so productive together, and so nutritious together, which is such a part of Israel. We're not giving it up. And come watch, come watch as we show you our resilience. What do you think? I think you hit a red on the head. And it reminds me of what my mother recently passed said about when you toast, you know, Jews toast to Lahime, you know, to life. Most people say to your health, but you know, Jews say to life. And as you just pointed out, I mean, this proves to the entire world, the people would seem that life will continue, Israelis will remain strong and vibrant. And they'll make the desert bloom, which I'm quoting you here, which is just a beautiful, what a wonderful concept, you know, make the desert bloom. Yeah, and the other aspect is it's more dangerous life in Israel, in the cities also. It's more dangerous, but it's the price you pay to be Israeli, to be in the Israeli democracy, the Israeli society, the Israeli culture, to be a Jew in Israel, you pay a price of safety, or maybe not so safe as it was. And I think to survive in their hearts, they have to do this. Well, okay, Carl, that was a great discussion. Thank you so much for coming on. You have any final words you want to leave with people? How should the people of Hawaii see this? I mean, I think that was a great story about Iolani and, you know, your trip. But what would you leave with the people in Hawaii who are watching this show and trying to understand how life was in Israel on the Kibbutzim? I think that they, you know, as my uncle-in-law did, I think they should go and visit, you know, when things are calmer, they should go and visit Israel and see, you know, it's a place of many religions. And to experience, you know, you talk about your tour going to different Kibbutzim, I think that's a great way to see Israel. And for those of Jewish ancestors, remember the name of the program, it's called Birthright, that my nieces went to and one of my daughters is too old for it now, but I'm urging my other daughter to go on Birthright, you know, to kind of explore what Israel means. And I think by traveling there, seeing that, you know, Jay, you're always amazed by the geography because you're so close to everything, you know. It's not like you have a big buffer like you're going across, you know, the giant Midwest or the Buffalo realm. I mean, you know, it's, you know, the size of one of the, you know, Easter small, you know, like Rhode Island, you know, or Connecticut, you know, I mean, it's like, there's not much land there. And so, you know, it's a very small, but important place. And, you know, I guess I would come back to what our president said. And, you know, we have to, in Hawaii and in the rest of the United States, make sure that we try to bring tensions down I think hopefully at some point, there'll be both the state of Israel and a Palestinian state. And my hope is, my hope, long-term hope, is that Palestinians and Jews will create some great economic sphere so that there'll be brothers and arms for the rest and sisters in arm, I should say, not to be just male, you know, for the future. That's my hope. It's possible, but it's not that close, I think, because, you know, the Palestinians don't want any part of the Jews and they can't live with the Jews. And it's very hard for people to work together if they hate each other, and especially the Palestinians who are sworn to hate and raised to hate. You know, and remember Hamas, you know, the Constitution, if you will, the founding documents of Hamas state in so many words that they're dedicated to destroying the state of Israel. Likewise, Iran, dedicated to destroying the state of Israel and every last Jew. I don't know how people can live that way, but certainly it's not healthy. Go ahead. I think there are Israeli Palestinians who will live differently, and I think that the people in hand-in-hand, that's why I'm very hopeful. I mean, if people want to put their money in hand-in-hand, it's really wonderful. It's the hand-in-hand schools where Palestinians, Jews, and Arabs get along, you know, as they, you know, I mean, if you live in a community in the United States and there's Jews and there's Arabs, and you know, some of the biggest proponents of non-hatred against Islam are Jewish people and same with Islamic people against anti-Semite stuff. You know, you just have to have a thriving economic community, as we say, no more of this misogas, this craziness. Yeah, well, let me add one thought. That there are a number. I mean, what is it, roughly two million Arabs living within eight million people in Israel? Okay, six million Jews. And if they go to school, they get to be doctors, lawyers, the Arabs, and they participate in the economy, and they get along. And they belong to the same business organizations, social organizations. But it's not enough. It's a question of degree. And then you also want them to speak out and say, I'm happy with my life here in Israel. I'm happy that I got to go to school and become a professional, become a successful businessman. You guys, please watch me. I'm a good example of that fact. We can do this. How about stopping with the attacks? Five wars, and it was always that Palestinians attacked the Jews every time. So the other thing is tourism. And that is that, you know, this is certainly going to help. Herty Israeli economy to have 360,000, you know, citizen citizen troops on the border for how long? It's already 13, 14 days. And we can't go on like this and still have an economy in Israel. We've got to send them back to their jobs. And so this is really damaging. I don't think it means the same, you know, in Arab communities and Palestinians, they don't have jobs anyway. They don't have businesses in these places. But these, all these, you know, young soldiers have jobs in businesses, in cities and what, and kibbutzim. And so we really have to get them back into the economy soon. Anyway, I wanted to say that you have you have tourism. People come from all over the world have come from all over the world to observe and participate in the Israeli miracle. Okay, and and their tourists. And it's a great experience. I mean the Christian community in this country you know, sends an enormous number of tourists to Israel so they can see the holy places, the holy Christian places. Okay, it's a fabulous experience. I mean, no matter what side of the fence you're on, I don't think there's a whole lot of tourism going on right now. Rockets maybe, but not a lot of tourism. So we have to get back to that too. And I'm just one more story and that is one of my godchildren went to Israel with a bunch of her friends and this is a few years ago and it was right around the time that there were attacks, you know, terror attacks in cities. And I remember they blew up a market in the middle of the day with people and it was terrible. And I said to her, you know why would you go it takes a certain amount of courage to go into a what amounts to a war zone where you could be in that market and get blown up. You know, they didn't do anything wrong, you happen to be very liberal about it, but you could be blown up. They don't, the bomb doesn't ask you if you're liberal. The bomb doesn't ask you whether you believe in a two state solution it blows you up and kills you. And that of course happened in October 7th. And what I got out of it though Carl is that she's courageous. She goes to Israel she carries with her a certain amount of courage. Just like Joe Biden he goes to Israel, he carries with him a certain amount of courage. He could have been assassinated. And took that risk. I give him credit. I give her credit. And I think tourists have to build that in. You go to Israel it's like, you know, in the Hebrew, the Aliyah. You go to see what the place is like to rub shoulders with all that that you and I have discussed. And to have some of that but you pay the price of risk and you have to have courage. So it's part of the tourist experience. Well, Jay, just for my conclusion, I think, you know, Martin Luther King had that I have a dream and my dream for Israel is that in the Arab world they will be saying Shalom and in the Jewish world they'll be saying Shalom, Malikom. And of course the answer is Malikom, Shalom. And I hope that does. And I think really the organization that does this masterfully is hand in hand. I'm so encouraged by this educational group and hopefully what's happening now will not destroy all their wonderful educational efforts because it produces you know families and kids that grow up together. And I think that's the only way in the long term that you're going to solve a lot of these issues. And the irony is in terms of ethnic and heritage is I mean we're all semi-together. We're all Semitic. So I mean from a sort of a violent political viewpoint it's sort of weird to solve this fighting and stuff like this. So it's hopefully there'll be a hope in the future. I know that you Jay and I were great believers in law and the following of law will be optimistic about the future of the world for our children and grandchildren. And you have to maintain that optimism, that resilience because along the way Carl there'll be more attacks there'll be more terrorism there'll be more killings. There'll be more senseless savage brutal outrageous attacks and you can't let that deter this process you have described. It's got to happen. And maybe over time it'll it'll become less. Thank you Carl, Carl Ackerman, Dr. Carl Ackerman educator, historian and Keith Butznik. Thank you very much. Thank you, you're always wonderful Jay. Aloha.