 Bingo four o'clock rock here. We are with our flagship energy show Hawaii the state of clean energy every Wednesday be here or be square It's far and he's my co-host. He has this amazing capability of sort of synergizing everything Summarizing making sense out of things. So kind and here's the guy with you know the guys with the raw data Okay at my immediate left Louis Vega Louis Vega specialist and manager of the Hawaii National Marine Renewable Energy Center, which is part of hnei Hawaii natural energy He's doing my right about that. Okay, right here straight. Okay, and to his left Patrick gross cross Program manager Ocean energy also at Hawaii natural energy Institute and he directs the Military efforts, I guess at building wave energy I don't direct the military, but I direct The university support to the military hnei is where you both are yes You're both specialists there and hnei if you didn't know is part of the University of Hawaii in Manoa They're all good things happen all the time almost Okay, so we have a question for you What are we talking about today? Oh? Well, we're I think we're going to be talking about the energy that is trapped in the ocean right now and That we can get it out of the ocean that would help us with our renewable energy efforts And I understand I was reading a blog Dr. Jeff math Masters who is part of the weather underground? wrote an article yesterday that Basically talked about June being the hottest month yet, and oh why it were wide and He had a blog that really summarized what's been happening in the ocean So the ocean is very very hot now and that's energy and energy can either come at us In the form of a hurricane or perhaps if we can learn how to tap it as these gentlemen have been working on We can we can actually suck some of that energy out and use it as clean energy for our electric supply Well, there's a lot of energy out there. We've been thinking about this a long time Louie's been working on it since 1922 I don't know about Patrick. Maybe the same yeah 28 28, okay, and it's out there And we are not really capturing it right now. We have not really captured it So we ordered this talk about today, you know, how much is a really unlimited if I if I put paddle wheels Across every ocean would I slow the ocean process down? Could I take too much energy from the ocean? Would it would it affect our environment if I did that and what kinds of ways can we use to get it out of there? And use it and how expensive is it or cheap you go first Louie's well for the purposes of today I will talk about ocean thermal and My partner and friend Pat will talk about Wave energy so regarding motion thermal what is really important to understand is that? unlike Intermittent resources like solar wind and waves after all they all come from the Sun indirectly The beauty of a motion thermos is always there So is what we can call as engineers base load and it's also dispatchable and that's really important So to me that should be one of the ingredients that will lead us towards Our ambitious goal of having by 2045 a hundred percent. Is it unlimited? We could do the humanity could live on this forever and ever the only way we can answer that but tell you that Because when I really do any any more advances right now due to funding what we have been able to do at the university with Professor Nehouse So I should be free school news, but he goes by Nehouse because that's the way we pronounce it in English I guess is that we set up with a he set up with our funding with computer models such that We took the area that is considered to be the area with it with the most appropriate ocean thermal resource for ocean thermal energy conversion basically between roughly speaking between 20 degrees Southern 23 North latitude around the equator and We directly put one hundred megawatt plant each and we divided that area into 23 by 23 kilometers So that the plant would not interfere with one another and in doing that you're able to generate Close to 90% of the energy all the energy consumed the world. Oh, so you have that's what I meant Yeah, you ask yourself the next question though. And of course that would change the Distribution of temperature in the oceans So you begin to ask yourself how much of that can you take some areas would get cold as I mean I get warmer But when we do that with a computer we can snap our finger and instantaneously have 250,000 plants, but we have zero plants right now So that's that's just saying how far could we get and perhaps without worrying about exact numbers I can tell you for everybody knows what that is, but basically close to 90% of what we consume right now Yeah It appears that we will not really affect the oceans in a really low-tech mental way No, no ocean thermal. I mean it's fascinating ocean thermal was a big thing in Kona back in the 70s There's a ship out there big red ship at Otec written on the side and it was this deep pipe that Originally Nelha built that the National Energy Laboratory of Hawaii and Kona there in order to get that cold water from way down deep And as I understand it's a difference between the temperature of the cold water and the surface warm water So you if you have a shelf that goes straight down, you know And as close to shore you can take advantage of that and get a better result However, the other thing is It's expensive Because the metals involved in oceans ocean thermal ordinary metals corrode the old problem of ocean energy corrosion of metals And if the metals corrode you got to replace them all the time So the one that was most likely candidate my recollection and this is ten years ago. Anyway, it's titanium right titanium is very expensive Yeah, so right is this the problem? No, no really the problem is is that? We did all the work that we could do with experimental plants the biggest plant ever Operator and constructed and operated was at Nelha By the way, that national is natural national they're not part of the national system. That's a much any LHA Was 250 kilowatts or 0.25 megawatt and we're talking about plants that will be a hundred megawatt That's 400 times bigger. So to jump from that experimental plant. There are the issues No, there's you have to take steps in between. Yeah, but those steps require Government funding and that's where the challenge begin for us because out of the 50 states as a state We're the only one that can use Otec directly so we try to tell people from all the states you could manufacture the equipment and Benefit in that way for example our friends in Japan and in Korea are Trying to develop Otec to provide the equipment because they don't have the resource like we do So that's that's really important to understand but going back to materials. I mean that wasn't the need We have problems with corrosion But but it's a matter of maintenance and and to know what is the life cycle and for example that our friends from a car Ocean engineering are now with some of our they had the facility at Nelha, right right now big tower Yeah, 100 kilowatt, but the tower ultimately has to go in the water Yeah, this is just to experiment with heat exchangers. That's why you were a friend to the the most effective one and The titanium but you said they're expensive But what has been done and it's currently being done there's to identify aluminum alloys I can give you the 30 year life expectancy and they have identified alloys that could do that But part of the issues trying to get manufacturing companies to manufacture these devices They need to know what is the market how many are you going to buy? That's one of the problem with Otec is Relatively speaking large components and how do you get manufacturers what has to happen to make this? You know react reality in a ways I take in a time machine if you couldn't and go back to the 70s and ask yourself How was it that wind energy was developed to the point that is now commercial and in many areas is really competitive and The answer to me is thank these citizens of Germany and the citizens of Denmark because they pay for it Their government's expanse through all the research all the trials and errors But that's changed that economic model doesn't exist in the world anymore No garland would ever find things that way anymore. It's just really hard to do what has happened people who lost the thrill of No, I think what happened is that we're also in a lot with the idea of a quick payback that for something like Otec For example, you need to build a demonstration plan or pre-commercial Would take you three or four years before you begin to operate it and then with that information Operator for a couple years you begin to build the first commercial plan So right investor that you wouldn't to wait seven to ten years and the other is no last question before we take a break and that is If we are able to build this if the government steps up And people the energy industry the utilities everybody steps up and say, you know, we'll we'll cooperate will give permits You know, we'll fund it We'll buy the resulting energy or develop storage facilities to keep it and transport it as necessary If we do all of that is do you think I mean, what's what's the idea about? Profitability I mean about cost rather the price is this going to be cheaper than geothermal more expensive cheaper than I don't know cheaper than wind cheaper than solar more expensive. What well the answer is that When when if you want to know about solar or wind I can go and get three or four close on three or four different ventals right now But you talk about in thermal energy being converted to electricity We're not there yet So I can tell you what we have done with economic analysis and what is type of analysis and And when I do that, I like you to also understand the following when you look at the petroleum resources that we have for example For liquid fuels, we have maybe 50 years left in the world Call we have a hundred years petroleum. Yes call. We have a hundred years A natural gas we have maybe 120 years and when you think about how long it will know this do you know this? This is serious. This is like we're in a time bomb To me that that's perhaps this point for today's discussion is more important than climate change and I will they're related because yeah What is going to happen to Hawaii 34 years from now? How are we going to get to a hundred percent? Renew energy to produce electricity. I have a hard time believing we can do that without Ocean thermal because all your thermo is based low and is dispatchable. I am I have solar panels in my house I have working for many years. I did real electrification with those components But you need to store the energy so I can use it in the evening when I get home, right? Right now in my house and also Patrick's house. We have this beauty called a battery called the Hiko I mean Hiko is my battery. I am making electricity right now when I'm talking to you when I go home tonight I want to turn on my Okay, my cold beer and turn on my television. Hiko is working for me Beautiful battery people forget that when people get an hour saying we're gonna get to a hundred percent renewable for electricity production with wind and solar I'm asking how you're going to store the energy People don't want to talk about that and also when we talk about things being cost effective It's because we have subsidies cold have subsidies Petroleum fuel have subsidies everybody has that oh tech. No, no What a shame Okay, and that note. I feel sad you great. You feel sad to you feel sad enough. Take a break. Let's take a break Feeling sad. It was about where you ever come back and talk about wave energy be on the spot Patrick. Okay. That's Patrick He's gonna be on the spot. We'll be right back You're watching think tech Hawaii meeting people we may have not otherwise met Helping us understand and appreciate the good things about Hawaii great content for Hawaii from think tech Hi, I'm Ethan Allen host of likeable science on think tech Hawaii I hope you'll join me each Friday afternoon as we explore the amazing world of science We bring on interesting guests scientists from all walks of life from all walks of science To talk about the work they do why they do it and more over why it's interesting to you What the science really means to your life? It's impacts on you how it's shaping the world around you and why you should care about it I do hope to join me every Friday at 2 p.m. For likeable science Aloha, I'm Kirsten Baumgart Turner, and I'm fortunate to be able to host Sustainable Hawaii at think tech Hawaii comm. I hope you'll join in with us every Tuesday from 12 noon to 1 p.m. To see the interesting people we have to share with you their information Aloha Okay, I've been waiting all this time to you from Patrick. We're gonna hear from him now Okay wave action energy is your bag. Tell us how it's doing Well, actually, uh, Luis and I are both intimately involved in our efforts and wave energy And specifically what we're doing in Hawaii and that the University and at HNE I is Is supporting the Navy's test site? So it's the only wave energy test site in the country. It's one of only a few in the whole world So that kind of obey that guy. Yes off off the Marine Corps base right off the runway at the Marine Corps base That's where the site is. It's three births. There are two of them that are occupied with wave energy devices produced by commercial entities They're pre-commercial we would call them experimental devices Wave energy unlike Otec has a long way to go in terms of engineering There are many that mean metals It means metals it means survivability at sea corrosion. Yes, just mechanical failure serviceability when things break Hydraulics or or direct drive systems it's just Having something out in the ocean that's designed to move around and and do so for a long Periods of time and not break and if it does break being able to efficiently service it and that so wave energy devices at this point in time have many many different looks Radically different approaches to how to extract the energy from the sea So it's while Otec is a is largely a solved problem engineering wise and faces budgetary and permitting challenges Wave energy faces those too, but it's also got a long way to go in terms of solving the engineering Challenges which is why it's fun to be involved in the in the test site from our perspective We get to see these technologies come in and and hope for the best in terms of how well they work and collect the data and observe the environmental impacts and Hopefully move the industry alone So I guess the one thing you didn't mention is the transmission of the energy through a power cable of some kind Is that also a challenge because you know, it's moving the thing is moving I mean even if it doesn't move much it still moves and that cable is going to have to deal with that movement, right? Oh, that's part. I mean the whole system the the mooring systems. Yeah, the the connection points to the cables Yes, I the the ocean is a dynamic environment and things move around. So There are I think some pretty reliable approaches these days to addressing that particular problem and and so far so good with the cabling at our test site and And and at other test sites that hasn't been as big an issue as as some others you remember I mean, I remember you know these to have the thing called the snake Palamis Palamis. Yes. What was it called Palamis? It's a great name for great name for snake. Yeah No, that's my I knew that So and they had all kinds of you know weird rude Goldberg kinds of contraptions that somehow You know held together even in the face of all that all that energy at sea the movement at sea But you really wondered whether they could do this in a way that would be sustainable That where the machine would continue. So what is the favorite technique right now? What is out there as the leading possibility that well, that's an that's an excellent question And I don't think we're ready to answer it yet you know Yes, the Palamis was a was a great example. They were one of the pioneers really in the field and theoretically in terms of how energy is extracted from different Movements of the ocean It's a great device, but it's challenge problem was that it just couldn't survive it just kept breaking So in fact that company is now they've made a lot of advances, but they don't exist anymore And same is true of a couple other pioneers in the field such as aquamarine also a Scottish Company that had a different approach near shore with a just a big flop device in the near shore And that company has has gone away So those are too radically different Australian company. Yes had this big affair north of Maui Was it where it was going to be there was going to be whatever happened to that? Oh, she'll leave the ocean legs I'm no longer Existence so I'm a pattern here. Yeah, I Get their their model that they were going to bring up here They had a storm that Australian Australia that tore it up and They just didn't have the funding to come back with it. Yeah, that was an awesome oscillating water column So I get a I mean I get a bleak picture from this Is this really going to go anywhere? I mean we have a lot of fish to fry here. We have other renewables That have you know actually going into production. I mean solar for example So why why should we spend time on this one? It doesn't look like it's going to go anywhere Maybe in a generation or two when material science gets more sophisticated Who knows maybe nanotech will develop a material that will you know that will survive but right now? Why should we do it? Why yeah, Louise may have a different twist But I guess I was shifting from the negatives of some of these company failures and technologies that have been good ideas But haven't worked There's some new the there's some new ideas coming down the pike. There's a there's an oscillating water column That's not unlike the ocean links approach that will be tested starting next year at Wetz from an Irish company called ocean energy There's great optimism for that particular device. It's it's of a significantly larger scale in terms of power production and size From these first two experimental devices. So there's still there's still a lot of good ideas coming down the pipeline and Why yeah, it's a difficult problem Obviously a very difficult problem. And so that's the obvious question. Why bother in the face of solar and PV or PV and wind when the which are much more mature and much more commercially viable today And I think the answer is we need we need the mix we need though the whole mix to get to the to the end and the The theoretical and even the practical resource in wave is is vast It's it really well in an ideal way. I mean suppose you solve the material science questions and the stability and connection and You know all the all the technical questions suppose you solve them all what role could wave energy play in lighting Oh, wow, where would they be? How far out to see would they be? How would you protect them against the shipping lanes and protect the shipping lanes against collision with them? But what role would they play would they be and again my question that I put through Louise earlier Are they more expensive less expensive to see them as being cheaper and therefore more attractive? I Would at this point again, that's hard to answer It's hard to answer some of your questions about that because it we're just so early in the in the game with wave energy And right now wave energy is about as expensive as anything out there But the potential is there to gain the efficiencies and and produce things in in quantity and and Become somewhat competitive What I get out of this is that if you have a device and you put it out such as that one from Australia That it would assuming it was not going to rust and corrode and all that and break It's just out there and it's generating power for a long long time And assuming there's not a lot of maintenance at very cheap You know cost is just out there functioning sending power back. That's a pretty good deal. That's the dream That's what we're working to sorry that in a way they have been a bit unfair because You want us to to answer your questions? Imagine we're in the wind energy and by this is 1978 1980 That's what we are with waves and you want us to be in 2016 already And remember what's more that win energy was developed because the Danes and the Germans and when those companies were trying to develop and they had a lot of trial and errors They keep getting funding from the government because they were making advancements and as we speak They're making this place with a diameter of 180 meters That's almost two city blocks in diameter and those things are being deployed in the ocean and they've been connected to land by submarine Power cables so but and they all look the same pretty much on the outside It's like sometimes you look at a car and I cannot tell that between a Toyota or Honda or whatever To me they all look the same basically because I'm not into cars I guess but but but it is the same with the wind they all look the same from far out in the business So you see the big logo. Yeah, they all have three blades. They're all forward-looking and so on and so forth. They're horizontal and So but took a while to get there. I can show you some films even some old films of Early pioneers with wind devices. I remember they broke. Yeah, there were many wind farms in this state Yes, that fell apart Abandoned that was the problem. So when the guys that I'm talking about already retired from Hiko But when I moved to Hawaii 30 years ago Some of the Hiko engineers wouldn't talk about renewable energy because they were the ones that fresh out of college Have to work with the wind then and they lost a lot of nice to sleep And now when it's completely commercial and completely available. It's still not accepted We has to do a lot with just people don't want to in the backyard. I guess is what about acceptance I mean if I if I put wind out there, let's say off the Leeward coast of a while who I know I'll get some protest. It's already happening. Yeah You know, I mean it's a great idea and it's all over Europe. It's a you know It's all over the North Sea. I mean wind lots of wind and it's very effective But we would have protest query would we have protest you think in the case of wave energy devices out there? Or for that matter in the case of Otec devices out there, I would say for Hawaii. We do have a good wave resource here So there's there's reasons economically to consider wave for Hawaii But we would not be immune from the same sorts of objections with wave energy For the most part they would be low-profile devices. So they'd be a little bit less visually Troublesome But no doubt, you know fishermen would would argue and we we think I tend to think it's a it's a low impact approach to energy extraction as compared to the big wind turbines offshore, but It would be challenging. Yeah, that's what we have to go back to to the the fact because it is a fact that we have Limited resources from fossil fuels and that will be dependent on Hawaii for example a lot of countries even the Chinese are using a lot of coal right now They want to run out in 50 to 120 years Depending what what is the source and now and what are we going to do? We have to the it took 30 years to implement wind It's going to take that long to implement ways for example. Yeah Well, hmm, what do you make of this Ray? Where is this fit in the many of possibilities? I think we don't have a choice. I think we have to move forward and Hopefully the government will continue to fund this and perhaps even put more money into it Because it's very expensive to get something like this going, but we need it. There's lots of energy in the ocean We need to extract it and we need to do something to dampen down the the climate Change that we're suffering because of the fossil fuel. So I think even if we Even if we don't Have to worry about that if we're going to visually run out of fossil fuels So we need to do something to get off of the extreme Connection with with fossil fuel and the need to to have that so I don't think we have a choice And these guys are doing a good job with what they've got, but I think we need to do more in the Help with the finances from the government on this and I and I think that will probably happen because I think the climate Change will drive it more now than anything else Yeah, that's what I'll have I agree Ray. That's what will happen. We'll have a bad storm We'll see more clearly how we're on a one-way street here And we will agree with you Louise that you kind of have everything Patrick you got to have everything. It's the diversity that we need because most of the renewable energy is is not consistent except for the the OTAC But most of the other energy you're gonna have to have a diversity So when the wind's not blowing maybe the waves are going and yeah, or the sun shining or whatever, right? So that's where we can't we got to continue we got to move forward and we can't be cheap about it We got to spend the money because the alternative is not to have these sort of resources in that way That's not acceptable at all Well, thank you gentlemen. I hope the delegation is listening and I hope they do some funding for you This is think tech. This is Hawaii the state of clean energy where Ray and I Ray Starling and I have talked with the specialists at the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute Louise Vega and Patrick Cross cross Looking at you know what's going on in the ocean. Thank you very much