 Well, good afternoon everyone and thank you for those who can make it today and to all of us who are joining online Welcome just quickly to the people that are here today. If you can make sure your phones are turned off So we don't have any random calls or texts throughout the sessions or session. That would be wonderful I'll now quickly hand over to Doug Ferguson who's a chairman of KPMG New South Wales and the head of international markets and and NCP business champion for a few words Thanks James and Welcome everybody. It's wonderful to be here and to have you here as our guest James wonderful to have you as our moderator given your NCP alumnus of some repute and now landed a very senior role in New South Wales government doing what we hoped you would So congratulations and it's great to have you involved My name is Doug Ferguson. I'm the chairman as mentioned for KPMG here in New South Wales Which means that we look after about six officers four and a half thousand stuff I also have worked with this amazing team to run our Asia international markets business for the last nine years and We we're going to be drawing on their talent today to talk about what's happening specifically in the Chinese Japanese and Indian corridors with Australia More importantly though, I'm a business champion of the New Colombo plan. I was involved on the reference group for a number of years working with Secretary Adamson and ministers and more put more pertinent Lee I was Once a foreign student myself Studying in Taiwan in the mid 90s So the NCP is very close to my heart and my mind. It's helped me enormously with my career And I hope it helps all of you with yours as it's Our customer at KPMG I'd like to start by acknowledging the traditional custodians the gaggle people of the Eora nation and pay our respects to their elders past present and emerging This is the Asia symposium one of the last events in the NCP momentum series for 2021 and I'd like to to thank the the New Colombo plan Secretary Michael Lisa and particularly Brian Borgona For helping us to arrange this. I'd like to acknowledge and welcome Gary Quinlan AO who's one of the nation's most senior foreign affairs and public service diplomats Has just retiring as the the ambassador to Indonesia has done an incredibly good job over many decades And it's great to have Gary here with us today from Canberra We've also got our team as I mentioned Helen Kechi and Jay who I'll introduce briefly But this is a really really great opportunity for us to take stock. Obviously, there's a huge amount going on In the Indo-Pacific region that is directly impacting Australia and it's going to be great to hear From not only the team that are here, but also online. We have Dr. Meridan for all Who's who's smiling and waving Meridan? Runs our geopolitics hub and she's also a non-resident fellow of the Lower Institute The the New Colombo plan has been a national project of great significance over 40,000 Australians University age have now completed an international experience And I think it's going to leave a very long-term legacy for our country and we really need each of you to go on with the job, you know, we are Australia that is a is a trading nation that depends on foreign investment. We are very well positioned within the Indo-Pacific region to leverage the capabilities that each of you bring But it is complex and we need people that have taken an interest in this from a very young age and have continued to invest in yourselves So, you know as it gets You know more and more into the Asian century We will hope to see each of your stars rise and one day you'll be you'll be sitting out here in front as well I don't want to say too much more than that I'm really looking forward to hearing from our guest speakers, but once again on behalf of KPMG Thanks to the New Colombo plan. Thank you very much to each of our guests that are in in the audience today And online and I hope it's great session James Thank you, Doug and a big warm welcome to our panelists and Meridan as well. Thank you for joining us online I might start the questions today with you Meridan while we have you on our screen to the right What do you see as the opportunity for business in Asia and how has that changed from say pre-covid to now? And will it change further in the future? Thanks, and thanks very much for having me and Apologies that I can't be there in person. I have a slight sniffle Which is not actually close to death in any way, but I can't really go out in public until that's cleared up So, um, it's great to see you all here I've got a bit of an echo. So I'll just also try and I want to answer that question if I can by looking at some of the major geopolitical themes that are driving change in the region and Think about how that's Shifting the environment that we're all operating in and Australia As one of one of the many countries affected by this where we're seeing national interest objectives and business interests Intersecting perhaps more than they have in the last 20 or 30 years So indeed I think in Australia our national interests or the definition of national interest are Expanding such that business interests can't be separated from anymore Like the definition of the expanded definition of critical infrastructure that we now have in Australia It's like our old friend Hugh White often likes to talk about and we've got two Horses one is our economic well-being and one is our security and strategic interest and it's fine for us and Other countries in the region. This is true for as well If those two forces are running in parallel for have to have one foot on each step But if those horses are not running in parallel We find ourselves in an extremely difficult situation and that's a situation that we're in our economic security horse National interest horse and no longer just running neatly side-by-side Now why is this? Because of the rapidly changing global and regional geopolitical context that we're in And I'd like to as I said talk about sort of four major themes in order to answer this question The first thing or mega-trend is structural shifts in the international system So we're one looking at here is the rising economic power of actors who weren't part of the formation of the first post-World War two international order and their desire for more voice and agency in the system and At the same time the response of the status quo powers to these emerging voices Now in particular we're talking about the strategic competition between China as it grows more powerful and assertive and the US There are implications in that strategic competition for Australia and our relationship with China and The bottom line for that for our bilateral relationship with China is that the challenges we're facing are much deeper and broader Than Australia just spearheading the investigation into covered origins as that's as the popular narrative Our relationship with China and the challenges that we're facing is so much deeper and so much broader But they're not set to prove any time soon not in the short term and not in the medium term and long term I'd say that it's unknowable at best The second thing is rising anger at real and perceived inequality There's a growing belief around the world among average people Those not in the elite privileged classes the benefits through globalization and free trades are being stripped off by the elite and that average working people aren't seeing any improvements in their own well-being and their own livelihoods and What that's leading to is a mistrust that the status quo way of doing things that the current regime of elite Ever make things better So we're seeing a move away from the political center by seeing shifts to the extreme left the extreme right We're seeing a growth in identity politics around religious identification ethnic identification, and that's happening all around the world For example in the United States real wages have been stagnating for about 20 years And that is very much part of the polarization that led to Trump coming into power and Continuing to underpin Trumpism despite Biden now being president Now this dissatisfaction is very fertile ground the rise of populism and authoritarian leaders We see then the erosion of stability domestically because populist leaders and authoritarian leaders alike don't appreciate the Institutions and norms of a democratic order so because they provide checks and balances power So rule of law freedom of speech freedom of information these kinds of things start to be pulled apart and globally we see an erosion of Interstitutionalism and multilateral norms and the kinds of ideas and structures that allow free trade so we can look at the WTO over the past few years and how that's been challenged and cooperation for global governance on possible to threat also starts we rise Now we have to ask is this just a Trump phenomenon We just had a g7 and the first in many years where the leaders have been able to come together and develop a Communicator and an agreement about what the challenges are and how to address them But it still remains to be seen whether actions meet And whether or not this is even enough to turn the tide that we're seeing around the world Is the g7 and where the answer for global governments really live? The third thing is Industrial Revolution 4.0, so this is about tech disruption cyber But I think the terminology of Industrial Revolution 4.0 gives a sense of gravity and the importance of this change It's not just driverless cars. It's not just fridges that can order your groceries for you when you run out We're talking about emerging innovation cutting-edge science and technology that has the very real potential To revolutionize government structures economies businesses and life as you know it It's arguably the kind of change that was comparable that's comparable to that that was brought about by the steam engine Steam power or electricity or computing There are many different aspects to this for example automation and AI and how they're going to Effect jobs and employment and what that means for political stability The growing role of social media in shaping politics and society when it's being used by sophisticated political actors for political in What the future of warfare conflicts could look like we're not going to see this kind of physical tanks boats Bricks on the ground but much more of this gray zone plausibly deniable Conflicts intention so military power no longer guarantees national security and Tech is not only going to shape how conflict is conducted But also what states are in conflict about if data is the new oil That is who has data has wealth of power and Certain minerals are critical to the data. Sorry a critical to the hardware that makes data run Who has access to these minerals and elements could reshape the geopolitical landscape? Hydrogen also is another resource that could fundamentally redraw the geopolitical So these kinds of tech data resource is really pushing geopolitical dynamism and Developments are moving faster And the last thing is the climate crisis At the global level as David Attenborough said to the G7 the climate crisis is an issue of global security and at business levels as Levi Strauss's head Paul Dillinger said anyone with a supply chain is going to be affected by climate change Just as important as it is to the Pentagon We're all familiar now with the first order effects like drought bushfires like bones floods We're seeing these happen dream and intense and more often So the cold snap in France is now after a hyper war spring Devastated breaks and other clocks and that's been attributed to climate change But there are also flow and effect and we have to look at these as well in terms of migration refugees new diseases increased frequency of pandemic political instability In our own region the millions of people in Vietnam who rely on the Mekong River For their well-being and their livelihoods are struggling to maintain their livelihoods as the Mekong records lower and lower and lower levels of water each year and that's because of extended and severe droughts As well as damming up streams, which is another geopolitical issue coming into play So what does this mean for the movement of refugees and people within Vietnam across boards for Asian stability and security? We have to think of these flow and effects as well and of course covert has accelerated and exacerbated all of these trends The way we recover And global levels will affect all these trends into the future So very quickly the outlook for business in the region We need to understand that geopolitical logic is increasingly shaping the business environment and this geopolitical logic is shifting profoundly from the trends that we saw in the 90s and the early 2000s like openness globalization internationalization and democratization and rather we're moving to an environment which is characterized by successions, skepticism, nationalism, protectionism, populism and authoritarianism So it's certainly the case that the time of business as usual is based on an assumption that there is a broadly shared and increasingly convergent economic logic is really diminishing So three things in our region to look out for to finish up Firstly commitments to globalization and the political will to follow through So who in our region has committed to what? We know that our three major export markets for coal, Japan, South Korea and China have all committed to net zero by 2050 or 2060 To what extent are they going to be able to realize that commitment? We're seeing huge political demonstrations within China by which I mean Indication that from the very top and from the very center they intend to meet these targets What does that mean? It's not only coal but there are other opportunities as I said in this for example hydrogens rare earths and critical minerals But we always have to keep in mind with those as well ESG the economic sorry the environmental and social and governance consequences and considerations The second thing to keep in mind and look out for is domestic political in Developments in our region. What are the tendencies of leaders in our region when it comes to democratic norms and institutions domestically and Multilateralism and openness internationally and the third is of course post COVID recovery and development Australia's been banking on an increasingly wealthy and stable Asia for our increased and ongoing prosperity Is this still the trajectory as we look down the barrel of a long COVID with many countries in our region being extremely hard here This has implications for regional stability And we also need to think about what it means for develop development and poverty reduction as that slows and repressive So what do we need to reconsider when we're thinking about Asia and Australia in the short and medium term? I want to just finish up by saying that while this sounds like a fairly dramatic picture We can think about it as an opportunity and not just as a series of risks People talk about unpredictable times. It was one of Julie Bishop's favourites But I would argue that it's not so much unpredictable But what we're looking at is a shock to our once comfortable assumptions about how the world works and will continue to work But it's not just chaos. It's a shift And so understanding why that shift is happening and where it's going can really bring great Attitudes for those who are prepared for it. Okay, I'll leave it there. Thank you very much That was wonderful Thank you for that Meredith and and it's perhaps we'll stick with the themes you're talking about here and in terms of You know nationalism and protectionism and the many challenges that we we have to to a long established You know way of life for many of us in the global markets and I might move to you Gary and and perhaps we'll pivot to a government perspective on this Given your recent posting to Indonesia and and Agreements like ISF a free trade agreements and and closing of ties with Indonesia How do you see Australia navigating the Asian century from say a government to government level and a policy level And also a government to business level Okay Thanks, Marilyn. You must have you must have aligned with my email that I sent you last night with what I was proposing No, no, no, so I agree with everything you said because it's self-evident It is the world. We're facing the ecosystem to pick up on your last point about what we're experiencing is a shift That's absolutely right. So what do we do about a shift? We try and shape it to secure our own interests and make sure the ecosystem which is developing Is as I don't want to use the word benign, but is as favorable As it can be to the interests of a country like ourselves That may seem fairly self-evident. So what does that then mean? It means as a country. We have to be enormously proactive We need to know how we think We would like to see the ecosystem and What are the points that we're worried about and what are the points that we can work on? the point Merit and you make about globalization reaction to globalization competition and all the rest of it Means one thing. It means that the rules We agree to abide by or even more important than they were in the past But the key is that we agree to abide by because we're not alone in this And so we have to work with everybody to refresh those rules reform those rules And there's quite a lot of activity now of course internationally about what do we do about the World Trade Organization? Which President Trump God bless him did some damage to but it was already having problems It needs to be more fit for purpose World Health Organization is an obvious case because public health is clearly going to be indefinitely as we await the next pandemic We're not quite sure when it'll happen. Maybe sooner than we think so. We have to have public health globally in a much better position The International Monetary Fund that's in need of reform and recognition of The very legitimate interests of countries like China to have a greater influence on something in terms of the quota system And everything else that operates in the IMF in Australia It's been pushing for that since the G20 was established in 2008 at leaders level so those kind of things to refresh and reform The rules we all agree to abide by but as part of a collective effort And it's not easy, but that's very much what has to be a particular priority for a country like this And that means you got to have coalitions You can work with to do that And be careful to try and make sure those coalitions don't create a binary position Situation which actually pushes certain people away So all of this is you know what diplomacy is all about and what have you to achieve that And this is why I think meetings like the G7 which has just taken place a very important The G7 is not a solution to all the problems we've got But you do need to shake the tree loose particularly now that Trump's gone to sort of see well Who are the countries who make the same kind of assessments about what's going on in the world? And then I've prepared to say now let's work out a bit of a strategy on how we can deal with some of these things And that's what we're seeing and I must say I think President Biden's doing the right thing By shaking that tree and trying to get people to focus more Strategically on what those issues are that need need to be to be worked on Country like Australia the Asian century. Well as Merrigan you said We're not quite sure how that's going to play out. We'll have to see What impact COVID-19 has medium term and then longer term on the economies in the Asia Pacific? We simply don't know but I think it's probably fair enough at the moment to guess Guess not guess estimate Assess that the fundamental shift we've seen strategically geopolitically, but geo economically and economically To this part of the world the Indo-Pacific will continue The reality is when you look at a world of strategic competition Which is what we've got now the fulcrum of that strategic competition is this region the Indo-Pacific And that means an enormous amount to us because we are a significant player In our own terms and regionally within the Indo-Pacific, so what should our response be in the broader sense? We want a resilient region that means we have to be resilient as a nation and know what we want And what the points are that we think we can have an impact a good impact on But also we want other countries in the region to be resilient and that means frankly We've got we Australia have to do a lot more in terms of operationalizing the rhetoric We have about the region I think we've got the rhetoric right, you know Assyaan importance of Assyaan the centrality of Assyaan Southeast Asia more broadly But we don't operationalize it enough. And what does that mean? It means we've got to spend more money You know, I mean the Prime Minister made a commitment of half a billion new money half a billion at the Assyaan Australia Summit held last November and that's great Some money for the Mekong bit of money on infrastructure 70 million dollars $70 million fine, but and it's good and I'll provide expert advice and everything like that But we need to do more than that Public health obviously we're giving a lot of money in terms of vaccinations But again that should only be seen as the first installment in Working to ensure that the ecosystem for public health in our region Is so much stronger than it is so more money has to be spent It's a simple fact and if you've got a deficit of 1.6 trillion and you're prepared to work with that well fine You know, maybe we could spend just a little bit more very targeted in areas where we have a distinct advantage And obviously, you know anything to do with institution building governance public policy Because there is an appetite there is an interest in countries in our region including Indonesia about what we As a country that has remade itself since the 1980s fundamentally in those terms has got to teach others Including because we've made mistakes. I mean as a young kid I worked on some of this for eight years in the Hawken Keating government You know as chief of staff on domestic not diplomatic issues Nothing to do with me But I was there and able to see the kind of fundamental changes we made and what we subsequently learned from them And there's an appetite in our region and we need to meet that to reinforce their own national resilience And the deficits in resilience in these countries I mean, you know these people know what's going on in their own country The elites who run it and everything else and they're identifying problems They want help and we should be the go-to country for all of that because they want us to be They're aware if you think just of China, they're aware of the potential difficulties with China for heaven's sake They want a new equilibrium, but they want it to be a fair equilibrium and therefore they want the assistance of resilient people like ourselves And that's how they see us To be able to work with them on all of those kind of things. Sorry. I've gone on a bit, but My key point is we've got a lot of the rhetoric, right? We've got to operationalize it. What does it mean? What's the next step and we've got a whole history of doing a lot of good in the region But now is the point of a fundamental shift where we need to do so much more Rather than just a bit here a bit there play catch up We're not just doing that, but we put to do more and and and the region wants us to so there's an open door Anyway, sorry. I went on a bit. No, I haven't touched on business. I don't think and Yeah, Meredith points about the intersection now between You know activity with business and governments and everything else is a telling one obviously the private sector a massive role and Should have at everything else, but it is it is a difficult intersection in so many ways if you just look at the at the threat from New technology to business the digital economy critical infrastructure These are all under threat through great war and all the rest of it, you know great conflict and so the the the kind of symbiosis In a country like this with business in those kind of areas to help protect business protect itself At including offshore, but also domestically if it means anything the distinction is going to be so much greater in the future as well and I think that most business leaders are increasingly aware of that now and at least Private leaf not publicly supportive and understanding, but nonetheless need to continue to to trade and seek investment from Asia Well, that's exactly what I was about to ask you. Yeah Doug, I think you know both Meredith and Gary have touched on these themes of You know finding where astra Australia has strategic advantage and where it's excelling and and I guess from a business perspective I'd like to know more about what you're seeing You know where Australian capabilities are really matching with opportunities across the Indo-Pacific are there any particular sectors? I mean we see you know right through the federal government state government levels a big focus on things like themes like agribusiness Medtech the federal government just announced tax incentives for Medtech Where are you seeing the the opportunities matching with our our capabilities and will that change? Well, I'm very pleased to have my out my colleagues That are going to be talking specifically about China, Japan and India, but but in general I think that There's a number of areas that are not only important But could be increasingly important for Australian companies to focus in on despite the geopolitical Issues that will always continue at the government level the the desire for protein and Safe reliable food and also the food safety systems and the cold chain logistics to ensure that food reaches Consumers safely and efficiently Throughout the Indo-Pacific region. I do think that that health care, you know The treatment of cancers the treatment of dietary-based diseases Age care that that's another really big area where Australia has very genuine and deep experience other other areas Around the financing of major infrastructure We're one of the best people that at looking at ways of Recirculating capital from old infrastructure that might be sold and privatised to enable funding and the right mix of debt and equity For for new projects. I don't know that that's something in Indonesia. That's it's incredibly attractive to the jacobi Administration so yeah, so these these are just three examples, but we've got to play to strengths We obviously yeah, we can we can export minerals we can export gas But as I think Meredith pointed out, you know, there is a change in in the in the In the settings of governments as they look towards their 2050 and 2060 goals So we have to adapt to that as well. That's not going to evaporate overnight but I also am a huge believer in the importance of People-to-people exchanges so making sure that we receive foreign students into our universities who come here Learn and experience what the best of Australia has to offer and for us to send people like you our brightest University students across Asia because there is so much that needs to be done In terms of just taking some of the The heat out of what we read in the newspapers and distilling it down to people-to-people Interactions again a lot can be achieved and we need to move into generationally through From from Gary's and my generation to yours By building strength and warmness in the relationship Absolutely, and maybe as you said, let's take a deep dive into the different markets So I'd like to hear from you Ketchy about the the emerging opportunities You know between Japan and Australia are there are there trends in trade investment What are you saying through through this COVID period and beyond? This is a good segue from Meridan So Meridan touched on decarbonisation and hydrogen So this is the biggest agenda that Japan and Australia have at the moment So as Meridan said Japan announced net carbon zero target at the 2050 But if you think about what happened in the past probably 30 40 years So Australia has been key supplier of energy to Japan So Japan basically got nothing underneath the ground. They basically import So basically 90 more than 95% of energy is actually expected exported from elsewhere. So After the Bit of issues with the nuclear power station in 2011 So they basically come back to the qualified power station So cold is the main source of electricity in Japan. So it's about 65 to 70% like Australia So what are you going to do with this situation? So basically Japan is now focusing really hard on the hydrogen based solution So at the same time, so Australia has announced National hydrogen strategy. I think that was 18 months ago. It's a pretty timely and strategy announcement But basically what they're saying is Australia wants to get to top three Hydrogen exporter in the next five to ten years. So it's perfect timing for Japan and Australian Relationships as well. So basically what the strategy is saying they would invest quite heavily in technology and then also Increased export capability so they can export hydrogen to key markets such as Japan, Singapore, and Korea So we've been seeing quite a lot of jointly Operating projects between Australia and Japan. So you might have seen large Brown-core hydrogen project in Victoria called Heskies project So basically what they've done is the Japanese consortium Victorian government and an AGL team up together to basically come up with a new technology using carbon capture storage Technique to basically extract CO2 out of the brown-core to create hydrogen So they basically developed all supply chain between Australia and Japan. So they've established the port, Shipment, terminal, everything to basically have a new technology in place So we are going to see a lot more similar projects like this in the next five years So that's what we're really working hard on In terms of the advantage that you've asked. So Australia has got really strong advantages over the hydrogen Especially in this region. So basically for the hydrogen there are two types I can talk about hydrogen properly in the next two hours, but there are two types of hydrogen So in terms of a green hydrogen, which is completely clean energy So you source energy from renewable. So basically we have 23 gigabit new electricity and generation capability coming from on market in the next seven years So we've got very powerful and source of hydrogen So it's a green hydrogen and also the blue hydrogen which is still used for the gas and coal obviously because existing infrastructure like gas pipelines Electricity, you know connectors and everything that can be used for the hydrogen as well So I think we are very very pressed in the hydrogen space for Asia, especially for Japan So we basically got 50 years of trading energy in the past yet basically in the past 50 years 70% of Japan the coal Japan uses actually from Australia and the 35% of energy and Japan uses from Australia as well as a really strong relationship. So that is a big big advantage for those two countries Exciting times indeed and I might I might stick with coal if I can Helen most exciting opportunities between Australia and China at this time. It's a challenging relationship. It's hard to say at this stage Hi, good afternoon everyone Helen Judant So my role at KPMG is to look after the Chinese investors community So my job is to look after our Chinese clients here in Australia Therefore, we've been tracking Chinese investment into Australia consecutively for the last 11 years actually dagger myself Together with our friends at Sydney University. We produce the signature Thought leadership is called demystifying Chinese investment in Australia. So in the Google it downloaded It gives you a full view of the Chinese investors landscape into Australia But very quickly to summarize it at the moment not much happening Actually in three weeks time we will launch our newest demystifying report You will see the the investment number from China in 2020 to Australia in that report But if you look compare With 2018 The overall trend is going down the investment from China It's not just since COVID happened when the two government statue, you know Not on a proper constructive talk terms even before that two years before that we saw the investment from China Going down there lots of reasons behind it the Chinese investors are trying to rationalize their own investments. That was too much kind of a non-commercialy driven You know favors of investment from China and they now realize, you know We need to rationalize our investments in a more due diligence more planning and more Accountabilities need to be in place and then many other reasons, but we kind of know From 2018 Chinese investment going down, but if you look at a wider horizon China and Australia are two countries. They absolutely need each other Australia needs China for its products and services China needs Australia for lots of its products and services So that's why the Chinese are not just buying product services from from Australia They're also investing into the businesses projects that accept the assets here in Australia to secure the supply It all started from natural resources as we know the oil gas The I know project the coal project So in all started there and there's some infrastructure project followed You know no-brainer you know we've got a large amount of things you need to ship over to China It's the infrastructure is the next step and from there around 2011 2012 Chinese investment into Australia start to diversify So that's when agriculture started at one stage in back in 2012 every week I got the call from somewhat agricultural business or property business in China. Hey, I want to invest Business in Australia. Hey, I want to invest into a big farm projects in Australia So agriculture became an interested area although for some years We say we see one or two major every investment project the most investment into this sector remain fairly small and from agricultural we start to When we came to 2014 its property 2014 15 16 17 for full consecutive years property from nowhere junk to the second highest sector in terms of receiving Chinese investment and after property it was health care Healthcare is the vitamins. That's where we said, you know, Swiss, you know, lots of the land market. Nature's care lots of and also medicare even Cancer treatment clinics were invested by or acquired by Chinese investors And that's what the Chinese were on and then after healthcare increasingly we saw even more diversified like renewables Like now lots of the in Technology education services. So the trend in overall is speaking. They are they started from natural resources You know, but they gradually move to you know, agricultural health care Renewables properties and now even more diversified sector. What does it say? It says what China needs from the rest of the world are changing. So I believe You know, I've grown up in China My early career was in with Chinese organizations as well It's all about meeting China in the 90s or started in the 80s Actually, the Chinese government and Chinese people want investments from overseas So they set up manufacturer JVs in China that they can produce produce produce and export to the rest of the world That's why China is called the manufacturing center of the world But from 2014 it really has changed why 2014 in China's history That's the first year China exported more capital than the capital it receives That means China invested more capital outside of China than the capital flew into China What does China want to own global operations to supply to the increasing middle classes in China? So I believe the trend is changing from major in China to made for China and in this process Lots of asset and project became owned by China But the goal if you ask majority of my client recently investing Australia They believe they can create more value to the Australia or any overseas business by bringing their products and services and sell back to the Chinese market So that's the overall trend we see Great answer and I might stick with you for a second because I'd like to explore more about You know, you mentioned some themes about where from here and I might open up to the broader power and Meridan as well I'd like to ask you first Helen about you know, what do you see the role of of relationship building in in building? Whether that be trade or investment or even for some of the scholars here today their relationships overseas great question great question I think It's a you know the bilateral relationship between the two countries is very complex But everyone has a role to play We actually do a survey to Chinese investors every two three years and you will see That's consistent theme showing up by the Chinese investors So they feel Australia media is possibly most relatively speaking most hostile towards the Chinese investors Chinese business And they fell for followed by the federal government But by at a state level at the business level at the community level They actually feel they are very welcome and supported by people from that level And that that at the local level also include the universities the other institutions here in Australia So they don't see Australia just as one voice although, you know Sometimes the media to report can be heavily focused on one kind of voice But the Chinese investors here they know that they look at Australia at different levels So therefore, you know people and institutions at every level has a role to play So that hasn't changed in every hour survey that they're feeling towards different Areas of Australian Institutions their supportiveness towards China hasn't changed very consistent for the for the last 10 years And what's interesting is also although the Australian-China relationship at currently in a very challenging Environment, but the investors we talked to they they don't think they will last forever They definitely don't think you will finish in six months time But it will finish and everyone has a pipeline. They continue to study Australia market. They continue to Invest into the network and building their local resources and building their local team because the moment the relationship started turn around They will be ready to make their investment So to me that shows people's view on Australia's attitude towards China. It's it's multi-layered It's not just one single voice Australian love China or hate China. They know at different level you hear different voices Interesting and I guess maybe I'll move I'll move now to you Jay who I've kind of left on the end For the important questions and I do want to perhaps if you can start with a little bit about the trends that you're seeing You know just as catchy and Helen have both mentioned the changing dynamics of of Japanese and Chinese trade investment Are you seeing change in the way that that? You know we are trading with with India and we you know Indian investors are coming here and And how much of that is built on as we just touched on relationships? Thanks, James great to be lucky last No, thanks for the questions and I think You know, you know absolutely we've seen a lot of change particularly over the last five to six years, but Good afternoon everybody and It's great to be here And as mentioned my name is Jay Patel I've been with the firm here in Australia for 20 years started out as a tax grad moved around the tax division through indirect taxes corporate tax research and develop development tax including a second to KPMG in India in Mumbai specifically in 2006 and that was a wonderful experience working with clients and our colleagues there And I guess that was probably the genesis of my my interactions from a worker career perspective with India And ever since then my KPMG world if you like Has consisted of KPMG Australia KPMG India and the broader KPMG international network. There's a lot of the Indian clients I work with a truly multinational organizations In 2015 Doug asked me to take on my current role Which is to to head up KPMG Australia's India business practice. So like Helen My focus is very much on the the Indian inbound But but also Australian outbound trade and investment flows between our two countries And the organizations behind those And I have to say since 2015 I've been quite fortunate because what we've seen is a steady rise in the bilateral relationship between Australia and India Initially spearheaded by you know numerous senior ministerial visits But that led then to the two To governments on both sides developing quite detailed economic strategies and roadmaps To assist businesses in their consideration of the commercial opportunities In in Australia and India Over the same period since since 2015 if we if in if we look at the economic relationship in pure economic terms The two-way trade and investment relationship has grown from 40 billion to 67 billion So we have James seen A steady rise In the bilateral relationship as well as the economic relationship. It's part of that Now COVID-19 of course has had a devastating impact on India and and and you know For that reason there's been an impact on on that rate of growth in the bilateral relationship over the last 12 15 months, but Two really positive developments that have emerged during this period, which I'd like to share And one is the really close friendship between Australia and India and I think that's that's from Prime Minister level down to the to the cricket pitch and you know into our communities and societies and Probably no more evident in in Australia's really quick response to to India's Urgent, you know requirements for medical supplies during the most recent the second wave of COVID-19 In India, but I think that that act of solidarity and humanitarian support Really, you know really does signal a very strong foundation for for greater collaboration across the board and of course Australia and India as Many of the panelists have highlighted today You know, there's there's a lot more that they can do in the space of COVID-19 research Research and development best practice, but also beyond in the health and life science sciences sectors The second key development is really the rise in the voice of the Indian diaspora which is here in Australia, which is 700,000 plus strong and and and they really play a critical role in Helping to sort of accelerate the the economic relationship Between our two countries given the very strong social cultural and and business connections and ties that they have back Back in India, so it's it's great that they've come to the fore during this period in my view It's it's really important now that some you know specific programs are developed to You know really untapped the the potential and the power within the diaspora To to help organizations realize those commercial opportunities Between the two countries. I will just turn to the the economic relationship then and and talk both about the The Australian outbound into India and and the reverse in turn If we look at the Australian outbound Just just a couple of overarching comments. I think you know just to set the scene Meritants touched on the geopolitics of play and what that means in terms of open and free market access and and and the impact and shift we're seeing In in supply chains and you know, you know what what India means in that in that context Secondly the the the core fundamentals around India still hold true And so once once this current covered Situation settles the expectation is that India will will will sort of bounce back and you know will experience a V-shape recovery if you like So India's forecast to grow something like 8.3% in this current financial year by 22 Followed by 7.5% in in 23 and the third point is that in The two to three years preceding COVID What what we did see was a was a steady but You know a very definite uptick in in in interest amongst Indian business Australian businesses as far as India was concerned Many were in advanced stages of their their India studies and plans Had been visiting in India for that purpose. And so I I really do believe when when COVID hit we were we were at that inflection point or very close to an inflection point And so I'm you know with this with with these two or three points in mind I'm I'm quite confident that the Australian business will or is is very keen to resume It's it's India study and you know business plans as as soon as that is possible And the the 10 sectors that that are identified in the India economic strategy Will still be relevant in in a post pandemic India Perhaps with some tweaking in terms of the priority of sectors so to perhaps bring Sectors like health and infrastructure To the top Given that you know India has some you know some desperate and urgent needs and In that regard Important to note that despite the disruption the Cove has caused in India the government there is continued its economic reform agenda particularly around attracting foreign direct investment and and making it an easier place to do business and so that's that that's a Dynamic space that Australian businesses need to sort of be mindful of and keep watch watch off if I if I think about some of the more recent developments in that space It in India's reduced introduced production linked cash incentives to to attract manufacturing across a range of sectors and that's and that's you know in combination to For ended it you know to become more self-reliant, but also to position India's a global manufacturing hub Secondly the introduction of of all the established establishment rather of India's first international financial services precinct which is in Goodrath And and and that's that's now open up opened up to foreign participation You know in terms of core core financial Services organizations and expertise, but also incillary service providers like like professional services firms I'll now move to the Indian inbound into Australia It's it's It comes broadly across five sectors energy natural resources pharmaceuticals information technology A little bit of advanced manufacturing and financial services Having said that In of the last 12 to 24 months India's sterling Wilson solar has just become the largest DPC provider for solar renewable projects in Australia But conscious of time so might just focus on the Indian IT companies here in Australia because of their their presence here the size of their presence and the size of their workforces They're well-established in this market. They're profitable growing organically in organically In fact, I can probably think of four acquisitions that have happened just in the last 12 months in a range from 50 to 250 million dollars in this market And they're increasingly moving up the value chain Intonation, you know high-tech areas, but what what excites me most about The Indian IT companies is is is the potential they have in this market because the proposition I'd I'd put them is the opportunity to to establish innovation hubs or centers of excellence and all the like and you know perhaps in collaboration with with broader industry government academia Not just for Australia, but also for the region addressing, you know some, you know key national priorities and areas of strategic importance such as cyber and AI and and 5g and that would be a wonderful thing. We'd see them contribute Even further job creation capabilities skill development And and in the higher education space. I'll leave it there. Thank you Well, we're nearly at a time But I'll I'll perhaps we'll ask one more question and then afterwards we'll do a Q&A So if you have any questions get ready I'd like to to open up to all of all of the panel A question about you know, we've mentioned a lot of themes today Meredith and you spoke about a lot of the challenges that we're you know and changes that we're we're having and and We looked at that from a I guess a government policy level As well Gary and then we sort of move through the markets and business opportunities. I guess for for us younger younger people in the audience a Really cool and key takeaway from today would be would would be to understand where we can take advantage of these opportunities Where we can engage in the Indo-Pacific whether it's in China or Japan or India or even more broadly So perhaps Meredith I'll I'll ask you first as we haven't we haven't come back to you in a while But you know from your your I guess policy and and geo strategic position Where do you see you know exciting opportunities for young people and where can we think out of the box in terms of engagement? I hate going first on these sorts of missions because I really like nicking other people's answers and and saying them differently and pretending they're mine, but um, I Think that you know going back to the point that I made about The opportunities here in understanding what's happening. This is where from my point of view The rubber hits the road To understand that to do business now from Australia you need to build this Stuff is due politics into your strategy. You can't pretend that it's there And so then when you're looking for whatever opportunity is thinking about what what my colleagues have just said Whatever opportunity it is that you're thinking about to build the geopolitical Challenges and opportunities into that is really critical, but I also Want to add that in terms of sort of exciting potential What Helen mentioned a minute ago in response to your question about Connections and relationships is so true and this is where you know you guys and your experience in the new Colombo plan can really start to Leverage your experiences when I was working in China I was working for the United Nations over there and the Contact that we had in the Ministry of Commerce had done a master's degree at New South Wales Uni and The the ability for us to connect in a way that no one else on our team from the UK from Germany from America Could connect because of his experience in Sydney You know we talked about you know going for walks under fig trees and various beaches that he'd been to and all these sorts of things and The ability that that gave us to work together in a way that that it seems you know, it seems Overkill to suggest that that really was the foundation for our success But it really was and because we had that connection our project went better than I'm sure it would have otherwise So I just think that that combination of understanding the large but also utilising those individual Human connections as a combination is really powerful I'll stop there great answer and And Gary do you from from your you know diverse experience across a range of different countries environments and Institutions what it do you have anything else to add on that point look? Look, it's it's fairly self-evident that if you've got that as an advantage then Good, but you need to leverage it of course and use it But and that's what the new Colombo plan and everything else is about The trick with the new Colombo plan of course is if we could just get people to spend once the board is We can get people to spend more than just a few weeks You know, I mean it's at least a semester and then we should be looking to a longer period of engagement and And and so many people here today of course have been fellows and scholars and that's that's fantastic At all the rest my only comment would be digital because we We're all moving to a digital economy and COVID one of the interesting as you know Effects of COVID-19 has been to accelerate very significantly digital growth across most economies and certainly in our own region Even in Indonesia very significant increase in digital interactions for business and commerce and of course That cuts into every other business sector. So anything that where we can leverage off digital change In other areas whether it's agri business medicine, whatever Is going to be a new and very prospective area and my own experience of young People in Indonesia, and I wouldn't overstate that but you know quite a lot because our real focus is an embassy And so on was very much on younger generations in every sense Future leaders and the people leading change in Indonesia at an accelerated pace So savvy so smart so switched on and just Huge appetite to engage with others in those areas mind you we compete they have an absence of Yeah, data experts the same as we do and so we're competing with each other in some of those areas But increasingly the focus is well, what can we do together? Address the same gaps together because it magnifies the impact obviously in the opportunity. So Anyway, that's the only comment I would make Great answer and perhaps in the interest of time. I will allow the other panelists Maybe we can touch on that in our networking afterwards So we'll now move to a quick Q&A with the audience. So are there any questions here? Anyone has about what we've spoken about today or anything else for that matter I have a question that's largely open to the panel. Obviously the key thing of this is in regards to the climate crisis So there's going to be you know two parts of this question that will kind of intersect with half the panel Geopolitics and business side of things Obviously, we've seen huge opposition from businesses particularly in fossil fuels and extraction Manufacturing that have seen large oppositions and acquisitions of hydrogen based projects as early as the early 2000s in order to suppress them to keep the advantage of fossil fuels what Roll do states have in kind of aligning the incentives with these kinds of be fossil fuel extractors to pivot into green energy Are areas like you know green tech as well as hydrogen extraction Just before I answer can we get just before people ask questions. Can you just say your name and where you're going to? Thanks, Liam Big question to the panel Yeah Can I turn the question around a little bit and say that while that you're right in some in saying, you know that that business has in many ways in many aspects dug its heels in and tried to Maximize its advantage in things that maybe are not so tremendous for The climate crisis into the future what we're seeing now is businesses increasingly becoming very responsive and in some ways leading governments in areas where governments are resistant and Unwilling to make changes. We're seeing businesses take the lead and I was very Heartened to see for example just recently what happened with Chevron and Exxon over in the US where their shareholders and their stakeholders Basically said we're not we're not going in this direction in the climate denialism direction anymore We'll be going in in an entirely new direction and and we're seeing a big shift there. So It's interesting to me to see that many businesses are finding that consumer sentiment is Pushing them and driving them into taking an entirely new direction From something it's almost 180 degrees 180 degrees in some cases from where they were a couple of years ago. So that Is not answering a question about what roles states have in making businesses do things differently I think in many cases businesses are leading states for example this country But we're also seeing that this you know the consumer sentiment is starting to grow It's becoming really loud and he's becoming really powerful and that's driving businesses. So just a slight shift in the answer. I Hope that we'll do for now For Gary, I hate to throw you here. Look, I'll be very brief The only comment Meredith comment triggers with me is we're all familiar with the sustainable development goals, right? Okay And they replace the millennial goals, you know for a decade and a half ago and a tremendously complicated Negotiation tremendously complicated Piece of work, but a very good piece of work and what I want to point out is it not only for governments And what policy should be for governments on sustainability? But the interesting thing is businesses who are actually taking the SDG is their goals and Writing them into their forward strategic planning accepting those as the boundaries for the planet within and the ecosystem within which they're going to work and and a good number of The major companies and multinationals in the world also domestic, but have taken the SDGs on that basis now This is a really a creative shift frankly. Yeah Thank you for that Gary any other questions from the floor previously talked about which was one of the things on tech destruction and I really like how you talked about the effect of AI and I actually wanted to know what digital policy is in the inside in effective implementation and close interaction Probably especially with business in government because countries like Taiwan have kind of merged that on the policy and listening to the people more engaged in a closer look into the social movement. Do you see that as a foreseeable event in the future where the digital policy Accessible to public in that way for businesses as well as the social I Think this question was aimed for you Meredith. Did you did you get that? These are too hard these questions each people are too clever Um, I didn't entirely catch it. So I was just trying to write that down So whether or not digital policy might be accessible to the public. Yeah, can we could I just get a quick summary of the question? Sorry? Yeah, sorry, I'll rephrase. Oh, do you see Um, it's Australia's government or Australian government would be able to implement digital policy and make that accessible to Small like interaction with small business owners in general public to get an idea of today's social movement So are you talking about kind of accessing consumer sentiment? Um, yeah on that online Question that government angle for Gary, but I'm sure that the Australian government could could do that Um, there's a lot of tools and capabilities available KPMG has some for accessing consumer sentiment and understanding where people want to take things if that's what you mean and The ability is there and I would imagine that government is is using it businesses Certainly are to find out what consumers are thinking and to tailor their strategies accordingly So, uh, it's it's certainly possible. Um, and I think from a business point of view It's highly desirable, um, but I'll hand over to Gary for from a government point of view Thank you. Um, look, obviously businesses. It's a big preoccupation for business because it's the way of the future So we've got to be totally in control of what's happening on the digital side because they need to be able to leverage Um, uh, existing digital platforms, but also digital change. So That that happens. I think if I understand you, um, I'm not quite sure because I don't quite know what the Taiwanese have done But you're saying that there is a government policy or are you saying a government policy which tries to make Uh, the average citizen and so on so much more literate in terms of what digital Possibility what's happening digitally what the possibilities are but potentially also the risks is that Yeah, yeah, I mean, uh, government. I think is um, well individual business policies that both federal government and state governments have Got a huge focus on digital opportunity the way of the future. We all know that you've got to instrumentalize Um, uh, all of that to you know achieve better change blah blah blah all of that kind of stuff. We understand It's the risk element. I think where government is increasingly Taking a role to engage with business To explain the sort of the risks of cyber activity interference And all the rest of it And that's that that is a growth industry with government and business. I have to say now Because um, there is we all know a huge amount of cyber intrusion and all the rest And people think that's all just a geopolitical thing and it is but it's also aimed at getting whatever information can be pulled out Of different, um, you know technology platforms and business platforms in order to get it a technological and economic advantage Um, I mean, you know, the russians are very good at this. The chinese are very good at it You know all this business about the theft of industrial property and everything else is true And and it it goes beyond just business, of course In fact the department of foreign affairs and trade gets more cyber intrusion every single day than any other institution in the country It's interesting. It runs into tens of thousands of Of intrusions of various kinds Every few months. So all of that risk the government is very much focused on that risk If you want to talk about artificial intelligence, I'm a great believer in terminator three rise of the machines And I think that's the greatest risk of human race in the future. But that's another set of issues That's a bit of an overstate but but not entirely Because there's too much unregulation in that area and that's where rules are needed when we talked about rules earlier on and where There is increasingly a focus. I mean the g7 touched on this the other day But we're playing catch-up on all of that. Yeah Well, I have a question for you actually Doug Um, we've heard a lot about, you know, the importance of people to people links Um, you know, the the rapid pace of of technology terminator infinity You know among all of this, you know jay, for example touched on the importance of the diaspora in australia and making those links What do you see the role of? You know young australian entrepreneurs in in building relationships and engaging with the end of pacific great question um I was hoping To be included in the in the last round of questions as well. Um on this basically the same the same question So where where I think you have a unique opportunity is You are studying Uh with foreign students, you know, you have been studying with foreign students. You have relationships uh with young probably Representatives of very wealthy families private capital Who have got an enormous their parents have sent them out here and they have enormous plans for them So you can't achieve anything Within the Indo pacific region on your own you have to have a partner and you have to have a cohort Of colleagues. So I think if you could focus in on on this this issue of digital technology Whether it's ai or fintech or medtech or edgitech health tech AI cyber security Plus matching it with private capital Through the relationships that you develop at a young age and grow with And then finally gary, I can't help but say I think we need to put a disproportionate amount of effort into indonesia um our nearest neighbor um and I think that uh You know in terms of picking picking winners that would be incredibly Well received, you know, their president has been out here twice In his um in his in recent history at least as he's been the president And there's a there's a deep attraction For for australian capital know-how And cross-border people to people links with indonesia, and I think you know if I was your age That's that's where I would be aiming There vietnam and of course the diaspora We're a multicultural country and and I hope that we all see each other as First and foremost Australians and what worries me a little bit about is about when that There's there's division within our society. We can't allow that to happen We are the we are the gatekeepers of of unity in australia And I think that by by doing that in a very genuine way, we will build deeper relationships with people that are Living here, perhaps not having the easiest of times and that will that will stand you in very good stead to grow Your careers with the with this amazing cohort who will as I said go on to the great things Good answer No small question So my name's stanford. I'm was a new climate plan scholar in 2018 But it was abroad in a single core japan and south korea for around two years Um, so when I was over there, I was really interested in sort of the technology scene and Doug You mentioned something about I guess venture capital and sort of the private financing technology ventures I'm really passionate about both startups and also r&d how that's you know, how the labor I guess how you get high technology labor in the first place Which is a tremendous sort of geographical sort of issue of how do we get higher levels sort of so high tech talent The different startups across the world and the other thing is financing, right? There's sort of sort of government financing into r&d and promoting that I know that china is for example When the largest sort of finances of r&d domestically or so internationally I just wanted to ask the entire panel sort of what is your opinion or you know, you know Have a look into the state of affairs with How sort of high technology startups and r&d is done throughout the region And the relationship with australia because obviously we have a lot of I guess Um protectionism domestically in these countries Where they keep the talent locally the capital is local But actually everyone benefit it was more regionalized in general or internationalized Is not flowing, you know, just the united states, but also an apex sort of way So just wanted to extend that thought and see what opinions are Maybe I'll start yeah, um from the china perspective I definitely see that as an area with Increasingly see more and more interest of investors from china looking for good technologies in australia the r&d is, you know Early-stage technologies, you know fintechs and they want to invest into this technology again. Their goal is to You know further develop this technology make it tailored and bring that back to china I think what they know that there's lots of good ideas creative new technologies Outside of china, but the best way the best market to apply this technology is actually in china So we definitely see lots of interest making queries in the fintech space as well You know, lots of the digital bankings lots of fintech and other creative technologies and We got investors even Trying to find a technology It's like you just need to give them Like a little dip into your mouth and then they can tell in the next five years What kind of disease you may have, you know, china is crazy about this kind of If you have anything like this, we'll be very keen to invest So there's definitely interest but because they are early stage not large-scale commercialized technologies So the investment is fairly small. So you usually not be noticed And also the investors are mostly private business from china or could be a founder could be consortium from china You know making a 15 30 percent. So this kind of activity usually below the radar You want to see much reported in the media is usually the headline stories, you know Someone quite a port in australia or a big big industrial project may get reported But there are lots happening in the technology space and lots of our clients even the for instance there's one major investor from china they actually 90 percent of their business in china is around agricultural But what they're looking for now is new technologies a i related to technologies and digital banking, you know fintech technologies There's any, you know anything. We're very interested to have a look in that space So we're definitely to see interest there. It's just we're yet to say yet to see some large scale kind of a headline type of project I know the The last federal budget had a specific call out to to the financing And the exploration the growth of certain technologies And the federal government's also very keen and publicly trying to attract The leading technologists not just from silicon valley, but also from asia where frankly China, you know, singapore japan that they lead the way and if we can attract those people to bring their capital their ideas and their families Yeah, australia is a very attractive place At the moment and once the board is open So we do have the ability if we if we execute if we execute that's I think your point as well to to attract and reposition australia's whole economy Gradually, okay, we've got to pay the strength We produce the highest quality iron ore and the highest quality Coking coal the cleanest burning So that will be something that that gradually phases out at the time But if we can balance that with the growth of of attracting technology and growing it in australia But we're in the same time zone. It's an it's an easy win for australia Just the dug's point. I think immigration policy and programs like the the global talent program, which is a new program focused on highly skilled professions and technology and sub sectors within that are a part of you know the target To to attract that sort of you know capital know-how Into australia The other thing I'd mentioned is that you know the Indian and I touched on this you know when I spoke earlier, but the Indian tech companies Traditionally have sort of you know Delivered here in Australia as well as around the world based on an on-shore offshore model So, you know, basically housing, you know, the the core capability in India and then sort of you know delivering through through small teams in in On the ground, but they've made a conscious move to actually, you know have a greater footprint in country And so what comes with that is greater capability skill development within the local market. And you know, we we have seen that in australia So I think they're doing that a little bit as well One of the problems is shifting the perception of australia, of course by people You know the business people and everybody else, not even governments In the region our region for example about what we are capable of And that does require a very dedicated program and extensive program To to showcase what we've done in the technology area There was a report published was it earlier this year. I think it was By the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore It does a regular report of elite Views about different countries and what what benefit they are to you. And this is Southeast Asia And this is an elite business group and a bit of government all the rest of it and Who are the people that Who were poll, you know, the the responses were the the countries the areas in which we are most interested You know, this is the elite and southeast Asia because what they can deliver and they're thinking economically Technology and so and not the politics to get the politics EU and Japan Right up there with the percentages saying yep, it's the EU. It's the Europeans and the Japanese right up there You know 40 percent 43 percent of people fit there, you know for the EU and Japan was kind of, you know almost 38 percent or something australia Was some way down the bottom And I think it was about three or four percent or something. I mean it was, you know just as a graphic of A elite assessments of people who are doing stuff and are thinking about what are the technology connections the economic connections That can deliver stuff to us to them And we're just not on the radar I mean they're individual cases. I think the Australian diaspora overseas Probably play play very strongly. They do very well, but it's a shift in perception Very hard, but you got to do it Well on that note, we're nearly out of time, but perhaps since we've taken a look through time today at what now Um, I might ask all the panelists just for a few words on what's next. So can I start with you Jay? What's what's next for Australia's position in the Indo-Pacific? And I think from my perspective, um, the board is open James and um, if I think about India and the australian bilateral relationship um For australia at least India is a place, you know, you need to touch and feel and smell Um, and and and it's you know heavy on relationships Um, so actually being able to be on the ground there spend the time develop those relationships Navigate what you need to navigate to meet your objective Very nice. Kechi Okay, so um in terms of the Japanese investment To to australia, I guess that will continue. So if you look at what happened in the past 10 years, there's been quite a lot of hyperfire M&A activity, you can see you be, you know, 90% beer drinking Australia is actually Japanese zone um, but yeah, that's going to continue and because Unlike australia, so japan's domestic economy is shrinking So basically in the net phases and the population is decreased by 500 000 each year That's really because you know aging population or the migration policies or the domestic economy is shrinking. So They really need to go overseas to grow their business in order to survive because you know, they stay domestically and are going to survive So australia is definitely um, favorite place to be and given this, you know, 50 years old Very very strong trades and investment to spend on relationships. So yeah, this is definitely going to continue to flourish And how on From china perspective, I think we're definitely moving away from the mega investment project by the state-owned enterprises to private investors from china As well as the local chinese australian entrepreneurs. I didn't have a chance to mention yet. So dagen myself We we just did another area of studying chinese business community in australia. These are surprisingly These are chinese students who came to study in australia in the 90s in the early 2000 And they stayed in australia and set up their own business and became very successful entrepreneurs in this country And what they do they help to sell australian products and services to the chinese market So to me from, you know, stay owned Moving to private investors and private entrepreneurs in australia. It's definitely the trend And meredin I might jump over to you Sure. Um, so I think um, what's next for australia's position in the indio-pacific I've liked the way that gary described. Um, when we're looking at this region as a fulcrum in the geostrategic competition between china and the us or the way that the world's dividing and australia's position in the indio-pacific Our ongoing well-being and our ongoing economic success depends on managing this Our position in relationship to this bifurcation very very carefully and we can't do that by ourselves We cannot just be alone in in trying to navigate these complexities. We need our neighbors and we need our region and to do that, I think we could do a better job of Listen when we talk about engagement genuine engagement listening with real respect and real humility to our neighbors experiences and our neighbors Knowledge of how to navigate difficult geopolitical challenges. And so we don't just rely on neighborly rhetoric talking a big game But not putting both our money and our actions into that as well And I've really heard a lot from um southeast asian counterparts In the past talking about how australia likes to tell them how they should manage this How they should manage the geostrategic competition How they should manage their challenges with china and I think we could do a lot to to listen And learn as well because we're going to need to work together to manage these challenges And gary on a southeast asian note. Oh gosh Now I don't want to give the impression the government is not doing anything There's a lot of dedicated policy to the region there is But the point is um to do more Because we're at a profound point for the region where we need to do more to be able to influence The way the division the fault line is going to evolve and so on So it's to make ourselves in many ways a sort of um A really stronger organic part of the region at the operational level the daily level all of that Leave aside the political Alignments and all the rest of it because um countries are intelligent They know what they're doing on the political side. They make their own judgments It's just that they won't talk about them necessarily A lot of countries in the region. Why would you? But they want options they need options But they want options and I'm talking about the daily stuff to build themselves up as resilient countries Strengthen their ability to be out of cope with this incredible change and the pace and rate of change And that's where we come into play And we can do more we can do we're doing a lot But we need to do more. Yeah And finally Doug Well, I just had my second COVID vaccination today So I think the first thing we're doing next is is trying to vaccinate As many people in Australia as we possibly can and then start exporting We're a generous we're a wealthy nation. We need to start exporting our our vaccinations to to the region And then as as individuals as business people We just have to be increasingly aware of the geo politics and the geo economics Read it, you know, get get multiple perspectives. I would encourage you to think about joining You know, Asia society or Asia link or other other groups that enable you to to get access to information That you wouldn't necessarily just read in the in the mainstream newspapers To continue to understand what what what you can can do to to build relationships and you know James, I think today's been it's been a great a great start there in in terms of What's next but who knows, you know, it's such a dynamic region so many opportunities So many things that you didn't think were possible are emerging And I think that thank goodness we have such such great talent coming through our universities to be able to to capitalise Because you guys in many ways know more about the details around the technology and the digital transformation than than many many others So, you know, it's it's a shared responsibility from here on in Well on that note, uh, I'd like to finish today and and thanks to all our wonderful panelists for spending so much time We know you're very busy and we appreciate each and every minute and all of your your comments and views So if you could all put your hands together for them And uh, I think on that note, we will leave all of our online compatriots and talk to you later