 Hello and a warm welcome to NewsClick and your host, Neelu Vyas, with a special program called Point of View, which brings you discussions, analysis, debates from the polebound states. This is a program which cuts the clutter and tries to bring sense to the chaos. Today, we are going to talk about the battleground Goa, the smallest state with 40 with Hansabha constituencies. There is a BJP, there is a Congress, but this time in the year 2022, it looks like a quadrangular fight with the X factors because of the presence of our party and the three in a mood Congress. What is the mood of the voter? What are the issues in this coastal state which are resonating in this election? And which way the voters will swing? But the biggest question right now in front of everyone is that can the grand old party Congress dethrone BJP this year and come back to power after 10 years? Joining me on the show, former Chief Minister of Goa and Congress veteran, Digambar Kamat. Mr. Kamat, welcome on NewsClick. Thank you. Mr. Kamat, my first question to you is that how difficult is this election really for Congress? I would not say that the election is difficult, but yes, we all will have to work hard. There is no doubt about it because Congress has regained all the strength which we are feeling that we have lost when 10 ML is defective. But one bold decision we took that these 10 defectors shall not be admitted to the party at any cost. Rahulji also spelled out the same policy. And today we see that the defectors have remained out of Congress bound and they are now struggling to get reelected. People have really appreciated that that Congress first time in the history in the state of Goa have decided not to admit a single defector in its party. This has given a clear message to the people of Goa. But why do you think that the people defected from the party? You really recently also had a symbolic oathstaking where the legislators pledged that they will not quit the Congress party. But why do you think were the people leaving Congress? If you look at Goa's politics right from 1990s there were days when we had three chief ministers in two days. So that has been the maximum anti-defection crazies before the courts were from Goa. So Goa had that sort of tradition right from beginning. But today the educated people now the people are getting younger generation and getting educated. Young generation knows the things in the right perspective and they feel that they should stop. Under no circumstances they should be allowed to continue. And that is why we are getting a tremendous support from the general public. Yes, you are taking a good stand of not admitting any single defector without bothering about the inability capacity whether he's able to win or not, we are not bothered. But we said no compromise with respect to defectors. Now, when we went to take the pledge there was a perception amongst the people that the Congress party should take precaution to see that nothing happens like this. And one suggestion which came was that Goans by and large have full faith in their religion irrespective of caste, creed, and community. If you are Hindu, you have faith in your religion. If you are Catholics, you have faith in your Muslim. But how confident are you that the legislators will not violate that oath? Because it has happened in the past. This time you have seen, you have new faces. God gave us an opportunity to select new faces which people expected. Many of our veteran leaders left. They left to join other parties. But that was a good thing and what was to happen. And probably God wanted that this thing to happen. And today out of 40, we have nearly 30, 35 new faces which are given to the people of Goa which people have been saying that, yes, Congress should come with the new faces. That's a good advantage. Mr. Kamat, whatever new experiments the Congress party is doing, but if you look at the opinion polls surveys which have come recently, they all are giving BJP anywhere seats between 15 and 20. So which means that... I do not believe in these opinion polls. These polls are all formulated by the state interest. Today you can get any poll done anytime and get it on any channel and start discussion. That has no meaning. You have to come to Goa, visit Goa, meet the people, see the mood of the people. People are angry with the ruling dispensation. I don't think anybody who has lost people in the COVID mismanagement will ever think of voting for BJP. 3,500 people have died here because of the mismanagement. 300 people have died because of shortage of oxygen. They have not died. They have been murdered by this government. I will make a categorical statement because this is a responsibility of the government to supply oxygen. What the hell they were doing when people were dying. People had to file a PIL in the High Court and High Court expressed saying that this is what is happening. This is really a mockery of democracy. You are given a mandate to rule the state. It is your responsibility at good governance with what? You expect to take care of the health of the people of Goa and you have 3,500 people die in a population of 15 lakhs. Yesterday there have been 15 deaths. What the government is doing? 15 people are back yesterday. But Mr. Kamat, the most difficult question is that even if Congress gets numbers and looking at what happened in 2017, you have the numbers and then also the Congress, it seems, was sleeping over and couldn't form the government. Then BJP jumped into the wagon and came to power. So are you prepared this time for a plan to be supposing if you do not have the numbers? How agile the Congress is going to be? Because last time everybody remembers that they were testing little from the High Command but you were not able to form the government. Our senior observer in charge of Goa, Mr. P. Chidambaram, has categorically stated that we apologize to the people of Goa because in the last election, people have realized that BJP should be kicked out. They had kicked out the BJP. They were brought down from 21 seats to 13 seats. And we went from 9 to 17 plus 1, 18 seats. He said our leadership made some mistakes. We will see that this time those mistakes are not repeated. And he apologized to the people of Goa for having done those mistakes. He was very blunt in saying. Right. But Mr. Kamat, the constituency and the voters always look for a change. And this time in 2020, people are having a viable option in the presence of Trinamul Congress as well as Ahmadmi Party. And both are very confident that they're going to do well in Goa. So how much is the dent these parties are going to bring into Congress? And how much of the vote will they cut into? See, as far as Trinamul Congress is concerned, people have anger against this party because this party came just three, four months before. They have no contribution to the state of Goa. They have no workers. They don't have any leaders in Goa. They poached Congress leaders, took them inside. Everybody knows why they have poached Congress leaders, how they have poached Congress leaders, what were the offers given to them? That means the general perception in Goa is that TMC came to Goa thinking that Goans are wholesale for sale. We have seen the sales of clothes. We have seen the sales of garments. Like that probably they thought that Goans are also for wholesale sale. And Goans have an anger against them. They say, you are trying to buy Goans with money? Never. Goans have a clear-cut self-respect. They will work hard. They will toil hard, but they will not sell their self-respect. They are going to teach a lesson to Trinamul Congress. I always believe that Bengal and Goa were very known football teams. Their football is one of the state's sports. Both have good players. Whenever Goa and Bengal is to meet, Goa is to score goals against Bengal and send them home. I'm sure this time also Goans will send Bengal's home. And probably Mamta did he may have to say what Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said in the 64. Ajeevai Goa. But Mr. Pukama, don't you think that if you look at the hindsight, probably Congress would have done better if you would have allied with Trinamul Congress and you would have countered the mighty force of BJP better. Had you held hands with Trinamul Congress, don't you feel so? But how do you align with them? You break our own leaders and then ask us to align? I don't think any leadership will agree for such type of a proposal. If they were really serious, they should have talked to our leadership first before entering Goa. Their presence was not there here. Ajeevai, they have come here as a team of BJP. Just to sprint towards it appears and they are not targeted BJP leaders. They are targeting only Congress leaders. And now today you will be surprised. Most of the people who have joined them are started coming back. Yeah, MPP, Melendu Mamlekar came back. But are you saying... Prasad Jhankar came back. Well, all many people are leaving. There are one founder members are leaving now saying that we have got some... These about Trinamul Congress. This is not for the people. But Mr. Kamat, you are saying that Trinamul Congress is a big team of BJP. But what about Aam Admi Party? Are they also behaving like a big team of BJP? Aam Admi Party came to Goa last election also. If you see their advertisement during last election, they had said that they will get 35% hoardshare. They are hoardings, posters, banners. 35% hoardshare, 10 to 15 MLA's. What was the result? We had been telling that time. That Aam Admi will not be able to win a single seat. And that has come true. They could not win a single seat. On the contrary, most of their candidates lost their deposits. This was the reality. This election also, they have been trying to give freebies. They are saying free power, free order. Goaans are not interested in getting free power and free order. Goaans are, I said, Goaans have self-respect. They work hard. They will toil for their work and they will sustain themselves. I was the chief minister for five years between 2007 and 2012. Not a single poor Goaan came to me saying that I want free power. I want free water supply. This is the of the Goaans people. And that is why Goaans want Goaans to be ruled by Goaans. This is the thing. They don't want any outside regional parties to come and rule the state. But Mr. Kamath, what are the issues which are really resonating amongst the voters in Goa? Because I was reading about a whole lot of issues like unemployment, unemployment, that mining is a big issue. What are the real issues which the voters are looking for in the party? First issue is three linear projects. BJP government wants Goa to be a coal hub which Goaans are opposing tooth and nail. You remember when I was the chief minister, Goaans were opposing ACZs. 17 ACZs were approved. Three were notified before I took over as the chief minister. I bought to the pressure of the Goaans. I listened to their voice because in democracy, people's voice is important and the good government has to listen to the people's voice. I listened to them. I went to Congress prison. Srimati Sonia Gandhi explained to her everything. She asked me one question. What people of Goa want? I said they don't want ACZs. They stay with the people of Goa. These were her directions to me. See, that is the way with Congress party work. We scrapped the ACZs. Goa is the only state in the country and Digambar Kamath is the only chief minister of Congress who scrapped ACZs, scrapped ACZ policy. So we showed guts that people's will is supreme as far as democracy is concerned. We had also scrapped regional plan by listening to the pressure of the people. Similarly, we said scrapped three linear projects for whom you are making these three linear projects. For coal hub, for transporting coal from Goa to Karnataka, what is the benefit of Goaans? It's a clear cut. All Goaans are up in arms against this double trekking of line, cutting off 75,000 trees. If you want to cut a single tree, you have to cut 10 times, 15 times the forest department. Here, you are trying to cut 75,000 trees and that also in a wildlife century. You are trying to... Apart from these development to projects, Mr. Kamath, Arvind Kejewal has been promising pilgrimage tours to Ayodhya and likewise, these kind of pseudo religious issues... They are promising lots of things because they know they can't come to power. Party which doesn't come to power, we just know these of coming to power can promise anything. They can promise even moon and sun. Now, they are distributing cards. Ahmadmi Party is distributing cards. Arvind Kejewal's guarantee, 5,000 rupees. Trinamal Congress is distributing card, 10,000 rupees. Now, some old ladies went to that card to the banks saying that they want to withdraw 5,000. The banks told them these are duplicate cards. These are nothing to do with the bank cards. One lady came to me, my house, saying that, sir, you had given these cards, please give me 5,000 rupees. I said, I have not given this card. The person who has given this card stays in Delhi. If you want to go to Delhi, I will bear your travelling expenses by train. You have to find out that person and get 5,000 rupees. People will not get fooled like this. Now, you are talking about these assurances. In 2017, BJP said they will give unemployment allowance of 4,000 rupees per month. And they started going and filling forms from the uneducated youth who don't have employment. Our people told them, they are not interested in filling the forms. If you want to really help us and take our support, give us six months advance. You give us six months advance, then we will think of. What is the use of these cards? You are fooling the people. Goans are not going to be filled. Goa has high rate of literacy, high per capita income. For whom you are distributing these cards? What is the meaning of these cards? These are all assurances which they cannot even think of fulfilling. And they are simply fooling them. Mr. Kamath, in every state, there is one dominant factor throughout India which is being talked about and that is the Modi factor. How much is the presence of Narendra Modi going to matter to the Goans really in this election? Goa is totally different. In 2017 also, Goans voted against BJP. You see, that's what I have told you. From 21 states, BJP came down to 13. In this election, I am sure BJP from 13 may come down to 8 or 9. They are all the top, the former Chief Minister, Mr. Parsekar, has resigned this contest. The former Chief Minister, son has been denied a ticket, he is contesting. See, you see the situation of the party here. No, but you are saying that when Narendra Modi starts bombarding the poll landscape with his rallies and virtual rallies, it's not going to matter too much. It didn't have any impact in 2017. Otherwise, why we would have gone from 9 to 17 plus 1, 18? That is what I am saying. I again remind you the words of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Ajeevai Goa Kello. These words, everybody will have to keep in mind. And that is why in 2017, BJP was reduced from 21 to 13. They might have been able to form the government because they were ruling in itself, but they came down to 13. This is the reality. Goans are in no mood to support and bring this dispensation back. See, their Lokayukta has passed orders in 21 cases involving lots of office bearers and these party people, ministers. Not a single order has been till today acted upon. It is lying there. Former governor of Goa directly said that this is the worst and corrupt government, which is there in Goa. So, which means you were saying that Congress this time is very confident of dethroning BJP after 10 years, right? Yes, exactly because we see the pulse of the people. Wherever we go, people are responding to us saying that, yes, Congress must come this time to power. Show them their place. They have damaged us. They have damaged us in all sectors. Taxiwala, Rikshawala, motorcycle pilot, they are crying for money. They are comparing my period of five years with 10 years period of the BJP. My period of five years. Mr. Kamath, tell me one thing. 2007 to 2012 was considered as the period of prosperity where poor people had money in their hand. Whereas BJP's rule of 2012 to 2022 is considered as the period of poverty where people don't have money. Common man is crying. Right. But Mr. Kamath, BJP has a promote sovereign. But who is Congress's chief ministerial candidate because people keep putting allegations that there is rampant factionalism in Congress and which is why Congress will go down the dumps. That is the kind of perception which is being laid out in Delhi in the political corridors of power. Now there are hardly any leaders rebelling in Congress, preferably except me. Most of the leaders have joined other parties. But party's policy is very clear. They take a decision based on their assessment as whether after the election or before the election that is left to the leadership. So I don't get disturbed by that. I am all out moving across the state to see that people are galvanized, people are motivated and we see that Congress comes back to power. So am I speaking to the prospective chief minister of Goa? I am a strong believer in God. In 2007, when I was made the chief minister by Congress president, I had not even dreamt of becoming a chief minister. I was not in the race, it's a fact. But if something is written in your this, nobody can take it up. No, but there aren't many faces to be the chief minister. So that's what I asked you that you're confident of becoming the chief minister if Congress comes back to power? I am confident of getting Congress party back to power. Now in whose, whose Naseeb chief minister's chief is written is only God can tell you. I can't tell you. So who else is there apart from Mr. November Kamath? If it is written in my Naseeb, then nobody can snatch it. And if it is not written in my Naseeb, I will not get it. This is my logic and this is my way of thinking. Mr. Kamath, who else is the chief ministerial face apart from you in Congress? That party will take a call at appropriate time. Okay. That's quite a diplomatic answer, but thanks for taking all the questions with a straight back, Mr. Kamath. We show all the best. You have a long day with a heavy campaign trail. We show all the best. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Neil. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Pleasure talking to you.