 I'm Dave Davis, and September's What's Neat this week starts right now. This is What's Neat for September 2017. I'm your host Ken Patterson, and this month we go and visit the St. Louis prototype modelers meet held in Collinsville, St. Louis, Missouri here. And this show this year was fantastic. There was 25,000 square feet of floor and models and everything to be seen, which I think was about 30% larger than last year. I counted 15 new manufacturers, and in fact we interview seven of them for the show. They show us their new products, and we also interview two great modelers. So this is a really nice episode this month, about 40 minutes for September. Now I am sitting at the round table, which we are now using to launch a new What's Neat this week podcast. Chris Palomeras and all the guys that we hang out with, and a lot of folks that we're going to interview have all been helping out as a group. We've figured this out, we've come up with a method where we can produce the show very quickly, cost virtually nothing to do it, and at the same time it'll keep you updated every week with what's new in model rarouting, in addition to the What's Neat video that we do for model rarout hobbyist magazine every month. So that's the news this month is a brand new table to work from, where we will conduct interviews for this new weekly podcast. One last thing I'd like to say, there's been a lot of people over the years that have asked me about purchasing my photographs online, and a lot of times they'd like to get autographed prints. I've made arrangements with a website called FineArtAmerica.com, where as I can now sell my photography, my beautiful model rarout photographs, some of the better ones that I think we've made over the years, where you can purchase them, have them hung up in your home, and they'll ship it right to you. They'll frame it, shoot, they'll put it on coffee mugs and towels if you want, but check it out, this is something, a new venture that I'm launching here, and all the proceeds are going to go back to the What's Neat show, so that we can keep producing good content. That's FineArtAmerica.com, and then you'll index the word Ken Patterson, in order to get to the site with all of the photographs, and I currently have 25 of them online right now, that can be purchased and printed out in various sizes. Otherwise, let's now continue on with the rest of this month's September What's Neat, the St. Louis prototype modelers meet. Hi, I'm Stephen Freist, and we're watching What's Neat This Week with Ken Patterson. In this segment of What's Neat, I've got gene foods better than that for almost 30 years. I used to work with Bob Bickley over at Intermountain, and one of the things that we tried to do when I started working for them was to create model ads where all the models were weathered, to give them credibility. This was a shot from about 1992 that I had done for them, and today I've got Gene Fusco from Intermountain, and he's here in St. Louis at the prototype modelers meet, and Gene, I want to ask you, tell us what's new in the lineup today. Okay, today we brought our Tier 4 Gevos. We have five of our pre-production samples that came fresh from the factory about two weeks ago, and we've been running around our test track here and showing it off to people. The factory is currently in production. We hope to have them out in mid-July. Now, I'm telling you, these are some beautiful models. I was looking at the radiators on them. It just looks fantastic. This is all new tooling, is that right? That's correct. It's all new tooling. Do these have sound in them? They have sound. The ones I brought do not have sound. This factory only sent us one sound sample, and the guys at the shop wouldn't let me take that with me. Now, do you guys design your own sound system, or whose sound do you use? ESU, low sound. And Matt Herman at ESU helped out. He went out and recorded Gevos special for us, and that is our own sound file. These are absolutely beautiful models. Now, you said you had something new, an end scale? We have our SD-40-2 locomotives. We've been working through all the different road names that we've announced on them, and those are available now, shipping to our dealers and customers. The end scale guys will be excited about that, and they always say we don't have enough end scale on the show, and I tell you, these models are beautiful, as you can see from this footage that you're looking at right now. Now, Gene, welcome to the industry. You said you've been in the hobby working for Intermountain for about four and a half years. That's correct. But you've got a very long background in this industry. You want to elaborate a little bit about yourself? Sure. Most people probably remember me from my rail yard model days. I started that company in 2002, and ran for about 10 years, 2012. I seem to remember those. Those were those beautiful urethane kits, just when that was kind of a new mode in the market. Yeah, we kind of expanded on the present take of the urethane models. We added a lot of new features. My kits featured a lot of etched metal parts, and we broke into the industry with CD-ROM instructions. So, rather than one or two pages of photocopied instructions that people were used to with those models, we ended up giving them 40, 50, sometimes 100 pages of full color instructions that they put on their computer blow up and look at in large detail. So it was an article with a model? Yes. And on the CD, I was able to include history, roster information, prototype photographs. So it was kind of a breakthrough. Are those kits still available? Are you doing that on the side? No, I don't do that anymore. Basically, it's all in the used market right now, secondhand. Have you been a modeler for years? For years, since I'm about five or six years old. You're exactly the kind of person that Intermountain needs, but listen, thank you very much for the few seconds here on the show telling us about your new product, and welcome to the prototype modelers meet. We hope you come back next year. Thank you, Ken. Thank you. For this segment, I've got Blaine Hatfield from Exact Rail, one of the more respected companies in the industry, been in business for between seven and eight years, I'm going to say, as I sound about right, and the models that they have come with have just been knock your socks off, detailed to the nines, and that's the type of product, and that's the level of brand that Exact Rail has become, but it's really neat to meet you and have you on what's neat, because you're just so respected in the industry, Blaine, and I'd like to get a couple words from you about your company and how it's been going so far in these past years. Absolutely. So I've been with Exact Rail almost since the beginning. The company was founded in 2007, but it didn't start launching product until it wasn't known to the public until 2009. That happened in January. I came on board in June as a product manager, and I'm currently a vice president. Where are you all located at? What part of the country? So we're from Utah. Okay, God's a beautiful place, Utah up there, and you've got a couple models here. Now these are new models that you've introduced this year. What have you got here? Yeah, so the most recent model that we've released is the Southern Pacific G100-22 gun. It's a signature car, which means the Southern Pacific was the only original owner of the car. In the 22 class, they had 100 cars. They had a different class. It was very, very similar with an additional 100 cars. So this is a very, very unique car for the SP, but one that honestly has been quite well received. Okay. What else you got? We have some new paint schemes that have been popular. Okay. Coming to a show like St. Louis, we have a tendency to cherry pick from our inventory, those things that best serve the geographic here. Our Trinity 64 foot churn cool reefer has for the first time this paint scheme. These cars starting in the late 1990s because of the graffiti had their reporting marks moved high on the car. We've matched all car numbers to cars that actually had that done and reproduced those paint schemes authentically. It's been a really popular paint scheme for us, and as it is, we're almost sold out. So that's a good time to show it to your viewers. It's sort of there. Tell us about your Southern car real quick here. Is that the waffle side car? It is. It's potentially one of the most popular cars that Exact Rel has offered. It's the Pullman Standard 5277 waffle box car. This in the 1971 as delivered paint scheme. So this is one of the early paint schemes for these deliveries of cars, which of course were many. About how many cars do you think you have in your total line now? Where do you add on that? So in total we have 65 cars. 65 different. A lot of work. You guys are working. That's a lot to keep track of. I know there's a question that's been in the minds of a lot of modelers and manufacturers over the years, and that's when you all made the company policy to go full internet for sales. Not so much with the dealers and just more or less see if the internet would... How did that work out? Right. Mixed results, I would say, is probably the best answer. In the end it has served us well. You made the decision to go B to C, distribution, business to consumer, three years ago and at this point we're sticking with it. We're not making any changes. Very good. So there's evidence of how we feel about the model. That's what we're doing. You're respected in the industry and you're a real go-getter with that many models in the market. It's an honor to talk to you on what's neat. So thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, now we've got Bob Rivard from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Now we all know Bob, because Bob, you've been doing articles in the model press for a good 35 years. I know you and I both worked in Real Model Journal back in 87, 88, doing articles for Bob Schleicher. And now here at the prototype modelers meet here in St. Louis, tell us about the gorgeous table full of models you brought with you today. Oh my God, well deciding what to take, of course, and what to pack up, and this is... I made an attempt here at least, so I hope the guys are enjoying what I brought down here. You've got large scale and ICHO scale. Well, of course I bought the G scale, the large scale, to get your attention, of course. Right. Because I know you're into that, I see your videos and I always see your gorgeous railroad and your trestle, and I also ended up building, scratch building a trestle around my pine tree and it actually performs the serve, the actually, like the Tehachapi Loop to get gradient to make elevation in my backyards on a slope. So the trestle served a couple purposes there. This is really nice, now you've got a wood load here and then of course I see a bulldozer load, just beautiful models and then of course this model is a battery powered locomotive with full lights and sound, so it's like dead rail, isn't that right? Something where you don't have to have trestle power. This is called, Marv Kona got me into air, it's called air wire. So it goes through the air just like a model airplane. So it's very cool and of course G scale, nice thing about G scale, your models, like when you were a kid the 125th scale models, there's the Caterpillar D8, a must if you want a nice load, but yeah, it's a neat aspect of the hobby, the G scale. Your combine loads and your HO scale weathering is just beyond anything, it's so beautiful. Thanks Ken, the Walther's makes the combine loads and they're back in production so you can get these again. Oh that was very nice, I can see a lot of people putting that on their list. And of course one of the cool things not about the internet, you can find photos of anything, so if I want to do a freight car, here's this Rock Island box car, the exact car. And of course in 1977 things become faded, so I'm of course Frank Jordan and I are paint guys, so we're always painting and decaling, I'm trying to match the paint as best I can. It's almost a pen central Jade Green, but so there's my paint samples as I was painting this car. Bob, let me ask you one more question now, since you've been an author for so long in the industry, are you still actively writing articles? I am, in fact, I see a lot of your things, you post of course your videos on MRH, and I talked to Joe quite a bit and I just talked to him last month, I sent him just recently, I wrote up a suit, 2500A and the 700, which are both restored and are in service to this day up at the Duluth Transportation Museum. Let me ask you this question now, you've been writing for so long and I just got asked a question a few minutes ago, somebody said well how is it that I even get into the article writing business, or how do I meet these people, what would you suggest to the young folks these days that are interested in writing into journalism in our industry? Well one of the things I notice is it's online, things tend to be going online like Joe Fugates, the MRH site, right now that's my favorite place to contribute and I know magazines are still pretty cool, I was contributing for a while to the National Model Railroad Association's magazine, but I feel that online is probably where it's at right now, I really think the MRH site, I mean boy you discover people like Mike Confalon, I mean he so inspired me to weather my ties, yep, and you of course, you always inspire me with your videos and Frank Jordan, he's a fan of yours, he inspired me to come down here, so he's a Rock Island model, those are his over there, so it just worked out great coming down here. I'll tell you what, thank you for taking a few minutes with us and showing us your gorgeous models and coming to St. Louis and I hope to see you again next year. Yeah, no kidding, that was a great can, we'll talk to you very much. Okay I've got Dave Hussey with me and this year he's got four new freight cars in his line, in the cannon line, Dave you want to tell us about your four? Okay, thanks Kenny, it's good seeing you again, I've got four laser cut freight cars, two of them are Burlington cars, XML-14 and XML-16, a Burlington Northern Pullman Standard Plate C car and a Milwaukee PCNF car that you know, in the yellow scheme this year, it's similar to the car we did a couple years ago. Well it's a lot of work, four new cars in one year, a lot of computer time and development, good for you, so how many cars do you have total in your line? Probably close to 20, 18. 20 different cars and we can find these on your website, the Canon and Company website? Canon and Co.net, W-W-W, Canon and Co.net and there's a shopping cart there, the freight cars are direct only and they are laser cut styrene but the kits include the roofs, ends and under frames so the modelers still have to take in supply. And they're not really that expensive, they're all around 40 to 50 dollars, some of them in the 30s, so this is really an economical kit. Now I know last year you told us about your wood loads, how did that do for you in the past year? Has that been working out? The wood loads are working out really well, they're very popular, what I've done so far is they're 10 sticks, they're laser engraved on the side of all 10 of them and on the tops of four of them, these are the ones I'm doing right now are specifically, the whole piece is 56 feet long so it fits in like the wheels of time flat car and have various combinations of 2x4, 2x6, 4x4, 4x6 and 6x6 is what I brought here today. That's nice, that's nice. Well Dave, again thanks for coming back to St. Louis. Hey, great to see you buddy. Thanks. The one I'm really excited about is that we're seeing so many new manufacturers here this year, I've counted 15 total new manufacturers that weren't at the show last year and I've got Paul Federiconi from Details West came all the way from California to the show today. Paul, tell us a little bit about your new products because you're keeping the line current. Okay, well I have the new GPS antenna for modern Das9 GeVos I have new frogs and track details over here my line of accurate signals, GRSs and USNS signals and I've got some switch stands, ground throws two new switch stands over here. Yeah, those switch stands really look nice. What's a price point on something like that? $10 or something? No, less than that, two in a package for $3.50. No kidding, for $3.50 I could dress up my turnout and make it look that much better. And that's the Manganese frog I see you're making. That's the new frog the railroads are using. You say they last longer. You make that prototype part so we can add to our track detail. Right, right. Unless you've still got your full line of detail parts. Oh yeah, I have over 300 post lines. 300, that's amazing, that's amazing. Now do you feel that this show is really your audience if you had good reception here? This show is my audience. There's a lot of prototype models here. I like the location, middle of the country and St. Louis, the people from the west and the east come over here. It's a great show. It is, there's a great endorsement. Well listen, thank you very much for a few minutes here on what's neat about your new products. You're welcome, thank you. Now I'm with Scott Thornton and we're going to get an update on the Protothrottle that we talked about last year. That was the new throttle that allows us to run a train like a real locomotive engineer because it's got all the features in the cab. Well Scott's progressed an awful lot in the last 12 months where he's got production models available where we can see what they're going to look like now. But give us an update Scott on the dates for when we'll be able to buy one of these at this point. Well thank you Ken. Dates sometime in 2018 is what we're thinking. We still have quite a bit of programming development to do as well as we have to go through, since it's a wireless unit we have to go through FCC approval. So that's where we're working toward right now. So how many months away are we you think now? Well if we can do it by just over the first of the year we'd be really happy but probably within the first six months next year. We'll keep updated on this because there's a lot of people that have played with this and messed with this throttle at the show including myself and I gotta tell you I do not know how to run a real train. And it's just opened up a whole other avenue of education to learn how to do something and I think it's fascinating. Yeah thanks Ken. The thing that we're learning is that model railroaders operate generally speaking too fast and we were pleasantly surprised to see when they were using the proto throttle it slowed them down they had to think about what they were doing as a real engineer would so that was exciting. That's really cool. Well thank you for sharing this with us and we look forward to an update. Thanks, appreciate it. Okay. I'm sitting with Jeff Parker from Central Valley Models there's a name that goes back a long way Jeff. Tell me I see you've got a brand new single line structure here what's about this bridge? Yeah this bridge here is a labor of love for me and a passion I love the geometry in these bridges and I try to implement every bit of hindsight into every project so the evolution here has been tremendous and my learning curve is accelerated to a point where I'm extremely excited about future bridges future deck trusses, pony trusses all kinds of steel structures you name it it can be built from steel and that's the US the United States has made stuff since that we have inherited and we're losing that because it's being replaced it's rusting away it's wearing out and having these beautiful works of art it's just a passion of mine so you're preserving history you're modeling history I believe I am to myself and a lot of other people too Now a lot of guys are going to be excited about this single track bridge because so many of us model single track what's the price point on this product? It's retailing right now for $68.95 I'm sorry $67.95 That's available at hobby shops? Hobby shops, Walters, Microscale or not Mike I'm sorry I apologize for that but Micromark has them and everybody has them I can't think of the names of the places They look absolutely dynamite but I know I know where one of these are going to fit so it sounds like a segment where I'm going to build one of these and I think we should show the folks out there how easy they are to lay out and build it's just a matter of Yeah they're time consuming A lot of people they open the box and they're terrified of looking at all these parts and how am I going to build it but once you get into building one of these or if you feel like you need help it's just a phone call away I can help you out with it over the phone as best I can I'll tell you what we'll do we'll build one of these puppies and we'll make a good 8 minute segment from start to finish and show how easy it is That would be awesome Tim and I just built 11 of these and we did a production and these here we have at the show are actually for sale for people and they got damaged on the aircraft Delta Airlines threw them through the baggage chute just wonderful you know I'm really glad you came to St. Louis that was a long way for you to travel It was a very long travel We're just having a lot of fun I'm enjoying the crowd I love the crowd you know Harry Wong and all these people put effort into putting new shows on I heard people saying that this was a Super Bowl of our BM event so I thought that was pretty impressive That's an endorsement right there Well thank you Jeff for being on with us on What's Neat Alright thank you very much Ken and it was good to see you Now a lot of times on the show in this segue we show beautiful models and you hear the great music playing and you're sitting there saying well who made those great models Well I'm standing here with Steve Hurt and he's a gentleman that's responsible for making those large scale models that we've seen on the show I can remember the yellow truck in my mind but they're anywhere from HO scale 125th scale and 116th scale models just the best models I've ever seen not so much a model railroader but an absolute model builder about your gorgeous models worth looking at Like you said I'm not necessarily a model railroader I just enjoy models, trains are one of the subjects I enjoy trucks, trains, anything heavy, dirty and prototype based for sure Now you've modeled this wreck on a flat car the caboose from prototype photos Correct, I first saw the picture of the prototype in a book put out by the city of Boonville, Missouri and as soon as I saw the picture I knew that I wanted to have a model of it and started collecting the necessary pieces over a couple of years span to put together parts for it and then it took about a year to build the model itself That's absolutely amazing Do you display that? Do you do museum type stuff? No, I don't even have stuff on display at my house I'll tell you there's a market for that Maybe that's what I should look for Now I'm looking at your 116th scale tractor trailer dumper rig here This is magnificent That is also it's scratch built based off of prototype I've got pictures of the prototype to go with it that show the truck and then show the in progress, the modifications I made if I can use kit parts but I don't get a lot of that because I like to have unique subjects so I don't want something that when I show up at a show like this I don't want to ever take a chance at somebody else setting one down like what I've got This is cast from a lot of parts Most of the parts, as I need them I'll either make a master out of styrene and then cast and resin or I will make if it's just a couple, I'll make a couple out of styrene Give me your thoughts on radio controlling one of these To me, the radio controlled stuff, it loses detail The sacrifice to make function is the loss of detail and I don't want to take a toyish look to it, I want it to look as realistic as possible Now that's from a real model builder Now explain to us some of these HO scale models you've weathered, you're really good at weathering Thank you Same thing, I primarily build HO scale Frisco models My dad is from this area and his family all worked for the Frisco so that's always had me Frisco based for my railroad subject So as I find different photos whether from his collection, books, online, wherever something catches my eye that's what I start on Man, your stuff is amazing You've got prototype photos next to every model to back it up, the log truck the yellow truck I try to document each build from start to finish if I can I never know if people are interested or not but I'll put out the books If it's a major project, I'll have the photos to go with it a little bit of explanation to go with each model and then the storyline to go with it Wow Steve, Steve Hurt from Delaware Ohio, absolutely amazing work Thank you very much I appreciate you doing it I appreciate it, thank you Another new manufacturer to the St. Louis prototype modelers meet is Soundtracks Now you all remember George He's been on the show explaining to us how the Sonami 2 and Sonami 1 decoders have worked in the past few years but he's now got something new to talk about and that's this new sound car package where for the price of the decoder now you get a speaker and an enclosure the whole setup and instructions on how to install the sound car in your sound car freight car but George, tell us how's this show working out for you so far? The show's been really good a lot of good conversations with people had a lot of good conversations with everybody so a lot of good buzz and excitement about the Sonami 2 it's really good to get out and talk to people and show them the decoder because you can read a manual but it's kind of hard to show some of the speeches that we've got built into there and once people see it they start realizing how much better this is on the market than anything else that's there so it's been really good kind of want to talk about our sound car though this is going to be our new bonus packs, these are going to start shipping to stores the end of next week as he mentioned they do have the speaker and the enclosure now to come with the decoder for the same retail price of $59.95 but the other thing, the biggest highlight of this is we've actually gone and revisited the sound car and the caboose whistles now so you can actually get more choices into your decoder to reproduce cab car operation caboose push pull operation things like that we've actually even got a new feature now added in that's over and above that though you guys have spoke we finally listened we did add cattle sounds and sheep sounds into the decoder now so as your car is traveling across the layout you're going to hear the moos of the cow, the sheep bowing as it runs and you can adjust the probability of how frequently it does it'll adjust also based on how fast the locomotive or the car is going and it'll also kind of give you some sounds in the background to kind of play the sounds and then there's also a spook the cattle feature where you can push the function and get them all riled up so if you want to listen to it really quickly I can do that for you here but I have it mapped to F4 right now but you can map it to any of the buttons that you like man I'll tell you what it's amazing the magic you guys keep dreaming up in Drango and allowing the rest of us to work with and play with you're adding that fourth dimension that sound exactly and it's amazing you just keep coming up with new ideas George but thank you for making the effort to come to the prototype modelers meet it's I'm glad that you're here and I wish you a safe trip hey thank you very much I had a great time and I really enjoy this I love being a bunch of my peers I think you're going to be seeing Cardinals baseball tonight probably not tonight maybe tomorrow prototype modelers meet alright thanks for this segment I'm with Tim Runnels from Oceana California I tell you what what a beautiful place to come from to come here but you've got the proto-87 stores and essentially what you're stocking is the essentials for the guy that wants the super detailed scale flanges and detailed track work you want to tell us a little bit about the neat stuff you got today well today I'd like to show off my self-guiding frog it's a number six it comes in all sizes 83, 70 and 55 you can buy it pre-built or you can buy it as a kit and build it yourself it operates flawlessly it works with 88 safe wheels as well as RP-25 it's prototypical in all the yards in North America we hope to come out with a number four and a number five we also do a switch stand operation by an invisible breakman so you can get out and use the touch to operate your switch stand or your turnout I see it every time you touch this piece of paper the switch is throwing I can see the target turning that's amazing that's correct so this little guy right here has a little gearbox underneath it which drives the flag stand on top and operates the points as well this sells for $14 this is 14 bucks and it turns your target head for your signals just like that and this will fit into a section of two inch foam so you don't have to have a very deep recess correct everybody likes it for the shelf layout because your profile is going to be very narrow this is a cool thing and 14 bucks that's a deal that's half price that should be selling for 30 half price right now I also operate that touch by this presto card the presto card does many things ok the presto card that's this electronic device right here that's correct everything plugs in and out so it's very user friendly if you make a mistake all you do is turn the plug backwards and now you have the right connection and this is what helps operate the turnouts and you can also operate this from remote location either by a panel a remote panel or the dispatcher panel the card is also operating all the LED lights as well as the push buttons and what's really cool about this is when you power your layout down and you power it up everything comes to a preset position so you don't have to walk your layout to figure out what you did last night so all the switches will go to a preset position when you turn on the layout correct that's pretty neat and you said how much does that retail fit then I also have these cool rail aligners now the rail aligners will show a close up of that on camera that's pretty small as what we do is we cut with a little slot on the bottom flange of the rail and stick the H in then the other end of the rail will slide up so when you go to build the hand laid track you don't have a bump on your ties wow and it also looks like it's a joint bar at the same time not necessarily I do have photo edge joint bars there for code 70 and 83 and they lay flat against the edge of the boy I tell you what I need to get with you and buy some of these from you the athern photography Chris Palomar tells me we need joint bars yes that's correct and it makes it look so much more real just adds to the track work you highlight them a little bit and these are the finest ones I've ever seen awesome they're very nice I like to you work with a syringe and needle I put my ACC in this I have great control I also use it with flux and solder paste it's a really neat that's a good idea 21st century of model building you got to have this no more puddles and toothpicks right this is just you just have so much more control over it with with a needle and a syringe we have two sizes of needles one for the little bit oh yeah okay so they come in a three pack for five bucks okay and I guess you replace a tip every time you use it the idea if you if you leave this out yeah it will the ACC will dry and applaud your needle but after you're done using an ACC if you put it in the fridge the glue will never set in the needle oh there's a cool trick and if you use it fast enough you can pull this out and add more ACC to it wow that's really neat so that is cool well Tim listen thank you for showing us all the cool stuff you brought to the prototype modelers here one more really cool thing shoot I have a curve calculator on my website you guys figure out whatever radius you want to build to the calculator will calculate the radius whatever number switch you want to use and it'll come out with template what website is this that we would have to go to www.proto87.com and then you can also find all your products on that website that's correct alright Tim well thank you very much for being on what's neat hey thanks Ken so the show went really quick this year it seems like I've got Lonnie Baithhurst who has helped put on the show the prototype modelers meet here in town and I want to say the numbers are higher than last year I guess we had about 15 new manufacturers this year and about how many attendees about 575 not quite about 575 folks so it was a really good show I want to say it was almost 10,000 square feet we might be at 25 25 so it's 10,000 square feet than it was yesterday more than it was last year so it's really a tribute to the fact that the show keeps growing it's an important Midwest meet but we get to meet with all the folks from around the country and do we have the dates for next year Lonnie? yes July 20th and 21st July 20th and 21st write that down on your calendar for next year's prototype modelers meet in St. Louis for that