 and welcome. So glad to have you here today. Yes, you all of you, each and every one of you. We're so glad to have also Michelle Boggs joining us today. And Michelle is with us from Classy, where she serves as the executive nonprofit industry advisor. And she's here to talk to us about how you can keep your nonprofits message at the forefront. So she's got a lot of insight, a lot of expertise to share on this topic. But before we start this conversation with you, Michelle, we want to remind our viewers as well as our listeners across the globe who we are. So hello to you, Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit academy. So grateful that you had the foresight to come up with this platform, the idea of the show, the nonprofit show. We are marching into our fourth year, nearly 800 episodes. And I'm so honored to serve alongside you, Julia. I'm Jared Ransom, your nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven group. Really, you know, just love these conversations. When we started this, gosh, four years ago, right? It really was a labor of love. Not quite sure what we were doing. But now we are on this journey and really having a lot of fun doing so. We're also extremely grateful and having a lot of fun with our presenting sponsors. So thank you so very much to our amazing partners that allow us this opportunity to have conversations like the one today that we're going to have here with Michelle. So I want to give a shout out to our friends over at Bloomerang, also with American nonprofit academy, fundraising academy at national university, nonprofit thought leader, your part time controller, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you to these amazing companies for being here and allowing us this opportunity. If you want to go back, as I said, we've, you know, four years, nearly 800 episodes, you can find them. So we've got the archives for you. They're available and they're free. You can find them on Roku, YouTube, Vimeo, Fire TV. And then if you're a podcast listener, like I am, and probably many of you watching is listening as well, you can also listen to the nonprofit show wherever you stream your podcast. So go ahead and queue us up for your entertainment delight, whatever, whatever time, day or night that might be for you. So Michelle, we are so grateful, so very grateful to have your valuable time and your valuable expertise with us today. Again, those of you watching and listening to the nonprofit show, today we have with us Michelle Boggs, executive nonprofit industry advisor. Welcome, Michelle. Hi, Julia. Hi, Jared. Thanks so much for having me, you guys. This is awesome. I'm excited. You know, we're really excited to have you on to chat with us. So much goes on in the nonprofit sector. It's one of those weird sectors that is so closely aligned to the news and all these things that go on in a global way. A lot of times we have our heads down. We're focused in our communities. We're thinking about what it is that we're trying to do and get done and provide service, achieve our mission, vision and values. And then something happens in another part of the world that kind of gets everybody talking or thinking. And so this is why we wanted to talk to you, Michelle, and get your opinion about this. How do we keep our message out front when things are going on and bubbling up around us? Anybody in the nonprofit sector knows that's kind of how we live our lives. So my first question, and Jared and I talk about this a lot, on air and off air. How do nonprofits compete for attention? I mean, what does that look like to you? Yeah. I love this question as well. And I think if you're working at a nonprofit, if you serve on a board, if you're leading a nonprofit, you should be thinking about this all the time, right? And I think I bring a unique perspective because I was in the nonprofit world for 20 years and now I work for a technology company. And I think technology and data is such an important piece of this, right? I mean, 10 years ago, we didn't think people would give money online. And now if you look at the giving trends online, it's insane. I read last year alone, 97% of all donations from Gen Z were made online. So competing for attention, a huge piece of that is online. But my perspective is unique because I come from a technology company that works with over 6,000 nonprofits. We're a fundraising platform at Classy. Well, we are also part of GoFundMe. So now you're tapping into five million individuals who are setting up campaigns to help other individuals. So lots of different ways to look at it. It is a real challenge. I think it's such a competitive market. We talked about 1.8 million nonprofits in the United States. It's noisy. People have limited attention spans. Nonprofits typically have limited resources when it comes to marketing budgets and how they're segmenting and what their message is and where they need to show up. And I think people have shorter attention spans than ever. So I think, you know, before we get into maybe some of the crisis type messaging and how to stay competitive when that happens, I think just in general, the nonprofits competing well for attention are doing a couple of key things that are setting them apart. I think they're choosing relevant and meaningful data in their decision making, in their donor segmentation and in their donor messaging. They're using that data to articulate their impact. They're tying it back to why it's relevant to their theory of change. So why do they exist? What are they trying to solve for? And they're choosing data that resonates with their supporter base and that's accurate and transparent and reliable. So data is really big. I think nonprofits doing a good job garnering attention are really, really good at working in the branding space. It might seem simplistic, but they're very clear on who they are, why they exist and what they're looking to do. And I came from some of the big ones. I was with American Heart and Stroke Association for a long time. I was with leukemia and lymphoma society. And I will tell you that a lot of big nonprofit brands, we're talking 500 million in revenue plus, there's still a struggle with brand recognition, especially staying relevant with younger donors. So I won't call them out by name, but I can tell you a lot of them are going through these big questions of like, do we rename ourselves? Do people understand what they do? Do the 20-somethings understand what we do compared to maybe when we started 100 years ago? So I think branding and messaging. And then lastly, I'd say the ones that are remaining competitive in the space and getting the attention they deserve. They have a strong recurring donor base. They have a solid donor acquisition strategy. They know what they're good at and what they're not. They know what they're planning to do. They've set goals. They have outcomes. They're holding themselves accountable when it comes to donor acquisition. And then lastly, they're obsessed with donor retention, donor stewardship, donor recognition. I mean, that number is always appalling. It's 40% for the industry. So, you know, there are organizations that are outside of that norm. And so I think there's something special happening there and they're being very, very intentional around that donor retention piece. And then you guys want to, Julia and Jared, if you want to talk a little bit more about, okay, now a big crisis has happened in the world. Now you've got the added pressure of staying relevant. I think it's, again, I talked about what's kind of unique about Classy and GoFundMe is that vantage point of like how are folks showing up individually? How are folks showing up for nonprofits? If you take the war in Ukraine, just in the last year, between GoFundMe and Classy, $275 million was raised. So we know if there's urgency and there's a direct connection to the cause, we know that people are more activated, more activated than ever. They want to give. I think it's, you know, they see something happen on the news. They feel inclined to do something. Now the real work begins for that nonprofit. It's like, how do you then keep your mission relevant? How do you resonate? Maybe a small one-time gift. How do you turn that passive donor into a lifelong supporter of your mission? Like that's where the real work begins. And I think that's where the data can become really important. So that's kind of some of the stuff I think about. So let's talk about that because this is a really, you're absolutely right. I mean, there are things that are percolating all the time that pop up on our news feeds, you know, one drama to the next that are real. But what do we do during this time? Do we lean in or do we not? Because I mean, in our community yesterday, in our region, there was a tornado that touched down in Los Angeles and caused a lot of heartache and damage and death. I mean, that's big news that doesn't maybe relate to some of our nonprofit work, but do we step back? Do we lean in? I mean, how do we navigate some of this information coming through? Yeah, again, I love this question too, because I think you probably get so many different answers. I mean, I personally feel like, you know, the short answer is no, you should not step away, you should not reduce messaging, but there's a nuance and there's a way to do it. And I think where I'm coming from is, I think more and more when you're looking at venture philanthropy, when you're looking at this movement from like, when you're looking at this movement from like, subsidization of a nonprofit to optimization, people are donating very differently, donor expectations are changing. So if you take all of that, I think donors are expecting nonprofits to get together and solve for things. So they're looking for that collaboration. So when a crisis happens, I think that a nonprofit should proactively look for ways to show up and have a seat at that table and see how they might be able to help, how they might be able to convene, how they might be able to share a message. So as an example, when I worked at a children's hospital in Miami, we had an earthquake happen in Haiti, this was probably 10 years ago, a significant earthquake happen in Haiti. Terrible earthquake. So again, it's like the question you asked Julia, like, do we just be quiet about all the plans that we had for the next two weeks? And we're not going to do those things. And we're just going to, you know, wait until the appropriate amount of time passes. And then we'll go back to business as usual. I don't think that's the way to go. I think that you can still show up to your donor base because they count on you, they're expecting your messaging, you have a relationship, they trust you, I think you can still show up in a meaningful way. And what we did at the hospital was, you know, join us, all of our hearts are breaking for the people of Haiti, here are some ways you can help. Did you know this organization in Miami is doing this? Did you know that some of our outpatient centers have agreed to be donation drop off sites, here are their locations, here's the type of supplies they're looking for. So you become sort of like the evangelist for whatever is happening because they rely on you, you are a source of information, they have that relationship. So I think there's a really respectful way to do that. And I think when all those rise and you say like, we're pressing pause on, you know, helping kids at this local children's hospital because this bigger issue is happening. But again, here's how you can get involved. Here's how we can help be a steward of you trying to do good. So I think any time that you can look for those opportunities is key. And I think, you know, I don't want to sound tacky, but you have to think opportunistically as a nonprofit. So this isn't a crisis, but I think about things like the ALS ice bucket challenge. I think about things happening right now about Mr. Beast, the top YouTuber in the world getting behind certain nonprofits. If those things happen to your nonprofit, are you ready? Like, can you, can you take advantage? Or are you like, Oh my gosh, this influencer just backed us and we have no idea how to handle this influx of interest. So I think also it's not, it's like not if the next crisis happens, it's when and so like, is your board trained on your message? What would your crisis message look like? How could you sort of plan and do the emergency preparedness? It reminds me of, we had a nonprofit who literally talked about it the same way a hospital would in that we, we toured a hospital up in Orlando, Florida, when the Pulse nightclub shooting happened, that terrible, it was the largest one before the Las Vegas one happened, but it was terrible. But the point of my story is a week before that shooting, that hospital had done active shooting trauma planning. And so they like, it just was so serendipitous that this had happened. And that's a really extreme example. But this nonprofit used that as like, we have to get ready for whatever is going to happen. And would we be able to pull levers and pull, you know, certain things to happen for us? Or are we all just standing there going? What do we do? What do we do? I think there's so much going on around the globe, right? But let's just pin it into our nation, you know, there's so much happening, you know, to your point, Michelle. And I also think Julia, to your point, right? Like, if we as nonprofits were to stop sharing our message, you know, we probably would stay mute for ages because there's just so much going on. But I love what you said, Michelle, you know, about making it relevant, making it compassionate, coming from a place of galvanizing support that supports the local community, the, you know, the regional community, even an international community, because you've built that donor trust, right? Like they know you, they trust you. And if you're saying in Miami, here's what we can do to help the community of Haiti, why would they not want to, you know, provide that support to you? So I think all of those are just very, you know, very critical points as we move forward, because you're right, it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when. Unfortunately, I think it's a matter of like, I don't know, just ongoing, you know, messages, and we have to really filter through that. So when I'm hearing you say, really is like, let's not step back, you know, when a crisis comes, comes to the forefront, let's actually find out what our message is and can be to actually increase and elevate the, the information around it. 100%. I think you, you summed it up really well. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's like going with your marketing and communications plan that you've set out, but thinking creatively how it could pivot quickly, should it need to give in a crisis, or maybe it's not even a crisis, maybe it's something that is just so in line with your mission, that's super newsworthy, and it's getting a bunch of attention. And again, I hate using the word opportunistic, but I can't think of a better word. It's like, you know, when the Damar Hamlin thing happened, like, I'm thinking back, if I would have been working at American Heart and Stroke in that moment, how I'm the executive director of Buffalo, how am I turning that into, let's educate more people on the life saving skill of CPR, let's educate more people on why an AED needs to be in every public place and they're not, why an AED needs to be in every police vehicle, like those are things, it doesn't always even have to be an ask for donations, it could be, here's what you're seeing in the news and here, here's how it's relevant to the work that we're trying to do. But I think reactively, you're going to, it's not going to land. So I think there's work you can do now that will set you up to do it well. So let's have you drill down on that, because I love what you just said and that is, you know, looking at what is going on in the nonprofit space, talk to us a little bit about communicating on other actions and other things, because it can look like we're jumping in and kind of stealing some of the thunder when we're pulling it back about our organization, which we might not even be involved in, right? So how do you balance that? Do you come forward as a subject expert? From your point of view, and offer your advice, or do you again step back and say, well, that's not our organization dealing with that, talk to them. How do we refine that? Yeah, again, I think that's like, it's such a good question because it's what we should be thinking about, like we don't have the luxury anymore of just like staying in our lane and hoping that always resonates, if we have to be omnipresent, right? And so I think, of course, it depends on the situation. And if you've got a strong like value system within your organization, you have board involvement, you have, you know, your top supporters and donors, I think there's a way to activate everyone in this process, like talk about an amazing board activity you could do or something, you know, you could bring together your top corporate sponsors, your top donors and say, should something like this happen? What is the approach we want? What is the collective approach that we would want to take? And now you're not just making a decision based off of your little internal nonprofit team, you've engaged your key stakeholders to say, okay, if this happens with women's reproductive rights, or if this happens with, you know, environmental issues or climate control, like this is how we would want to show up. But I think, again, what I said in the beginning of the conversation is I think donors are becoming more and more impatient with some of the lack of progress with nonprofits. I mean, you think about this whole concept of venture philanthropy, it's like, can I just come in with this amount of money and solve for the problem quicker, faster, better? So I think we have to pay attention to that. So they're looking for us to like figure out a way to collectively solve for some of this really big stuff. So I think about just recently, I had read that at Walgreens at the point of sale when you're checking out, leukemia and lymphoma society and Susan G. Coman together are showing up and whatever's raised, which will be millions of dollars is split between those two organizations. Years ago, like, I don't think that would have ever, it would have been like, nope, you know, you're a competitor. And so I think like it's evolving and changing. So I think the more that you can figure out your messaging and how it relates to whatever is happening, but doing it in a way that keeps your donors' interests top of mind in knowing that they want to do good and they're looking to you as their trusted partner, their advisor, someone they're investing their time, energy and money with. So just being really careful in how you show up. But I think there are absolutely times where it's going to make sense to comment or have a point of view or just share what your organization is doing to maybe help scale, you know, for bigger outcomes. So, but I think if you could, again, it's I keep thinking like there just has to be some cool work that can be done now. But if you could involve your key stakeholders, and I just think if I were working at a nonprofit, Julia, I would want to like have a board meeting all around that of like, let's go through a mock scenario of like, this happens, what would we do and how would we want to show up? Love that exercise. I really do. It makes me think, you know, here in my community, we hear often about water safety, drowning prevention, you know, and Florida. Yeah, absolutely. Many of our communities. And then, you know, there's also many nonprofits that provide free swimming lessons or free life jackets, you know, and so really tagging that mission into what could be, you know, such a community crisis, I think is is timely. It's relative. It's sensitive. But more more than anything, as you know, as you mentioned the word opportunistic, to me, it's like, it has to be done, you know, it has to be the solution because that's why we exist. Nonprofits exist to provide a solution to the community problem. So for me, I'm on, I'm on the bandwagon with you, Julia, like, yes, let's definitely comment when there's something to be done that's relevant to our mission. So, Jared, you do a lot of strategic planning, and I've got to ask you with the organizations that you work with around this country, has this ever been brought up as a discussion within strategic planning? I mean, I've never been around a general strategic plan that's ever included this. It might come through the Marcoms team, but I think, you know, it really, to Michelle's point, should be starting with our boards, but I'm not seeing it. Are you? I'm not seeing it. And again, you know, when I lead the strategic planning, and thank you for mentioning that, you know, it really depends on if marketing communications comes up as one of their goals. And if it does, then yes, right, like how, how might we consider some of these objectives to achieve our goals. But I love, Michelle, what you had said, like, you know, so many organizations, and I know the three of us here at often is like, our board doesn't do anything, our board is lame, our board, you know, and like, we often pin the problem on our board members. But if we were to provide an exercise like this, what a wonderful opportunity to engage and, and solicit the feedback and expertise from the board. So I would love to get that. Yeah, I have not seen this as a board exercise as a part of onboarding as a part of board education as a part of a strategic exercise. I also think I rarely see a very strong board member on most boards that has like a very significant background in marketing and like that in itself is like an easy win, like you recruit like the best marketer in your area, and you sell them on this idea of like we have limited resources, it's noisier than ever, we need to cut through the clutter, then we have to mix in crisis. But I mean, you could start the exercise with your board of like, take the top big newsworthy crisis is that it happened in 2022, and then talk about the donations that stemmed from those. I think it could be a really compelling exercise, but I would also encourage folks listening to look at their board and say, do I have someone with a really strong marketing and communications background and maybe that's a seat I need to fill because that could be a game changer as well. So Michelle, we had a question come in from a viewer and I still think it's relevant where we are right now in the conversation. But the question wants to know if you have any recommendations on marketing strategies or key data that an organization should share when you have donors of different age brackets. So real-time question, curious if you're able to answer that one. Yes. So this is a really good plug for Classy because Classy does a why America gives report every year, and I can send the link to it, but we just did our fourth annual, and this one specifically focused on the different ages and why they're compelled to give and they're giving behavior. So a lot of the same stuff you had in your episode around attracting millennial and Gen Z donors, but this particular report is going to really dig much more into the data. So it's going to talk about what younger donors are expecting to see when they go to your website, what the suggested giving amounts like if your first monthly donation is $20, you're going to scare off a whole cohort of young donors that thinks that that's too high. What they're expecting when it comes to follow up once you give a gift. Baby boomers might want to hear from you less frequently, but with a more comprehensive, robust, maybe quarterly annual report type communication with lots of text and pictures, but a Gen Z person wants to hear from you way more frequently, quick, short text, those things. So that report is really, really cool to dig into if you're looking for like that generational data. I think also just the more that you can, and I started in the beginning with the organizations that are doing it well are harnessing their data in powerful ways and taking a look at, okay, we just launched this campaign. Which age showed up? Which age did this campaign resonate with the most? So the more that you can start to segment and look at your data, the more you're going to be able to see, okay, that money that we invested in the Facebook ads really paid off, or maybe we thought Instagram was a good space for us, but it wasn't. I think nonprofits typically overinflate their ROI from social media, and they don't always have the mechanisms to see that, you know, it's like the bandwagon thing. It's like, oh my gosh, everybody's on TikTok. We have to do something on TikTok, and we don't always have the mechanisms to say, did that really pay off with that investment or did it hit the right demographic? But the Why America Gives Report is great. It's so much more data than you probably would ever want. But I think things like that, if you're like a data nerd, it would be great for that person to look at. Well, we are nerds here, and you know, this might be something we need to like put pressure on you to come back and just talk about that report. Oh, I'd love to. Yeah, it's really a big thing, and we're all about that here in the nonprofit show. I mean, we started this at a time when things were really changing, and because of the pandemic and then the ancillary things that occurred during that time, and that has been one of our things. It's almost like a saving grace, don't you think? Jared is like moving back to the data and really kind of making a commitment to tracking it. One of our early guests was like, let's make data sexy again. I mean, we dandy that about because we really do believe it. Michelle Boggs, what a fun morning. It has gone by so fast, which we knew it would. Executive Nonprofit Industry Advisor for Classy. Check out Classy.org. You have so much information on their website. You can access so many of their tools. Learn more about what they're doing in the nonprofit sector. It's really been fascinating, Michelle, to have you on to talk about this really amazing conversation that I think we need to continue because it's something that is much bigger than many of us even know until we're in the middle of that storm. And so it's been really fun to have you with us. Hey, again, if you don't know who we are, this is your first time as a viewer. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined today by my nonprofit nerd, but she can really be your nonprofit nerd too, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, we would not be here with the fabulous Michelle Boggs today if we didn't have support from our amazing partners. Most of these folks have been with us since day one, and if I'm not mistaken, today the 23rd is the day that we officially launched three years ago. So, Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd, and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that have been with us day in and day out, and they continue to allow us to have these amazing conversations Monday through Friday, folks. So, join us live or join us on the archive. Ladies, this has been a lot of fun. Yes. Thank you so much, Michelle. Oh, thank you guys, and thank you so much to the sponsors for making this content possible. You guys are awesome. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. It continues to be a lot of fun. And as we like to end every episode, we want to remind ourselves, our viewers, our listeners, our guests, our co-hosts, to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.