 Boom, it is an episode of The Grail with my guest, introduce yourself, my man. Hi, my name's Perry Schell, from Philadelphia. I'm an artist, musician, whatever, t-shirt collector, mostly, I guess. Hell yes, you are, and a friend of mine. How are you, buddy? Look at that, are you at your house? Where are you today? This is my studio, where I do all my work and art stuff mostly, and play a little guitar and kind of just my space to do whatever. Do you got a fan on or something there? No, does it sound like there's a, yeah, weird. Somebody else said that recently, and I'm like, no fans, no heater. Let me see, oh, you know what it is? It is technically a fan, my laptop has, it plugs into a, let's see, this should stop it. There we go. I forget the only fan I have is cooling off my computer, which is the thing I'm talking into. So of course, everybody's always like, what is that noise, and I must be on your end. No, it's, well now I solved that for the other zooms. That's perfect, thank you. Great shirt you're wearing today. Bill Graham and Kay Sam presents Graham Parker. Wow, look at that, that is rad. That's a good condition, man. Dude, him on the shirt, wearing the shirt, you know, I love that idea of putting the person on the shirt, inside the shirt, inside the shirt, whatever. Well, that's the old, never wear your own shirt or don't wear the band shirt to the venue. I was like, hey, who the fuck makes these rules? Get out of here, you know what I mean? Total, or, you know, I used to be so concerned with wearing your own band shirt. And then if you look at any old picture of Metallica, a bunch of bands, but Metallica, I remember seeing a picture of one of the members of Metallica wearing their own shirt. And I was just like, man, nobody looks cooler than these guys did. So I think it's okay. Well, I think they got it from Steve Harris. I personally believe, you know, Steve Harris wore every shirt. So I personally believe that maybe, you know, early on in the day, he might have pulled him aside and said, hey, there's no better way to sell shirts than letting the kids see you wear it like, hey, this thing's cool enough for me to wear, you know? And who didn't want to wear the stuff their rock star friends wore? Well, and aren't you so particular? I mean, you've been in bands when you get a shirt made, you're like, you want to make it something that you would wear. Oh yeah. And then most people don't actually do it. They don't wear it. So it's like, well, why did you give, you know, as somebody who designs t-shirts, you know, I get the idea, but wear it, why not? It's awesome, right? You paid for it. Well, that was the complete idea of when you came up with the design for my new shirt, I was like, oh, I'm going to wear this. It's like an old, cool parking lot bootleg Dean Del Rey shirt. And I'm going to wear this. I love it, man. Let's get into a little bit of your history now. We first met, I guess, through Instagram or something, but you're a massive t-shirt collector. I've had some of the biggest on. I've had Patrick at Waiko. I've had Blaine Haverson and now you. And it's funny because other than Patrick, Blaine and you are also full blown artists in the business. So let's get into your history a little bit. First of all, how old are you? This year, let me think what year is. I'm 35 as of today's date, yes. 35, man. Now, how do you get into all this? Because I'm 55. That's standard. I grew up in it. But what got you into it? Was it your parents were rockers or what's going on? They weren't so much rockers as music fans and my family, my grandmothers, both of them were artists. And so I think it was always just ingrained in me. My grandfather played music. My mom's uncle played music. It was just kind of around, but not really in the way that you and I are involved at this stuff, you know? They were just, it was like a thing that they did and my grandmothers were really good at art and it was hanging on the walls and all that stuff. And so I think it was all just in my subconscious and like, how do I say that word? Subconscious? Anyway, I'm not a linguist. I'm an artist. So the shirt thing really came about was like, I always gravitated towards old stuff. I'd find my parents old stuff from their childhoods. You know, my mom had, or one of my parents had this thing that was just like cloth on a dowel that they made when they were kids and they had all their buttons all over it. Old buttons from Philly, old peace sign, hippie buttons, all this cool stuff. And I was so attracted to it and I'd be like, hey, mom and dad, can I hang this in my room? And then it starts with the Beatles records and Zeppelin records and Nielsen and all this other stuff. And it wasn't like they were pushy. It was just around and for whatever reason I gravitated towards it all. And the T-shirt thing was, I was maybe 12 years old, the entrance to the attic in our house was through my closet in my bedroom. And I never cared, I didn't wanna go in there. And whatever reason, one day, I was like, I wonder, I'm bored, I wonder what's in the attic. And I just started digging, I probably made a huge mess and I'm just like, what's in here? There's gotta be some cool stuff. My dad saves, my dad had his shoes from his bar mitzvah. Wow. Like he wasn't a hoarder by any means, but he kept these very specific things and I don't know if he knew why, besides he felt like he couldn't let go of it, but the attic didn't have that much stuff in it, but they had this trash bag. And I'm going towards this trash bag, I go, wonder what's in here? I open it up and I pull out this Bruce Springsteen 85 born in the USA T-shirt. Wow. Raglan. There was spectrum? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm assuming, or JFK maybe was probably the spectrum at that point. So it had all the tour dates on the back. So I don't remember which was the Philly one, but you know, black sleeve, Raglan, gray, Heather Gray, I mean, it's classic. And it looked like it, yeah, yeah. You know, it was the shirt. And I pulled it out and I was like, wow, this shirt is so cool. And I was, when I was 12, you know, I don't remember what year the mid 90s some point. It wasn't cool to like Bruce Springsteen at my age. Yeah, it's hip hop. Hip hop is like hitting NWA. And I was really into, I was really into all that stuff too, but I liked my parents stuff. I was the guy who wanted to hear what tapes my parents were playing. And you know, they liked what I played too a lot of the time. So I pulled this Bruce Springsteen shirt. All I wanted at that time was to have a band shirt that all my friends had them, but they're like 20 bucks. Right. My parents weren't gonna spend 20 bucks on a shirt like that. So I start pulling these out. I thought I found a loophole. These are cool. These are old. Nobody else has these at my age. Nobody else cares about Bruce Springsteen. And I like them. So I'll start wearing it. What else is in here? So there's like Billy Joel, you know, early, I mean, not early, like early 80s, maybe mid 80s, Billy Joel. I start finding local restaurants that we go to. Like we were still going to when I was a kid. Right. That my parents grew up going to. There's like a car parts place that my uncle still owns. I got that shirt now. Like, well, at that point, I still have it, but. Now, were these your dad's shirts? Did he go to these shows? Yeah, Harry Chapin, autographed Harry Chapin shirt. Like these are all his, just his shirts that maybe he didn't fit or didn't wear anymore. And so I thought I hit the jackpot. I start pulling all these shirts out. I have a whole new wardrobe. I show up to school. Oh, my mom's uncle, who was a musician, who I told you about, he played accordion. He had a band here that his name was Eddie Silk, which is the greatest name. And he had a shirt, Eddie Silk band. And they played my parents wedding. So now I have these shirts of my uncle's band. I mean, how mind blowing was that to me? So I started wearing them to school. And my friend tells me, my brother got a pair of Docs, Doc Martens at the thrift store for three bucks. Wow. I came home that day. I said, dad, we need to go to a thrift store. And he was like, really? And we were already doing flea markets and stuff like that. But a kid my age doesn't want used clothes you get made fun of. But I thought, no, this is how I step out and be different from everybody else. Cause I still liked a lot of the stuff everybody liked. In fact, I liked all the stuff all my friends liked, but I didn't want to, I wasn't, I didn't feel cool enough to be the skater kid, even though I skateboarded since I was like six. I wasn't good at it, but I did it. But those kids were, they had their thing. They were cool, you know? Right. Turns out they're not that cool. You know, they're not that unique. They're not that original. They don't have great taste all the time. That cookie cutter, cookie cutter. Yeah. And so as a kid, I was trying to fit in until I realized like, well, why would I fit in? I'd rather just be the weird one cause I felt like that. And I still do. At this time, were you also drawing stuff like album covers, you know, mimicking, say Sergeant Peppers, were you digging into? Cause I had friends, I knew right away they were going to be artists because they were doing album cover. They were doing ACDC logo. They would do the Van Halen logo. Perfect. I couldn't draw a straight line. And then they got into doing band logos for my band and local bands and doing flyers and all that. How do you start to get into doing some art? Yeah, I mean, that is, it's the typical thing. I've been drawing as long as I can remember. You know, that's what all artists say, but I was. And looking back on it, people start to tell me like, oh yeah, I always knew that you were going to do art. And I just thought, really? That's just what I did. Now I find out I have, now I have ADHD. So when I look back on it, I kind of feel validated because all my notebooks were drawings. I would literally scribble fake words in the notebook so it looked like I was taking notes. It was just this all over the page, just wavy lines. And the rest of it would be, okay, how good can I draw Fred Flintstone? And I would practice the Flintstones and the Jetsons and Felix the Cat and Garfield and all this stuff because that's what I was obsessed with. And you know, it changed. Eventually I was trying to draw Sonic the Hedgehog or something, whatever. But it was always, if I could draw Mickey Mouse and make it look like Mickey Mouse, then I'm doing something right. Do you remember when they changed Barney's voice? I tweeted about it about a month ago. But I was like, how come no one's talking about it still that they changed Barney's voice and didn't tell us why? Do you remember that? I remember, I didn't, as a kid, I didn't notice it, of course. Oh, I did. As an adult when I watched, because I still watch that stuff. And now it's pretty obvious. You're like, what, they tried to pull this off? Like, yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like there's these shows where they just have all of a sudden a different person that's the same character. They even did it. I think it was like Bee Witch or whatever. Different hospice. Darren. Two Dairons. Yeah, two Dairons. That's a good band name, two Dairons. That is a great band name. Yeah, they're like, there's no Dairons in your band. Yeah, this is some Bee Witch shit before your time, dude. That's some hipster stuff. So like we had Nick at night when I was a kid. And so that's how I got into all that. It's like I felt, I was so attracted to the older stuff because the newer stuff, it just didn't feel natural to me for some reason. And I liked a lot of it, but I wasn't excited about new cartoons until Beavis and Butthead, MTV Oddities, MTV Liquid Television. Right. That was the stuff that sucked me in. Like I remember watching the first episode of Beavis and Butthead when it aired the first time on TV by accident. Because that was just always what I watched late at night. And it made me feel like it was the Flintstones of my generation for lack of a better comparison. But so yeah, I just always grew up drawing, trying to get better and better. And yeah, like you said, you draw a band logos. You start drawing the band members that you like. And I just always did that, the Beastie Boys, the Beatles. Eventually I was drawing Alanis Morissette in the 90s. Yeah, I get it. All the stuff, whatever I liked, I had to draw it. And at what point do you start, I don't know what instrument you play, but at what point do you also start playing music? I don't know what instrument I play. I started in fourth grade, this kid came to our class and said, hey, we need somebody to play drums and you'll get out of class once a week or whatever it is. I, without thinking twice, I go, oh, I like Ringo. Oh yeah, I'll do it. And I ran out of the, I grabbed my stuff and we went downstairs and I started taking drum lessons. And I did that for years, eventually on and off. And then in high school, somebody said, this song is really easy, they're playing a song. And I was like, oh, I didn't know you play guitar. And they're like, yeah, I don't really, I just know how to play a couple of songs. And I was like, oh, can you show me? And it was like a blister in the sun by Violent Femmes. And I was like, wow, I kind of played a thing that kind of sounds like that. And I went from drums in marching band to slowly, like they wanted me to play guitar. I played electric bass in marching band in senior year of high school, which somebody followed me with a cart and a giant PV amp, like it was so weird. But that's what the teacher wanted. So yeah, in high school, I started playing guitar. My friend that I, or my two friends and I started a band and it was a mess, but it was an excuse just again to do artwork and to play guitar was fun. That's amazing, man. Now, you've created some really incredible album covers and stuff. So obviously you take art serious and start to just do it. But art is kind of one of those weird things where it just seems to happen one day that you maybe got a check. There's not like anywhere where you go apply like, I mean, there's graphic artists and all that stuff. But everyone I ever knew, one of my favorite humans on the planet, Kevin Christie, they just painting and drawing and then people reach out. So how does this start to happen for you? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's kind of a typical story, but I had my band and we started playing shows with other bands and they said, I like your t-shirt or I like your demo art, whatever we barely had, flyers, stuff like that. Can you draw something for us? I was like, yeah, that would be awesome. I draw something somebody else likes it, cool. Before it was just kind of for me and my band members needed artwork for our band. So it was just an obvious thing I would do. So when people started asking me, it started in high school and then I graduated, I started going to like community college. I dropped out. I tried to go to a horrible art school here. I dropped out. I was working construction full-time and I was on the construction site and I'm drawing on the tri-wall. I'm drawing on the scrap sheet metal. I'm drawing everything, always, all the time. And I was in art school briefly, so it made me realize like, not to sound cocky because I don't, whatever, but I saw all the other art that a lot of the other people were doing. And it would be like, say we had a class of 20, I'm not kidding, like three of us were making stuff to me that was worth looking at. And that was graphic design because they didn't have an illustration program. So I start doing t-shirts for bands or their CD at the time or seven inches or LPR, eventually, t-shirts. And I start realizing like I have to charge money. It wasn't very much, but I thought, well, I love doing this. I don't care how much money I make. This is just for fun. I work full-time construction. I get paid well, I work hard. And then eventually I started realizing, oh, I think I might be good at this. Oh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know, 20 something years, you know, early 20s. And so people start paying me and hiring me. And once I start doing a drawing, they say, oh, we want this to be our artwork for the album, and then I have to figure out, well, how does text work? All right. How do logos work? How do you, where do you put it? I have the drawing. Where do I put the rest of it? And so I just started figuring it out. And eventually people are like, oh, so you do like graphic design. I was like, no, I draw. I'm like, yeah, but you're designing this album. You did the front and the back and the insert and the layout or the labels on the record and all this stuff. And I go, oh, yeah, I guess so. And then I started realizing you can do more than one thing. You don't have to be one thing. And a lot of people do one thing, but I get so many more jobs, I think, because I have the ability to adapt because that's what I had to do because eventually I had to make a living off of it because I was doing it so much. Right, right. So I just started to try to adapt and I'm still adapting. I'll always be adapting, but that's the fun of it for me. You never, there's no answer. There's no hard, it's not math. It's always changing. And people's opinions always are changing. And for me, it's about getting the person I'm working for to love what I did, but for me to also know that it's worth a damn to look at. Do you remember the big band, the first big band artwork that you did? Geez. So the, I used to tour with bands doing like roadie, merch, TM, whatever they needed. And my friends are in a band called Screaming Females who, I don't know if you've ever heard of them or not, but Marissa, Pat or Nostra is the singer-guitar player. I met the band because my band was on tour. We played with them randomly in like South Carolina somewhere and in like literally an abandoned house that was missing part of the floor. That was just, the owner just said, do what you want, pay me rent at the end of the month. Nobody lived there, it was just for shows. And we meet this band from New Jersey and I hit it off. And so they take me on tour and they're touring with other bands. And I tell these other bands, hey, I do artwork, whatever. You know, that's what I get to know each other. I do art and I do like maybe some t-shirts for Screaming Females or whatever. I meet this other band called Jeff the Brotherhood that they were on tour with. They take me on tour and I start doing art for them. And they got signed to a major. So then I start to get paid a little bit, like way more reasonable amount of money for my time. And I start to realize, oh, they're opening. You know, we went on tour with the Kills. We went on tour with, yeah, you did an interview with Allison, right? Two of them, yeah, I love her. She's a good friend of mine. Great artist, too. She's a painter. She's a singer, songwriter, amazing. She's super talented and she was super cool hanging out with her. But so they started doing these tours with these bigger bands. And I started to think like, I'm not a pushy person. I just mentioned what I do. I put it out there. I love to help people with the artwork because the last thing I want is to see a band I care about have shitty artwork, you know? It's so, it's such a bummer. And it's really amazing when I see somebody that gets it. Say you are Blaine Haverson. When I see somebody that gets it, like when I saw Blaine and went to his shop, it was like, and I've described it before, it was like the Blind Melon video. I'm the Bumblebee and I found another Bumblebee out there. Like, oh my God, this guy's obsession and this guy's eye for detail and this guy's knowledge of rock, concert t-shirts and art and logos and also the obsession of the inks and the cottons and the 50-50s and the logos and labels on the shirts. Everything was like, here I'm thinking I'm the only guy that's a nut job like this growing up. You know what I mean? And I still feel that first Kiss Dynasty shirt that I ever bought. And then the next one being the back and black one. And those are two shirts that I own multiples of because they're so deep to me. And the third would be the appetite for destruction tour, Robert Williams. Oh my God. So those are the three shirts that are, yeah. There you go. Look at that. That's the old great parking lot bootleg there because it's just a mixture of eras and stuff where the people don't know, you know? Look at that. Yeah, totally. I got that from the guy who got it at the show, you know? Wow. But no, I agree with you. And when I listened to that interview you did with him, it gave me the chills. I was like, oh my God, same thing you said. Somebody who you thought you're the, we know that we're not the only ones, but how far do we have to go to find one other person like this? So it's amazing. You introduced me to his work and it blew my mind and it was like, this is the guy who's doing what I've always wanted to do. And I feel at peace with it knowing that somebody's doing it right. Right, right. You know, it'd be great. Have you ever met him? No, I would love to talk. I would love to punish that guy. Well, I sent him over the new t-shirt design and he was like, this is fantastic. So a collab between the two of you would be amazing. It would be amazing. But back to what you're saying, bands with bad art, it's a bummer because when you're a young kid and you're rolling through a record store, you a lot of times don't even know what the band sounds like. You look at the cover and many people that I've talked to, Scotty and many people on the show, they're like, I didn't even know what it was. I just saw Iron Maiden and I was like, killers. What's this? You know, I'm buying this. And the artwork crushed it for them. Got that record in a kid's hands and got it home. And man, and then if the music's good, it's a double whammy. You feel like, yeah, you feel like you became all of a sudden rich or something. You're like, I thought that I was getting this thing that I just hoped for the best. I didn't know what to expect. It looked cool and I assumed it would be, but sometimes it is not nearly as good as it looks. But when it is, you're like, everybody here did their job and did it right. And that artist perfectly was able to express what this music sounds like. And the first thing, if you don't know anything about an artist, your first experience with these people who are making music for a living is not the music, it's the art. Exactly. When you go into a record store, you're surrounded by art before you're surrounded by actual music besides what they're playing over the, you know. And all the stuff in there, perfect example is that Wyco Vintage on Sunday. Good friend. And he's got all the classic record store promotional cardboards, the cutouts, the spinnies, all that. I got Teddy Pendergrass back here. Yes. I got Elvis Costello, two Elvis Costello standees from, you know, promo from record stores. Yeah. That's the stuff I still like to surround myself with because being a kid going into Tower Records for me or on South Street in Philly, I used to go to all the record stores there. You walk in and you just feel at home. You know, you feel like this is the stuff I wanna, I could stare at this for days straight. Oh, I loved it. I love, and I still love them. You know, when I see like I was there Sunday and had the cheap trick dream police cardboard cutouts of all of them, I'm just looking at that like, I mean, the vision, it was just so, it was so massive back then, the 70s and 80s, you know, starting with stuff like Boston with their album covers. Oh my God. Right? It's just like, look at this. I just told people that the spaceship is a guitar. Most people didn't even realize it. Oh man. I knew it right away. I was like, look at that. It either hits you or it's just a spaceship and whatever, but for me, the album cover and that record, oh my God, that first record, you know, you look at that thing and you just go, I don't know what, I want everything. I'm all in, whatever it is, I'm all in. Yeah, yeah. And also those concerts that I've talked about over and over and over and people are like, oh my God, here he goes talking about Dan the green again. If you went to one day on the green, you would be talking about it for the rest of your life. I went to multi, multiple day on the greens, but Dennis Larkin creating all of those scrims for the stages and the stuff he did for the dead. And, you know, I mean, when you pulled up to the war field and he had the skeletons out there or at Radio City Music Hall, you're looking at this guy's work. He's gonna do the podcast here pretty soon. He just doesn't know how to do Zoom yet, but these are guys that were creating massive rock and roll fantasy concerts too. I'm talking backdrops, hotel California. When you look at- Dude, Roger Dean. Roger Dean was like above and beyond. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy, man, what these guys created. And it's so kind of cheap now with digital screens. You know, like you come in, you're like, whoa, look at their backdrop. It's a big old digital, you know, screen, but back then these guys painted these things, you know? There was a guy, he just passed away recently, rest in peace, Kevin Metal. He painted a massive backdrop for our band and it was just fucking cool. Your band looked pro when you rolled in and you saw a band with a backdrop. You're like, oh, these guys are gonna be good just from the backdrop. Dude, my old band, I remember when I worked construction I would take stuff off the job that was trash, you know? So we worked at a place that had a giant, it was a classroom basically, like whatever those giant college rooms are that with the auditorium seating. This is how hard I dropped out of college. I couldn't even tell you the name of a room in college. Auditorium. But it wasn't even auditorium, those lecture halls or whatever. Anyway, they had this giant projector screen and I just saw a canvas, you know? And I was just like, I'm taking this home. It was gonna get thrown out. I took home this giant canvas and I put it on the basement floor and I painted our band a giant banner. Meanwhile, we're playing basement shows, you know? But I'm like, if we show up to the basement and we hang up a banner, people are gonna be like, what the hell is going on? We play for 15 minutes. Oh yeah. And walk off. Well, yeah. We left them with that impression. Well, look at Metallica. They had the Ride the Lightning one, but then they upped the game with Master of Puppets. And recently when they played Corbin or one of those shows, I forget last week they played for the anniversary of Master of Puppets, they broke out the original backdrop for it. And you can watch it on YouTube and they're just rocking with the original backdrop. And all I'm seeing in my mind was, oh, when they opened for Ozzie, they had that fucking thing up there and it's just got the, you know, the crosses and the way that people can make it with the depth. So it looks like it's going down, you know? Crazy. Like a row, you know? The 3D effect. All of that stuff is incredible. And when they did Injustice and they had the inflatable, I mean, giant Doris, the whole stage, yeah, Doris. And then there was, I think there was something else. But it was, it's just amazing to see that because it takes everything 20 times further than it would have already been. And come on, you see Metallica, they don't need anything to put on the most amazing show, but they bring it every time. Well, that lets you know it's psychological too. And I think deep management, them having the best management in the world, Qprime, other than Peter Grant, I don't think anybody has ever been a manager, a management team better than Qprime. But I work with them too. They're great, they're amazing. But you know they're in these rooms and they're like, okay. So Lightning, you had a backdrop. Pretty cool. Masters, you had a backdrop, a high riser and you know, more Marshall stacks. For justice, we're gonna go this big Doris, a backdrop and some bombs and stuff like that for one. And what that does to the fans subliminally is let them know, oh, my guys are getting bigger. Now they might not even be bigger, but you know, visually and everything, you're starting to go like, man, these guys, they're getting places, man. And that really, and also makes the band feel good. They're like, we got a show here. I mean, imagine Maiden, they're going from a small club to the show I saw two years ago with a full airplane. Right, they're taking their own plane there. Wow, it's so incredible. So yeah, man, the art, like we say, good art is a must, a must to get into. Now tell people how you do this art because we were talking, you don't just, you know, you're not just all digital now and you're not all analog. Give them the rundown on how you create a shirt or an album cover. Yeah, so I mean, because I'm a collector, because I grew up going to thrift stores and flea markets and all that, I was always just attracted to the old stuff and I wanted to know how are these people doing it? And the thing is, most of those people, a lot of them went to school, of course, but a lot of them just figured it out. Or there wasn't technology yet to tell them any different. They didn't have the options. And so I kind of not purposely put myself in the position of no other options, but I know what I know and what I feel like I need to know on the computer. And the rest, you know, when you record an album and you record to tape, I know most people are like, no, digital sounds better. Well, that's a physical object, that tape. And for me, I feel like I can only understand things that exist. And to me, in person, it has to exist. So when you hear a band that recorded to tape, that tape existed. And when it's on cassette tape, that is a tape that exists and vinyl and stuff like that. So with artwork, I wanted to go through my hands. I wanna be able to touch it and feel it and manipulate it with my hands because it should be, it should have the feeling of a human being was invested in this thing. Not that a human being is very good at the computer. You know, anybody could watch 500 YouTube videos and be the best Photoshopper of all time. But that doesn't interest me. What interests me is, what the hell is this weird shade of purple on this album cover from 1973? And how come it looks like, you know, I love, like, you know, Serone, human nature and all, it was like a weird electronic musician. His album covers are terrifying. They're so weird and disturbing and unique. And I see stuff like that and I just go, that doesn't look like anything else I've ever seen. And it would have been done in Photoshop in five minutes now. So I wanna just, I just love to get into it. Heart and soul. You wanna put some heart and soul into it. I get it. Dude, when you record a record, you put everything you can into that, into those songs. And all you can think about is, I hope people like this. So when I do art, I wanna put everything into it. I wanna, and this isn't some, I'm this abstract painter or I do these, whatever it is. If I'm gonna do whatever, I want it to be well-loved by me before I make somebody else love it. So I have this letter set. I have thousands of rub-on letters, you know, from back in the day that you would use from the 70s and the 80s. And then I have, I will print out a photograph if it was taken digitally and re-scan it or I'll manipulate the paper. I'll draw on it. I mean, everything I do has to go through my hands at some point. Nice. And that's just scanning borders, scanning texts. I'll have a book, an old textbook of some sort. And I'll go the titles for every chapter are in this different typeface that is not exactly like the version I have on my computer as a font. So I'll go every chapter and I'll scan in as many letters as I can to make up an alphabet and the numbers if I can. And then I pull every letter, every character individually into the artwork because fonts, anybody, if my great grandfather was alive and never used a computer, I could say type a word, you used a font. That's it, period. Anybody could do it, you know? Yeah. I don't wanna do a thing that anybody can do. And so I want everything to feel old and I want it to feel not even old. The words, I use two words. I don't like retro. I don't think that that is appropriate for what I do. And it's not vintage. It's not an old, I just made it 2021. So I wanted all to look timeless and I want it to feel classic and familiar because when you go to a record store and you see that record, I don't want you to think, oh, in 2003, everybody used this font that was a free download on this website. Oh. And that's so true. Also people go through these phases. There was like photographers, I would say like seven years ago, they were doing these extreme photo shops on a band or a comedian photo where it looked like some weird painting, you know? It was just so like way too much pop. Now the first couple I saw, I was like, God, that's incredible. But when they were all like that after a while, I was like, oh, well now everybody's figured out this such and such guys technique. And now everybody thinks that's what you need to be. What we need to be having is that, I contrast weird painting pop photo and then everybody had it, you know? Total, yeah. And then at what point do you feel, how can you feel, and this isn't a judgment on these people, but how can you feel like an artist when you say, I did this thing that came to me kind of easy on the computer because it's a button you press or whatever it is. And that's cool for them, but I've just always insisted on making stuff that always feels familiar, but fresh, you know? It's funny when you look at stuff where it gets further and further and further into deep technology. And, you know, let's talk about anything from like 4K to 6K cameras and HD and all that. And then somebody just drops an old school polaroid on you and you just go, wow, look how great that is. I mean, you can feel it, you can feel it. Oh, I'm there. I'm like, well, look at this skate park Polaroid photo 82. And you're just, oh man, the Polaroid, it's so, a Polaroid truly has soul. It's wild because it was like- 100%, yeah. People were there, they took it and they instantly had it. And you're like, you know, it's so much cooler than a, you know, like, hey, I got my cell phone pictures, like, yeah, but look at these Polaroids. I did a show a couple of weeks ago and they took some Polaroids and I just, I'm so glad that format's still around. It's just so unique. It doesn't feel, like you said, you feel the essence of this thing is these chemicals are combining and making this thing and you're like, I don't know how it works, really. I don't either. And I've had it my whole life, it's been around, but to me, every time you see something like a Polaroid, it gives you that feeling. And so when I do my album art for people or t-shirts or whatever it is, posters, I just want it to feel comfortable, comforting and comforting really more than anything. Who are some of the covers that you've been working on? Risa, I know you were doing some stuff for Dan and everything. Let's talk a little bit about that because your career has, you know, you've become an artist for a living now and you're doing some incredible stuff. People are reaching out to you nonstop. Perfect example of, I always tell people, you don't need to live in LA or New York in this day and age, you just need to do good work and people find you. You're in Philly. So what have you been working on the last few years? So, well, I mentioned earlier that Ben Jeff, the brotherhood that I used to tour with and I was about to leave for a tour. I was in Nashville, that's where they're from. And I was there working on their new album art. And the album I was designing was being produced by Dan Auerbach. And at the time I go, oh yeah, Black Keys, okay. I remember that. I mean, I like them. In my head, they're like a garage band. I thought they were still the band I remembered hearing about when they first started. Right, right. And I thought that was cool. Their songs were on Eastbound and Down when that show was on. And I was like, wow, this is perfect for this show. Masterpiece show, masterpiece show. Yeah, oh my God. And so I would hear their songs and I just thought like, oh yeah, this band's pretty good. We listened to one or two of their records or whatever. I had no idea to what extent they were known at that point. And so they're like, hey, we're going over to listen to the final mixes of the record. Do you want to come with and you can meet Dan and whatever I go, no, I want to work on your artwork. We're about to leave for tour. I want to get this, you know, I want to do it. So they go to the studio. I'm sitting here working on their new album and they come back and they're like, hey man, by the way, I understand now, so many people would be like, oh my God, I get to meet Dan. I get to go to the studio, but he's a musician. I'm a musician. I don't care. What do I care about musicians? You know, if it's not Ringo or something. Jimmy Page, is he going to be in his dragon pants? Like, give me Angus and I'll drop everything. But I was just kind of like, this guy's cool. I'll meet him one day. Yeah, so they come back and they're like, hey man, so the record sounds great, whatever, cool. And Dan wants you to like do some art for him, some little things. And I go, yeah, sure, just give him my eep, you know, tell him to contact me, fine. He writes me and he's like, hey, I want to do this logo for my new studio. Cause at the time it was like a pretty new studio he built in Nashville. And I was like, yeah, you know, just PayPal me like 150 bucks or whatever when we're done. And he was like, okay, cool, whatever. So I do this logo, he tells me what he wants and I lay it out and hand it off and whatever. That's it. He hits me up another time. Hey, can you do this patch? I just want to make these patches for me and a couple of my friends, whatever. Do one or two of those. He's making a guitar strap. I designed what's getting carved into whatever. So this is like maybe 2011 or so. I don't think anything of it. Cool, this guy keeps giving me work and he pays me right away and it's fun. And then about 23rd, I forget what year, I gotta memorize this cause this is the one. So this is really the one. Dan's producing this record for this guy Bombino. Bombino is this incredible guitar player from Niger. And his music is, again, it will give you the chills when you hear this, the guitar playing. It is unlike anything you've ever heard. He's incredible and it just made me feel good to hear it. And he said, Dan contacted me, said, I'm producing this record for Bombino. Do you want to try doing the artwork? I'm like, sure. And he tells me when we find out how much it'll pay me and I'm like, oh my God, I think I'm an artist. Yeah, wow. You know, this is a record label, none such, and Warner, you know, through Warner Brothers. Are you still slinging a hammer at this time, working construction or is that completely out once you start tour managing and working for bands? I was touring more and then the company actually went under and people started slowly getting laid off, unfortunately. I got laid off, I started working. This is a pivotal thing, I guess. I started working for these people who sell vintage clothing in Philly. Right. Turns out they're total monsters in the long run and took advantage of me for years. But the Bombino record I was doing while I was working with for them. And they really put me in a weird position where they didn't really make me feel valued ever. And they didn't make me feel like I was very good at art and they'd have me do art for them, but wouldn't compensate me properly. And I start doing this stuff. I get asked to do this Bombino record and I'm telling them, like, thinking they would be proud of me or happy for me and they're not. And so he starts, the guy, the owner starts talking to me about like, you know, do this thing and this thing. I go, oh, well, like, what if I get more art jobs like this? And he goes, well, how many do you think you'll really get like that? How many album covers that are gonna pay you that much money do you really think you'll get? You know, just talking down to you because he wants to keep you. He wants to beat you down. He had me buy your, get rid of your confidence and just, you know, I've got my slave here. Yeah, I get it. Totally. And what experience did I had? I dropped that account. Like at that point, I just thought maybe he's right. Maybe I don't have much value in art because why wouldn't I be doing it full-time already? Or why wouldn't I have, in school, they tried to teach you to, you'll be in a fur, you'll work for an office somewhere, being their graphic designer, making brochures. Like, I remember being in college and somebody's saying, hey, we got this alumni who graduated from here who's gonna come show you what it's like to graduate from this school. This kid's showing us these restaurant menus he made and I'm looking at them and going. Loser. Does anybody see this? Yeah. This is terrible. I wouldn't let this show up at the crappiest restaurant you've ever been to. So it made me think what I was doing was already better. So fast forward to the working for these people. I do this Bombino artwork for this Grammy award winner who produced it. And I go like, I think I need to take a hint. And so I call my friend who I did construction with. We worked for his cousin. He starts his own company. I say, hey, do you need anybody to work? He goes, ah, maybe two or three days a week. And I said, well, what does it pay? And he tells me and I go, if I work for three days a week for you, I make more than I did in two weeks at the vintage place. Oh my God. I said, I'll see you Monday. Yeah. I quit my job and I go, if I have two or three days a week construction, I have more time for art and I'm just gonna bust my ass and work on the art as much as I could. And dude, people would say, there was this band Obitz on Subpop. Great band members of Hot Snakes and all this stuff. They say, hey, we want you to animate a music video for us. Have you ever animated? I said, no, I grew up watching cartoons. I'll animate. I'll figure it out. And dude, I sat home for two weeks. I would work construction three days a week. I'd come home. I'd work till two in the morning sitting on my bed with a light box that my friend built me. And I would just, I was watching Ken Burns jazz documentary. It was like 12 hours longer. So I was like, I'm just gonna zone out. And I drew for two weeks. I handed in the drawings. They made a music video and I go, okay, now I know I can do that. Cause I just said yes. And once this starts picking up, I'm doing artwork for a band on Subpop. You know, I'm doing art for Bombino. Couple of years go by. I'm doing some fun art here and there, doing, working for bigger bands and all that. The end of 2016. And I'm sorry, this is so long. But it's great though. I love, I want to hear the story because it's, it's cool to hear the progression because people do not ever see the work or hear about the work. It's like me when they come up and they go, how'd you get somewhere so fast? And I tell them why I did almost 5,000 spots. And I did, you know, open mics every day. And I, and I podcast seven days a week and I'm knocking on doors and I'm hanging out till four in the morning. And then they just go, oh, and they just cruise away. And, you know, when somebody says, how did you get somewhere so fast? I know right away, they're discounting the work. They're discounting the work. They hope there's some kind of magic dick you could suck in the back to get, you know, somewhere right away, which is crazy. And it's also an insult. It's like, well, you know, what do you think? I just didn't do the work. Is that what you're saying? You know, so I love to hear the stories. Yeah, so, I mean, that's exactly right. And people see, especially some stuff I do is more simplified and people do just think you press a couple of buttons and it's done. And I don't even know how to press those couple of buttons. I take the long way every time. But for me, it's what makes it more satisfying. But what happened, so sorry to wrap it up, basically, is end of 2016. I hadn't talked to Dan Auerbach in a couple years, two years, maybe at that point, or a couple of years, actually. And his manager emails me at Qprime and he says, can you send me the logo for Dan Studio? Do you have a high res version? And I go, well, why isn't Dan just contacting me for this? And he's like, oh, he's busy and we just need the logo, whatever, and he was super cool about it. But I sent it to him and I didn't think much else of it. And then like a couple months go by, I say November of 2016, I get an email from him again. And I was like, oh, what's this about? And he says, hey, man, how busy are you lately? And I said, well, why? And he said, Dan is starting a record label and he wants you to do all the artwork for it. Wow. And every record, every record. From the beginning, he knew that he wanted me to be doing it, right? So I go, what am I doing? I go, well, you happen to catch me at a good time. I happen to be wide open right now. Of course I was wide open. I was, dude, I was my goal back then and I'm sure you've been here was at the end of the month after my bills, if I had a hundred bucks in my bank account, I was rich. Yeah, I'd get that, right? You know, mid-20s, late-20s, even, I thought- Mid-40s, mid-40s. I mean, yeah, and mid-30s right now. And I thought if I had a hundred bucks in my bank account at the end of the month, I'm the luckiest guy in the world because I get to do what I love, period. Exactly, exactly. And so he asked and I said yes. And he said, okay, Dan, I'll hit you up soon. Next day I get a text from Dan, you're basically saying you're ready for this shit, you know? And I was like, let's do it. And from the beginning, we set out a plan. We want everything to feel like it belongs together. We want everything to feel authentic. We want it to feel unlike what anybody else is doing. Musically, even though it all is reminiscent of things, this is our thing. Comments to Ed, a bond, a family. When you, it's a lot like Rick Rubin back to the day. He created this deaf American thing and then American records. And if it came, you knew it was gonna be good. You knew that artwork was gonna be good. You knew the music was gonna be good. And you knew it was gonna be fucking authentic, man. And that's what Dan started to build. You could see it. Totally. And he loves working in the studio. And the reason we work so well together, I think more than anything, is that we have the same, the drive. All we know how to do is work and create whatever version of art, whether it's me visually and him musically. And together, we do the artwork, really. We work very well with each other on what the artwork is gonna be and the feel of it because he knows the songs better than I do. And I know what the art needs for it. And so he brought me on and that started picking up. And the reason I met you is because I did the Marcus King El Dorado album and you were posting about it and talking about it. And I go, oh my God, this guy's like a long lost, relative of mine, like we just all around the board just we, oh, he likes t-shirts. Oh, he likes the same music. Oh, he likes art. Oh, you know, it was like crazy to me because like you said, you look for that made worn. You look for that, you know, Waikou. You look for these people who get it in the same ways that you get it. And Dan and- Metropolis. Totally, and Dan and I have that connection that I know for a fact he's never had with anybody and I've never had exactly the same way that I do with him. And so yeah, like recently, this ties it all back in, is that you go back in time talking about what I'm drawing as a kid. I'm sitting there drawing the album art for Dookie by Green Day. I'm studying every cartoon character. I'm trying to mimic it. I wanna draw my own characters that look like this. I'm coloring it in. I have these little tiny note pads I'm drawing on because I need to draw all the time and that's what I like. So I'm gonna draw Green Day stuff. Dude, a month ago, I get an email. Hey, Green Day's putting out a new single. Do you wanna do the artwork? And I mean, that was- Unreal. I'm getting emotional. Think about telling you about it right now because it hasn't really hit me like it does to give you this whole story, but- That's unreal. Dude, I mean, that's just- Yeah. I literally thought as a kid, I hope one day I could do this for them. Right. At the time, I thought I just had to draw the same thing that they already put out. I didn't know anything about it, but it's crazy to see that I didn't seek out Green Day. Yeah. They found me and the fact that- And a kid in Philly, man. Just a kid in Philly. That's what, and I always, I mean, I really, it's almost funny to this point, but specifically from Northeast Philly, which is just like, I only use that as a point of pride because it's, everybody moves to Philly and they move downtown. They move to West Philly, Fishtown. There's all these cool places. I'm from a place that like most people never have to go to. And I like that about it. Bumfuck Egypt Philly. Yeah, it's just this other part, you know? And so I always say, like just a kid from Northeast Philly, you know, I'm just literally, I'm just some schmuck. Some kid who liked to draw and was not good at school. Did you ever, because around your art, when you start to take art serious is when tattooing really starts to pop off with the big high dollar, you know, big money, hourly, you know, 250 an hour, 300 an hour tattoo and stuff. Did you ever try getting into that at all? Cause you're covered in tats like myself. I did actually. So even as a kid, I remember being on family vacations and I, I hate this, I hate the heat. I like, I like California because it's not humid. Right. I always hated the heat. So we would go to Florida and my family would go down to the pool and I would be in the room practicing sailor Jerry art when I was in high school, middle school, maybe. Yeah. You know, I was probably 13, 14. And I'm drawing like on my, I start, I make my parents drive me to staples so I can get a high quality pen. Yeah. And I'm sitting in the hotel room or whatever, drawing tattoos on myself. I'm drawing the social distortion skeleton, you know, I'm drawing stuff like that. There's man's ruin, all these classic flash. And I thought that would be, maybe be what I ended up doing. Yeah. And so I got a tattoo machine when I was in my early twenties from a friend. I tried it for a while. I think honestly it was a cheap machine because I never, I could never quite get it. I think I'd be better now if I tried, but I felt like ultimately, because I'm someone who respects the craft so much as I know you do, I kind of just decided, you know what? If this isn't clicking with me and I'm not doing it justice and I can't dedicate all my time to being a tattoo artist, I wanna leave that to the professionals. And it's always in the back of my mind. I'd like the idea of it, but I don't wanna be that guy who thinks they can do anything. I'm okay with not being able to do everything. I get it. I get it. As an artist, you know? I had to ask you because it's funny because my buddy Theo, Theo Mandel, he started as a great artist doing band fliers on Haidt Street. Then he started painting all our leather jackets, you know, with your band on the back, your logo and everything, he could do that. And now he has one of the most successful tattoo, Spider Murphy in the Bay Area, one of the best tattoo shops going. So everybody, that was the road that a lot of great artists took because they're like, wait a minute, tattooing's hot. There was a lot of tattooing shows. Niko Hurtado comes around, starts doing these portraits that are blowing people's minds, Kat Von D's making millions, all of a sudden people are like, wait a minute, let's get into the tattoo game. So I did wanna ask you that because you are covered in tattoos. And I figured that might've been something that you tried at least, you know, a little bit. Yeah, you're totally right. And I loved it in theory, but when you see people like you just named, I go, yeah, I don't need to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. What am I gonna bring to the table that's better than all these other, I mean, not that it has to be better, but I just love, I love it so much that it's nice to be on the outside of it. How many vintage t-shirts you think you got right now and how, I mean, we know how you started collecting, you went up into the attic, got your dad's born in the USA. And from there, you asked your dad to take you to thrift stores. Is that where you get a lot of the bulk of your collection or is it all over the last 20 years? So it's all over the place. I mean, for me, a lot of people don't even do the thrift store thing anymore because they feel like they're too picked over. They don't put out any good stuff and whatever. I still go to the thrift store that I first went to when I told my dad, can you take me to the thrift store? Because I still, dude, I found, this is my favorite thing I probably ever found at a thrift store because it is so specific to what I love. I'm a big stiff records fan. Like my, just to me, that's the, Barney Bubbles did all the artwork and he's my favorite, one of my favorite artist designers of all time. If not, you know, my biggest influence. Everything about it was DIY. It was like the first punk label pretty much. So everything surrounding that, for the most part, to me, I feel so connected to because I feel like that's what I've done, what I've wanted to do is create this thing. And again, with EasyEye, the label that I work for, it's similar where stiff had a look, they had their slogans, they had their iconic logo and shirts if it ain't stiff, you know? And I always love that. And so I only say this because I was at a thrift store, this same thrift store that I always went to a couple of years ago and I'm looking through the shirts when everybody's saying, I don't find anything anymore at thrift stores. And I'm thinking, when I was 12, I found that Injustice For All shirt at the same thrift store for 50 cents. Wow. I know it was a long time ago. I have faith for whatever reason in this place. And I found the Ian Dury and the Blockhead shirt. Wow. You know, the square logo, it says Blockhead, it makes the face in the box. Yeah. Couple years ago, I find it, it's on sale, it was a dollar. And this is the same thrift store I've been going to for 24 years or something. Wow. For me, there's nothing more exciting than going to these places and thinking I will either find nothing or maybe I'm gonna find the next Blockhead shirt or I'm gonna find a Nick Loche or whatever it is. It's panning for gold, man. It's panning for gold. And that's so much fun to turn your brain off with no expectations, you hope, but you don't know. So yeah, thrift stores, estate sales, yard sales, flea markets, eBay, literally anywhere that will have shirts, I'm 10 steps ahead of everybody else trying to figure out how to get them. And that's why I end up with these collections or why I brought some to show you. That's why I end up with Eddie and the Monsters shirt, which is actually like Butch Patrick Tord in a band. Wow, really? And I met the lady who worked the show. Her and her husband worked at the show and this is her shirt. That's incredible. And I have this forever. And I grew up watching the Monsters on Nick at Night. Yeah. And I love horror movies. There's just so many things about this that I connect with. What else you got there? So I got this. Here's our crumb, Mr. Natural. Oh my God, that's so good. Now this is still when it's an American Greetings copyright. So he worked at American Greetings in Cleveland. I've driven past the building on Tord's. It was surreal to see it in person, but that's where crumb worked. And so I don't know, this shirt might be late 60s or something, but to me- Is Crumb still alive? Yes, he is in France with his family and he's still doing it. He's still drawing and everything. Oh, I met Crumb a few times. That movie, our crumb is unreal, that documentary. It is unreal. Now what else you got there? So I have, I tried to bring very specific, kind of rare, interesting shirts. Good, good. What's that? Burt Reynolds. Burt Reynolds briefly owned a restaurant, kind of club, maybe. Yeah. A Burt's place. I wanna say it lasted less than five years. And the other thing that I've told you before is the most I pay for a shirt is 40 bucks. And it has- That's your rule. $40 is my rule. And it has to be a crazy good shirt. Two, I could say I could count on one hand the times I've spent more than that. Maybe 50 bucks, maybe twice. 60 bucks, I think twice. And then I told you, 1971 Blood Rock t-shirt, I paid $90 and that's the most I've ever paid. And I've only seen pictures of it twice. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I think it's okay, I could take advantage of this situation, this shirt being $90. Oh my God, yeah. I'm the type of guy if it was 250 and I had to have it, I'm like, well, I don't eat, but I've got the greatest shirt. Right, and for me, I've just always known the challenge is to find the shirts that I don't have to pay that much. So I could say, hey, I don't want all my friends to pay this much. I would literally find you the shirt for $40 and give it to you for free, just to say stop spending so much money on t-shirts. They're t-shirts, they're everywhere. For me, it's not about having the most, it's not about spending the most money, which most people I don't think it's about spending the most, but most people do. For me, it's about, I want to find the shirts that I get to tell you about it. Right. Even if you know what it is, why, you know, you know this shirt. Oh my God, look at that, man. Devo all over print, when a lot of people weren't doing this because you had to make the fabric, this wasn't like you were just screen printing it on. You see it's sewn into the fabric. No two of these are the same because they're positioned differently. So, and what's funny is that that's an era of Devo when they're pretty much like on the way down, big time, you know, that's way, you know, I think that's 90s Devo right there. No, this, this is still 80s, but it's like, this is like order the back of the, of the insert, you know, they would, they would always have merchandise on their inserts. Of course. This is like probably, probably mid to late 80s. Yeah, yeah. I would say late 80s because I know the record it's from. So I just don't know what year it's out. But man, that's cool as shit. And oh, do you buy shirts that don't fit you? Do you only buy them that fit you? If it's the right shirt and I feel like I'm going to hold on to this now until I get one that fits or I need, I want to have it just so I can say I have it because it's so special. Some of them I have that are just like that because in my opinion, it needs to be documented that it exists. It needs to be archived because these t-shirts are like the way people treat books or records. Totally. We need to know, for me, a lot of them belong in a museum because they're part of pop culture. They created, by putting designs on shirts when that first started to pick up, mostly with Ed Roth and the monster illustrator, guys Robert William, all these people, that changed everything. Cause now we only know t-shirts to be the norm. Totally. It was underwear. It was just literally, you weren't under your clothes. If you wore it outside of your clothes, it was risque or something. To me, once you start putting things onto these t-shirts, that documents that this thing has lasted even if it was for a week. If you started a band, made a shirt and broke up in the same month, that shirt tells that month-long story. Yep, yep. It's funny to think about that. And they're all pieces of art. I mean, if you see them in a museum up all on a wall, it's like that acid art show. The guy has all the acid in San Francisco, you know, the Mickey Mouse acid. And when they're all together, it makes one big Mickey Mouse and all that. It's all art, man. And it's all art and we're surrounded by it. And people take it for granted and they don't realize without music and art, we would be walking through a silent, boring world. Yeah. It's wild. What else you got there? Totally, wow. Yeah, no, first of all, it's such a beautifully put thing. This one I got on eBay for cheap, 1982. This is the Rajneesh Poram. Do you know, this is like, there's a documentary about it called Wild, Wild Country, but they were considered a cult. And this was a shirt that was being sold. Funding the cult? Yeah, Rajneesh Poram, the first annual World Celebration, and it still has the tag on it. You know, I don't know if they, they had a gift shop, and what was it? Was it like a Jim Jones type of thing where it was one guy and he was starting a religion or something? That looks kind of like, it looks like that cover for the George Harrison benefit concert. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, it does. So there's like a whole documentary about them. And again, it was one of those things where I watched the documentary, and the first thing I thought of was... Merch. Where's the T-shirts? Yeah. Because people also rebelled, protested them because they were, they took over a town. I had to look at it because I just, the way my brain works, I don't want to mess up the facts. Right. But, so they started this cult, we'll call it, and they took over a small town where there was already people living there. In America? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those people were rebelling against this cult taking over. So there were also shirts that were anti these people. Got it. So I always liked to find the balance of both of those things. And so I found these, which were not anti, they were made probably by them. And I found this by accident, but for me it's a matter of, I want this to go into the right hands, assuming that is me, because people are learning about this thing now, and I go, well now this is becoming even bigger history than it already was. Maybe just in that small town or where local news or wherever it was known. I just want this to be here, so I know where it is. Yeah. Because this story is interesting and totally wild. What's the documentary on? I want to say it's on Netflix. It's called Wild Wild Country. And it's super fascinating. It was really popular when it came out. And to me it wasn't even one of the more interesting cults. Right. But it was interesting enough and a part of history enough that they made a documentary and it was a good documentary. And I felt, I want to, I need to just have something from it. Forget about it. Just to know that it's documented because I want to archive everything, you know? Yeah. This is an original Apollo 11 moon landing, 1969. Wow. That is sick. Look at that shirt. It's a kid's shirt. I paid $20 for it. It was never worn. Oh my God. I mean this is so good, dude. Look at that. Especially since you know the moon landing never happened. So they made merch for it. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. I was hiding my face behind the shirt. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They even made shirts for the fake moon landing. That's why else is it a drawing and not a photograph? Yeah, exactly, man. They were on a Hollywood back lot and they made the shirts right there at the same time. This is actually a Kubrick shirt. Yeah, it's a Kubrick shirt, exactly. But this is the stuff that people always say to me, they saw a movie or they like a band or maybe it's obscure or rare and they say, man, I wish there was a shirt for that. And I go, no, there is. Oh yeah. If there was a production, they made crew shirts at least. At least. Then there's promotional material. There's promotional t-shirts. So even if there was 100 made, I know this shirt exists. I, it's over there. I meant to put it in my pile, but are you familiar with the movie, Phantom of the Paradise, Brian De Palma movie? Oh yeah, oh yeah, yep. It's one of my top two favorite movies that I had to pick, whatever. It's up there for me. One of the most important movies for me. I found it as a kid and became completely obsessed. I have a tattoo of it. So I thought, I always saw these bootleg remakes people were making of the movie. And I thought, I'm gonna find an original somehow. I just, I'm determined. I now own two of them. I paid $10 each on eBay. The original from the movie, 1974, I believe it was released. That movie is controversial because Kiss came out at the same time. Right. They started Swanson Records. The movie was originally gonna be calling the record label Swanson. Kiss got mad because they were a band in the movie with makeup on before Kiss. I remember that. I remember that. But it didn't come out till after Kiss was starting to be popular. Right. But it was made before. So this is setting this precedent of all this. Paul Williams, one of the greatest songwriters and voices of all time. Yep. In a Brian De Palma movie, I mean, everything about it blew my mind. And I was thinking, I need to get a shirt. And I found two of them. I tweeted at Paul Williams about it. He said something like cast, crew, some promo, barely put them out. And I have two of them. My favorite movie of all time from 1974, or whatever it is. Man. That's the kind of stuff that I want to show people even exist, just to let you know it exists. Because it always exists. And so. Is it a dream to open a museum? You know, it didn't occur to me till recently. I always thought like I'll do a couple books. I'll do some art shows. And just be the collector guy. But then I started to think, like you said, like I always think of something like the house of cash or something. Johnny Cash had this building. That was his museum. Right. And I love the idea of having this modest sized room. Basically just a big open room or a few rooms that are, this room is all political t-shirts starting as far back as I can get. When was the first one made? Who knows, whatever. Could have been some guy sitting at home. Like I have a Jerry Lewis sweatshirt that on the back, I think I showed you. Jerry Lewis, 7 p.m. on NBC, Tuesdays, whatever it is. Somebody made that at home. It's on the back of the sweatshirt in the 60s so they can walk down the street and advertise. Oh, there it is. Yeah, yeah. That's the stuff that I want people to know exists in a museum. Why is that not in an art museum or a pop culture museum, media, all this stuff? Yeah, maybe Dan would get into it. Dan's into cool shit, you know? Partner up with him. I send him t-shirts that he buys all the time. I go, dude, this is so up your alley and he gets it. And it's like, you know, some guy in the 1960s was a sign painter and he had a shirt that he hand painted or whatever. That's, Dan loves that stuff. You know, I love, that's why we get along and why we make the art. This kind of ties it together. I realized this at some point. The reason we work so well together and the reason our art looks like this and sounds like this is because we are obsessed with these things. We wanna be surrounded by, I mean, you could see, well, it's dark, but I have all these collections and stuff because that's what makes me feel comfortable. Why would I not want to create something that I would want to collect myself? Like you said about Metallica, you know, or Iron Maiden wearing their own shirts. I wanna be able to love it as much as I want or hope other people will. And if this is the stuff I like, a bunch of old crap you find at a flea market, well, that's naturally how my things are going, that I create are going to look. That's how the shirts I'm gonna collect are going to feel to me. And it really is just a matter of being so in love with this stuff your whole life. And it never changes. It's never changed for me. It's never changed for me either, ever, ever. And no one, that's why I knew when I started talking to you, I'd just go like, it's rare that you meet people who have, I've gone through phases, you know, I've had short hair, I've had long hair for whatever. But ultimately, if you said, what's your favorite, you know, so and so B-side or whatever it was about music or whether it's about art, it's always gonna be the thing that blows my mind the first time it blew my mind the same way. My favorite album cover is the, you can't see it, but it's an Engelbert Humperdink record, literally. Cause I would see it at thrift stores all the time and the cover, you've seen it, but it's his, I'm sure you've seen it, but it's his name and it's so long that it starts to curve around and it goes down the side of the record because his name is just too big. It couldn't fit comfortably on the front of the record, I assume, and the designer thought, this guy, this effing guy with his long name, it doesn't, I can't make it fit. I'll just make it go off the side. And it's a basic photo of him. It's not crazy flashy, mind-blowing artwork. It's so simple and funny, which again, comedy is the other thing that I obsess over, and that's hilarious to me. And that's what I love and I've always loved that album cover and you could have asked me 20 years ago, what's the funniest or coolest album cover? I might've tried to be cool about it and said injustice or something, or even back in black is so, that to me is perfection. But when I see this Engelbert Humperdink record, every time it influences me to just think a little bit differently to think that this has been funny to me and this record came out when, you know, 1967, I don't know when it came out. And that's what I love, the stuff that I've always loved and the stuff that you can progress as a person, you can progress as an artist, but you've connected to these things in your past because they're relevant to you. And when you meet somebody like you who gets it, I can't tell you how validating that feels to a person, you know? It's just amazing. I mean, I think it just has to do with just massive amounts of passion, you know? I think back to just stuff I've have, evil Knievel dolls, Bionic Man doll, promotional bendable dolls from Jacket Box called the Bendable Buddies, the Onion Ring Man, you know? That kind of stuff. It's just in my soul. And- That's it, totally. It's just in there. It's just in there. And when you meet somebody else that has it, it's wild. You know, sometimes I'll sell a shirt on eBay, a rare one, and I'll meet the guy maybe in person, they come walking up, I go, ah, here comes me. You know, you just know the guy's wearing the right glasses, the right boots, some jeans or whatever, you go, ah, this fucking guy, he's cut from the same cloth. The best part about that guy is that, or that woman in my case, I've connected with a couple people in general who, they could be any age. Yeah. I've met kids who are 12, that I talk to school sometimes, to students about art. And I can meet a kid who's 12 and I just go, wow. And I'll tell the teacher, like, this kid is special, you need to pay attention to this kid because even if you know it, that soul thing that you talk about, it's inescapable, you can't help but notice it. And some of these people I meet, they might be in their 60s or their 70s, they might have lived a completely different type of life that I did, but you connect on this love of these things that brought you, or for me when I buy collections off of people, I know how much joy it brought and I want to know every story because for every story they have, I have one that I could tell. Yep. And I've never heard theirs. And to me, the human connection and is more important than anything, especially lately, you know? Oh God, yeah, for sure, man, for sure. Well, I can't thank you enough for doing the show. I can't thank you enough for making one of the greatest shirts I'm so fired up. They're gonna be done next week. We'll be sending them out and I can't wait to see the Dark Fonzie design. Yes, yes, I'm starting that next week, finally, because of that. Marin Del Rey's band, Dark Fonzie band shirt. And I hope to hang out with you one day in person and just spend some time with you and work with you on some projects because you get it and I get excited when you get excited, you know? It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because our brains are already thinking of the things that each other are thinking about and we, it's like the thing everybody says, like you can complete someone's sentences. Yep. When it's not even out loud, that sentence, which is how I feel I could connect with you, definitely how Dan and I connect where he says, hey, can you try this? And I go, I was just about to send you that. Yeah. I know that I tried to make that orange or whatever, that that was the thing it needed, but because we have that connection, you know? I did want to leave you with one shirt if that's okay. Hell yeah, what are you talking about? This, this I had the realization, maybe more than the Springsteen shirt is the most important shirt I've ever had. Yep. Before I was born, my dad called in on the radio station as you used to do. Absolutely. And they were giving away. Caller 10, Caller 10 gets to pair of tickets. You would be like, I don't know how to tell what number caller I am, but I hope that I'm this very specific number. I used to do it as a kid. And so my dad calls into the radio station, probably WMMR in Philadelphia, and he wins an Aussie shirt. Wow. My dad, yeah, who doesn't love Aussie? My dad wasn't a huge fan, but of course he liked Aussie. He gets this shirt. There's pictures of me as a baby, literally a baby drenched in this gigantic solid black Aussie shirt, bark at the moon, bright colors. He's a werewolf. He just looks crazy, scary, but I loved, I loved horror movies. Yeah, he's doing the pose. And so I have pictures of me as a baby wearing it. I get to elementary school. I probably wear it a little bit. It's huge on me. Middle school, I wear it. Some kid says to me, what do you know about Aussie? You don't listen to Aussie. And I didn't know a ton. I knew the hits. And I knew a couple of songs from random things I had. And I told him, he goes, you don't listen to Aussie. And it made me feel like totally not valid. Like I could like it and put me off. I get to high school, of course, I love Aussie by then. And I wear it then. Eventually I cut the sleeves off because I'm an idiot, whatever. Yeah, all my first shirts, the sleeves are gone, gone. What's the difference? You're still gonna wear it at that point, then you're walking around with the gun show. Then you realize like, oh, maybe I'm not that guy. You know, so this shirt has been on every single tour I've probably ever been on as my night shirt to sleep in on tour. I've worn it just consistently for years. This used to be an Aussie shirt. Well, you could still see it on camera with the lighting. Yeah. Dude, there's paint on it. Look at the back. It was the hand scratching down the back. Wow, dude, it's so good. I wanna gather all the photos, but there's a picture of me every decade of my life pretty much at least one photo of all the phases I went through. I always wore this Aussie shirt. Look how great his logo is too. That thing, I mean, his logo, whoever created that for the Blizzard of Oz and carried on forever, crushing logo, so unique. And how do you think of just putting little like lines in the middle of the, what, what is it? I don't know. It is the one of the, yeah, it's one of the best logos. You're totally right. It's just so great. Oh, God, yes, it is a great, great logo, man. Wow. And I've been wearing that shirt. I was born in 85. I think this, this one is actually from 84, I believe because it's like two versions of this tour shirt. Yeah, sure. I got the first version where he's like, you know, it's just kind of the cover. Yeah. And, and I've had that, yeah, I've had that my, literally before I was, you know, my whole life. So that, that is probably my favorite most important shirt. And I'll never, you know, somebody could, could offer me $10,000 for one of my dad's shirts and I would tell them to go f off. Like there's, there's just no way you, you can't put a price on it for me on t shirts in general. Like for me, it's about the connection. That's why I give so many out for free to my friends. That's why I sent you shirts. Cause I said, when I first started talking to you, I go, I need to just get this guy's shirts that he'll care about because I have them and I rather give them to somebody else. I have plenty of shirts. It's not a, it's not about having the most. It's about getting them where they belong. And if I belong with 2000 something shirts, then I do. But I might meet somebody tomorrow who's dad. I literally met a guy. Sorry, I promise I'll let you go after this. But I bought a collection off of my friend, Cindy, who I told you worked for the Plasmatics and her husband was the sound guy. And I got a bunch of her shirts and one was for this band called Cats. They were a local band like South Jersey, maybe Philly. They were signed to Electra. They put out a record. It didn't get pushed. I looked it up. I thought the shirt is great. The album is pretty cool, new, wavy kind of. I think produced by Rick Ocasic for some, you know, part of this, whatever. This guy who I play shows with in his band, amazing musician, he posts on Facebook something about his dad, a picture of his dad who passed away, a song, maybe, whatever. I go, was your dad in that band, Cats? And he goes, yeah, I got the Electra band. So yeah, I go, hey man, I have this shirt. And I don't know if you have any of these already or you've seen one or what, if you want, I would be really love to send this to you. Yeah. And it kind of, you could tell it kind of, what? You know, when would you ever see that band's shirt? But my friends who worked at music venues, they saw that band play probably 50 times. It's amazing. And his mom is in there commenting, wow, I can't believe this. You know, and I sent it to him and I said, hey man, this could have ended up being my favorite band. Yeah. Your dad who is no longer with us, and now you're a musician who is an amazing musician putting up, bringing this legacy, continuously carrying us on. And for me to give somebody like that, that shirt. That's beautiful, man. That's beautiful. That's, to me, that's like the, I feel like I did a good, a mitzvah as we call it. You know? Yeah, yeah. Thanks for doing the grail. Yes. Thank you for having me. That was amazing. It was amazing. I knew it'd be great. And I just love your story and I love people to hear about artists and how they get out there. And like I said, don't ever, you know, don't ever underestimate how much we need art in this world. Even if it's billboards, believe it or not, billboards break it up for us. Tell everybody where to get a hold of you on Instagram. Yeah, so at Perry Shal. Shal, like the word, S-H-A-L-L. And it's probably that pretty much anywhere you could find me, PerryShal.com is the website. Get a hold of you to do projects, yeah. Hit me up. I mean, I'm always too busy and I always try to say no, but I can't. I love, I love, I stay up till two in the morning working. I love it. I'm so lucky, especially in times like this, to be able to connect with people who like it and want me to have anything to do with them. That's great. You know? That's great. Well, one day we will have a Philly cheese steak together. Give me a Marcus. Yeah, Marcus came. For all the Marcus's we can fit in. Both Marcus. Mary, Marcus Price. Marcus, Marcus, Marcus. Marcus, Maron. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Marcus Price is a beautiful name. If your name starts with Mark, we want you involved. We'll all sit down and we'll fucking destroy some sandwiches and tell some jokes. We'll love that. Looking forward to it. Thank you, brother. Thank you. Candles lit, my man. See ya.