 Think Tech Hawaii, Rule of Law in the New Abnormal, whatever that may be, and welcome. We have just another truly stellar Paul Starr panel here today. I'm going to start with Professor Renalia Randall, Professor Emerita, University of Dayton School of Law, and one of the leading experts anywhere on race, racism, and the law, which is particularly germane to what we're going to be talking about today. Ben Davis, Professor Emeritus from University of Toledo, School of Law, and now teaching with the University of Illinois School of Law in Chicago remotely. And Ben is in Virginia where he's been able to look at some historical presidential sites and ancestral homelands, in a sense. Tina Patterson in Germantown, New Jersey has mastered many trades, business, entrepreneurial, mediation, arbitration, both domestic and international. And Doug Shin, our former Hawaii Lieutenant Governor and Attorney General, now a partner at Starr and O'Toole, Marcus and Fisher, one of our leading commercial law firms. And welcome, Doug, with Professor Randall, Ben Davis, Tina Patterson. Today we're going to dive as deeply as we choose into freedom of thought, expression, and the restrictions on that, not only in academic freedom, but in all sectors that we're seeing put into place by particular groups. Which are the ones that concern you the most? Ben, you brought this up. You want to start us off? All right. So at the first level, I think there's an effort at, I've become aware of at the University of Georgia system to end tenure. All right. Now, most people out there say, what's tenure and what does it mean to me and all that? But what I can say in the academic space, at least for me personally, the sense of tenure was the opportunity to think freely on a topic and not feel any risk as long as you're a reasonable person in terms of not doing weird things at your school, but on any topic that you were thinking of working on and having the freedom to explore to whatever the views of powers that be might be on this or that point. It was that freedom that you get from tenure that allows for the more, I think, rich intellectual processes in university. So one part is the University of Georgia kind of threat to tenure that's going on now, and I understand others places too. Second aspect of this would be boards of trustees putting pressure on deans and deans possibly succumbing to the pressure with regards to somebody who is quote unquote doing something that is out of line with what some member of the board of trustees thinks is appropriate. And that kind of whispering in the ear to a professor that what they can't talk about this or that in their classroom, the distinction between Dean being able to maybe say something, which is a whole issue in itself, and the professor having the academic freedom in their pedagogy and what they're trying to teach their students in their classroom is a real concern that I have that people are feeling pressures like that. I know if people are feeling pressures like that and having to deal with it. And my concern is I know people who are leaving schools because they can't take the pressure. A third kind of issue of this is a professor talks about things that they think are important and you know some group of students in the classroom don't want to hear it. So they start a whole protesting up to the Dean and all that about this professor talking about things that they don't feel comfortable with hearing. Okay. And the professor may have the view that this is important. In fact, some case books may have sections on it that point point out that is part of the pedagogical process. This is helping people to understand whatever the rules are the particular topic is and this kind of again whispering to the professor to please don't talk about. I'm not talking about a professor being obnoxious or acting irresponsibly or anything like I'm talking about somebody who as part of their academic goal of preparing people in their classroom are being told to quote unquote trim their sales a bit away from what would be totally in another environment I'd say in three four years ago five years ago would have not been controversial at all and would have actually been something totally totally normal. Those are the kinds of things that that I worry about. The last one I just want to add is when you have legislatures that are passing laws and you can't talk about something in the classroom whatever that means because you know for example that there might be a professor who teaches environmental law and the legislature will pass the law saying you can't speak about climate change how can you teach environmental law to people when you can't talk about climate change you know what I mean but obviously critical race theory which by the way is carrying a lot of weight as a term not being able to talk about it. I live here in Charlottesville, Virginia okay Charlottesville, Virginia you know the capital of the south in the civil war race pervades this history but the blood is in the ground. Then I kiss I want to separate the the legislative action from the other kinds of things that you mentioned but my experience is that that's been going on I've been in legal education for 30 years it has followed me the entire 30 years of my teaching of the exact behavior that you're talking about. I got taken out of classes I got petitions made up against me because I was teaching race and racism I got told that it wasn't an issue of academic freedom that it was an issue of a dean's right and there was no media to rally around you know and I think and I'm not saying I was unique I think that that kind of thing was happening to people who was teaching about race and racism in the 90s okay wherever they happen to sit in the 80s and you know what really is different to me even 15 years ago there was discussion about getting rid of tenure so that discussion is not even new what's new though I think to this whole process is the legislature passing actual laws saying you know you can't talk about that and I'm wondering if this is I you know if I'm wondering if this is sort of like they know that cannot that it really can't stand up under challenges but the idea is to damp down the discussion while challenges are happening which could take year two three years to overturn the laws so I'm not sure that I think the laws are legal I think the but the impact will be that until they are litigated out uh it'll have an impact of damping's discussion but I think that's the only difference I see not the other thing you mentioned but okay well then what I would say to you is the common denominator of all these things for me is instilling fear okay instilling fear in the professor as to what they're going to do to create a second guess idea in the professor's head and you know I'm not going to go down with the old chilling effect thing I'm just saying that the you know it's enough fear trying to get to tenure okay I mean about you know whether everyone in the faculty will vote for you and all that stuff okay but in addition to that now setting up rules that uh have the effect of making a professor hesitate like oh my gosh does this term I'm talking about like uh the water crisis in Flint is that talking about climate change so I can't talk about it because uh somehow that might be conceived as being related to climate change and climate change is something I can't talk about I mean that kind I know that sounds crazy but I'm telling you that that instilling that second guessing in your head as opposed to you being in the pedagogical space of trying to teach what is the things that you think are useful for your students to be uh uh the best prepared for what they're going to have to face out in the real world that is really what I feel is about trying to get us all to feel fear okay and fear in this sense that obviously oh my goodness you're not going to get tenure or or alternatively it's fear like you're going to be moved around all the kinds of things that you describe but these are all efforts of instilling fear and right now it seems to be that there's an an effort to really heighten the amount of fear and to basically repress thought or intellectual intellectual uh adventurism intellectual uh exploration to have something that even seems a little bit like trying to have a part party line and uh it's very totalitarian to me especially when the legislators get involved that's the word that came to my mind is that this is a very totalitarian you know remaking the past in terms of what is acceptable I heard one professor talk about a lot of their students have had the disney version of american history and that they are confronted with this and trying to explain them and I know professor at randall you've had to spend time in your classes just having people understand the history you know because you can't even get to the theories because they they don't understand they don't even know the history and uh and that can become traversal just to tell the histories differently here's one thing I will tell you that I learned recently when I was visiting james madison's plantation which is that the marquis de lafayette in 1824 when he was doing his national tour sort of everybody thanking him for what he did in the revolution a war visited uh james madison for four days at his plantation and the first two days he spent talking to the slaves or the enslaved people about what they were going through and at the dining room table when he was there with madison he spent a lot of time trying to convince madison to get rid of his slaves to free them I hadn't heard that until I was out at the plantation I know about marquis de lafayette from all we to know about from back in the revolutionary war park but apparently even said you know I'm not sure I would have come back here if I knew you were going to keep your slaves well now was that controversial you know that's history that's reality but that that that kind of thing might be oh you're talking critical race theory or something that's got to be I still I still feel like that I I understand what you're saying and maybe it's just I've been fighting this so long that it doesn't feel different to me it really doesn't feel different to me it feels like more of the same uh and uh and I don't know I mean it is not a feeling steer but it's been about instillings instilling fear as long as I've known it and let me ask you and just one sec before let me ask you folks is there another very real very practical very threatening aspect of this fear and that is the legislatures state and national those are the funding sources for all the public schools k-12 and university and gretch school well sure you know there there've been clinics that send a message that right this law may not be enforceable but when you come back to us for funding if you are on the wrong side of this law guess where you're going to be on our priority list yeah there there are clinical programs that have uh you know obviously somebody with some insignificant power of business interest has been upset about some of the work that they've been doing and they put pressure to try to get those clinics made to be disappear because at law schools because they were taking on cases that were uncomfortable to that particular business interest you know but didn't it start about 12 years ago that I'm just saying that that that that that people that the clinics were threatened that have been threatened for the last 15 years by conservative groups who and laws have been passed as a matter of fact I'm trying to think which state actually passed the law saying that the law school clinics could not represent people from a certain group uh and that's you know that's been around a while uh and it's a problem I mean I'm just saying this this is this is a package okay this is what we're going through in this period now I can tell you in the 30s I know that there were people who were talking pro union stuff at different universities who are professors and they would get hassled about their pro-union approaches that happened to Toledo when I was there unfortunately Toledo had a point of view which was that you know hey academic freedom the person is free to do the research that they want to do you know but let me add another one that's in this game is that uh the public and private version of the of the professor a professor goes to something as a private person and you know how you're at it anything that you go to pump buddy might ask you uh uh general chin so what do you do you know I was the former I'm working with a law firm or used to be the attorney general something like that or somebody asks you uh uh miss Patterson you know what do you do oh I do this to that right okay all right and then you get an article put up like I don't know attorney general goes berserk in meeting you know like that right you know you know right and uh maybe even letters get sent to the governor right or to the head of your law firm where it is saying we are shocked that you know uh this partner said this thing or kind of thing like that when you were acting completely in your private capacity or were shocked at where you work uh uh miss Patterson that they you know and that kind of stuff I've seen happen too you know and in fact that happened to me once it was really funny because I went to a true the vote meeting because they're talking about voter integrity back in 2012 and I asked a couple questions the place went crazy on my questions right I was the only black guy in there was anyway they called the police on all me oh I mean I'm kind of good and then I you know I there was an article put up saying you know law professor goes berserk now how do you know it's a law professor I'm talking to the guy today well today what do you do oh yeah you know I I work down here I'm just here you know seeing this is like ordinary citizen I was accused of being a compliant of the Democratic party to be in conspiracy with the New York Times you know I mean I'm giving you all the craziness and this got back disagree I just think that in 1987 I was working for bull event how's your daily pentagraph in Hoffman in Portland Oregon and I went to speak to a junior high school and I've always been political so uh and I pretty much told them that everybody was racist and they should say so right that and we should deal with it when I got back to my firm you can bet the pressure was put on me oh sure okay I mean I mean the thing is is that let's deal with the legislative component because the personal pressure component is one that has always been around and will continue to be around even professor Randall I hear you but the personal pressure part two as well as the legislative for me are all part of the same thing and the battle we have is to fight those things that if you are in a that law firm and if they're going to like make you lose your position so to speak because of what you said in that kind of setting that's a comment on them not on you understand in the in the in academia there's this kind of intellectual process you're supposed to go through and intellectual exploration that is crucial to helping our country I think become a better place and really want to protect you I just want to add something here just to bring it home back here to Hawaii I I want to thank very much the academics here for for just constantly speaking up and and and I want to encourage you to keep doing that more I'll tell you a quick story which is that my parents were brought over by Christian missionaries to the United States and and so as a result I was raised in a very sheltered very conservative religious background that taught me a lot of great things taught me a lot about faithfulness and perseverance and mercy and things like that it also taught me a lot of not so good things in terms of you know in terms of like kind of just what I would think about LGBTQ issues what I would think about whether or not minorities should speak up or whether we should just go along and just you know let things happen and never say anything and there was a lot about there was a lot about my own culture that taught me about you know perhaps wrongly about about uh just being a model minority and not saying anything so to me I always think to myself when I look back in my life and go how do I go from this conservative sheltered background to like being a Asian-American who then sued the president for a Muslim ban how did that all happen I'll tell you what it was it was it was my undergraduate education and it was my law school okay so I went to Stanford you know I actually I actually remember writing to the people at Stanford saying I'd like to have someone who's my roommate who will be the same religion as me because I feel more comfortable with that and they just know that's not that's not what we're about and you know and then and then the same way you know when I went to law school I remember being challenged and hearing so many different different viewpoints that I resisted honestly because of the way I'd been raised and yet it stuck with me they were seeds that were planted inside me that that the longer I the longer I lived and the more I experienced things I was able to you know like change and evolve and grow and and I just want you to know that that you're you know even when you think you're falling on deaf ears or you're feeling all this pressure that that as somebody who was one of the students who came from that background I needed to hear that like I needed to be told no you're going to listen to a different viewpoint and and to be able to think differently about something because I think it really it really helped me along the way so so I appreciate that just thinking about things locally here there is no question that that the legislature every single year holds their funding of our universities over their heads and I know that for people in Hawaii we tend to think well we're not we're never going to get to that place where you know our progressive values will be challenged but I think that's something to always be careful of because I think Hawaii will often look at what's happening on the mainland and then you know and then start adopting some of those things into their rhetoric and so so I appreciate the warning signs you know if not the actual signs of racism that could potentially be pervading and causing our academic freedom with freedoms to be stifled yeah but let me give one more second okay because I wanted to ask Tina we're hearing now about the role and the value of this freedom of thought expression to contributing to leadership abilities to stand up to speak up and the individual abilities what kind of difference has that made in your life Tina what learning experience that you've had that have enabled you to stand up speak up take choices and chances and risks I think much of Doug indicated it's the being in an environment where intellectual curiosity is welcome and supported um undergraduate school it was encouraged to ask questions to to challenge to to literally make your own decision to give him what was presented to you to do the analysis thoughtful analysis intentional analysis I think back to your original question that's one of the things that concerns me most is that we're we're seeing and we're being bombarded with the message of you don't need to think about it I'm telling you this is the message this is the message you're going to carry forward um whether it's everyone is going to be the model african-american the model asian the model it muslim um this this is the message that you're going to carry forward and drawing or moving outside of the lines has consequences whether that is losing your job being presented in a such a way whether on social media or in the newspaper so um I think ben you talked about this but I think it really really being um vigilant and knowing that there may be a price that you you'll have to pay for for taking that stand as as we were talking I think about the book how democracies die and it's this it's that attack um and it's the attack on the leaders those who are take a position that are is not favorable or favorite as well as those who are you know holding status quo um you know right now there's this tug of war and I think about what you said Doug I'm recently graduated from the public leaders for inclusion council um cohort and it was focusing on islamophobia and I thought how are you know the focus recently in the media has been about islamophobia but where have we seen this repeated elsewhere and it's the same message of where do you stand on this do you do you take a stand or do you just go along because it's good for whatever fill in the blank whether it's your your purse or your your reputation or your long-term career goals yeah I understand very much this this whole idea of like being this motivator I remember just you know like even as a as a young student feeling like feeling afraid you know like I'm afraid to hear a different viewpoint because somehow that would you know mess me up you know and and and it took professors and counselors and mentors being able to say don't be afraid like it's okay to think about another side to this um and and I needed to hear like even like the smart guy I was you know I was going to there like I I needed to hear that in order to you know to develop and to become a more full person so so I really appreciate that I even thought about the the fear of like just what Tina was just saying about you know having a fear of you know Muslims and you know to me I thought one of the greatest like one of the greatest rewards from being able to bring the lawsuit against President Trump was meeting the the Muslim folks the people in our community and and just hearing their stories and speaking to them and and realizing that there are so many stereotypes that I have in mind since 2001 that that was from the message that I've been hearing so much from everybody else that that just being able to like meet them it was it meant so much and yeah and so and so I really appreciate that this is you know like we really need those academic freedoms in our last couple of minutes and from each of you what's the kernel the most important thing we really need to stand up and speak up for now to protect freedom of thought and expression in our learning how do we do that I think we need if I jump forward it's very difficult um whether case through 12 college or in a graduate program as a teacher but I do think that whatever the level you're at you have to model freedom of thought for those who are your students there's a wonderful image always comes to mind it's an old Charles Lawton movie called this is our land where he's teaching these little kids in France and the Gasapo are coming along to arrest him and so he finishes sort of with a wonderful soliloquy and then they're starting to take him out and they grab his two arms as they're taking him out the door and he does this one move with his arms where he just goes like that which is like I walk out of my classroom as the professor okay I'm not it was like this kind of academic freedom even though the system is going to come down on him it was this act of defiance against efforts to make to diminish him as the person who was in instilling information to the best of his ability to his students and I think you know I personally thought they always get moved when I see that little scene in black and white about what we could you know what is possible now there's a lot of fear though okay there's a lot of fear I respect that there's a lot of fear and you know fear to be a motivator I mean I've always felt like I've always used fear in my life to move me to move me forward to move me ahead to to do something to use that tension in my body to step out of where I am as opposed to withdraw but one of the things we didn't talk about which I I think we should I'm not for complete freedom of thought I don't want racist sexist homophobic transphobic thought in my classroom I'm sorry about it and I will facilitate you trying to move out of it but you will know that what you said what you did is completely unacceptable to me uh you had that thought but no not all thoughts are acceptable I'm laughing because my my foster mother used to say to us you can think what you want but you can't say everything and I you know I think that that there is some truth in that that that and part of what we've gotten into is the feeling that if I think it I can say it and then I don't want any backlash from it because that's my freedom to be able to do it so okay so we're going for boundaries yeah that's a great insight and thanks much for us we're out of time for today but we've dive pretty deep into what our responsibility to truth really is and part of that is the freedom to be able to get to it through critical thinking but another part is the responsibility to put that truth first and not to sacrifice the truth for the sake of irresponsible freedom it's a good place to wrap up today it's a good place to come back to and let's see where that takes us next time folks thanks for joining us think tech Hawaii keep us in mind our donation month begins November 1st and we'll ask you to support us to the extent that you feel it's worthwhile and can for us a Randall Ben Tina Doug thanks so much for joining us and come back again in a couple of weeks we'll be back