 Okay, folks, good afternoon. In the interest of time, we're gonna get started. So yesterday's MLK at City Hall, where we had a capacity audience and today is made possible in part through the generosity of M&T Bank, Ben and Jerry's, the city of Burlington, racial equity, inclusion and belonging office headed by one of our panelists here, Kim Carson, Northfield Savings Bank, Key Bank, Howard Center, the Association of Africans Living in Vermont, Champlain Housing Trust, City Market, Spruce Mortgage, Fletcher Free Library, Echo, where we are at right now, Paul, Frank and Collins, the Waterwheel Foundation and the Office of the Mayor in the city of Burlington. A warm welcome to each and every one of you and a special welcome to our panelists. Some of these panelists have been here for many years participating in this event. Robert Tappell is unfortunately not gonna join us so instead of going down the list, I'll have each of the panelists introduce his or herself but collectively, I would like to extend a very warm welcome to the panelists and to you, the faithful audience on a cold Vermont afternoon. So the theme this afternoon, what would Dr. King say? On this his 95th birthday and so I'll start off by saying, you know, the good Lord would not have taken us this far and leave us but that notwithstanding, we still have much work to do. And so I call on each and every one of you to join me in continuing his message that we were robbed off when he was taken from us way, way too soon. So I'm gonna introduce our moderator, facilitator, Karen Stackpole, who's been on this panel for many, many times, many years and so greatly appreciated. Each panelist will have three minutes, three American minutes to present and then we'll open for questions and then we have a wrap up closing comments from each of our panelists. So without further ado, Ms. Stackpole. Thank you very much. The first thing that I will do actually is say, I'm with Paul Frank and Collins. We're always happy to underwrite things that Patrick Brown brings to us because we always have good educational opportunities and to quickly recognize Patrick actually who as many of you know is the executive director of the Greater Burlington Multicultural Center, Patrick has worked tirelessly as many of us know over the years to bring people like Carol Mosley-Bron who my daughter was delighted to meet when she first came. We had wonderful speakers yesterday and Patrick I just wanna give a round of applause to you for continuing to bring us amazing people. Sorry really, because I'm not loud enough. That's crazy. Anyway, thank you. So wanted to introduce two of my left and we keep joking about this in terms of whether or not I'm gonna call you the serious name that I have for you, Pastor Doctor Arnold Thomas who is a retiring pastor of the Good Shepherd Church and longtime advocate for racial justice here in Vermont. He is yesterday received an award actually for his lifetime of service and so thank you for joining us. And to my right is Kim Carson. She's the director for the city of Burlington's Racial Equity and Inclusion and Belonging Office. Thank you very much, Kim for joining us, appreciate that. And Tato Rezebi, did I do that? Okay, all right. All right, thank you. I was working on it. I watched her YouTube, actually it was on YouTube, it was a TED talk that you did that was amazing. I watched it this morning and I was like, I was very excited that we were gonna be on the same panel with one another. Thank you for talking about your immigrant and refugee experience here in Vermont on that and we look forward to your comments today, thank you. And this is Jules Torti and Jules is an attorney with the Civil Rights Unit of the US Attorney's Office here in Burlington and we thank you very much for joining us as well. So I think what's interesting is that as we think about today's topic, one of the hallmarks of the civil rights movement in the 1960s was nonviolence. And very specifically, Dr. King talked a lot about nonviolence and people like John Lewis also carried that idea forward even to their own expense, obviously. And when I think about this panel, I'm really interested to know what people have to say. Dr. King said very specifically that we must not despair, retreat or fear. Whatever they do, we will not use violence in return. We hope that our acts to act in a way that they will see the error of their ways and to approach people with respect and we want to live in peace and equality. And so my first question for the panelists is, is that still possible today? And what do you think Dr. King would say about that message today when we live in a world where there's lots of violence? So. Thank you, Karen. Can everyone hear me? Yeah, just pull a little closer there, yeah. As far as the question is concerned, I think Dr. King would still be a strong advocate for nonviolence, but I think our advocacy and I support that as well. But I think our advocacy must also go hand in hand with a conviction and an articulate vision of what our nonviolence efforts wish to achieve. And I think that it has been lacking on as far as a moral and political vision of what this nation stands for. I believe that Americans and the world as we become increasingly, as our demographics become increasingly majority populations of color, we need to articulate what our vision, not only for America, but for ultimately the world in collaboration with other leaders, what that is all about. And I think we need to evolve into a nation that places compassion over capital. Compassion over capital. And that means that somehow we need to evolve into a nation where all citizens of this nation, all citizens are valued for the dignity of there being human companions with each other. And that our economy, our social efforts to evolve into a much more compassionate nation is one in where we don't place capital as a means of determining the value of another individual. To some extent that involves a graduated income where the wealthy of this nation pay their fair share with the rest of us in determining how we're going to uplift all elements of our population, regardless of race, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of gender identity, regardless of all of those elements that have historically divided us, those need to be the voices that determine how we're going to move forward and articulate our vision as a nation. I also believe that we shall overcome should become the national anthem of this nation. Thank you very much. Thank you for those comments. Kim, what are your thoughts? I think, can you hear me? No, I didn't think so. Is that any better? Yes. My mic's gonna fall, so I'm just gonna place my hand there. My work's a little different because it's not directly advocacy, it's more policy. And so as I think about violence, I think about it in a different way. My work is looking at specifically over the last year, so looking at racism through the lens of public health. And so when I think about violence, I think about the ongoing and pervasive violence against black bodies in not necessarily a direct way, but a systemic and indirect way. So when we're thinking about the social determinants of health, we're thinking about the economy, we're thinking about education, we're thinking about housing, we're thinking about healthcare. And when you think about the impacts that your skin color determines your health outcomes in America, that's violence in a different way. When I can't be physically, emotionally, and psychologically safe to go to school. When I can't be physically and psychologically safe to go to the doctor's office. When I can't be physically or psychologically safe to go vote. It's concerning to me that we're focusing, and I think a lot of times, on the violence of the oppressed and not thinking about the violence of the system and why the oppressed and the young and the disenfranchised are fighting and are speaking up. So when I think about violence, I would shoot that back to the majority and say, what are we going to do to start thinking less about changing people's hearts and minds and really getting active about changing these systems? Yeah, thank you very much. And I think the concept of systems, each of you has spoken to that. And I think sometimes, at least from when I hear people talking about a lot of these issues, people are talking about individuals, well that person shouldn't have done X and that person shouldn't have done Y. But as both of you were discussing, there are clearly systems, whether they're economic systems, whether they're legal systems, whether they are healthcare systems that actually set us at juxtaposition and put us in not the same levels or not to the same advantages. So those are really great points. Tata, what are your thoughts? Thank you. Can you all hear me? I'm getting over the cold, so I hope not to cough. So I wrote my response here and I'll be reading most of my response. I believe that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would continue to use and urge all of us to use the power words. An acts of non-violence resistance, such as protests, grassroots organizing as well as encouraged dialogue and education to continue his drive to build a just society. He was all about helping. In his letter from the Birmingham, Alabama jail, he wrote, and I'm sure you're mostly familiar with this, that injustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inspeakable network of materiality tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. The ills, injustices that happen in our community today do not in any manner whatsoever reflect what the men we are honoring today was all about. So we must go back to the drain board. I believe in our efforts to integrate, for example, the refugee population who I serve, to integrate them in humanity on building thriving communities. We must look beyond the color of our skin, the economic status, and focus on what we could build if we all worked together. In the words of Mr. Benjamin Mays, and I read this beautiful article if you get a chance and maybe subscribe to the Atlantic, I believe it's made public now. He said that Mr. Benjamin Mays was the president of Morehouse College when Dr. King was a student there. He said in his eulogy, and I quote, couple with moral courage was Martin Luther King's junior's capacity to love people. Though deeply committed to a program of freedom for Negroes, he had love and concern for all kinds of peoples. He drew no distinction between the high and low, none between the rich and the poor. End of quote. I end by a common saying that says love conquers all. Selfless love is everlasting and can cause us to serve one another. While saving for me is a vocation, I believe we are all called by God to love one another and serve one another. And as Dr. King said, life's most persistent and urgent question is, what are you doing for others? And he would say everybody can be great because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve in his ways. You don't have to make your subject and verb agree to serve. You only need a heart full of grace as soul generated by love. So I'm gonna end by saying that we all have the capacity to serve one another. And I do believe that it's one of the ways that we can really bring an approach to some of the ills and some of the violence we see happening, even right here in our community, in Wellington, in Vermont. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Jules, in the work that you do, how do you see these issues? Yeah, certainly. I think kind of fundamental to Dr. King's nonviolent approach is that there was another approach. And I think that what you quoted, Karen, about living righteously and letting other people see that and respect it was part of that. I also think that advocating for a better democracy and better laws was part of it. I've been reminded, thinking today about the give us the ballot speech, late 50 speech that Dr. King made where he said, give us the ballot and we will reform the courts. Give us the ballot and we will pass just laws. Give us the ballot and there will be judges that hand down just sentences. And I was struck by his belief in our democracy and belief in the power of the vote as kind of foundational and fundamental to the establishment of civil rights. I think that if he were alive today, he may despair at our system of voting. What good is the ballot if your district is so gerrymandered in order to make your vote not count? What good is the ballot if we can't be assured a peaceful transfer of power to the next administration? So from the point of view of, from what I do in the Department of Justice and what our current Department of Justice does, part of it is focusing on enforcing voting rights, suing states that have laws that put up crazy barriers like prohibiting people from handing a bottle of water to someone standing in a too long voting line. Things like making districts that look absolutely nuts in order to ensure that the people in power stay in power. So I think Dr. King's message of non-violence and belief in another way inspires me to make sure that the other way really exists, not just in name, not just that we have the ballot, but that our systems truly work for everybody. Because I think the foundation of an equal and inclusive democracy is an actual democracy. Yeah, and it's a really interesting point that you make too in terms of access, right? Access to the ballot. Some of you may know, but some of you may not. Based on youth or maybe you didn't learn this in school, but there used to be things like poll taxes. You specifically had to pay a certain amount of money to be eligible to vote. And that was prohibitive, obviously, to people who were not landowners. It was prohibitive to people who generally were not white, were not male, and so that was a way to say, well, if you wanna do this, you have to do this thing. See, everybody that does that gets to be part of this process, but you don't. So removing things like that. Reading tests, English tests, math tests, they're all kinds of things that have been used to qualify people to have the ability to vote through our history. And to dismantle those kinds of barriers has made it easier for people to vote, but there are still things that people wanna do, like I'm not gonna let you on a hot day, bring somebody a bottle of water while they're standing in line to vote. Frankly, I remember here in Burlington when my mom was running for city council, she was one of the first women ever to serve on the city council in Burlington. I remember getting on the phone and going, hi, this is Janet Stack, Pulse Daughter, do you need a ride to the polls? Just to make sure that you could actually get people to the polls. And so it's things like that, grassroots types of things, as well as obviously the changing of those statutes, I think that definitely makes sense. In terms of what we can do, each of us, before we open it up for everybody out there, maybe thinking about from the panelists, is there one thing that you can think of that each person sitting here today might be able to do to advance some of the work that Dr. King and his colleagues did to create a better opportunity for civil rights? Fundamentally, I think it's important that each person in this room, each citizen of the state and nation acknowledge their importance as voting or potentially voting members of this society. Jules mentioned that one of the fundamental efforts strives that Dr. King pursued was that of voting rights, and as we see those rights being taken away in so many ways, especially in states where the majority population is now made up of people of color. That includes Texas, that includes Georgia, that includes New Mexico, that includes California, all of those states now represent majority people of color. And yet there is a concerted effort, especially in Texas, especially in Florida, to marginalize and prevent those populations from having the final say. We need to assert our rights as individuals of this nation, as citizens, to exercise that right to vote. Take it seriously. Thank you. I'm reflecting on what you talked about, about voting rights, and I think as I sit here, what I think and what I've been thinking is as much things have changed, they've stayed the same. And so one of the things I'm reflecting on, as I'm coming up on my first, finishing up my first year here, is thinking about voting rights. Voting rights is an act that must be reauthorized. It's not absolute. And so that's part of the problematic piece of the education and why we have states and spaces that are trying to take away history. Because if you don't know your history, you're repeated. And things will keep happening suitably. How are black bodies and people of color protected in this country? What can we do? To be honest, I'm pondering that. Because when I think about January 6th, and we're still talking about what it looks like to storm the Capitol, what I think about it, what if those were black bodies and not white bodies? What would have happened? And so as I think about that and I think about what could we do in a state that is predominantly white? I say, what are you doing? I'm from Iowa. So I see a lot of times today we're doing the Iowa caucus. Historically speaking, this was the first time that the black and brown caucus, that is something that's been going on since the 80s, that a whole political party refused to speak to people of color about their issues. This was a non-partisan group. So when I say what could we do? Be loud, be active, take part. Just because it doesn't look like you and it's not happening to you, that doesn't mean you don't do something about it. Be knowledgeable, advocate, and don't give up. Persist, persist, persist. Get access. Run for those seats, run for those offices because we have a lot of people speaking for people of color, but not a lot of people of color in those seats talking about what they need. And so I'll leave you with this. If you are not on the table, you are on the menu. And so I would ask each of you to get knowledgeable and educated, but then for people of color, get active, get represented, and be there so that you are not on the menu and you can actually advocate for yourself. Thank you, Kim. Tata? If you're not on the table, you're on the menu. So speak up. I wanna reflect on a very recent personal experience. I've lived in this country for more than 20 years on and off. I do international development work, so period of that time I was traveling to other countries to do some work. Majority of the time I have been in the U.S. in Vermont particularly. I went to Costco with my sister who had just recently visited the U.S. for the very first time. And I was online waiting to be checked out. She stepped back to change the size of an item that she had. On her way back, the lady behind me started talking very loud so that I could hear her, that we were cutting the line and it was not right. And I looked back and in the most polite way said to her that she's not cutting the line. She had just went to exchange the size. And she became even louder and he said, it's people like you. It's people like you who make things hard for some of us. In that moment I thought, do I respond? Do I just keep quiet and let it slide? Or do I walk away? I vividly remember those three thoughts. And I thought, no, Tato, you cannot walk away. You cannot be quiet. You are going to respond. I said, ma'am, I will explain again that we are not cutting the line. And she became even louder and she said, I'm from here. I don't know where you are from. I did not know how to respond to that and it's very much unlike me. I'm generally a quiet person, but if I need to speak up, I will. A young woman on the other side of the line came up to this lady who in the moment I thought she was really bullying me. And she confronted her, literally went to her face and said to her, you are being rude. It became quiet. She was the only person, tiny young lady who went up to this lady and went into her face. I was a little scared, actually, that she was that close to her face. And I said to her, thank you for speaking up for me. I walked away, I found that lady waiting for me outside because I had asked her to leave the store because of the way she was being confrontational. In the moment I decided the right thing to do was to go to her and say to her, how do you think this conversation could have gone better? What could I have done to make you feel better? She was irrated, she was angry. And in that moment I saw an opportunity to engage and say to her, I may not have been born here, I have been a Vermont resident for more than 20 years. I belong as much as you do. I wanna do this better. How do you think we can resolve this before we part? So I walked away feeling that I haven't achieved much, but at the same time feeling like we need to speak up and very proud of the young woman who stood up for me. Costco was packed. She was the only person who stood up for me. So I was grateful, very grateful that somebody saw an opportunity. I saw it as an opportunity to educate, to engage and to look for a solution. So I would like to think that even in this times, Dr. King would say let's engage, let's educate one another and let's find ways of resolving issues that are really non-issues. Thank you. Thank you very much. Joyce. I mean I think if everyone had those conversations, had that level of courage in the moment. I think that would be the fix to be frank, but I was going to say something that frankly sounds very similar now, which is having the bravery to speak across difference and form genuine human connection across difference. I think that there are those who would weaponize difference and use it to their own advantage and want us to feel separate and want us to see each other's humanity. And it's uncomfortable to speak, I think, across difference a lot of the time, but I think if more of us followed that as example and did so, I think that would be an important step. And I think what's interesting is I think as we grow as humans and walk through life, as life changes, we each find different opportunities for that. And if you're willing to take that leap, I do lots of trainings for employers about civil rights and about anti-discrimination. And we talk a lot about implicit biases. I know a lot of that is your work as well. And one of the things that we talk about is that, you can take a look at somebody and you have an idea of who they are. You think you know their story. And what I always joke with people about is, you take a look at me and you can see the map of Ireland all over my face. That is not rocket science, right? And you can tell that I'm fed well, right? Those two things may be true, but you don't know that in my family, in my immediate family, there are people who are white, there are people who are Korean, there are people who are Chinese, there are people who are African American. In my immediate family, there are people who are gay, there are people who are straight. And so if you are going to be that person who's just gonna be a jerk, right? And who's going to attack somebody for those things, you're not understanding what that person's, you don't know, we don't know when we look at each other. And so to make those assumptions about one another just because of how they look, it still happens a lot, or how somebody talks, but if we stop ourselves, that one thousand, two one thousand, before we say that ugly thing, that might make a difference, you never can tell. And I think, looking at you, I'm thinking to myself too, that whole idea of using that Bible reference of love your neighbor, of be that person who's willing to be that change. Any thoughts on that, sir? Yeah. Yeah. Questions? Questions from you folks. Patrick, did you have a question? I'm just gonna invite you all to come up and ask your questions off the panel, individually, collectively. And I'm gonna especially invite the young folks. I look around, I see some young folks. It would be wonderful if you could come up and ask questions. Many of you are hearing about Dr. King and the civil rights era for the first time today because this history isn't taught in schools anymore, especially if you're from Vermont. So please don't be afraid to come up and ask questions. Excellent. We have some takers. I'm a very young person from Vermont. I just moved in there about two and a half months ago because it's supposed to be a very peaceful place, but after just a month, I realized the violence, the disease that we're living in this country, which is spreading the violence all over the world. After the First World War, from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Vietnam, Middle East, Africa, they actually running the economy by selling the arms and ammunition to all over the world. We also have got a waging war on the poor people. I see, I almost cry when I see, I walk in this beautiful park in the battery park and see these people are sitting there and sleeping there. So there's, we need to change the structure, this constitution. That's the reason I came, I'm originally from India, but I was living in Sweden, very secure medical system, education, they paid everything. But I came here and I see some people like Senator George McGowan and Constitution of United States that make me stay in Cambridge, Massachusetts for since 1968. But the more I'm living, the more it is changing to the thing. In the last few elections, we had two literally losers that we have to choose among them. So something we have to do, because this constitution is written by the humans and the human don't make anything perfect like nature, we need to change it. And any person with a criminal record with molesting the woman and this thing should not have been considered as a janitor of his school. And they are running our presidency and that is the main reason this democracy unfortunately is choking and we need to live my children, my grandchildren are going to be here and I don't want to be them growing in this atmosphere. They might be end up as homeless. Thank you, sir. Thank you for all of you to listening me do something about it. Thank you, thank you for your thoughts. And you are not the first person I've heard even this week talking about the fact that we may need changes in the US Constitution. And the good thing is, and I usually, I have run out of them so many times and it's the beginning of the year. I buy 2000 a year and hand them out all year long. And so I apologize that I don't have enough for everybody here because I looked today and I was out. But I carry pocket constitutions all the time and the bottom line is it is a relatively old document. It has been amended 27 times so it is possible to do. And as we look at what our systems are like we have changed them over time. I mean, there are a number of us on the panel. Most of us on the panel here weren't able to vote. Actually all of us on the panel weren't able to vote when the Constitution was first enacted. Period, end of sentence. And some of us sooner than others, right? And so the bottom line is that we can make those changes. They aren't easy, they take commitment and they take working hard. Do you have any thoughts on the question the gentleman posed or the comments? Gentlemen may. Yes, I do. I need to remind myself that a majority of the members of the Supreme Court wish to interpret the Constitution as it was originally intended. And that is frightening, very frightening. We realize that the original framers of the Constitution were white men. And when they acknowledge or when they espouse the belief that all men are created equal, they were specifically talking about white male landowners. And even the majority of white people were not really allowed to vote because they weren't landowners. And tell roughly about 1850. So nearly a century would pass in this country before the majority of Americans, regardless of race, were allowed to vote. And that remains the case. You have a small minority of those who are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the status of white male hegemony. And we need to try our best to prevent that from happening. Believe me, this nation is fighting for its soul as a democracy and only we who strongly believe in the essence of all people are created equal have to fight for it. And it's a fair point too that similarly, many of us on this panel in my lifetime, a lot of those laws have changed. Literally in my lifetime. So it's more recent than even that. Kim, thoughts? That's a tough one. I know there are lots of them. I think about interpretation, representation. Prior to coming here I worked for the Iowa Judicial Branch and so it was very interesting to see how different people interpret the same body of work which is the Constitution. What's hard is I continue to reflect that when these laws and even some of the amendments to the Constitution were done, we still weren't represented, right? The majority wasn't, those that were disenfranchised weren't represented. And so I think representation matters. We've seen a huge walk back of representation on the courts. We've seen an active role in changing the courts. I can share an experience with you. Working in government, watching entities start to change the process of how judges become judges. And then once they decide how judges become judges, who becomes nominated? Changes. Who is skilled to be the judge? I think we need to take some time and learn the process and understand the difference of the three branches of government and what that looks like so that when we are going to the polls, we flip those ballots over a lot of times. And if judges have to be confirmed and things that nature and put back on the ballot, that we're aware of that. That we hold our public officials accountable, not just to their words, but to their deeds, right? To their promises that are made. I think about Dr. King's famous speech, I Have a Dream. And one of the things I was, is I flipped through TikTok as I often do in the mornings. My kids who kind of got me a little addicted to that is getting those short memories and moments of other people's reflections about what's going on. And in that moment, one of the TikTokers talking about that I Have a Dream speech wasn't the actual speech that Martin, Dr. Martin Luther King was actually, and it was Mahela Jackson, the black woman that was in the background saying, tell them about the dream, Martin. Tell them about the dream. My biggest concerns were still living in a dream. It hasn't been actualized. We can't get past the dream because for some, my freedom looks like someone's nightmare. And so, it wasn't just about the civil rights movement. I want people to start to pay attention to the counter movements. What is happening in the background? When as soon as we have an African American president, the first thing we're doing is deciding whether or not he's a citizen. What are we doing when we start getting access and we start taking away the ability to educate children about the history of America? What is going on that we still cannot realize this dream? And so, I just implore you to get active, to be present, because for some people, the nightmare of accessibility is hindering the dream of everyone else and racism cost us all. So, I leave it with that. Thank you. Tata? Don't really have much to say in terms of constitution, but I'm thinking once again about the population that I have a privilege to serve, the refugee and immigrant population. A lot of us here in Vermont, and I would say this may actually reflect across the country, don't know the refugee journey. And I realize that there's a lack of us taking time to really learn who we are as a people who come to integrate and be part of this greater community, who literally changes the tapestry of this community to make it what it is today beautiful in my view. I look at how the court system, for example, and I'm in court a lot, I'm very much privileged to work with one of the hardest-working women I've ever come across in this community, Ms. Sandy Bird, who represent the poor, who represent people who are voiceless, who do not speak English. She goes to the court, we come back, we are very frustrated in realizing that the one, our very own clients don't understand the laws of this country. There is no simple way of understanding the court system in itself that's currently struggling, especially after COVID-19. And it just breaks my heart every day to realize that there's no knowledge that in fact, when our refugees come here, they are permanent residents and that they become citizens and have the rights to access the courts, to interpretation services, have the rights to know their rights. And that is not something that's easily talking about accessibility. I do believe that courts are not necessarily accessible, especially to the population that doesn't speak English. And I often think about what is it that we can do as a small community of Vermont to start the change, because I do believe that we can do something about it. And the things that we can do can actually scale up to other communities, to other states, and can become part of the law. I look at how hard we work in the state, how we are part of the city, so yet we cannot vote, yet we cannot do certain things that in reality we're entitled to. And it just takes changing some of the policies, some of the rules, the laws that exist. And I often wonder what would it take for all of us to do that? And I'm a firm believer in education, that if we took the time to reflect, if we took the time to think about what is it that we can all do to make Vermont, to make our cities better place to live and to be more welcoming. I do believe that we can achieve a lot. We just don't make the time to think, to learn more about each other. We don't make the time to think about better ways of changing the current systems to make sure that everybody can access the systems equally. Thank you. Thank you, Jules. Yeah, it's an interesting question whether the Constitution needs to be amended. Yeah, it's happened 27 times, but it is so hard. Baby Step is just making better laws, right? The Constitution is kind of supposed to be a floor and we build the structure of our lives and our government and our society upon it. And so I think that constitutional change, whether or not it happens, I think there's hope to be found in better legislation and legislative bodies that work effectively. So I would advocate starting there. Yeah, and I think that's an amazing thing about the great state of Vermont too, is that here, if our legislators hear from two or three people, that's a landslide of opinion. Because we're a small enough state where people will know who their legislators are. They're their neighbors and we have the ability to walk into our state house and find those folks. So even if it's not a big legislative change or something like that, that whole concept of getting involved, having your voice heard, can actually make a change in things. Do we have other questions? Other folks that would like to please? My name is Sandy Barrett and I've had the great privilege over the past three or four years of working at the Association of Africans Living in Vermont. I'm an attorney and all of my life, I've noticed one huge neglect on the part of all of our systems and that is the neglect of women and mothers and that is a very serious matter. It's not necessarily in our Constitution. Of course, women have the right to vote now. One of the things that we forgot to mention was the Constitution had to be amended. Remember that, to allow women to vote in the first place. But what I've noticed, I've worked at Legal Aid for years and now I've been a private attorney as well. That the biggest neglect that I see are with poor mothers. Fathers also, however, it's mainly the mothers who are raising the children in this society and that if we continue to neglect mothers as we have for so long, we are going to raise also and create a dysfunctional society. So in my work at AALV, what I've seen is over and over new American mothers but also poor American, old American mothers who don't have enough money to bring up their kids who don't have welfare anymore. If you'll remember, welfare reform that was accomplished in the, I guess in the 80s, was it? Under President Clinton, actually. If we continue to neglect mothers who are raising children on their own in poverty, we are always gonna have a dysfunctional society. And I've seen that at AALV where not only are they neglected in terms of money but mothers, particularly new American mothers but also old American mothers, have virtually no access to the courts. They don't understand the law. They have no access now because it's all electronic. It's all expensive. They don't have the right to lawyers either. So I would urge you all, that's mothers of color, it's also poor white mothers as well. So I would urge you to remember that in your deliberations. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thoughts? I am very much aware of that. I think that especially when you are mindful that many people of color come from matriarchal families, more than patriarchal families. And people who immigrate to the United States are often coming from cultures that were predominated by patriarchal systems, leaving them destitute in many cases. Not only from the countries that they come to but also within the country that they find themselves, the United States. We need to reform. We need to be mindful of those populations that are headed by women households. We need to be mindful of the plight that they face, not only in fleeing from countries but also in coming to this country that still tries to preserve a system that is, again, and I emphasize it, that wants to preserve a white male hegemony that has to be overcome. We have to evolve from that foundation into something better. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you. Just briefly, as I'm thinking about this and I was doing some work with UVM and we were thinking about health outcomes, I was blessed to have a grandson born in Vermont. He'll be one years old. And what I find interesting is the very interesting dichotomy between, as I've been in Vermont and learned more and spent time with, far more time with, especially refugee families, the parallels between those and black American families. My family has multi-generation American and came from the South as I call refugees to the North. And a lot of the stories that I hear my grandmother and my aunts and my great aunts tell as I listen to refugee women here with their families, unfortunately, sound the same. And that makes me really sad. What I do know is not only our health outcomes for black women, but when the intersection of not speaking English, it becomes even more profound. Mortality rates for women birthing children, for refugee women, are just for a country like America. It is absolutely ridiculous and their voices are not being heard. Finding a doctor. I called, and I share my personal story. I've been on a waiting list. We declared racism as a public health emergency. And a lot of black people, black and brown people can't get primary care providers. That's a problem. So I just, as I'm sitting here, sitting with my sister here, right? It greatly saddened me and listening to, and being a mother and a grandmother that with all the resources that America has that we're still in the same space, in the same place. And as your skin color and language access becomes a barrier, that is just absolutely profoundly, just absolutely disgusting of a country with the resources and what we have. And so I leave you with this, Vermont, as a state, and you say, you can talk to your legislators, you can go in the door. One of the things I haven't heard is that advocacy as Sandy's talking about for the most disenfranchised and marginalized, those that don't have a voice. I want Vermonters to stand up loud, not for just what affects you, but also affects others that are sitting next door to you. We welcome refugees and immigrants to our community, and then I feel like we forget about them. We give them a couple years and we say, figure it out. It saddens me when the experience of black Americans that have, we're here, Dr. Martin Luther King, and he's talking about this. And then we welcome people here and say, come, and we treat them the same, we disenfranchise them. So I really just lean into Vermonters who are very politically active that have accessibility to your legislature, to your city council of people, to really advocate those that don't have a voice, don't have access, and maybe don't even understand what they should be fighting for, fight for them and with them. Thank you. Tatto. Is this waving his hand? Sorry, I just was interested though, because I think Tatto has a perspective that I think we'd like to hear, and then I'll come to that, please. Sure, I'm just gonna quickly say that I'm gonna go back to my saying that love conquers all. Selfish love, I'm going to add. I believe that we have an opportunity to learn from one another. I believe that we have an opportunity to find common ground that we are mothers, we are grandmothers, and we can gather in a room we can gather. In our countries, we have these things that we call Kodla, where people come together together to discuss issues that are going on in the community. I am still learning about the African American history. I realize that there's so much commonality. That it's something that I do believe that Vermonters have the capability of doing. I have seen this work in Vermont. That when we all work together, we come together and forget about our differences just for a minute and focus on what brings us together as humanity, we can change the ills that we see in our small community. So I encourage all of us here because I believe that you are here because you care so deeply about your neighbor. Come get to know who we are. Let's sit down, let's talk about what is the commonalities that we have and what is it that we can learn from one another and what can we teach each other. Thank you, great advice. And Jules, I'll give you a first dibs on the next one. Is that okay? Sir, you had a question. Hi, my name is Jean-Vierre. I'm a grad student at UVM, and I just want to ask, what are we doing to deal with mental health crisis for people of color in Vermont because I mean, I've been living in Vermont for like 15 years and I have noticed a lot of people telling me you gotta leave because this place is really bad for your mental health. It's gonna kill, basically, Burlington is gonna kill you if you stay here because you're always the only black person around. Some of your friends are struggling with mental health. So my question is like, what are we doing to help people of color feel included, especially in the conversation of mental health? Thank you. Jules, we'll give you a first dibs on that one if you'd like. Yeah, thanks a lot. Yeah, sorry. No, no, I mean, I say that because it's a really tricky question, right? I think there's kind of two parts to what you said. One is like, why is there a mental health crisis among black people in Burlington? Why are people made to feel so marginalized that they're struggling? And then there's the question of what are we doing about it? So now that I've stated the questions again, I think I might pass it off because I don't know what we're doing. I'm not entirely sure that we're doing enough. Tata, do you wanna? Go ahead. I think that's a good question. I don't know if I have an answer. And I sit here as a board member of the Howard Center, which is an organization that provides services, primarily mental health services. I do think that there's a lot that we can do. I think there's a lot of work being done and I'm not sure if we are doing it fast enough to really deal with the mental health crisis that we are facing. We know that there's no enough bears at UVM Medical Center, for example, to accommodate everybody. We have to drive people out of Burlington to access services. Even then, when people get there, it's not that they adequate staffing in those services. There is no understanding of providing services to people of different cultures, which is the most frustrating part for me. And I don't think that we are doing enough to cultivate or to hire people who can serve the populations that look like them here in Vermont. I say this also knowing that there's a lot of work being done in the background. I don't know if I have an answer, but all I know is that we do have a crisis. It affects all of us, regardless of color, mental health crisis. It's in the rampage in Vermont. It just has affected all of us negatively. I really don't have much to add. I think she nailed it. I think there's a lot of work going on in the background. And unfortunately, there's just not a lot of resources. And so I think everyone is fighting nationally to find providers, to find culturally competent providers. I just think we're in a crisis in America to find accessibility for that. There was also, hang on one second, there was also a quick thing that you mentioned, though, too, in terms of being told, hey, you're gonna be one of the only brown faces in your community and impact that that would have. I think that's something that's not recognized enough either. As the mom of a black child, I will tell you that that has certainly been something that we as parents worked diligently to try and make sure that she had a community of families that she could be with because, and that we could be with and be in community with to give her a grounding so that she wasn't always the only in any room. She still is in Vermont at most of it. And now that she's looking for colleges, she's looking in Boston. And she's looking in Boston because she's very excited to not be the only brown person in a room. And so I think some of that has to do with it too, just in terms of that. And so I think building community is a really important piece to be able to do that. We'll give you an opportunity, and then, sir, feel free. I remember when I served a congregation that was predominantly black in New York City, one of the members came up to me and said, you know, when I feel stressed mentally or otherwise, even in New York City, she said, I don't go to a therapist. I go to church. And that was somewhat amusing for me because it implied that this person, as I feel many people of color are holding within them a desire to just hold it together despite the fact that they live in an environment that in which it is hard to find therapists, it is hard to find healthcare professionals who look like you. So we have to hold it together. We have to find other means by which we can maintain our sense of sanity in an environment that really speaks against us. And so I think, as Kim, you mentioned it also, I, as an African-American living in this state, in a rural section of the state, within my narrative, within my historical narrative, there is the fact that Medgar Evers was killed, assassinated, gunned down by a person who was in hiding as he left his car and tried to enter his house. Every time I get out of my car and I go home, every time I get out of my car, that narrative is in the back of my mind. And I pray that I will make it from my car to my house alive and there's no sniper, and I live in a rural section of Vermont, there's no sniper as out to get me. So that narrative is there. There is a sense that wherever we are, be it in urban or rural environments, we are not safe. And so we have to somehow hold it together. We have to somehow, despite the fact that the majority of healthcare professionals do not look like us, we have to find a means of trusting each other and holding it together and maintain a sense of sanity in a world that speaks against us. Thank you, very powerful. Sir, you had a question? Yeah, thanks very much. I mean, it doesn't matter. I hope people can hear me. The most important thing to understand ultimately is that people feel invisible, right? There's psychology of invisibility. We are one of the whitest states in the country. And yet in many ways, we have a lot of progressive principles. So we have this kind of incredible kind of contradiction of who we are. And the point is number one to start with is that there is $3.8 million available right now, folks know in the state of Vermont, for folks to become mental health counselors. It's pretty exciting. People know I just found that out. So that's available right now. So people want to get into the mental health field in terms of becoming a counselor. People who are African American or Latino or minorities, that's an opportunity to do that. So the good thing now is that financially, that's not an issue. But the biggest issue as the Reverend talked about is the issue of narrative, right? And so basically for a lot of folks have a certain narrative. We have epigenetics. We have a lot of different components of who we are as human beings. But the enormity of the anxiety that people feel when your quote not like us, that is very deep and profound. So I would kind of leave you in this, in a sense, we have an epidemic of loneliness. Doesn't matter you're black, white, Hispanic, Asian, other. That's a huge issue right now. The federal government is working on tackling it. This is such a serious problem. We saw it's so crazy. It's so bad that in fact it's like literally smoking 15 cigarettes a day as a result of what the Surgeon General talks about, right? So the point is what we need to do now is work together and get into communities and work in just, and even talk. Here's the most important. Unfortunately, I think the life is unfortunately Donald Trump will be president of United States in 2024. Scary as this is, that's just a reality. So the point is what do we do to work together in a community, work together and find people who are like us, who are not like us and sweat and get nervous and anxious. They say are we ultimately like everybody else in terms of the 80% as compared to 20? So that's kind of my thoughts. I appreciate you guys. Appreciate all the work that you do. Thank you. Thank you. So, and I guess that leads me to a question too of community, right? So building community in Vermont, particularly I think where people of color can feel comfortable, can feel heard. You know, how does that happen? How does that happen in a way that there can be because that can be a big support for mental health? So how can that happen? We'll start with you. Oh, I wish you wouldn't start. I wouldn't, I'll go other ways. Thought that, Kim, whatever? I'll start. Yeah, go ahead. I think first you have to understand we're not a monolith. That's number one. So we're not all the same, you know. We have different experiences. We have different lived experiences. I look around the room and understanding also the weight that we bear as people of color. One reflection I have is we are the work, we do the work, we live the work and we're responsible for the work. And that's a heavy burden for people of color. And so when you're talking about building community, I think also coming from the fourth white estate, right? I born and raised and then coming here, what I always found profound as the only one in the room as the gentleman talked about is I watch white people from all over the world come together and you can figure out how to say very complex Russian names and share experiences and look across the room and see someone that's white and you will play sports and through sports you build relationships and you do all these things. I was an Olympic athlete and Olympic coach and they talk about bonding and sports, right? And all these different things and what was most profound to me that no matter how good I am, I'm a two-time national champion, seven times all American. I can't think of a time where my teammates actually were my friends, right? When we're in this community, a lot of times it's black and brown people, you say we're your friends but are you our friends? And so when you're talking about creating a community of belonging, are you actually in community with us? Or is it always us extending coming to your spaces, coming to your activities? What work have you done to learn about something different? What have you done to create a space of belonging? And that starts with leaning in to understand, leaning in with curiosity, believing what we say when we say it, being comfortable with discomfort and not always making us carry the load, right? But also believing, I say this again, believing us when we say it and then actually doing something about it. I see and I watch white people of all different face of backgrounds be able to find commonality, but for some reason over all these 400 years that black people be here, we're still asking questions about your hair, right? We can't figure that out. We think you, in the medical field, we still think our skin is thicker. We haven't quite figured out that the postdoc machine works differently with brown skin and so we needed to do something different during COVID. We have people, world-renowned doctors online trying to figure out why black people are on their phone when they're in the emergency room because you don't listen and so we need someone to speak for us, right? We need to record it. And so I would ask the majority to think about how do you actually build relationship to people that look like you, the social construct of white, right? That you can be in community with someone that comes here from clear across Europe because their skin happens to be white but you struggle finding commonality just because my skin is brown, right? We probably have more in common as people that have been in the legal field, right? Then I would, would someone recently come here but you expect me to be, to understand every dynamic of every one because of the color of their skin. And so I would ask you just to start to think, learn, educate, lean in with curiosity, take the time to learn about who is in Vermont and then start creating the space of welcoming. We are foreign to your world. Welcome us. Learn about us. I think leading with humility too. Absolutely. It's also an important thing. And Tato, do you have a thought on that as well? I think you've really all said it all, living, leading with humility. As a black woman doing leadership during COVID-19, I learned a lot. I felt that, never thought that would happen in my lifetime in Vermont. I had to go to meetings every morning and fight. Fight for people of color to have access to COVID-19 vaccine, to have access to testing, to make sure that people understood what was going on. And then the burden was put on us and we were more than willing to take that responsibility of making sure that the space for people to get tested, to get vaccinated. And every day I wake up, I woke up and I still wake up, I think about how can we work together as a community? Because I do believe in building communities wherever we are. And I don't believe in the segregated community. I believe that as Vermonters, black, white, however we see ourselves, that we can come together and make our space liveable and we can work together as parents, we can work together as professionals, we can work together as students and make our living spaces comfortable. That doesn't happen. What I see in an environment where I get funded to do my work is that in fact, say where there's money is here is the money. What can you do with the money? It's not so much. What can we all do to build this community? So I sincerely believe in the idea of us going back to the basics of learning about each other, of sharing knowledge, sharing power, sharing spaces of decision making so that we can make this place a better and livable space. So I believe in communities and I do believe that we can do it. I have seen things happen in Vermont that I have not seen in other states. So I have so much confidence in all of us. Thank you. We'll take one more question. Yeah, we'll take one more. And then you guys can do rock, paper, scissors. I think this gentleman actually with blue was first. Sorry. Thank you. Hello. I've worked in the schools in the area last, last seven, eight years. And I haven't worked with many African American colleagues in the teaching field. And I wish that that weren't the case, that like my colleagues, like in my in staff meetings or faculty meetings, it just, it feels like it's kind of uncomfortable that like it's the demography of teachers is not more representative of the people in Chittenden County or in the United States. And I just, I wish that that weren't so. And I don't do the hiring and interviews. So I don't know a whole lot about that. But I wonder about that. And that's a wonder that I have. And I wonder if you could speak to that. It's been something actually that has been talked about and woven through. I think a lot of the comments here that I'm hearing anyway is when we think about diversity, equity and inclusion, those are phrases that get used all the time. That's training that everybody and their sister wants. They'll call and say, oh no, we need this training. Just come for an hour and tell us what to do. Because it's so simple. But the idea is that it really is about inclusion and it really is about creating community. And that's hard, right? That's hard to do for a lot of reasons. It involves a lot of humility for sure. And it's hard to be the only. It's hard to be the only in a room. And so oftentimes, and this is statistically true in the HR type world that I do, one of the jobs that turns over most in corporate America is that of the chief diversity officer and the usually black women. Why? Because they're brought into an office and it's just like, okay, fix this, right? Because we don't know, go ahead, you got this. And yet the resources aren't there, the understanding isn't there, the platform isn't there to really, and you can't expect one person to create community. So it's a really fascinating piece that everybody and their sister may be for this general idea, but building it involves inclusion and it takes time. I'll give you the microphone, sir. And then we'll have our final comments as well. And I think that a large percentage of people within the black and brown community, there's a growing suspicion, if not mistrust, of any organization that seeks to hire a diversity, equity, inclusion administrator because they know the kind of environment that person is coming into. It's often an environment in which the employees and the administration are saying, you come in, fix this, but there's no enthusiasm, there's no basis of strong support to make that happen. We need to remind ourselves, I think also, of a survey that the National Religious Institute produced shortly before the 2016 election. And that survey indicated that 75% of Americans, of white Americans, do not have any meaningful relation with a person of color. And that has only intensified after the 2016 and the 2020 elections. That remains so. In Vermont, that is even more intensified in that we are one of the widest states in the union. And when the majority of America becomes predominantly people of color, Upper New England will remain one of the widest states in the union, among the widest states in the union. It is interesting that the Iowa caucus is taking place also in one of the widest states in the union. That demographic, that mentality has to change. And I think part of that mentality of change will involve whites, white people, intentionally placing themselves in communities, in situations where they are not the majority. I strongly encourage students applying for college, white students, apply for an HBCU college, an historically black university or college. Place yourself in situations where you are not the majority. And you have to learn and grow and evolve in situations where you are the minority. Give it a try. Thank you. Jules, I'm gonna give you a shot at this because I missed you a couple of times there. No, it's okay. I think the question about educators of color is right on the money because I think when you're a little kid in school, the people in power are the teachers and the other staff members, right? They're the folks running the show. And my kid goes to a Burlington school where I cannot think of an educator of color. And that has been so hard for me to get over because I think what is this little girl seeing? Who is running the show in her world and it's a bunch of white people? And so I would love to see us do better in that regard. I would love to see us do better building structures where people of color can find community, people of color can see themselves in position of power, can see themselves as being in charge and see themselves as the baseline. And I think in schools, part of that structure means people of color in positions of power and authority as the adults in the room. And I think in our government, it means different things, having people of color being represented. So I think it's like whether you're in school or you're in the state house, I think the answer is kind of the same, building representative structures that can represent who we really are. Thank you, Tara. Don't really have much to say except, I think sometimes when I think about this is just the reflection of the population. I've seen professionals come in Vermont and leave almost immediately because of lack of support because of bearing the burden to effect the change that has been there forever. And I think I'll go back to let's work together to make a change, let's advocate together, let it not be for one organization or one individual at the city council to figure out how the city is gonna run in the DI office. This is our work, it's ours, this is our state, this is our country, this is our global village. Let's do this together. I just continue to concur with Tata. It's really, really important as I reflect on what he was talking about, about the heavy burden, especially for black women in this space of equity or DEI. Just this week, the president of Harvard is a black woman and then the vice president of student affairs at Lincoln University actually committed suicide bearing the burden of this work. And so I say again, when it comes to people of color but specifically too oftentimes the most marginalized which are black and brown women, you have to understand we are the work, we have to do the work, we have to live the work and we have to be responsible for the work. And so it's a heavy burden to bear with very little support and resources. Actively understanding that the country is trying to actually dismantle the work as you're trying to lift it up. And so what I would ask the people of Vermont to realize is Vermont is not, it's a part of the United States of America. And so when things are happening in other places, just because it's not happening here, it doesn't mean you don't have to work to make sure it doesn't get to your doorstep. So as we're banning books across the US, as we're dismantling access to education as we are closing offices on equity, when we dismantle equity, it impacts us all. And so just really being active and thinking about, again, how we build these inclusive and equitable communities that as Tatos said so eloquently, we all have to do it together. This is not something that you can just cut a check and say, hey, make a community, get included. It really has to be the work that comes along with that. Get over to AALV and not just give them a check, that's great, keep giving the check, keep giving the check. But also go and volunteer and work to serve. I'm gonna leave you with a quote from Dr. King. He talks about, you know, everyone talks about this day of service. And the quote that sits with me is, everybody can be great because everybody can serve. You only need a heart full of grace and a soul generated by love. And so when we get to the heart of who we are, if we leave with love, compassionate understanding and the ability to serve, we can create a community of what we dream or what his dream was. Yeah, thank you. I think that that's an amazing quote for us to kind of end on. I think when I think about what you just said there too, it is, isn't that our job to be in service to other people, right? That's the tradition I learned in a predominantly white state and a predominantly white family and those things, but I think it takes on a role where we need to stretch ourselves. You know, we need to stretch ourselves and we can't just say, oh yes, that's fine. Oh, it's nice to meet you. It's we have to be in service to one another. And if we know there's a part of our community that is suffering, that is needing community, literally just that and not just that check, but some help, isn't that part of what we do? And so, any other further comments? Do you have anything else you want to add? The only comment I have left is to, first of all, thank you. Thank you, Karen, and all the panelists here for participating in this effort. And really to encourage people, especially here in Vermont, and I emphasize the fact that even though we are one of the whitest states in the union, we are also small enough to get to know one another and to get to know our elected officials as well as our neighbors next door in trying to advocate for change and being the change. And so I really encourage you to take seriously your citizenship as a citizen of the state. Well said, and Patrick, we want to thank you as well for bringing these opportunities to us to have meaningful conversations like this. I think they are helpful to all of us. So thank you to my fellow folks, thank you. So thank you, Karen, and once again, on a day like this there's so much that we can talk about, only if time permitted we could talk about the disproportionate number of minorities of Africans, African-Americans, incarcerated in the prison systems in Vermont, there's so much we can talk about but I just want to take the opportunity to ask you to give the panelists and the moderator another round of applause. Thank you. Thank you guys, thank you very much.