 Welcome back on the chaos zone stage. I hope you had a great day so far. And after the Algorave talk, we're happy to host a talk by Andi Müller-Magun. He is a long time member of the CCC. Now he is at Wauer Holland Stiftung and he's also a data journalist. And today he will tell us a bit about things between WikiLeaks and the CIA. And this talk is some kind of successor for talks he gave previously. But for all the details, he will tell them by himself. And yes, welcome Andi. And we're happy to see what you can tell us and all the interesting details that are in your talk. Thank you. Okay. Good evening. So I named this talk when WikiLeaks bumped into the CIA, Operation Kudo Exposed. So explain a bit later what that is. Just as a reminder, the hacker community and the CCC, even in its bylaws, one of the core things has always been information wants to be free for the sense of the hacker ethics. I brought a small snippet from Vau himself where you will not hear the sound at this moment due to technical reasons. But where he talked about the hacking of society through freedom of information. My talk will have two parts, what happened so far and what should be done now. In the first part, I just want to refer a little bit on the context of what I'm talking about. So this is about what happened surrounding WikiLeaks in the context of the CIA and the United States government getting on them. I had two talks about similar topics already in 2019 at the, unfortunately also, no, that was still the last real Congress. I talked about the technical aspects of this violence. And you will see one image that I needed to copy from that again. Then last year, I talked a little bit about the CIA versus WikiLeaks interpretation tactics. That was more what happened to me and other surrounding WikiLeaks. Now, in the meantime, this year and of September came a very important article in this context on Yahoo News. It seems to have been doing that. Some guys have been hired there who previously worked for Newsweeks and others. The article from 26th of September is called Get Dapping Assassination at the London shootout inside the CIA secret war plans against WikiLeaks. And it did reveal quite some things. It finally referred to my talk. It links even to the video of my talk. It takes some quotes from it. It confirms a lot of it and adds a lot, but it also frames. And with framing, I mean, there is some disinformation. That's poisoning that otherwise very helpful article to understand what the fuck was going on. What I'm trying to do today is to reconstruct the whole thing a little bit to reframe it and help everybody to understand a little bit what happened here. The Yahoo article rightfully distinguishes the timeframe of the interaction, so to say, between the United States government and WikiLeaks into four to five timeframes. One of them at the beginning of the WikiLeaks project or let's say before Snowden, so before mid 2013, the Obama administration had, although the diplomatic cables have been published by WikiLeaks, Afghan, Iraq warlocks and so on were out. They had the view that as long as some entity or some people are publishing are engaging in publicistic in journalistic activity. There's nothing they can do because first amendment of the United States Constitution talks about the freedom of publishing the freedom of speech and the freedom that does include journalistic activity of all kinds. After the Snowden, not revelations, but the fact that Edward Snowden was getting from Hong Kong on the way to somewhere else, but he got to Moscow with the help of WikiLeaks editorial member, therefore in acting in what you could call journalistic source protection. However, that brought the US government to a slightly different view of WikiLeaks. They didn't really like it. So Obama allowed the intelligence community prioritized collection, WikiLeaks, search warrants, opponents, national security letters. So here we're not talking about, as far as the article mentions about the legal investigation, yet this is more intelligence work, like they allowed them to get on them. They also, in the context of the Snowden revelations now, where it wasn't WikiLeaks, it was Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poetras, who had been given by Edward Snowden the material, and they published the material together with Guardian, the Spiegel, others. I was personally also involved with the Spiegel, I should disclose. However, they tried to relabel not only WikiLeaks, but also Glenn, Laura and others from journals away to like information brokers. They tried all kinds of definitions to circumvent the protection of the United States Constitution, you could say. That went not that far. At least I have now actively knowledge of a criminal prosecution running against Laura and Glenn. However, there were for sure intelligence activities that they also reported on and everybody who was involved in the publications. As you might know from history, the Guardian was later forced to even destroy the computers where they had possessed the Snowden material and so on. So there was quite some things going on. In 2016, the next milestone in the change of the relations between the United States government WikiLeaks, to say it nicely, was the publication of the DNC emails that by the definition of the National Security Agency, like they said, this was goods effort to zero was the Russian military intelligence, the GRU, and that the whole publication was with the intention to hurt the interests of the United States. This now is a first point where we could sit back from our European perspective a little bit and say, wait a moment. This was about leaking. I mean, this was leaked emails or however, let's say it was emails that somehow got leaked, obtained or otherwise, but in any way WikiLeaks published them. What the discussion was about was how Hillary Clinton had treated Bernie Sanders as the other candidate of the Democratic Party. She obviously did not made it. She made it. So this we could call this exposing of facts in the public interest. But as I said, the United States at least National Security Agency and others seem to have agreed that this was, you know, intended to harm the United States, not what Hillary Clinton did, but what WikiLeaks did in this publication. I think it's important that we distinguish between how we evaluate these things and how the US government puts these into different baskets or categories. However, then it got much more wild when WikiLeaks started at the beginning of 2017 to publish with a so-called fold seven series. Some documents from the Central Intelligence agency from the CIA, Mike Pompeo was in charge of it. I did talk about this at length and I want to repeat this last year. So he got very upset personally because he was also potentially personal responsible for it. So it was under his watch, so to say. However, the framing aspects of the article are worth having a brief look. The, what happened this year was also that the key witness of the prosecution Icelandic guy called Sigurdur Tardazan made it public that actually he lied to the FBI and that they fabricated part of the evidence based on his lies. Also, they could have verified things. He later even was imprisoned for his multiple illegal acts and the Icelandic government saw it as reasonable enough to declare him a danger to society and therefore lock him up. And that's not happening that easily in a country like Iceland. Normally people are very calm and down to earth. However, the article came just after a few weeks after the publications on this fabricated evidence. And it's fair to say that the gravity of the Yahoo article was a lot higher and a lot more was discussed than about the fake evidence of the key witness and so on. However, one other aspect that was in the Yahoo article was a thing that is from my reading and I've talked to many people. There was no evidence for this whatsoever. The Yahoo article claimed that there was the Russian government also having like kind of officers in front of the Ecuadorian Embassy or in the immediate surrounding preparing to help Julian to ever create him, so to say, from England to sneak him out. As the article says, Russian Interpreting to Sneak Assange out of the UK. This is a little bit wild and it's double wild when one looks at how the involvement of the Russian government, how that upsets American people, American media and so on. This is such a polarized environment where the moment the Russian government is declared to be involved, it changes everything. What happened really here was something different and that is that Julian had in cooperation and in coordination with the Ecuadorian government found a way to legally leave the embassy and the United Kingdom. By becoming first an Ecuadorian citizen than an Ecuadorian diplomat and then in theory he would have been able to leave the UK because a diplomat on the way to a different working place has under Vienna diplomatic assurances is immune from any kind of interference. However, the article does reveal some aspects of what happened. For example, the kidnapping plans, the assassination plans that the US government considered this year a play through ways to kill him in the embassy to poison him, to kidnap him from there. These kind of extreme acts did not happen and the article claims that justice prevailed, the White House lawyers had doubts the National Security Council and the heads of the Senate and House intelligence committees ensured that these wild ideas because they were not compatible with the legal framework, not even with that of the United States, that that did not happen. So the article gives you kind of this American song melody of, yeah, we had some wild things that this year are going on, but you know, we are a democracy and we stopped it. However, there were some actions that were according to the article and the witnesses and lawyers had talked to well court out, extensive spying on Wicked X SSCAs, dealing with electronic devices. Then there were things there we could talk about like the article claims that to what was also carried out so in discord among the groups members. So now if any one of you is longer than a few weeks in a in a CCC like hacker club or working for a journalist organization or working in any other group. I mean, according to my little experience, there's quite a fight club atmosphere out there for a while. And I'm personally, I wouldn't always be able to distinguish between is this now a CIA operated, you know, group fight or is this normal normal group dynamics. People don't like each other, people having disputes, people having different ideas and how to do things and so on. So I would suggest to take this kind of claim with a with a grain of salt, not every dispute among a group has been created by the CIA. Also, I'm very generous on bashing them. However, they also talked that at some point, they changed the whole context of Julian and Wicked X from a target of collection to target of disruption. Well, for sure, some things happened there. But this is not what I can go into detail as if I know no detailed report on it. And however, the project I talked about that Julian would get legally out of the embassy as a member of Ecuadorian diplomatic staff is coming together in a very is like the most critical time frame also according to the article. And that we were able with the we were going through with the lawyers, the lock files of the embassy security service, the videos and so on. So we have been able to identify the time frame. And this the time frame is the 16th of December 2017 until the 26th. This is the most critical time frame because around the 16th he was officially not only declared a diplomat. There was a publication in the Ecuadorian like legal got set or what it's called so like the legal publication in Ecuador to have him declared. He had around the 21st the head of the Ecuadorian intelligence visiting him. So that means he also had the diplomatic passport. It was fully formally done. There was a discussion of the process and this meeting on the 21st. I had mentioned it in my talk last year was the most high priority conversation that ever happened in the embassy. At least as far as we know from the witnesses of the security service who later revealed to the court that they had been instructed on behalf of the CIA to do other things than to protect the embassy but to spy on Julian. So this meeting on the 21st was extremely important to the Americans. And we do know roughly that the whole story ended through various means but mainly to pressure on the Ecuadorian government in Quito in Ecuador around the 26th when they actually called the plan off. Because the Americans knew about every detail including how he would get out of the embassy in what type of car and so on. And they also then at some point denounced his diplomatic status after pressure from the United States government. In this timeframe I made here a little bit of an event matrix which is completely incomplete. I have to say there's many things missing for legal for other reasons. You know some things are just too wild. The US government for example would never break into European law office. That's bullshit. That's conspiracy stuff. They don't do these things. They of course comply with the law. However we have some events that are funny and fit well into our picture. For example that after on the Saturday the lawyers from Spain and England were sitting together with Julian. Like two days later in preparation of that meeting on the 21st came the fire protection service into the embassy. And those who have seen my talk last year know that one of the fire extinguishers played in the meeting room the main role for holding a buck. However I'm coming to that. Then we have this observation that every day in this timeframe there was a silver gray Ford car with sometimes two sometimes three sometimes more people sitting outside the embassy. Seeming obviously to wait for instructions something to happen. I'm coming to that. And we have other things going on at that time frame that kind of fit in the end of frame. So on the I selected three events to talk about them a few minutes. The first is this fire extinguisher. Here you see it. And in the on the right picture you see this black bottom of the fire extinguisher. That's where they had a magnetic little box with an audio microphone. I mean audio buck in it that seemed to have not only recorded but also transmit the conversations in life to the American intelligence outside. Finally this on the 18th comes a company not even from London the Iceland fire protection limited a guy and goes into all the rooms in the embassy to check the fire extinguishers. Now according to the lawyers there had been intensive discussions with the employees and David Morales the owner of UC global the company that was originally hired to protect the embassy is known to have talked to his people and emailed them. Mentioning that the Americans want all the other rooms at some point to be booked and want access to the fire extinguishers. We don't know exactly what happened in that discussion to the last detail but we know that on the 18th came this British company. And this is a little bit cross and I think there will be many other embassies of other countries who will be interested to check if they don't are maybe serviced by the same company. Now the other nice event that I selected is the night from the 23rd to the 24th so the very morning early morning hours on the 24th so December morning Christmas morning so to say. Where you have the three guys sitting in the car and on the backseat on the right side someone reads the briefing notes. I will show you the hopes don't tell me this hopefully works. Okay the video doesn't work. I'm sorry I can't show you the video today maybe courtesy of the CIA. However so the guy in the backseat browsers through the briefing notes and we have been able to at least read part of what they have been what this briefing notes say. It says this page that we have been able to read mostly was in the event of loss of camera coverage. So there was a process to be established when the surveillance cameras and the embassy wouldn't deliver pictures anymore and the guys outside sitting partly according to the article the British police guys was guns. And this year eight people maybe without guns would be ready to jump into the scene a crash diplomatic car shoot into tires of cars that would try to bring Julian away and so on. In the case he would he would walk out and so there's a few keywords here that I just want to emphasize in the event of loss of camera coverage then there's talking about and something called GS seven that might be code word for CIA or something different. I mean he is clearly the Metropolitan Police. That's a normal acronym in England, and they talk about the context of the operation kudo. So we looked up the word kudo kudo is something saying roughly like friendship. So we have to assume this was a joint British American operation and that's exactly what the Yahoo article describes. However, what it does not describe is the legal implication because this could well be one of the most or best well documented breaches of the Vienna Convention is basically saying that the premises of the mission shall be in in voile inviolable, which is normally means that you shall not bug you shall not, you know, put surveillance devices, cameras in cameras or whatever you shall not hack into the camera surveillance system often embassy as to host state and so on. So that intelligence to it and that the CIA was doing it in the case of the equivalent embassy is already part of a Spanish lawsuit. However, the dimension is a little bit different as the British police seems to have access have had access to that video surveillance and that is potentially legally a different thing that will be subject to some legal steps going on in the next weeks and months. The third event I selected more for relaxation for relaxation issues is on the last day. You see here to police officers carrying an astonishing amount of eight cups of coffee coffee for relatively small police car. That gives you an idea what was going on there the British police being prepared to see at the site. The conference room is about in the area where the where the trash bin on the left side is. So giving you an idea of how intense the British police was also in the scene outside. So what is currently happening with this and a lot of other material is checking the violations of the Vienna Convention. Then pausing together many of the events and observing patterns and trying to see those patterns at other places as we of course still do not know the full scope of the operations of CIA and other intelligence agencies against WikiLeaks. This is just the tip of the iceberg what happened in London. But also to see where other journals where other citizens where other governments organizations whatever where maybe targeted with same or similar ways and methods. So with this brings me to the second part of my little talk. The question what needs to be done. So and I try to first invite you to a little reflection because as some of you might know during a science presented the WikiLeaks project in the CCC Congress end of 2009 if I recall correct he made another talk in 2010. This was very much a project of the hacker community and it was highly welcomed at the time. Because it was like combining the idea of freedom of information which had always been in sharing information which had always been the spirit of the hacker scene with those of journalists and democratic. Yeah think tanks to ensure that we would have actually informed society not this this very weird concept of an information society which which does not really say anything between the relationship between information and society. But an informed society is a clear picture I think. And therefore the better wording. So the other question is of course is what what what does this whole thing this what we have been reading in the article and what we're now a step by step here revealing and starting to understand. What does it tell us about the United States governments. Yeah prosecution at the U.J. Pompeo the CIA all these people. How compatible are they really to decide to society that is based on an informed electorate like the people making decisions based on knowledge. And voting based on knowing what is going on and that's slightly disturbing I think what we what this thought brings us to. So here's my little ideas and then I will just come with some questions to the audience. So yeah what can we do and what what maybe should we do this is here just some ideas of mine. Well we could of course hope that the United States the people of the United States the government of the United States. Would understand the core democratic well it attacks here when going against assigned WikiLeaks and so on. So in theory we should we could hope that the self healing or the self understanding mechanisms of the United States society will stop this madness. Because they will see hey wait a moment this is our constitutional first amendment that we are taking here indirectly. And if we don't have like the publishers right the journalists and publishers right to inform the public then we have nothing. Well the second obviously a level would be to dissolve the CIA. I mean Kennedy had this idea before Shadrow it in the wind and so on. But I don't know how at least this show will continue with that budget with the information operations with the influence operations. Where actually where the dog is just a tiny little aspect of it because the question is how should a democratic government work as long as there is an intelligence agency that has all the knowledge about every person involved in all the little compromise boxes and the aspects of how to nudge and how to influence and how to manipulate and so on. Well and then the third aspect outside the United States here in Europe is of course the question of how can we immunize those people entities government organizations and so on where it still seems possible to understand that this is the journalism and the right to inform the public by making also information and material public that governments corporations or whoever would like to keep secret but if that documents are playing a role in informing the public in the public interest then it must be allowed to make it public and that was what's called the fourth stage or the right of the press to inform the public. Yeah how can we do that that's of course more a question. Here's my list of questions that I will want to address to the audience we should have 20 minutes and maybe a few seconds for discussion of this. So guys how do we get your message out of jail ladies and gentlemen how do we do it. How do we stop the communalization of journalism and those who ensure access to information in the public is just in order to achieve an informed society. That's our duty I fear. How do we ensure a value driven community. So as everybody knows the CCC had always different fractions of political and the technical fractions. Then came at some point the party the event and the hedonism aspects all together and we had a great fun time but I'm not sure that we also took care of ensuring that we are value driven community all the way. I mean when we look at the CIA and the NSA methods there's obviously some kind of atmosphere between those who work in the IT security industry and those who maybe then take offers from the intelligence community. And that's not the spirit of the hacker ethics and that's not the spirit of the CCC and that's not the spirit of an informed society that's people with money who instrumentalize technology people and you don't have to like look at the CIA as the most crassist maybe entity. It starts with the so called open technology fund. I mean we had various years the ability to observe how the Tor project had its issues between the two worlds of the US government having this and that ideas and our community having other ideas of how anonymization works. And I'm not sure we can say that our values have been preserved and we have ensured that the OTF finance projects do not serve just some funny governmental interest and when it was relabeled partly from internet freedom to circumvention measures that I think gave already some ideas on what could go wrong if yeah governments start to fund projects of the so called hackers. Yeah, so this is my question to you guys. How do we get him out? How do we ensure our society stays intact and democratic and how do we as a scene avoid to be corrupted by governmental money and funny interests. And I hope the moderation cannot take over and provide some answers from the audience. All right. Thank you very much Andy for your talk. Let's see how this will work. Thank you also for your questions to the audience. I mean time to fix this video and make it this one minute 23 seconds video so that I can show it but maybe you can start to take the questions. Sure. Yeah. And yes. So let's let's say to the audience please put your possible answers to these questions in the chat. I will I will follow them as good as I can and so that we can have a lively discussion. I know it might be a bit limited because in the Presence Congress it would be easier to to interact with with each other. And but yeah let's let's let's see that. And but first of all maybe Andy if if you have the capacity for a question from the interwebs. Then the question would be how did you obtain the pictures and camera footage from the embassy. Well this has to do with the legal analysis of this material. I'm myself here by the way you could switch on the video if you wanted. Well I'm myself accusing the Spanish company to have spied on me and other colleagues. And so I'm part of that legal proceedings as such. I'm also helping the lawyers to obtain the technical evidence. There was a shitload of digital evidence confiscated that needed forensic examination and so on. So this is material accessible to those who have been affected by the illegal activities performed by UC Global and others. All right. There is also the question of are there pictures of the Ford or the people inside it. But I think that's pretty much part of the video you have just shown. Is it. I'm sorry. I don't see what is being broadcasted. Do you have access to my sliding to the streaming laptop. Okay. Yeah. Yes. So this is the full video where you when you see the guys reading the briefing notes on the backseat. We have been able to zoom in a little bit and so on. And the question was where did you get that from. But I think you already answered that in the previous question. Because it's no answer to my question. What should we shall do guys. Yeah. So we have one line of feedback for example that how to get Julian Assange out of jail. What one proposal is ask our foreign minister give Julian German citizenship. Make it a chef's. So part of the part of the chancellor. That's what it means in every in every German activities. Question mark. Would that work. It's been worked on. I mean the new we have a new foreign minister who's a woman from the Green Party. And she seems to be very much a fan of United States German relationships. I'm not sure how much she sees about lack of values that the US government represents watching the history of the US Constitution and so on. But I'm sure there's a lot of work to be done there and the Green Party used to be also interested in the society and stand for human rights and so on. So I would say yes. It's definitely there's a path to go. All right. There's also a question. Are you so you personally still under surveillance. Do you know. Well I have taken some legal and technical measures and the German authorities have some evidence I provided to them still in their analytical labs and so on. It's a little bit unrealistic to assume that the Americans would not continue watching those who surrounded a certain big leagues and as a member of the Valhalla Foundation and we finance the we finance many of the publications and things or aspects of the publication. So it would be unlikely that you lost interest. At least for the moment they seem to behave a little bit more especially after the Yahoo article. I think it became very obvious also to the German authorities what was going on. So the article was helpful. It's just that some aspects of the article are just poor rubbish and disinformation that try to smoothen it up a little bit. All right. May I ask you to maybe just also bring up again the slides with your questions. So we will have a second. I think this will help to spark a bit of discussion also. Good point. All right. Thank you. And another answer how to how to get them out of jail is keep talking about Julian Assange and the public attend vigils. I don't know what that means actually. Organ or articles write comments called the Department of Justice talk to politicians communicate. So this is this is one answer like like keep keep keep keep the word out. Yeah. I mean let me let me briefly try to interact with whoever gave that suggestion. I think it's well known that in in Germany in France and some countries there was quite some campaigns going on in the last months quite some people on the street acting for Julian and series of events and so on. Also a little bit in England but England seems to be a very tough under two aspects. The one is that they don't have that of a self understanding of a country with a constitution guaranteeing freedom of rights. The United Kingdom does not have a constitution and it doesn't have what's called constitutional rights. The United States have similar statements but they are not as clearly defined as a value system of a democratic society. So most British people if you ask them to do something for freedom of press they're like the press these assholes why should I do something for them. It's it's it's all very complicated and a bit polarized over there. And the other aspect is that the UK government to say bluntly there's quite some people who say that the UK government does what the US government says. And in this case there is no way according to that interpretation that you can avoid the UK government handing Julian over to the Americans. So the problem needs to be addressed in the US and Germany and other European countries have a different history obviously and I'm at least sure that if Julian would be in Germany I'm not sure he would be not having any issues but there would be a different discussion. However the the question how the so-called old Europe or the continental Europe that is now even more ignored after beer exit from the Brits can have any influence here in England I would say forget it. On the grass it's more complicated but for the moment it seems that similar to what happened to Julian and Wikileaks in our own community that there was quite a time frame when the reputation the character assassination had taken so much that actually he was seen as a persona non grata more or less the United States political atmosphere is even more complicated and more polarized between left right and nuts and whatever that it seems a very tricky task to bring some sense into that discussion as long as you have the military intelligence apparatus and Hillary Clinton saying like hang him on the highest trees. So there seem to be quite and that's also mentioned in the Yahoo article a revenge aspect of the United States legal system here not only Pompeo that want to yeah basically kill Julian as a symbol that no one should ever try to reveal the dirty laundry of the United States. So yeah that's a bit tricky and we will need more ideas and how to also initiate a better discussion in the United States maybe. Related to that another answer we got was for example how to how to stop the criminalization of journalism and maybe also other question of these questions is vote for the right people and well it's probably can help for some things and what comes to my mind is I mean indeed in this and also other prosecutions and trials very often there's some ancient laws involved on those grounds people get prosecuted right isn't that for Julian there is there is the intelligence act or what's the name of the S. Bill Nash act so basically what the US prosecution does is this is a secret grand jury that might have even more investigations running against Julian and we can extend that what has been put into the expedition inquiry to the UK at this point however that one already accuses him to violating the espionage act not declaring him having spied for another country but finally having revealed secrets to the American public and to the of course public of other countries that's what they call espionage that's a little bit ridiculous and it is however even more of a concern watching the fact that a US journalist would be able to claim the protection of the First Amendment the right of freedom of speech and the right of publishers and journalists to and so on however they deny that because he's not a US citizen so the US partially exports their laws and says well he violated against this American law called the espionage act but they do not grant him the protection of the US legal system and that is to call it hypocrisy is I'm sorry is too nice this is just really fucked up okay shouldn't we shouldn't we try to get rid of maybe like the espionage act or at least I'm all for it dissolve the CIA get rid of the espionage act I'm all for it I just fear that at least part of our community will have to become I don't know lawyers lobbyist maybe we need to look for better communications with the US hacker scene and see if they can kindly get into political consciousness mode and get for a moment distracted from technology developments into society developments and see what can we done to ensure that also in the future we have the right as a citizen to know what's happening in our name by governments and so on mm-hmm all right yeah because for example I I I I remember a couple of years ago I don't know whether it was in the 2013 the year of Snowden or later where we also had a talk at Congress about the German post surveillance for example where back in these I think it was the 70s where where we had the NATO troop statute got got into play but there was a verbal note from the from the from the German government who told the allies well we will be part of the NATO troop statute now but don't don't be afraid you will be able to have the powers as before under allied law you could say and only after this the information the investigative journalism of I think it was a historic historicion exactly mr. Fosher pot only after that came out the government had to say okay well we we want to stop this and now this at least officially is over well I mean it's not really over Germany is still member of the NATO and this regulation is still in place and just to have it said I mean the four seven revelations if you look at the publications with leaks you will see the modules the CIA had developed to make a software atroian a malware whatever kind of manipulation so fair look like it was coming from a specific country or time zone so to make malware or attacks on it is to make them look like they come from Russia China Iran you name it most Korea issued list as well and this is the scenario we're looking at already if you if you look at the news what happened the last year is we had all these attacks it was Russia it was China it was Iran it was North Korea most probably have forgotten some other people who it was blamed on but the discussion that the CIA would be having the tools to make attribution misleading to a country so what's called a false flag operation in military terms is creating a scenario where exactly we as a NATO member are now looking into military like conflicts again because the media environment has been so poisoned with guys and those guys hacking our IT our parliament our you name it this worries me it worries me that we as a technical community have not spent more attention to avoid that the media environment was able to like create again just paintings of enemies and create an atmosphere where war between countries seems possible again and that's something that's deeply disturbing to me and I think this is something we have to work on more as a community also to ensure that technical knowledge is not abused for like yeah political games by withholding information what I should mention is as we are only having a two minutes left here something I did agree to be available for a little discussion in the whistleblower tent that somewhere in that virtual world and the audience will hopefully find it all right so whatever it's called so the once again what's the name of the of the of the and the whistleblower tent of whistleblower village okay all right so go out to do whistleblower tent so after after this talk and so maybe one last question is it possible to sue the UK government for their treatment of Assange before the European Court of Human Rights it's a little complicated what's happening right now is I might I think other talks have covering it is that Julian tries to avoid his expedition and there is specific aspects of this which he might at some point be able to address at the European Court of Human Rights that in theory could stop his extradition but only if a specific criteria are met and so on how much now the UK government will listen to it after the beer exit and so on is due to political atmospheric reasons that's all a little tricky the European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU agreement so it doesn't matter that the UK stepped out of the EU but it is still an instrument of Europe and not of the friendship between the United States and Great Britain so the atmosphere of the British government does not suggest at this moment to be overly sensitive to anything coming from continental Europe to say it carefully and that's pretty bad all right so yeah thank you Andy for your for your talk for everyone who's interested into for a discussion with you please go over to the whistleblower talk on this channel at Kauston stage the next talk will be reproducible building network infrastructure by Astro which will start at 9 30 p.m. so tune in for the next Kauston talk as well and that's it for now thank you