 People of the internet welcome to modern-day debate tonight. We are debating is there a God and we are starting right now I am Kaz host of the atheist edge tonight We are we have Ozzie and talks versus Kyle a each person is going to get 10 minutes for their opening statement and then 40 minutes for the Q and open discussion and then 30 minute Q&A and We will begin with Kyle at his first word Kyle the floor is all yours all right, I'm really excited to be here and so For those of you who don't know I guess this is my very first time being here So most of you won't know me very well yet, but I'll try and fix that for you So I am actually a priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Some people call us Mormons, but we don't that's kind of a nickname We don't really like that nickname because we really like to emphasize Jesus Christ in the name of the church but Anyways, I'm a priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've been a priest since I turned 16 Yeah, right when I turned 16, that's Yeah, went and got ordained and after that I went and I I did seminary and I graduated seminary and 2006 after two after that I went on I did a full-time two-year mission Spanish speaking out in East LA and after that I Went home and got married went to college I attended Dixie State University got my bachelor's degree in science there and simultaneously I graduated the St. George Institute of Religion, which was right next door to that and So yeah, I've got a lot of experience doing this stuff I'm not trying to tell you all this stuff trying to appeal to some kind of genetic fallacy or anything like that I just wanted to emphasize that because this is my life This is what I really enjoy talking to talking about and finding people who are interested in talking about it. Yeah I'm really excited to be here. So What I was gonna say here is When it comes to atheism if you want to say that there is so in order to be an atheist That is saying there is no God and I hope I'm not strawmanning anyone but was saying that but that's my understanding of atheism is Atheism is to say that there is no God and so if you want to say that there is no God My first expectation is first you have to define this God that you don't believe in Okay, define this God that you don't believe in say what expectations you have of this God that you don't believe in and explain where those expectations came from now As I mentioned I'm part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints We consider we consider ourselves to be Christian though. There's some debate about that because a lot of people out there Oh, you guys aren't Christian because we are not Trinitarian. We don't believe in a Trinity We believe in a Godhead that Jesus Christ God the Father and the Son the Holy Ghost They're all three distinct individuals and not one and so Anyways, I was gonna say when it comes to believing in God I get my Definition from the Bible. I'm gonna go turn to the Bible for defining God and Some of the really powerful scriptures that really stand out to me I I've got John chapter 10 verses 30 to 38 Okay, and it says I and my father are one Then the and so this is Jesus speaking and he told them that I and my father are one Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him Jesus Jesus answered them many good works have I showed you for my father from my father For which of those works do you stone me? the Jews answered him saying the Jews answered him saying for a good work We stone the not but for blasphemy and Because that because that thou being a man make us thyself God Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law? I said ye are gods If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came and the scripture cannot be broken Okay, so Jesus is saying ye are gods speaking to all them. You can't Stone me for calling myself a God because that's what it says about all of you right here in the scriptures And so right here. He's actually quoting another book here in the book of Psalms. Okay, this is Psalms chapter 82 verse 6 says I Have said ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high Okay Ye are gods all of you and and or ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high and I think another scripture here in the book of Acts and these are all Straight from the King James Bible here. Okay. This is acts. Okay chapter 17 verse 29 and and It says For as much then as ye are the offspring of God We ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver or stone Graven by art and man's device Okay, they're right there. It's saying we are the offspring of God so Those are some really significant passages there for me It says it and when it comes to defining things. Okay, so It's saying two things. Okay, number one Okay, it says a whole lot about us. It's calling us Okay, the children of God the offspring of God. Okay, we are gods is what it's saying Okay, number two it also says all a whole lot about our Heavenly Father Yeah, so I Yeah, if you want to say that there is no God and we are defined as gods Then you're gonna have to say that we do not exist and that's that's my my whole point right there Okay, that you're opening thank you Kyle appreciate it and we will go ahead and kick it over to Ozzie and for his opening statement Ozzie and the floor is all yours at your first word. I will start your timer Thank you Caz for having me back on modern-day debates to discuss why I believe God does not exist I'm here today as someone who doesn't believe in a God or gods and naturalist who likes to use reason and evidence not believing in God Or God's is the most thoughtful a logical choice based on all the evidence we have Everything that exists is part of the natural world and there is nothing supernatural or divine beyond what we can understand through the natural world I personally trust science is the best way to understand the world around us. I Know certain basic things like that I exist and not as a God That the world outside of me exists and that things happen because of causes These basic beliefs are important for understanding the world allows me to understand that my knowledge can always change and improve This idea of being open to change is what allows me to trust and use science as best way to understand the world around us so far all Explanations for all causes have been demonstrated to be natural and physical in origin and nothing has been demonstrated to be a supernatural Origins, so I'm I am justified in looking for natural explanations for everything until the supernatural can even be demonstrated as true So paraphrasing here if something can't be proven with evidence it can be ignored without evidence The people who make claims like the existence of a God have to prove it When we look at the evidence we have or the lack of Evidence in the case of a God is just not enough. This isn't like a claim that someone has a dog named Cleveland I don't need any further evidence for Cleveland because people and dogs exist I trust that most people are honest about their dog Things like religious books personal feelings and philosophers ideas don't give us solid proof that a God exists Has anyone actually seen a God? Well, I think you would say yes because you believe I am a God Also, the idea of a God is often based on guesses and things that can't be proven to be true instead of good reasoning The idea of a God is all-powerful all-knowing and always good doesn't make sense to me with all the evil and suffering in the world But when we think about the positive things that come from believing a God Such as a community and a promise of eternal life and Compare it to the lack of evidence and bad reasoning for God You find that there's no good reason to believe that a God exists or that I am a Person is justified in believing that God does not exist if all the available evidence for God's existence is inadequate And if God does exist there should be strong evidence to prove it and despite many attempts No strong evidence has been found and the area where evidence would appear if there were any has been examined and There are no acceptable beneficial reasons to believe that God exists So let me explain what I mean by that The evidence presented to support the existence of God is not convincing So using the Bible as evidence to claim that I am God and I'm the offspring of God in some way is not convincing Evidence to me because you have to demonstrate to me that the Bible is true in a source of knowledge in the first place Scientific discoveries and theories such as the Big Bang and evolution Evolution provide natural explanations for the origins of workings of the universe and there is no scientific evidence That points to the existence of a higher power If God does exist there should be strong evidence to prove it This is a basic principle of reason if something exists there should be evidence of his existence in the case of God as an all-powerful All-knowing and all-good entity there should be ample evidence for his existence if it really existed Despite many attempts no strong evidence has been found Throughout history many philosophers and theologians have attempted to provide evidence for the existence of God But they've not been successful in providing evidence that is adequate to support the view that God exists Scientists and researchers have looked into the natural world and we found lots of explanations such as the Big Bang and Evolution as explanations for how we got to where we are today There is no good reason to believe in God's existence the idea of God may provide comfort to some people But it's not sufficient reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence Additionally, believe in God can leave to harmful practices and discrimination And it's not an official belief to hold and I'm not seeing that's the case for all believers and all types of God So basically my argument would be the evidence is not for the Bible is not evidence to me If you want to say that humans are defined as God I would just say okay humans exist Trivially true, but to me that's not what a God is So and that's my opening statement All right. Thank you so much ASEAN and we will go ahead and kick it into the open discussion But before we do that I just want to remind everybody that if it's your first time at modern-day debate that we want you to feel welcome no matter What walk of life you're from and I want you to know that If you have a question or comment for once nights debaters fire into the old live chat and tag me at modern-day debate Super chats will go to the top of the list all we ask that you keep it civil and attack the argument and not the person as insults will not be read and our guests are linked to the description below whether you're listening on YouTube or via the podcast So if you like what you're hearing Please go ahead and click those links as soon as you can and hit the subscribe button because we have plenty more debates coming Your way that you don't want to miss including Tomorrow at 8 p.m. We have Stuart connectly versus Matt Dilla Humpty So you don't want to miss that click that subscribe button ASAP and I just want to remind everybody that I'll be having a After show after the channel after the debate is over So if you like what you heard you want to continue the conversation Then please click that link and join me after the show so after that we will go ahead and kick into the open discussion gentlemen 40 minutes is on the clock at your first word Okay, so You said that there is no evidence for a God. That was one of your major claims right there, right? So Yeah, I just There's no what? No convincing evidence no convincing evidence. Okay, so that's a little bit different than saying there is no evidence at all It's you know because yeah my first question there for you would be like what what do you define evidence as? So I like to go with the dictionary I always go to dictionary calm when it comes to defining evidence Which would be like an indication or sign of something in an example that they use is a fever so my my daughter's head felt warm and That is a sign or indication that she might have a fever now Do we know for sure that she has a fever or not just by feeling her head? Well, no my hands might be cold and so her head might just feel warm but it is still evidence that she might have a fever and so that It's kind of Just something to suggest That something might be the case that would qualify as evidence your degree with that Yeah, I think personal testimonies evidence, but I Wade the type of evidence it is and if it's sufficient for me to believe in it Like I gave an example of somebody's dog named Cleveland I'm gonna believe that because dogs and people exist and somebody can name their dog Cleveland So it's not something I would be skeptical of or doubting But when you make some type of claim of some supernatural being I don't know if God in this case to you is some type of Supernatural being or not I'd be interested to hear what type of your Godhead is like if there's any qualities of the Godhead, but There's a lot of qualities to it. And so the guy has more of a team There's a Hebrew word and the and the scriptures Elohim Which is plural okay? God's plural and that starts off with Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 if I recall correctly it first does that and that's right I really enjoy studying Hebrew and learning all that Elohim yeah, and so it also uses plural words like us and we Yeah, man. God created man in our image. Okay, and our image. It's our is kind of a Or in his image and so there's us and we there's little indications like that in just chapter 1 I'm familiar with Elohim Traditionally they use it as a singular word, but I know it could mean a plural right to Based on some pagan beliefs right at the time, but what what what would be the plural then what what's the more than one? If it's not the Trinity, what are these other gods make up the God? Well, we have our heavenly father God our heavenly father and Jesus Christ his son and then there's also the Holy Ghost and so those are three individual beings who are who are together and like Like on the football team, I guess you could say that it's one team Does that make sense? It's not it's not one Three-headed being I guess you could say so it's God like a material being like the father We believe that God has a body of flesh and bones as tangible has tangible as man's the son also But the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bones but is as As a spirit he's he's a spirit But kind of first and foremost we are the offspring of God So as I said that says so much about him as it does up as much about him as it does about us And so, you know, we have body and flesh and bones Jesus has body and flesh and bones and that's also gonna say, you know a parent is gonna have a body of flesh and bones And so, you know, we don't look at a giraffe and expect it to give birth to baby rhinoceros is it's just No, you don't expect that at all. And so this is kind of what offspring means And so as I said, you want to say that there is no God, you know, and we're all defined as gods right here from the Bible Then you're gonna have to be arguing that we don't exist. Well, I don't believe the Bible is true I don't believe it's a source of knowledge. You don't have to I'm not I'm not trying to use the Bible to say The Bible says so therefore you should therefore you have to believe it. People exist. I believe people exist I believe that people have flesh and blood exists. So The God you're describing the Godhead you're describing is is physically possible I would grant that that type of God is possible and Jesus I believe was a historical figure I don't necessarily believe all the stories. We believe that man exists. Okay, we believe that man exists We can agree with that. I but I don't believe in any type of holy spirit that that's a claim that I Have no reference point to I have no experience of there's no Evidence for it's and when I talk about evidence, I'm looking for something we can make enough we have an observation and It somehow interacts with the physical world and we can do some type of test to do predictions to see if this holy spirit exists So that to me would be some evidence to show that the holy spirit exists And I haven't seen any type of evidence to show me that the holy spirit exists now man exists I also would like to get in like what does it mean to be the father what he did? Like what the claims are for the father did like did he create Earth or the universe? Well, I think it's kind of one of the the cool things is as we look around Okay, I've got two hands and I make things every day, you know I make videos and I I do you know, I work with clay I do painting. I'm a painter and so I I do portrait paintings and so yeah And you know, I I don't know very many people out there You'd have to like be in a coma or something to say you're not creating something But or even brain dad at that point that to not be a crater on my point is that you know mankind where we are made To be creators that we're all creators. We're all like the entire United States, you know, every country is It's landscaped by men continually, you know, we want to try and control every little thing we can get our hands on and so Yeah, we're all to me to me when I use The word creation in these conversations typically I mean created from like nothing, but I believe like I just clarify I do if we're using the context of creating from something I'm okay with that using in that context. So is that the context you're using it? So ratio X materia is that sort of the You're familiar with that creation out of material Is that what you're talking about? I normally hear it like creation X Nilo From nothing creation from nothing and that's not really a belief I go with I don't believe that God created everything from nothing because if God created everything from nothing Then that shows me a god at one time. Okay, just think about for a moment Okay, god being surrounded by absolutely nothing Doing absolutely nothing for an infinite amount of time going backwards. Okay, that is not a god I believe in for a second. Okay Yeah, if god was surrounded by nothing doing nothing for an infinite amount of time going backwards Yeah, that that sounds like a dead god to me But then I think you run into a contingency problem. It seems like this material That exists. Um, the god is contingent on material on time Existing so it's material on time that would For god to exist. Is that your claim? Uh Well, my claim is that god exists So if you're trying I'm kind of a little confused at the way you're saying that it's looks like It sounds like you're talking about a god that doesn't exist that suddenly poofed into existence No No, so the is god eternal with with uh With material That's that's what I believe I believe that Yeah, I believe in a god. Okay, or actually it's kind of a system, I guess you could say a system because um Yeah, I keep putting the bible to you because I love to emphasize just how much how rich the bible is I will never be convinced of the bible. Yeah, I I get you I get you but i'm more interesting to find out like what this Kind of where i'm coming from and what my beliefs are yeah and kind of this definition of god and Uh, yeah, there's so much more I can get into this and it's kind of hard to kind of contain it all It's such a short time frame, uh, but sure I'm still very curious. So if god is Say eternal the god head or I guess the god the father's eternal god the son is not We believe we are okay. We are all gods. Okay. We are all gods all eternal We are all eternal is is a really rich, uh, interesting Belief that comes right here from the bible and so I actually wrote it down Can be clarity. Do you mean eternally? We've existed for all time and we will exist for all. Is that what you mean by eternal? Just we're on the same page Uh, that's my understanding of eternal. Yes, so yeah my full understanding of eternal And there is a certain kind of progression that takes place in that eternity And we believe in eternal progression and so There's a really powerful scripture in the book of john John chapter 5 verse 19 And it and jesus said the son could do nothing of himself But they'd only do it that what you see it the father do it. Okay. That's john chapter 5 verse 19 Okay, what did jesus do? He came to earth. He was born. He died was resurrected How could he do any of that stuff if it's something he hasn't seen before it's john 5 19 So that tells us right there so much about his father and kind of who he is so Heavenly father was a person who came to a earth. I'm not saying it was like Our world as we know it now. I think there's a lot more lands out there that have yet to be explored and uh, and so he came from somewhere else, but he Lived a life like us and he's on this Uh, you know, he was a kid at one time. Does that make sense? He was like us At was it adam or because I've heard like it was adam or michael or something No, I don't believe I don't believe heavenly father was adam. He was A father to us all in a way And yeah, I believe adam is now living in heaven. So that's uh kind of that But I don't believe he is kind of The heavenly father that we prayed to if that makes sense and so, uh So we're all eternal and material so every like all energy and matter and all All living humans have always existed and will always exist. There was no like beginning Moment. There is no beginning. There is no end. There's that that's a hymn actually Yeah, we go to church for you. Yeah, there is no beginning. Yeah and so you understand most people have a problem with eternal like um infinite past right and infinite future I'm not necessarily as concerned about that. I I don't I think I can't conceptualize it, but I don't necessarily think it's fault Yeah, and I think that was kind of a really interesting thing because I've I've listened to a lot of these atheist and and theist debates and I hear uh We always the the theist we always like to say, oh, well, you know all of creation indicates that There is you know a design equals a designer and I'm sure you've heard that before It's kind of hard to not hear that that argument before and so one uh atheist said oh, well, doesn't that mean that God would need a designer because yeah, we can't you know if god is You know complicated and complex and has all these things, you know, he's way more significant than You know any kind of thing that we see here on earth, right? And so wouldn't that indicate he needs it? I'm like absolutely I totally believe that our heavenly father Had a father and so it kind of goes on He had a father who had a father who had a father who had a father going on for infinity How's that possible if everybody's eternal? So if I am eternal and I've always existed then how did something else create me? How did something else create you and so um We have uh, we have different components. Okay, and we um kind of think about uh Like I'm thinking about like a teacher at school Okay Who can be kind of like a father like figure to you and help you progress and and learn and grow And so I'm there's a lot of details in it that I don't know the answer to really and I can uh, I can just kind of Uh Tell you my my basic understanding of it. Do you see the con you see the possible contradiction there like you're seeing I meet Yes, yes, I'm created by my father Like yes either it can't be both the I either have to be created by my father Or I have to be eternal. I don't see how I could be okay, so We've got Two concepts or we've got two principles. Okay, I take some Um raw material. Okay, and then I add upon to it. Okay, and so I'm taking things that are already there already existing Okay matter the world it's you know a lot older when we take when we take it from already existing matter And then we add to it. Does that make sense? We build on that What part am I what part am I that you're adding to we have a spirit? Okay, we have our we have our spirit and then we take our spirit and we build a body to To be that spirit vessel I guess you could say so we build a body around that spirit and then help that body grow And so in order and by being a creator this way Okay, that's how why we call him father is because he's kind of creating our world and he's creating You know our our bodies and they'll kind of so much about that and so that's kind of He Is designing us or helped us kind of progress these are father in that way. Does that make sense? I think that's the way I can describe it is kind of accepting it for the sake of argument So I know you really want to get the evidence soul No, that's okay. I just I'm more curious what your belief is right now because okay, but it's to see if there's Um, okay, so let's take that soul. Does that soul that you're describing? Is that if it's material? I like to know if that soul's some type of material or not too But if does it have any intellect does it have any yes? mind before it's formed Before I formed the in the belly. I knew the it's we believe that we existed before we were born Uh, well then you're just seeing they you're just seeing my father created my physical body Yes, you're not me. I wouldn't say I am well, I I believe I am my physical body, but like if I was to do like, uh My foundational beliefs is I am right? I exist like My belief in the physical body sort of based on evidence and stuff like that after that but the concept of me existing is Is uh, I think is irrefutable Well, I don't think that requires somebody to build a body around me to know that I exist And like all the evidence I have show that my body Formed through completely totally natural processes No, there's two gametes come together Fertilize pop out a kid. I've seen a few of those in my life. So but Like I wouldn't even say I created my kid like my Like my child is not a creation to me and my my child like He learned from everybody and he has his own totally unique personality also like and he's can do things that I can't do And he can do things He does things that he didn't necessarily learn from other people too Yeah, like even the idea with Jesus like where he has to he can only do things because he Knew it from his father, but he's eternal. So he already had the intellect before He was created so I did he get the intellect from his father or did did he always eternally have the intellect? Oh, we've all Eternally had some levels of intellect. Okay, but we're kind of progressing. We're growing and we we started before we were born, okay in heaven and Coming to earth and getting a body was a big part of that progress and becoming more like our heavenly father And so it's all part of we call it the plan of salvation Yeah, where we started off That's who built the body for your heavenly father His father did There was no first one. What's her first one? There was no first one. That's not that I'm aware of infinite souls Waiting for infinite future bodies. That's right. That's right Yeah, so I don't know if infinites exist in reality So infinite to me some concept or idea Like it's a really mind-boggling thing. I get it. Yeah, I definitely get the the mind-boggling trying to imagine You know an infinite plane Yeah, it's kind of and infinity is huge. So Yeah, well infinite. It's not a An actual number, right? It's a concept that represents a set Right. It's infinite that there's um No end to the set. Well, you can restrain a set like you create limits for a set and infants They see started zero go infinite positive. So I guess it would be restrained like I believe that right? I believe like my this universe began at a time zero, right? I But I don't think that was the first thing that ever happened. I think there were things that um happened before that I can't explain it Um, but it seems like we have a lot of physical theories that say that something Could um physically cause the universe to exist and that that would be time zero and this universe is going to exist Until heat death. I don't know what that means when it comes to time. You got to ask the physicists but um to me time could be infinite in the future, but not necessarily Infinite for this universe in the past. Um I just I really have this idea grappling around the idea that there could be infinite amount of so have an infinite amount of souls formed into bodies already Um an infinite amount of souls born into bodies. Uh, that's my understanding of it. Yeah There's no beginning and no end. And so that's there's an infinite amount of souls that have already been born and died Yeah Yeah Where like we have all we have is one planet that I I'm aware of with human beings on And where are they? I yeah, I don't know. And so that's kind of where we can get on Going into talking about a lot of different things But I think before we kind of get out there To the things that are a lot harder to really even understand the beginning with Okay, I think it's kind of nice to build off of the the basic building blocks and kind of a little bit after a little bit and that The basic building block of the soul that's eternal That's not just each like has always existed infinite time with intellect the whole time Like where did that We're learning and progressing right now and that's kind of the way we were before and so we are uh, kind of on this long journey to become you know more and more intelligent beings and that's kind of Yeah So god isn't a special position to you. It's not it's just Well, it's very um It's it's very special. Okay. It's a very special thing. And so uh, yeah, like I said, we are all individually Okay, we are all gods But we also have a heavenly father who is also a god and But he's at a much more exalted position than any of us are why Why would you exalt him if you're if he's the same as you if you both have lived eternally and you're both have Eternal souls that have always existed. You've both gone through body. Why would you exalt him? We are like gods in embryo, okay? And so would you say your parent, you know a parent compared to You know a tiny embryo is going to be more knowledgeable and you know mature and you know head of I don't exalt einstein even though I think einstein was smarter than me But I don't I guess well, I guess it depends on how you define exalt and so I I see them You know, I see You know compared to an embryo, you know a full-grown adult Uh as being you know a lot more complicated and complex and knowledgeable about the world as we know it and so many other things Then a tiny embryo and so yeah Someone who has grown Someone who has progressed and grown a lot more than that's kind of my understanding of exalted is someone who has uh Got a much bigger education. So yeah, a parent has a much bigger education than an embryo Does that make sense? um Yeah, we educate we gain knowledge as we get older We have memory like our memory flawed in many ways I'm sure you know like get older you forget stuff, but um um So going back to the embryo thing does so what type of knowledge did I have because I don't seem to recall Any past knowledge I had as a soul Before this Either the veil. Yeah. Yeah, that's part of something this Yeah avail that yeah, we we can't see all that though sometimes the veil can be thinner for some people and uh Yeah, and that's kind of a process to to learn how to to get past the veil and then certain memories can come back to people and Yeah, but it'd be kind of nice to start off with some evidence and kind of build off of that I think that's kind of uh the most what's the evidence for a soul like I rejecters even souls I I've seen no evidence for souls existing okay, so um Well, you say there is no evidence and so I've got to just ask, you know, how are you defining evidence? How are you defining evidence? okay, so physical um Something we can test and measure Not necessarily physical something we can See its interaction on the world and measure it and determine. It's true Okay, something you can test and measure so you're you're looking for like Empirical evidence. You're not just looking for testimonies here No, I I believe testimonies are evidence, but they're not sufficient evidence to convince me That a soul exists and I think um I'm justified in believing that um people's belief in skulls are their own imagination In fantasy about reality the stories they make up about the world and their old head We do that all the time. We make stories. We're storytellers Um, okay, so I'm also not at just one point I don't reject testimonial evidence because I believe all my knowledge is based upon testimony evidence But this the evidence I I accept is the ones that said Here is my claim and here here's the evidence for it and here's how you can test it and confirm it's true for yourself Yeah, yeah Yeah, uh, that's that whole principle right there is what our entire church has founded on That whole testable evidence like if if that if there was no evidence people wouldn't join the church It wouldn't work. You have to believe the church is true to to have evidence that is true No, no people. Yeah people don't know it's true Okay, and so um Yeah, so uh One of the the really powerful scriptures, uh that Actually, uh is the test here. I I'll look at uh We have another book like the bible that we also read from called the book of Mormon And uh in the book of Mormon, we have a prophet named Alma and he talks about a seed Okay, if we plant a seed in the ground, okay, that's a test, right? And uh, we we plant that seed in the ground and we can watch it grow if we Take care of that seed and we nurture that seed and we you know With the seed you can tell a good seed from a bad seed by whether or not it grows a bad seed It's just nothing's gonna happen, right? uh, you you can put all this effort into there you keep doing all this stuff and then Nothing happens. And so you don't keep feeding and taking care of Something that doesn't happen. So uh, in this case, we are looking for something to grow and uh, so Uh, Alma takes kind of a testimony. Okay, uh a witness that it's true and uh, or he calls faith Faith is a seed. Okay, and we can take that faith and we can plant it and we can nurture it And then we can actually watch that grow And that faith will grow and do knowledge and that is a point that it's no longer uh Something that we question because faith is something that Uh, we have a belief in but there's no proof for sure Okay, and and so with the seed we we plant it we can watch it grow and tell all of a sudden We finally know it's a good seed when it produces fruit. Okay, and so that is Where uh faith turns into knowledge. Does that make sense? And so I'm kind of I I'm trying to get your so let me try to reframe that So and I think you're you always agreeing with me when I first said is believe it until you believe it but sort of um until you it's knowledge to you So to me faith requires that I Have some confidence level that the claim is true. Is that how you're using faith? faith is Uh, believing in something that we don't know for sure is true It's so we're kind of taking a leap of faith But that faith can grow until to a point where it's no longer faith And so this is a test a hypothesis, right? So Yeah, you you have to turn the switch on in my head. I can't believe in something without evidence Yes, you're right. Yeah. And so that's where we have to have faith Well, okay, let's let's focus on that that word evidence Okay, efficient evidence. It's efficient evidence. Yeah, it's a test Give me a test. Okay. And so that's what I can have faith Okay, so we have evidence. Okay, and so when we start with a hypothesis we say That's what we we do is we begin by finding a hypothesis and you Um, you need kind of evidence. Do you need evidence to start with a to Yes, you need observations. You make observations facts Right, usually incontrovertible facts And then you try to explain why those facts exist, right? Why why when I drop this does it fall, right? So that's a that would be the observation of fact Right. Why does my arm hold it up? And then you develop a hypothesis to explain Why this is this falls and then you test it that your hypothesis to see if your explanation is true So I want to see the the facts of things falling first Before I could test something if I need to see the facts to prove Your claim is the facts the observations Of your claim before I can test it Okay, so when you when you say evidence, are you meaning proof? Uh, no, I don't I don't need proof. I to test the hypothesis you need facts, right? And then you need a factor proof is kind of the same thing Um, no facts can be observations that don't explainations Okay, well the fact is an observation and that You can't prove facts that exist without any explanation. That's what a proof fact is It's a fact that exists without any explanation For the fact so okay. Well proof. Okay. The fact is some is an observed reality, right? Yeah, okay What's that I see the moon. That's a fact What it is that's the that's the Then we would form a hypothesis about what the moon is But the moon is a fact I can see it Okay, perfect. Yeah, so um, we can We can still form other kinds of hypotheses, right? Uh, without With okay, I'm trying to think mr. Sensible Guy here comes up with hypotheses with uh, that don't Require any kind of observations. I have this discussion Psychological states, right? But even psychological states. I think we have We have the psychological state. We have the feeling then we try to form a hypothesis Why do I feel that certain things are immoral, right? So then we go Do studies we take brain scans we see what type of events Trigger that feeling in the brain for our moral intuition and we've done that those type of studies, right? So we We have this thing. Okay, people feel this way So it's not like a hard physical thing you're seeing you're really describing the feelings people have And then let's see if that's a physical thing and they do brain scans. Oh, yeah It looks like it's a physical thing And then they they try to determine what will cause that physical thing to engage. So it's it's not like a hard fast Um theory, right? It's just a way to explore the Facts the observations and form my hypothesis. Okay, so um, I guess you could say if Someone walks down the street and says hey, I've got ten dollars and if you go talk to this person over here Then uh, you can get ten dollars, right? And oh, okay So I saw that ten dollars and uh And so I've I can Say, okay. Well, I want one of those too So I have a reason to trust this person because he said so now I'm gonna go and test that person's word I'm gonna go do that. I'm gonna go walk down the street I'm gonna talk to this person and see if that person will give me ten dollars just like you did the other guy He's just handed out to another bills, right? And so we're putting this word to a test Okay to the test to see if we can get a similar result and so um when it comes to Like the gospel. Okay. Um, we are able to take test the word. Okay, and so We have examples of different people who have seen different things You know, uh My with my family I've got seven generations who have all been members of the church of jesus christ of lauderday saints and uh, you know, not everyone has Stayed faithful to that some people kind of wander away in different degrees But I still have seven generations who have been members of the church each of my uh ancestors and we don't just believe things because You know our parents said so it's not really a tradition But that's kind of an essential part for all of us is to build our own testimonies To to come and find these things out for ourselves. And so for us That would be prayer prayer is like the number one test that we can do like for all of us the entire church itself Doesn't work without prayer. And so, uh, yeah, and yep What's the prayer mean? Do you have to believe in the believe in the thing to pray like can you just say, oh give Make my son heal So without actually believing in any of that stuff um I think there's it's kind of like Walking up to the guy down the street and asking. Hey, this guy says you're giving out $10 bills Is that true and you know, you don't really know I I don't really know for sure if he's doing that But I but it's not like walking up to the guy because I walk I walk up the guys there I can see him. I can believe that guy exists because I can touch him Taste him if I want to well, you don't know for sure if he's going to give me a $10 bill No, I don't until I ask but that guy's there. He's physical $10 bills are there. They're physical the guys make claims They lie all the time So or their their delusion they didn't actually They actually had the $10 in the pocket, but they actually believed they got it from the guy down the road I know people that suffer from delusions My brother in particular Um, and he could just be wrong about the facts that actually happened. There's actually not a guy there So, how do I know the guys so where do I go to find the guy like where's he at? Where's he standing? Okay, so my dad told me that he said a prayer and asked heavenly father Are you really there? And I he said he got an answer and he felt the spirit he felt something different I'll test it right now Okay, let me test it. Heavenly father. Are you there? All right, so experience any changes All right, so I I don't believe I'm talking to anybody Yeah, that's okay. And so there's kind of more to this whole thing. Okay There's a little bit more to this. Okay So That's a there's a major principle that that we find throughout Throughout the bible, okay And so that that's kind of A really big significant principle that not enough people are really aware of. Okay. You look at things in the bible Okay, and things were like in the old testament. Okay, things were really Dramatic. Okay, if you picked up sticks on sunday, right? Or it wasn't sunday It was on saturday on the Sabbath day. Okay, if you pick up sticks on the Sabbath day And the old testament you could get stoned to death. Okay, the the law was really really strict in those days. Okay, and The priest when he went into the holy of holies. It's part of the tabernacle there They had to tie a rope to the priest's foot because if he went into the holy of holies He could be struck and killed in the holy of holies by god You know the presence of god would kill him and so then they'd have to drag him out with a rope and so Yeah, and so I don't see how this is Helping the point like who i'm talking to. Okay. Well, i'm explaining a really important principle Okay, and that principle is when you know this much you have to do this much Okay, when you know this much you have to do this much But if you know this much and you're doing this much That's when there are drastic consequences. Okay drastic consequences and this Can you give me an analogy when it's related to the topic at hand? Like I know nothing about god Because I don't think god is coherent. I don't think your definition for souls or um eternal like we've lived Infinite period of time. I don't think that's even a coherent concept for me to even like Understand as being true. So How's that related? Like I have no knowledge of god all right, so um with no knowledge of god, okay Our heavenly father knows you as an individual. He knows your heart and he loves you so much and uh, sorry, um But yeah, he loves you so much. I love you too. So i'm god. So you're all right But just listen carefully so okay, um His presence. Okay when he introduces himself to you Okay, that's gonna hold you to a different standard than you are right now Okay, you know nothing right now, which means you are innocent innocent in the eyes of god Okay, like you're not like so with a little tiny baby. Okay, you got a little baby in your arms That doesn't really know anything. You can't hold it accountable if you know if that baby bites someone Are you gonna be mad at it? No not at all. Okay But the moment that baby starts to learn and grow All this and that baby, you know if a full grown adult goes up to someone and bites them Okay Are you gonna hold them accountable in a different way than that little baby? Never I don't hold people accountable. I prevent them from doing harmful acts, but okay I believe people just outgout in their nature regardless of how much they know If the okay if a person goes up to you and bite a full grown adult k Something like that They're gonna be held accountable. I understand the analogy like I don't have any moral culpability because I can't understand the wrongfulness of my actions Because I have no no knowledge of god existing So if god were to hold me accountable for me not knowing that god exists God would be immoral for doing it Yes, yes, exactly exactly And so that's why we see a lot of like the extremism and the old testament is because these people, you know, you You know god parts the red sea people walk through he shows them these amazing miracles Amazing miracles, right all these things happen. Okay, and after that point, okay You guys know i'm here. There's no question about it. And now i'm gonna hold you accountable for that Yeah, but I would say none of us have knowledge of god the way you're defining god is infinite souls in the past because it's a it's a um Non-cognitive concept. I don't know how he can know Something is true that you can't conceive of Like I don't think you're anybody would be wrapped in believing that a god exists Now i'll let you wrap it up. So Yeah, with one minute left. I'll just say okay, the number one answer is prayer Okay, but it has to be sincere prayer sincere prayer Okay, meaningful and being willing to change Okay, I am willing to get to know you better to know if you actually are real And if I if you reveal myself if you reveal yourself to me, I am willing to change Okay, I'm willing to change my life and and measure up to that accountability Okay, there's no going back from that stuff and so because he loves you and sometimes he you know things will happen in your life Say, hey, I'm here Okay, and he he wants all it's all to grow and so he's going to reveal himself in different ways In your life and that's why all of my ancestors They end up coming to the gospel. That's our whole conversion story people get converted because they see miracles God reveals themselves into them when they are asking for it time All right, very nice and neat there. Okay, so we're going to go ahead and kick it into the q&a now I'll put a 30 minutes on the clock And we will go ahead and ask the first question. Just remind everybody that Here you go. Let me stop that clock real quick Just to remind everybody that our guests are linked in the description below if you like what you heard tonight and also Just to remind everybody that Oh, yeah, why is this being a jerk? Okay, got it Um So yeah, our guests are linked in the description below if you like what you heard tonight everybody Um, also want to remind everybody uh that tomorrow Uh, we'll have another debate with matt nillahunty and Stuart connectly So hit the subscribe button and there will be an after show after the q&a So with that, let me go ahead and ask the first question and I'll start the timer The first super chat comes from samarrao for 499. They say kyle divine hiddenness makes no sense to me If god created eyes and brains with which to detect things. Why can't I or any other atheist detect god? I think I addressed that here about his love and mercy towards us and about how When he when we know we're sorry If he knows that we are wanting to rebel against him and and fight against them And if we we don't want to change our lives we like their lives the way they are Then it's a mercy for him to keep us innocent Does that make sense? Okay Got it and we will go ahead and ask the next question then from oflameo for five dollars I say kyle if we are all gods. Are you willing to worship azean as god? There's only one god that I worship and that is my heavenly father Jesus said jesus never once said pray to me. He said pray to my father to our father, which is in heaven the father of us all Got and then from raven crow productions. They're a new member. They say welcome to so much. Oh, I'm sorry They're just a new member. Thank you so much raven crow from Kawani upstate for five dollars. They say assuming everything people claim to have seen god do was true That doesn't prove the same being created existence does it does it? How do you know for sure? That doesn't prove the same being created existence does it? How do you know for sure? Okay, so We when we pray we're able to get answers and we're able to see miracles Okay, miracles happen like all throughout history and that's one of the really cool things about About having so many members of the church is we write journals we write documents and we we write about Our experiences with god in our journals and that's basically What the bible is is a whole bunch of people writing about their experiences with god It's what the bible is and so it's really cool is we can actually make I think you would like, you know, imagine if all of your ancestors wrote about this, but it was in modern day That can happen. It's just a matter of you and and in your ancestors and other people like that writing their experiences down I forgot I think I I can answer it really I I think if they're asking you why God could create everything, but I don't think you're saying god created anything from nothing You're seeing God created us from existing material that has always existed. So Yeah, most people are used to creation from nothing or by the will or word of god not me I'm not sure if I already knew that before I talked to you. So Yeah, all right From chris g for five dollars Do you believe in a regression of gods? What created the first god? Also you are wrong that I am not a god Okay He's welcome to believe that and so yeah, that's just how I define god and that's how the bible defines god So if you want to disagree with that you're more than welcome to but that's just the definition. I go by so And again, I addressed that earlier that there was no beginning There was no first god to to say there was a first god is to you know Yeah, go against what I just said Got it. Okay. The next question coming from chris g also for two dollars. They say azian wins, but Hoodie plus tie gets you a few points. All right Nice Yes From chris g No, sorry from rihanna randall for five canadian. They say kyle Why do you believe what you do not what but why why are you convinced? Why am I convinced I am convinced because I know that my heavenly father answers prayers. He has done so throughout my life I've gone through so much. I didn't mention it before but I became a priest at the age of 16 And then at the age of 17 I joined the army, you know, and I did the army for eight years I did that kind of simultaneously along with the other adventures that I went on and so, uh, yeah I've been through a lot in my life And uh, my heavenly father's been there every step of the way and I have watched him put his hand into my life just Yeah So that's that's it We can have another debate about navy versus army. The navy's better. Just let you know Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not biased on that one. I'm gonna have to side with uh with kyle on that one I've heard I've heard it said that uh, you know, I joined the eight I joined the navy so I could see the world and all I saw was water Yeah, I I accept it I I talked about that how faith and something bigger than yourself can be very moving The people and bring a lot of fulfillment to them, but that doesn't necessarily to me mean it's true I get it. Yeah, uh, yeah, it's something that you haven't experienced yet. So, yeah All right from that's why you're saying Sorry, go ahead. Sorry I was just saying that's why he's that's why he's in the position he's in. Yeah, he hasn't experienced it. So if I've always been an atheist. I I actually had a catholic priest Have a discussion with me as five years old and convinced me that god didn't exist And I've just always been like that. Well, I believe in a living god not a dead god And so that he's just as active in our lives today as he was You know, like ancient ancient times. I think most christians believe in a living god also Just Except for christian atheists, which actually do exist by the way Yeah No, his words never has his words never cease is kind of uh, really important scripture right there His works never end and his words never cease and so when I write my my Experiences down to the miracles that I've seen in my life Uh, that's just as significant if not more significant than anything I read in the bible Because it happened to me. You know what I mean? so Okay from samir far saying for five dollars. I say uh Oz broken car needs engine replace engine car start sick human needs heart transplant Heart arrives late human can't be revived. What's missing? um My brain functions stop there's a part of the brain when It dies your body dies no matter if you replace the heart or not and we have no way to replace that part of the brain to Reengage life like we do with the mechanical car Got from haits stairs for five dollars. They say kyle I'm deeply interested in hearing your testable and reproducible experiments for finding slash realizing slash proving god Okay, well at number one is with prayer is kind of putting yourself in that position saying hey I'm willing to change my life if you'll reveal yourself to me and make it personal I I really recommend just being in a room by yourself. Just yeah and just kneel down and ask just yeah I think that that being willing to change is a really important thing right there I have to believe the change and I can't and I don't I don't okay And I want to be clear that I don't want you to like be expecting to hear like an audible voice or anything like that Like some people have had experiences like that. I've that's not been my experience and so uh, yeah, I just felt like uh Kind of like just having this experience with you like I have just felt This power like come over me Just talking to you many times. I felt the presence of god right here speaking to you and yeah It's telling me just as much right now that's as you know The very first day, you know when I asked hey Are you there is you know this church? Is it what is what they're teaching me the truth? You know, are you you know, uh really there and you know There's all these questions that kind of we can ask about so I can't see the beginning from the end at all But I can get reassurances. I can get reassurances through prayer and kind of developing that relationship And then after that there's a another thing here and that is kind of building a relationship of trust Okay, I know you're there, but does that necessarily mean you're telling me the truth 100 of the time and so there's a uh I think that's kind of how temptation works is temptation is this whole Uh battle between whether or not we really trust the god that is there I I think you want to be right and I think you're just confirming to yourself that your claim is true Because people don't want to be wrong about things that have that much of an impact or influence on their life So I can understand why You'd feel the way you do even if your claim was false okay, and from like uh When you're kind of in a position where it doesn't really Like you've got to make some significant changes in your life, right? Like I said, I served two years on my mission out in east LA And I talked to a lot of people out there who If if they ended up joining the church It meant some really significant changes in their life You know all of a sudden they got to go tell their friends and all all all their friends and family They're uh, they're all catholics And so they've got to tell them that and oh if if I join your church Then I'm ostracized from my family and a lot of people have to give up their entire families to become members of the church It's huge sacrifices and they don't just do that because of nothing They don't just do it because oh well. I read this these scriptures and uh, I'm kind of convinced because Uh, you know abc, but it's actually this answer to a prayer that they've had miracles happen in their life where god Hey, this is a truth I feel empathy and sad for them being rejected by their own family because their families believe That I believe is false So you got catholics that reject a family or they're say somebody wants to become a Mormon to get rejected by their catholic family Somebody decides they're no longer Jehovah witness to get ostracized and rejected by the whole community Treated like they're less than what they were before be all because they just reject that belief system I've seen that happen with Mormon's group too where they they they sort of socially ostracized people who Decide they're not Mormon anymore They don't want to be friends because people don't want to be friends with people Even though it's not necessarily scriptural or yeah, we don't we don't teach that we should do that We should you know, we definitely teach that we should love them It's just part of it because you can have somebody who has complete faith in that in your Religion and they lose their faith for whatever reason it is. Maybe they're convinced as false. Maybe something traumatic happened the um Aren't their belief and then their friends no longer want to be hang hang around them anymore because they don't believe anymore They're talking about well, it's not true because people won't want to be told That they're wrong. They don't want to be friends with somebody who's always going to tell them they're wrong Anyways, I Yeah, go ahead. Well, I understand where you come from. So go ahead Oh, sorry about that. All right. Uh, the next question is from uh, rihanna randall for two dollars canadian. They say Uh for kyle. Have you ever had an unanswered prayer? And what was your reaction? Yeah, yeah, I've had unanswered prayers, you know, I asked things and prayers You know aren't always answered immediately and sometimes I'm kind of left wondering and uh, you know, kind of what is You know, what am I supposed to do here? And you know, uh Yeah, it's part of life as it happens Got it. And then from samir far saying again for five dollars. They say to azian I see moon That's a fact You also see mirages and they are not a fact and you see galaxies that disappeared billions of years ago and that's a fact Um, what okay, so, uh, I think it was That was for azian. Oh, okay, sorry um, yeah, mirages We so we experience mirages, right? So we might see an ocean, right? But the ocean's really not there. So we come out with ways to determine it was is that really an ocean or is it just a Mirage that to me my perception looks like an ocean. I don't I understand the question. I maybe kyle does It's okay Yeah, so go ahead and kyle if you want to react to it, um, I'll just give uh, I'll do the last word No, yeah, i'm good Okay, I just think mirages are facts Got it from rihanna randall for two dollars canadian. They say for kyle. Can you tell a miracle you've experienced? Miracle that I have experienced well, I can't so, uh, there's just one time where I was on my mission. Okay, and Uh, it was really rainy that day. Okay. And so, uh, we were going out teaching lessons. We had a big schedule we'd go from, uh One appointment to appointment and we were riding all over, uh, I think it was I think it was in chino hills. It was in chino hills. We were on our bikes that day and uh In the middle of the strain Okay, so it's been raining all morning. And so we we go outside we step onto our bikes the moment we get onto our bikes Rain stops We ride our bikes all over to this next appointment and uh the moment we step in the doors turn around Just starts raining like crazy. So we go teacher you do our teaching appointment and after teaching Okay, time to go zip up our coats The moment we open those doors Rain stops, okay We we get on our bikes. We ride our bikes on off to the next appointment the moment we step foot inside the house Okay, it happened all day all day. Okay, every time we step that side rain stops and yeah Just for me that day That was a huge sign saying i'm here. I appreciate what you're doing. Yeah, very powerful for me Okay, got it. And then the next question is coming in from coffee mom for 199 They say uh, and just want to let you guys know that i'm coming near the end of my uh Super chat list so anybody who wants to send a super chat if you send it now It will definitely go to the top of the list from coffee not from coffee mom for 199 They said kyle. Have you ever looked for any actual evidence? Any actual event well, they have to define evidence because we Addressed and we came to an agreement here with ozzie in here. I hope I pronounced your name, right ozzie Yeah, so we agreed that evidence can be a sign or indication of something right a sign or indication of something Even though we don't have 100 proof that this happened and so I'll get personal again So A couple weeks ago my daughter had a fever and it was like a A really high fever. It was reaching like uh like 107. Okay on the thermometer 107 okay, and it was pretty high and uh so Uh, I I didn't believe it at first. I was like what and so I took the thermometer and I tested her Her and then I tested like you know brother sister mom over here and Testing everyone to see it. Is this thermometer working correctly? And so they're like, well, let's try testing her nose. There's uh those infrared thermometers and test her nose Okay, let's try in her ear in their mouth and yeah, I kept coming back 107 It was for real and so we're like whoa and so It's kind of a frightening moment there I am actually as I mentioned, I'm a priest As a priesthood holder we can give priesthood blessings and so I was able to give her a blessing and and Through the priesthood that we hold and her fever went away after that and it was really cool All right, and from coffee mom for 199 once again. They say by actual evidence. I mean not personal evidence experience, sorry not personal experience That was a personal experience And you can say that you know, we tested that for a fever, right? We tested her for a fever and uh, you can say oh, well That fever just went away as a fluke and so is it 100 proven that that was You know really the priesthood that You know of jesus christ that caused that fever to dissipate and go away You can try to write it off as some other kind of coincidence, but Not for me. I'm sorry. Yeah What would you have done if he hadn't gone away? Taking her to the ER immediately. Yeah Okay, and then from skeptics and scoundrels for five dollars. They say kyle Let's say just for a moment that rain story was actually wasn't actually a miracle How else would you explain it? uh UFOs Yeah, but yeah I don't know how else to explain that one. Yes Okay, got it I don't believe in you a first aliens gods Uh, well Extra terrestrial, right, but there are worlds outside of our own and yeah, i'm a flat earthy by the way Yeah, I know it's kind of unusual for for flat earthers to be lotterty saints But yeah, that's uh, uh, yeah, I believe there are worlds outside of our own All right got another super chat in from kawani upstate for five dollars. They say Is it possible god is not a mystical being But possibly just a being who species is billions of years more advanced than us and we got it all wrong Uh, I just believe is that for me? I I don't know. I think that's for you kyle Okay. Well, yeah, if we are the offspring of god then that kind of tells me we're the same species. So yeah Well, did god use technology to make the earth? That is a really good question that I do not know the answer to very well. He very well could have but Because it sounds like the alien gods he's sort of describing. He had some form of technology We just don't understand that's that's within the possibility. That's and yeah within the realm of possibility, but yeah, I just don't know Sorry guys, um So that's the last of our super chats From kawani up. No, sorry. That is not a super check From oflameo. Does azian have a god a god tester? No That's short and sweet From surgeon general question for kyle. What shape is the earth? I believe the earth is a terrestrial plane impenetra got it From christian karsten If jesus never said pray to him, why does steven? Call upon jesus to receive his spirit in acts 759 uh I think from what i call steven saw when he was dying He actually saw the saviour kind of appeared before him while he was dying And so he was calling to the person who he saw okay From matt kline uh Question for kyle. Do you ever wonder why when you pray for an answer? You always get the answer back from god. That is exactly the answer you were looking for Uh, that hasn't been my experience some answers were not the answers I was looking for Okay, and then another super check came in from samir farce. Thank you so much samir To azian your problem is that you want to test Measure experience repeat for god in order to believe that That's not believing that's knowing the test is to believe um Yeah, I need some type of facts or observations. I don't necessarily have to understand What it is just like the we observe Gravity we we observe things following right following So we test that so knowledge would be understanding Why things fall? I want the observation the fact for god Okay, and so like I said I had a point to the example with the rain that was kind of one way of him reaching his hand into my life And so it's been different ways for different people and I can't promise you the exact same way every single time But when you are ready and saying Will you reveal yourself to me? Okay Something will happen that and it's been yeah And that's kind of the the fun thing about coming to to church and uh In experiencing testimony meaning is hearing different people's experiences Uh, and the way that god has revealed himself to them because it's different for everyone And so yeah for one person it might be you know No, you know kind of the umbrella the personal umbrella Yeah, so with other people it's just something different All right, and then from skeptics skeptics and scoundrels for five dollars once again They say one more question kyle about the rain story What's more plausible miracle ufo's or coincidence? How do you know your answers? uh miracle for sure on that one just because of the Context the context Uh with that and all the other ones because that's not the only experience. I've ever had like that. Okay, but I've uh I've been a priest since 16, but you don't have to be a priest experiences This goes towards like everyone everyone can experience these kinds of things. Uh, yeah, and uh I experience coincidences All the time I've experienced the rain stop right when I go outside And the rain start back up right when I go in but it's not every entire day I've never heard of anyone else experiencing that before Well, I want to know the entire day because I'm not looking for it either That's all I'm saying. I I don't know how you can know if it was a miracle Versus just a coincidence aliens. I think are impossible because they would haven't had enough time to get here, but Miracles I think are impossible too. So I would always go with coincidence Actually, I think there's just a reason for it and you're just seeing you're just um sort of post-hoc rationalizing the experience as God somehow intervening for you For your mission because your mission was very important for you, right? Okay, um It was really important for me and yeah, there's been like I said It's not just me having experiences like this and you know, and it's not just a single isolated experience but it's like A preponderance of them and I've got journals full of different experiences like that of very similar to that one, uh, you know talking about dreams that end up coming to pass and Uh, you know, I write it, you know beforehand in my journal and then all of a sudden later down there Wow, look at that. You know, it's kind of amazing and There's a really neat one that I have in my uh happened with my my grandpa and uh and uh, there was He and his neighbor and his neighbor was really foul just hated god or i'm not even sure if he was an atheist or He even believed in god. I don't uh Trying to remember off the it's written in a book, but yeah, I could go pull it out if I needed to but anyways, um They're kind of there and they're kind of grouchy and uh a storm is coming their way. Okay, and uh So my grandpa gets out there and he says a prayer and and says heavenly father Uh, you know, this is a kind of been a tough winter right now that we've been going through and he prays and the storm ends up passing Right past his house. Okay. His crops are spared But his neighbor over there It was like a line was driven right down Between the property it was like right on the property line All my crops are safe all his crops are kind of destroyed over there Just and so the guy moves away and they never saw the neighbor again But that was written right there in our family history and yeah, it's kind of one of many many miracles that uh, we Remember so it's like like I said, uh our own personal journals can be just as significant as the bible is Got it. Okay from pokerman pokerman for um, this is a regular question. Um, they asked kyle What why did it take the mormon church so long to allow black people to be ordained? I think that there's a lot of people who struggle with their own Uh beliefs and philosophies and uh It's kind of a cultural thing. There's a lot of things I I can't really say an exact answer for because I don't really know I can just give you my guesses as the matter and my my best guess on the matter is that The people weren't ready for it and that was it and so when the people were ready to change All right now that you now that you're ready to change. Let me teach you more Let me let me show you something and so that when the people are ready to change here you are That there are other times where god comes in and says no, this is how it is and yeah kind of gives people spanking I I guess you could say that with ferro right ferro was uh, I don't believe in your god and all this stuff and uh In the old testament there and yeah, he said hey, I'm here. And so he kind of does that sometimes when uh When necessary Thank god intervened to harden his heart too also sometimes But anyways, that's it Yeah That's how we could we could talk forever about that Yeah, whether or not it got really hardened. That's hard or not. So kind of uh, that made him mad. Does that make sense? Uh, what did did you really make him mad or you know what I mean? So there can be kind of expressions like that that can be taken away or another All right from matt climb question Do you think it's a coincidence that god always gives you the answer? Do we already read this one? No, we didn't that god always gives you the answer that aligns with what you already was gonna do God never says no, you idiot. Don't do that Um, I think that was kind of ferro right there who said Don't do that Yeah, all right got another super chat from nick for five dollars. Thank you so much nick Does god ever not show his existence if someone honestly opens their heart to him? Uh, I've never heard of that kind of Experience yet if someone's being really honest, but I can't speak for everyone else I can only speak for myself and what I've experienced and I think that's the best I can say on the matter right there Okay, um from leo whitmer. They asked kyle. What would you consider good evidence against god? Good evidence against god Yeah, that what would convince you that god did not exist What would convince me that god did not exist? uh I don't know that that's a tough one I kind of at this point i'm i've kind of reached a knowledge state to some degree that Yeah, that he does exist and so when you know something to be true, you can't really erase that So it's not really a question of whether or not he does exist You know, I know he exists, but the question is whether or not he is trustworthy and that's something i'm trying to continually Uh be more and more converted every day Does that make sense? I'm trying to be more and more converted every day trying to trust him more Uh, because I'm still very imperfect. I still make a lot of mistakes and yeah There are other voices out there that I end up listening to and so yeah All right, uh, I guess we'll squeeze one more question out from christian karson If demons can do signs and miracles as the bible says, why can't this be a demon and not god? That is a good question and that's kind of part of this whole thing about developing a relationship of trust as I said before uh, is the difference between uh You know demons and god and you know, which one who or who shall we serve and Yeah, that's it's all part of the adventure there and uh It really comes down to love it really comes down to love. I don't think Demons Are going to enlighten you they're not going to try and you know, they want to destroy you and you know If if god was trying to destroy me, I'd say that's that's a demon What are demons if are the eternal also are the souls prior humans or That is there's different angels That's a good question too. I could talk a lot about that But there are spirits who are both born. Okay. There are different kinds of okay Um, there are evil people in the world right now and I can describe Okay, uh hitler for example, okay If if you're going out there and you know killing a bunch of people, you know mass murder or something like that I could call that person a demon, right? There's someone. Yeah a follower of satan So, uh, whether they are a spirit who is a follower of satan, I could call them a demon If it's a person who's a follower of satan, I can call them a demon. So All right. Well, that's Brings us to the end of our question and answer segment. Thank you both so much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it I just want to say thank you to Oh, so wanted to say thank you to everybody in the audience who uh elevated the conversation send in super chats Thank you to james for creating this platform. Thank you to the moderators in the chat Special shout out to the side show nav and thank you to everybody else. Um, who's gonna watch this show later Really appreciate it and again, thank you to the debaters who are the lifeblood of the show So like it if you loved it share it if you want to spread it and subscribe as we have many more debates Coming your way that you don't want to miss once again stewart connectly and matt de la hunty tomorrow night 8 p.m Join us tomorrow and hit the subscribe button and uh one last time I'm gonna have an after show on my channel. So come on over and continue the conversation there And with that I just want to say uh, that's it So thank you everybody. Have a great night and remember To keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Have a great night