 Welcome. My name is Topal Veen. I am the president and owner of Southflower Web Advisors and it is my pleasure to present to you managing and supporting 450 plus websites a solo pioneers journey. So let's dive right into this. Just before actually I get started, how many people in this room manage one WordPress website? How many manage five? How many manage ten? How many manage more than 25? Okay. So a couple of things I'm going to cover today. Give you a little bit about me, just my own background, my journey. What are the tools that I use? How do I use them? If you were here for Chris's talk that just finished or Nathan's earlier, I actually a lot of the things that they talk about I apply in my own business. So I was really excited to sit through them and say hey yeah I'm doing that already. How I've grown the business, how I've been able to bring on all these clients and lessons that I've learned. Finally I'll have a little bit of Q&A at the end. So I like to have my presentations have a little bit about me with my photos of the family and so forth. As Chris was saying, I started out in 1997 with website development. I started out with a notepad editor and front page. My first two websites were my high school website and a state representative in the state House of Delegates and actually I'm still doing her website to this day. We've gone through a number of iterations over the years but I'm still doing her website to this day and I've always had a passion for this. I've always liked technology and so that's where I started out. After high school I went to Rochester Institute of Technology and got a degree in management information systems. I also got a certificate in what they called e-business which was in essence online marketing and e-commerce and again I'm one of those people who I'm doing what I went to school for. I know we hear about people going in all different directions. After school I joined a small what I would consider a startup company. It was a company about seven people that did a they had a content management system. At the time it I remember conversations sitting around saying well wait WordPress does this don't we want to do that as well and it was like well yeah it's PHP based but no we want to go in a different direction with certain things and in that company I did everything from customer support to billing to sales engineering and everything in between so I learned a lot about business operations just in that small company. Around 2010 I'd been there for almost seven years at that point and we just heard about customer support in the last session in here and I saw the direction customer support was going I saw the direction the company was going and I said this is not where I want to go with my career where I what I want to be doing and so I ended up leaving and going to work with one of their distributors who was really focusing on websites in the local community and one of the things that I found was because I left of my own accord I left on really good terms I still keep in contact with the people both the ownership employees as well as some of the clients who reached out to me over the years and so it was one of the lessons that I learned early on is don't burn bridges even if you're you know depending on where things are going just be personal be good about it and you never know where it's going to lead down the line so I joined one of the local agencies it was him he had a partner it was myself his partner left and so it was just him and me then and after about three years he decided he was ready to retire and mind you this was his third time over retiring I in essence purchased out the business from him and at that point we had about 60 websites and most of them were html just static sites that were literally if we made one update to them a year that was it and we had about five or ten WordPress websites and so that was really where I started my baseline of the company so who do I manage and support directly I have about 150 direct clients today and these are nonprofits these are doctors offices some law firms you name it I work with them I have a number of homeowners associations and then I have over 300 what I call agency client sites so I work with three or four different agencies depending on the the day of the week and I am in essence their tier two support so I'm doing everything that we've all talked about that we do with WordPress I work I do that for them I work behind the scenes that way when their clients have an issue and they can't figure it out they reach out to me I'm sort of like a virtual employee from that perspective and I make sure that their WordPress websites are up and running and stay secure so for my direct clients first thing that I do is I take care of their content I take care of their plugins and I take care of their system updates and when I say content I'm not generating content for them they provide me the content but they don't have to worry about logging into WordPress I was actually looking through and I would say probably about 90% of the 150 websites my clients don't even have an admin login that they just so I don't worry about them messing things up from that perspective they just send me their content and that's included in the service that I'm providing and many of these clients are clients as I mentioned a few minutes ago that only have a few updates a year they're changing out an event or they want to change a photo most of their sites other than a contact form as their call to action they want to have an online presence they're not they don't necessarily need to be doing other things with it the other thing though that I do is consult for projects and direction so some of the clients that I have are nonprofit associations these are clients that are a bit more active and that I do give that are logging into WordPress for these clients usually once a quarter we will sit down for about an hour and say what's coming up in the next quarter what are the projects that we need to be working on is there anything that they need that is not already being done that might be a custom project for me or is it just the day-to-day operations but at least we know what's going on with their website what I really have fun with these is some of the consultative pieces of it is where they say oh well we need to do XYZ for a project and sometimes I can say great I know exactly what I'm gonna do I've already done this three other times let me just copy it in and other times it's like wow I've never really thought about that let me do some research and I can get back with you if we can if we need to bring in a third party and I'm very upfront with them I know what my limitations are I don't try to oversell myself and I'll say I need to do some research on that and get back to you let you know if I can do that or not and my clients I find appreciate that honesty because if it is something that I have to build them for or if we do need to go to a third party they are very comfortable with that decision at that point now for the agencies that I work with the first thing is I'm their tier two support I don't often directly interact with their customers sometimes I will when we get into some sales engineering but for the most part I'm just in the background but it gives them that level of comfort that they can maintain the content they do a lot of SEO work they do a lot of optimization and lead management and so they can focus on that and I focus on the stuff that they don't want to have to think about which is the technical things one of the agencies that I work with I love I'm on a zoom call with them every so often and they they say oh my god Phillip you just put me into a coma because they just don't get the technology and that's fine they don't need to they are very good at the marketing and organization management which is the services that they provide and so I help them out and I'm there as a resource for them I also take care of doing their plugin and system updates one of the things that was talked about and I think it was actually one of the sessions yesterday about onboarding a client is making sure that you get login information and so even for these agencies whether it's through delegated access to their account or if they share passwords to a password manager I make sure I get their logins as well because just God forbid you run a plugin update something fails along the way I need to be able to go in and fix it and I don't want to first call them or call their client to get access it's great when I can just get in FTP whatever it is and make the update and get it fixed and usually nobody's the wiser I'll let them know that something happened but I'm able to take care of that and finally like with my direct clients I often do the sales engineering side of things and consultation and oftentimes these are bigger projects that we need to do and again they'll bring me in as needed on those so now that I said well who am I supporting well how have I grown the brick business and where do I get my leads from so the first thing that I've always been involved with is networking groups and these in turn are oftentimes through Chamber of Commerce's I have found that these are one of the best sources of leads because they're often pre qualified it's not just somebody saying oh here here's somebody you know go sell them a website it's oh this is one of my existing clients they have this need please can you help them out and so it's really about relationships the networking groups I've found over the years especially when you can get a what's called a power team or a core group so if I can find one that has an IT person who doesn't do websites but does all the hardware side of things that I don't want to touch or that also has like a graphic artist or a print shop where the website is not their area of expertise but they love giving out referrals so that way they're servicing the need of their clients one of my biggest lead sources that I have next thing is current customers I find that I would say probably 90% of my leads come from current customers because I make them happy they let their friends and family and other business acquaintances know and that's where they then refer to me I would say probably about 90% of the leads and business that I get is almost sold before I even speak to the customer it's more so they just want some of the details of what I'm offering and I'm very transparent with my pricing up front it's I I'll say this is you know here is our ballpark number for what this is gonna be does this sound like what you're looking for and I've had some clients be like oh wait no that that's a little bit more I'm not ready to go that route or some being will say wait that's all that it is and and I often laugh and I say yes because of how I've structured the business I'm able to scale and do it at that price point next thing is conferences and message boards so I attend word camps I attend some other meetups as well and I find it's great not only to attend the conference and learn new things but also to network with people to find others that are doing similar things some that might need various services and then the message boards I find are away from me to give back I'm very active in a number of online groups on Facebook and and with some of the hosting companies as well and I really try to give back because I've been doing this for over 20 years now and I have a vast amount of knowledge and I want to help those that are just learning or might be looking at new ways of doing things and so I really try to give back and oftentimes what will happen is somebody will say oh I saw your responses on the message board could you help me out with this and we go from there I will say I do try not to take on too many one-off projects I really try to get people into a maintenance plan and recurring revenue because that's what it's all about at the end of the day but sometimes there's the instance where it's like no this is really just going to be this one-off project and I and I will do it but those are really due and far between because I really am about the relationships now one of the last points that I have on here is strategic barters free sites over the years I've probably done about one free site every three years or so and oftentimes it's where I see that I have the opportunity to get my name out there in additional places in addition additional vertical markets as well as where it's just the right thing to do there's been some you know whether it be a organization that was doing good things in the community there was one is my local community newspaper for my it's a monthly newsletter for my community I give them the site they put an ad in there over the six or seven years that I've been doing the site I don't think I've got in one lead from it but it's just it's one of those things people see me they know me and actually what they've done is say sometimes have referred to and oh I saw your ad I let somebody else know about it and sometimes they call so from there what is my business model what is my pricing first thing is I have a one-time setup fee this is in essence my onboarding fee and I really honed in on this is what does it cost me in terms of my out-of-pocket expense and my time to get up and running and that's one of the things that people often don't necessarily factor in is they think about well okay I know how much the server costs I know how much the theme cost but they don't necessarily factor in their time cost to this and one of the things I'm going to talk about in a few minutes is know your value know how much your time is worth and sometimes on some of these things I factored in a learning curve of saying okay once I know how to do this I know that are only taking a half hour but on this one it's going to take me two hours now I'm not necessarily going to charge the client for those that extra hour and a half of my learning time but I at least know in the back of my mind where I'm going to be with things now what I will often do is on this one-time setup fee I typically split it half up front half when we go live with the website some clients have said oh can you do any terms and usually what I'll do is when I do terms I then say yes but we're going to do a set schedule because I want to make sure that they're not dragging their feet out on getting me my payment the next thing is I have a monthly fee that I bill quarterly I find doing it quarterly and in advance of the quarter this way if there's ever any issues I know from a cash flow perspective I'm always getting three months of revenue coming in and not all of my clients are on the same quarter so every month I'm getting quarterly payments from anywhere from you know 2030 clients at any given time and so I always have that in there and it makes life a lot easier if a client were to leave me oftentimes it's they might leave me in the middle of the quarter they don't even ask for anything back and it's a month-to-month sort of agreement one of the things with determining and getting where my monthly fee was is and was is knowing what my out-of-pocket expenses so I mentioned that I started out doing HTML websites when we were doing the HTML websites we were charging people $25 a month that was for the hosting if they had an update here or there $25 a month today I'm charging $75 a month now my costs have not necessarily gone up that much but there's value in the services that I'm offering my when I do my budgeting I figure on approximately 10 to $15 per month per website when I factor in all in cost of how much is the hosting how much have I paid for things like Elementor how much have I paid for Gravity Forms how much have I paid for all these different components because I use them on all those sites so I take that and divide it out and so that way I have a real good idea of what this is actually costing me and then I know if my monthly fee is at a good price point one of the things that I do this is a turnkey offering meaning that I am providing everything I take care of their domain registration I do register it in their name so if they ever need what I transferred to them it is in their name but everything really resides in my account my clients for the most part love this because they don't have to think about well wait who is my server provider who is my domain registration they just come to me for all of that it's a one-stop shop it also makes me sticky meaning that if they do want to leave and I've made it very easy for people to leave if they ever want to but at the same time it's like wait they have everything with me they don't necessarily want to have to go get a new vendor for everything so it makes me a little more sticky the other thing that I've done is had a standard set up an environment I have a standard load set I actually don't do it as a clone I do it as a new install each time although it probably takes me maybe 10 minutes longer I find this way I know that I have the latest plug-in versions and that I'm not working off an old clone and I know everything is clean my next thing is managing my time and I loved in Chris's presentation for those that were in the room where he talked about setting boundaries one of the things is I really try to keep to a 40-hour work week and as I say this and as I was rehearsing this my wife was yelling at me and rolling her eyes at me of wait do you really do a 40-hour work week no it's probably more like 50 to 60 depending on what's going on but I do try to keep to the 40 hours because it makes it sets those boundaries and even if I like I had an email that came in a little while ago and I replied to the client saying thank you I got this I know what the issue is it'll be addressed during the week I at least acknowledged it but that was it it wasn't that I was addressing the issue then and there I just wanted them to at least know that I acknowledged it so first thing is I take about 10% of my time to work on new websites doing the networking doing just being out there in the community 10% of my time spent on that then I take about 10% of my time going on to Facebook and doing more of my give back sort of thing and again I look at that from the perspective of it does help me grow the business over time it I build my reputation and so I there is value in doing that about 5% of my time is bookkeeping and accounting I use QuickBooks for my accounting I have memorized transaction so it really is just doing some of the day-to-day cleanup of deposits and just making sure where everything is at with receivables but it doesn't take a lot of my time because I've automated that 10% of my time is spent on the consulting side of it of saying well what projects are you doing what what's new where do you want to go with this 25% of my time is on the maintenance work of doing backups doing plug-in updates and while I am using some site management tools I don't have the automation turned on this is one thing that I often tell people and some people will disagree with me on this but I I do not with the exception I think of gravity forms have any automated plugin updates turned on I want to know when those updates are gonna run because again you never know even though if you have backups you never know if something could break somewhere and I'd rather know I'm clicking update so if I know that something's broken okay I can go and address it because I just went in and clicked update I will update 100 plus websites at one time but I do it when I know that I'm gonna do it and then the biggest chunk of my time is really doing the content updates is when my clients send me the updates that the support tickets aren't necessarily issues their updates that they need made to their website and that is really the biggest chunk of my time now what I also find is that I'll have client a email me today and then I won't hear from them for eight months client be will email me tomorrow and so forth so that is also the way that I'm able to scale things is I'm not necessarily handling all the same clients every month of the content updates because it just it's that moving window so the next thing that I like to look at is what are the systems that I use and one thing that I have up here is I say that I'm always evaluating and what I mean by that is so for example accounting I use QuickBooks about a month ago I got an email from QuickBooks saying with your next billing cycle you're now gonna be another $5 more per month and I said okay well this is now $25 more than what I started using QuickBooks what else is out there and I spent about an hour of my time and I looked and I there's fresh books there's a few other systems and I started looking and they're all at the same price point and I said this is an instance where what I have is working there isn't something more cost-effective out there and so it's not gonna be beneficial for me to to move but I do look at what else is out there because I need to be aware of it even if it's just for my own education that I'm not gonna switch but at least knowing what else is out there next thing is site management I happen to use pro sites from GoDaddy which is their managed WP product I have been using this for oh probably about four years at this point and it's probably one of the longest time that I've used any of the site management tools just spent a moment on this when I first started expanding my WordPress management I started out with a there was product and still around called infinite WP which was great when I only had 15 20 sites in there but as I started to grow at the time their platform couldn't necessarily support in a efficient way large number of sites you'd click on update or you just log in and it would take 25 minutes just to synchronize the dashboard and I'm like no I need to be more productive than that from there I went to WP remote this was before blog vault acquired them I'm worked with that for a little bit then I went to main WP which if you're looking for a self-hosted solution I I'll tell you I like their product the only the only negative that I ever can find about it is the fact that they don't do a lot directly with their product they rely on third-party providers and so you have to install a lot of add-ons and plugins to integrate those third-party providers and I like to keep my WordPress sites lean where I can and not have as many plugins that's my only knock on main WP if I were to ever have to switch I would probably go back to that and as I said I ended up with right around the time of GoDaddy's acquisition of managed WP when they were launching their Orion product I went to manage WP and it's like hey this has everything I need it can handle backups I don't see server performance issues and so it worked but again even last night in talking with the folks from Jetpack I looked at their dashboard overnight it was like okay this is interesting let me just see because again this way of a client asked me well what are you using or if I'm not I can talk to it in an intelligent way hosting I have used any hosting product in every hosting product across the board whether it be cPanel I was doing WordPress on a Windows box at one point I don't recommend that but I was doing that I've used managed products today I actually am using Amazon light sales server on their AWS product it is a VPS server but one of their things and people will say well wait how why would you ever use a product that limits CPU usage because they it has some virtualization on the CPU and my sites most of my sites are five to ten pages and if they get 50 visits a week it's a lot there these are people who just want to have an online presence what I liked about Amazon light sale is I start out with their five dollar a month server which is a one gig two CPU server and my larger clients I have on their 20 dollar a month server which is a two CPU 8 gig server and it works I really don't have performance issues and what I like about this is I set each client up on their own server I actually set each client up in their own Amazon account I then have a consolidated billing and this way it really isolates that client that if I ever have any issues or if they want to move I say that client guess what you don't even need to move your hosting you don't want to use my services that's fine I can just move this Amazon account over to you and you take ownership and it's good so it gives me a lot of flexibility from that perspective and finally the the last thing that I use in evaluating is mail services this is just what I inherited with the business was doing email for clients these are basic pop IMAP accounts we really try to keep things simple I had used the Windows based product at one point about eight years ago or so there's a small little company known as open SRS for those that may not know by that mean you might have heard of a domain company called two cows open SRS is the parent company of two cows they have an email hosting product that is 50 cents per 5 gig mailbox per month which when it comes to hosting mailboxes that is very reasonable well they've had infrastructure issues so again I was evaluating and I actually found a company out of Las Vegas called MX route that all they do is email hosting and I've been very happy with them and I've moved many of my clients over to them and use them for new new clients so what are some of the lessons that I've learned and my house is a cat household so I had to have a cat in my presentation here I mentioned earlier know your own value so I'll sometimes have clients ask me well oh it's $75 a month what if you bill me out I say well if I'm gonna bill you hourly I'm gonna bill you at a minimum of 125 an hour and I found over the years that for most of my clients that if I were to build them hourly over the course of the year just for that and maybe build them a small amount for the hosting they didn't have paying me probably more actually if they were it's sort of like car insurance sort of thing is you pay even if you're not necessarily gonna need it it's there for the peace of mind and I found over the years it just works better and I know my value and I and if I have somebody who says oh well you know that's well I'm sorry that's gonna be too much I'm sorry maybe we're not gonna be able to work together because this is this is the price point that I'm at today takeaway sale this is something that I learned and I've actually probably closed about five deals with this one is where while you're talking with the customer if you see that they're sort of like on the fence and and you might know in your mind that hey this can be a good fit in the long run you sort of say them maybe you're not ready to work with me maybe this isn't gonna be the right fit long term why aren't you you know work with a DIY builder or something along those lines get started and come back to me when you're and they'll all say oh wait no no no I want to work with you I don't want to have to I need somebody who can do this for me don't take on projects that don't fit learn this in essence did this one time started the project ended up giving the client the money back because it wasn't it just it wasn't the right fit and at this point in my career and in where I have the business day I don't take every project that walks in the door I really be careful about that and it's because you get burned once and it's like you never want to do it again so it's just be aware know what your level of expertise what you're comfortable with and don't take on things that don't fit listen to others find out synergies I often will again at conferences listen to what other presenters are saying find things of where there are systems that I may not have thought of using and be like oh wait that's a great way that I can grow the business it was actually interesting I was chatting with the folks upstairs at Jetpack and they were telling me about something in WooCommerce with a change database table structure and it's like oh my goodness I never even knew about that I even know you were working on that that will make my life so much easier when I go to migrate this new website that I we just rebuilt and I need to move all their commerce data if it's in separate tables that's gonna make my life so much easier so listen to what others are talking about find those synergies one of the biggest things and people often say to me when I get on a zoom call with them they'll say you have such a smile you're so positive life is too short to worry about so many of these things you just got to you know roll with it go with it if I lose a client do I lose sleep over it maybe one night and I sometimes go back and say wait why did I lose that client but at the end of the day it's one client it's not and guess what the next day I'm gonna bring on a new client and probably have them paying more than the old client that left was paying so in the end it it's a better thing to do and I just I love doing this so with that are there any questions yeah I would tell you the entire suite the entire between the performance monitoring definitely the backups the SEO tool really everything that they have in their suite now I the only thing I actually don't use that is one of the paid items is the client reporting my clients I've never sent with the exception I think of one never sent my clients a monthly quarterly report because they don't frankly they'll tell you they don't care they just they want their website up and running they want to know that I'm managing it for them and that's where it is now I will say and I forget who said this I think was Nathan said this this morning in his talk is I am very careful about presenting the company as well yes they're working with me they're working with my company and they they know the company is just me but it's it's not just it's selling the company because they're from a branding perspective it's not that I'm branding myself I'm branding the company and that I have found helps grow the business as well yeah sure the question was what paid add-ons do I use and recommend within managed WP I install analytics I install analytics on all my sites so that way I have that information but when when when you're working with you know a mom-and-pop shop that you know it's like I have a number of homeowners associations their target market is the residents who live in their communities they know who's coming to their site if you're on their EC2 platform it does when you're on their light sale platform it's neatered and they do have some burst capability but it's neatered on because it's more of a it's not a shared platform because they're VP but it's a lower-end platform that are for those smaller websites I I have a quote-unquote system it's not automated but it is I will do an initial call with them I do have a proposal template so that way I'm able to just that really has my maintenance scope of work in it has the majority setup work and then it's just adding maybe three or four bullet points my proposal slash contract is a one-pager given that I do everything a month month and I will share my setup fee is usually between 19 between 900 to 1500 dollars I'm going after that smaller clientele that they don't have the budget for a three to five thousand dollar website and so just through that process now I will say one thing that I wish that I'd done early on that I didn't do was to set up a support ticket system since it's just me myself and I I managed support through my my Google email account I use Google workspace but what I do is I label home I have a lot of labels in Google so that way I can find clients very easily and I use my inbox and I try to do the concept of inbox zero and use my inboxes my support ticket and to-do list system one of the things that I wish I would have done very early on and to say okay if you need you know if it's a sales question sort of thing send to me directly if it's support related send it to support for so I can track it there but I never did that and it was oh it was like well wait Phil we're emailing it we're emailing you why why use multiple systems and every time that I've explored some of the ticketing systems that are out there and spent about a month with any of them it's more work and more it makes me less productive because I'm having to bounce between multiple systems to manage it so was there a question that I so for new clients yes I will do price increases many of my clients have been with me for 10 15 20 years and some of those are still at the $25 a month I usually what I try to do is once every five years or so I do try to bump those older clients up to try to get them more so the $25 went to $30 then from there I went to 40 now when you look at a percentage increase that for some of those that's a huge percentage but then I say to them look I've had you at this price point for 10 years for 15 years I have had certain costs of increase I really do need to increase and quite frankly I had one client that left me when I did that and two or three years later they came back if they were gonna leave me over five five dollars they were gonna leave me for some other reason anyway so it was one of those things I really didn't lose sleep over it so any other questions yes to my own website I I do that maybe once every two to three years I do a redesign on my own website in terms of running all the updates of plugins and themes that I do pretty much daily but one of the things that I do is when I see that there's a plug-in that depending on what the plug-in is like whoa and a few of the other ones out there if I know that that plug-in typically has an update after the update I'll wait a day or two just to make sure that I'm not seeing that extra plug-in update come out and then I'll run it for them I all of my payments for that I actually do directly through QuickBooks and QuickBooks Merchant Services because it's all integrated they can pay by check or by credit card and it just I get the money in my bank it does all the inputs for the receivables and it just again it saves me time I've seen some folks use invoicing systems but that they're then not tied back to their accounting systems and so there's a lot of integration where having everything right in through my accounting system saves me time and energy right so it in managed WP I just click you know I see all the sites and I'll just click off one plug-in and it'll tell me that it's available for 300 of the 450 and and that I just click and let it run and again I there have been times where I say update everything because I know what there's only two or three plugins I know what they are I know they're not gonna break but there are other times where if I have 30 plugins that need to get updated across all the sites I will click update 30 times because I let it run I give it a little bit I just make sure I don't get any site down notifications or any of the fatal error notifications and I'm good there is one site where I had an issue where site wasn't down but functionality broke it was an integration between the events calendar and WooCommerce and some checkout functionality and we we caught it within an hour it was a they happened to be on the site somebody tried and it's not a high-volume site but we caught it and all I did was I rolled it back it was a bug in the plug-in but that one site I now have a note to say okay I'm gonna you know after I run the update I go when I check that site for the most part those are the exceptions not the rule so my monthly hosting in oh my so that is I do the layout and design of the site and I use themes I use WP Astra as my main theme and this also helps the process from the perspective of I give them the demo site of that we're gonna use and I say okay look at what content is in this demo site replace the Laura Mipson with your content and it gives them exact homework of what to do and I get away from that white sheet blank stare so it's the the setup of the site the installation WordPress initial training if they're gonna be doing that loading in all their content I in essence do it I say give me what you want on the site I'm gonna put it all in once we have it in if you need to be trained I'll train you but that way you're not trying to learn from a blank slate so that the monthly fee includes I take care of the hosting I take care of email as I mentioned I usually give between three to five email accounts depending on how big their company is I take care of the plugin updates I take care of the content updates the only time that I've really had any additional fees is where if somebody said okay well hey I want to install BB press and set up a bulletin board on my site and it's like look we didn't do that as part of the initial setup that there's going to be a keyboard because there's a lot of configuration or if we were going to add WooCommerce on down the line where we got a lot of setup and configuration that I might have an initial fee but I talk with them and I give them a scope of work and price it out as a project so it's not that the hourly clock starts running I and that way it's very transparent to everyone yeah what I will write in terms of how I work with that of using a template is what I will actually do based on the discussion with the client and what they're looking for I will find the two or three templates content packs that I know would work for them and I'll say take a look at these please pick one of these and that's the one that will so I'm trying to avoid that oh my goodness I'm looking at 500 different designs which one is going to be white so that that's the way that I avoid the correct correct so any other questions yes so the the server gives me the ability I can host it's a VPS server so I and it's running Plesk as the management so I can always spin up on that same server a staging site when needed most of the changes that I'm making for these clients I don't need a staging site I might create a second page on the site for the ones that I do I just in Plesk you say copy site I throw a temporary domain on it and we do it from that perspective and makes life very easy yeah out of all my clients I think maybe five at most are e-commerce sites so those I really try to focus and those I have my own processes for just but since they're not in the main system of everything else and I really focus on those special and those are those one-offs yes and I know we're just about out of time here so I use GoDaddy for my registrar all I and I will say I also I paid a little bit extra for the domain discount club because when in GoDaddy has a product for those that don't know something called domain discount club it the break-even point is some and they actually have two different levels the first level is I want to say at the break-even is if you have about 25 domains and the second level is if they think you have 75 domains and they tell you on the site but like I pay I want to say I believe it's about 120 dollars a year but instead of paying $15 per domain or whatever the standard prices for dot-com it is I pay $8 and change with the ICANN fees so when you have I have a probably 150 to 200 domains in my account because I manage for all the clients I get a much better pricing now I charge them my clients the retail price and they're fine with that there the difference is also I'm managing their DNS and everything else from them so that's part of my revenue stream as well so the other advantage that is you also get their premium DNS service when you're in that so it's it supposedly from what I recall the marketing material is for example you I think it allows you to have up to a hundred zone records versus I think the the main one has like a cap of 20 or something it go on the GoDaddy website look domain discount club it spells it out all in the marketing so again I have my Twitter X handle email address if you'd like to reach out for anything if you want the slides or anything just let me know they're in my account but when I do all the registration information I'm the technical billing contact the client is the client it is the contact now in this day and age when all domains have privacy nobody really sees that anyway but I still put it in there because it's important from a legal perspective that if they ever want them if whatever reason they need to try to get something I want to make sure it's in their name so thank you