 Awesome. Alright. Well, welcome. And thank you for your time and trust in joining us for winning marketing strategies for OpenStack. We've got four diverse panelists here. They've come together to open source our strategies and our tactics on winning with OpenStack in a few different areas. One, content marketing. Two, internal marketing and influencing your IT peers and IT strategy. Three, external marketing and outbound marketing. And four, and finally, weaving OpenStack into the business and the product cycle. So, you know, I'm really happy to be here at the summit. One of the things that I love about the summit is that it's a lot of fun, especially to come and experience the community firsthand, right? I mean, this is the open source live. And it's awesome because we get to see the open sharing and collaboration right here and obviously we have awesome cities and we have drinks tonight. So look forward to. Thank you, Boothcrawl. And now we can also add to the list dancing bears. Thank you, Morantis. I don't know what's up with those VMware operators. They must be really jonesing for a gig to take on that role of a dancing bear. Anyways, I'm really happy to be here. I sure hope that you guys have a lot of stories and wisdom of how you've won with OpenStack. We're definitely going to open up the mics at the end. What we're going to open up the panel session today is to go through four questions from our panelists here and we'll do a quick round of intros in just a second. And then we'll kind of turn the tables to you guys to hopefully start brainstorming right now. But yeah, we'll put the mics back on the stands and you guys can come and ask questions or contribute your own winning story with OpenStack. So first of all, introductions. I'll start since I've got the floor already. James Kelly, I'm a cloud software architect at Juniper Networks. I work in the portfolio and solutions marketing division. I'm Joseph Sandoval. I'm the director of the cloud platform at Lithium Technologies. Hi, everyone. I'm Kamish Pemeraju. I'm with Morantis and I do product marketing and the bear you saw this morning at the keynote wasn't my idea, but we all sat in the room and came up with it. I like that idea. I'm Heidi Joy Trathaway. I'm a senior marketing manager with the OpenStack Foundation. So I focus on the marketing community, the user survey, and branding. Awesome. Thanks guys. So yeah, let's go into our first question to kind of open up the floor here. So the first topic is kind of content marketing. So how can you use macro IT trends to accelerate OpenStack messaging? And I thought we would probably start with Heidi Joy, since she's joining us from the OpenStack Foundation. Yeah, I mean, I'm really joining you with nine months new to OpenStack. I joined the foundation in July, but 20 years of content marketing under my belt from being a journalist and really just focusing on content to being a content marketer and focusing on the ways that I could build content that people want to consume, rather than pushing messages out there from the standpoint of advertising. I was trying to come up with content that people would want to pull to themselves, that they would actually go out and seek it out. And so I remember having a very early open source fight at my global commercial real estate company. I said, you know, if we put all of this information out there about how we do real estate, people will see that and they'll think, man, these people are really smart. And the senior brokers who I pitched this idea to said, no, we can't give away all of our secrets. And so content marketing was almost like, it just goes hand in hand with the idea of open sourcing, not only technology, but just knowledge in general. So your question, how you use macro IT tends to accelerate OpenStack messaging. We have a great example today from the keynote when Donna Scott from Gartner was talking about bimodal IT, mode one and mode two. When we were looking at some major macro IT trends, I kind of went back to my days as a journalist and thought about the fact that when you piggyback on a story, when you can take a story of national or international importance and significance and then you can localize it to be something that impacts the reader, the user, the person that you are targeting, then you're really kind of giving them something special. You're giving them insight into something that can better connect with them. And so you're providing a service. One other thing that we think about is this idea that if I can tell somebody something they don't know, well, they might start to listen to me more. But if I can tell them something they don't know about their own business, that's really exciting. So again, that's how we're thinking about piggybacking on the stories. So in the Super User Magazine, for example, you'll see an article about bimodal IT, authored by Jonathan that really piggybacks on Donna Scott's overall big picture bimodal IT message with a more specific OpenStack message around cloud-native applications. Yeah, I think there's so many macro IT trends that we can kind of ride the coattails of as OpenStack marketers or marketers of our own organizations or internal advocates for moving to cloud and moving to OpenStack. I mean, I think of hybrid cloud, right? And the state of the cloud surveys from right scale and companies like them and saying, you know, 80% of IT and enterprise IT is going towards an end goal of hybrid cloud or IDC talking about the third platform in cloud. And obviously, you know, your example hits home today with Donna on stage this morning of bimodal IT and how the next generation, right? IDC's third platform is all about OpenStack and all about, you know, treating the data center as the computer. Yeah, so for content marketers out there or folks who really want to create content that might be part of your website or part of your product marketing content, I'd be looking really at not what are my competitors doing, but what is the media reporting? What are the analysts talking about? What are those big picture things that are affecting CIOs, IT infrastructure managers? The big picture things that are making a dent and your company has some piece to play in either solving that problem or contributing to a new way of thinking about that problem. Yeah. Yeah. Shall we look at that? So let me add a couple of things here. So we use the term uberization of the enterprise. How many of you have heard of that term? Uberization of the enterprise. So in the context of VW, for example, the thing that was driving them was really about the connected car, right? The Teslas of the world are kind of leading that next wave of, you know, how you drive. You know, you have driverless cars. You've got all these, you know, data that's coming back from the car to you. Hey, you need a fuel, you know, your fuel is running out or your battery is running out or you need a service change, et cetera, et cetera. All that is driven by a cloud, effectively. Your car is connected to the cloud and how do you stay relevant in that kind of an environment? That was VW's challenge, for example. How to compete in a connected car environment. So that's a good example of the macro trend in the business that's driving companies like VW and other enterprises. I mean, Airbnb is another example where the hotel industry is getting disrupted, right? You can go share, you know, hotel rooms and people's houses, et cetera. That's disrupting the hotel industry. And by the way, all of this is driven by digital services. If you've used Uber, it's all about smartphones and GPS and finding your driver and the driver finding you, that wouldn't be possible without the cloud and mobile applications driving it. So we call it Uberization of the enterprise for the CIOs and CEOs of large organizations. We start with that. Is your business getting disrupted? If it is, let's talk about how it's getting disrupted and how you can use mobile, big data, analytics, and cloud to enable it. So that's the messaging we use for the IT trends. And then we talk about cloud, hybrid cloud, it kind of comes from there. Yeah. And I think, you know, like just coming from like a user perspective, I mean, there's a lot of good stuff. Like even, you know, for myself, I look at a lot of the messaging that's out there and like you mentioned, Heidi Joy, you know, things like the hybrid cloud, all these trends that we're starting to see kind of come back and, you know, what I found was important though is like we do kind of lock on and we hear some of that messaging. But what's important is like there's still a lot of disruption happening and you can also find yourself being also distracted. So once you kind of hone in and identify those trends, like lock into what that is and allow that to kind of be your internal messaging. Yeah. That's a good segue probably into the next question. So why don't we go to the next question? So, you know, kind of focusing on internal marketing, internal advocacy and influencing the internal sphere and IT strategy. How do you position OpenStack and provide proof points to convince management of its business value? And of course, you know, I think Joseph's probably the best candidate to take us through a first stab at this. Yeah. And I've done this, you know, twice and I know that that first time when I went down this journey, one of the things that I was just kind of thinking with that initial point was like, is this a like a virtualization platform replacement or I'm making this like AWS in the data center. But then I really kind of stepped back and was really realizing as I thought about the audience internally, what was important was that I was focusing on like what problems were we really trying to solve? Like what was slowing our business down? How could we gain agility? Once I started kind of like honing in on that, all the other things behind like, you know, like where we wanted, where we aspire to get to started really kind of building out that bigger vision where we realized that, yeah, hybrid played a strategy for what we were trying to do. We were really trying to shorten like our ability to be innovative on our product. And so that started really kind of feeling out of the reason why we were going down this path. And the one thing I appreciated about the current CEO that he always kind of talks about to us is if you really want to get his attention, you know, show him ROI, show him the metrics. And so for myself, like what we thought about was like, okay, we know what the problem is. We want to help developers be able to go faster and to have that agility in the data center. So let's start tracking like what is it currently today and like what does it start to look like over time as we start hitting our milestones of delivering parts of OpenStack. And the great thing about OpenStack is that it's a broad framework that you can really tailor to your business. So allow that to really shape your narrative and then you'll find that you start getting buy-in across the board from, you know, level V levels on down into your organization. Yeah, I mean one of the things with respect to what we've done internally at Juniper which has been, you know, pretty big in the news if you follow Juniper News, obviously I do because I work there, you know, you hear a lot about what our IT department is doing and we've had some executive changes and executive strategy has become pretty public and Juniper does a lot of stuff in AWS. You know, AWS really loves our company because we get a lot of good publicity but because we use AWS it was actually like a no-brainer just straightforward decision to also use OpenStack internally because of that kind of functional, non-functional parity you get between the APIs and the semantics of how OpenStack was modeled after so many of, you know, EC2, S3 and so on. So the question is, we were talking about agility. The question is, do you need agility at the infrastructure layer or do you need agility at the application layer? This is a very subtle question and a very important question to ask right in the beginning because what we see at Morantis we have done a lot of different implementations of OpenStack what tends up happening is that there are all these great initiatives we talk to the administrator or the VP of infrastructure we go build an OpenStack cloud for them it's running and then after six months well nothing's happening, right? There's no maintenance, there's nobody expanding there's nobody adding, you know, applications on top of it and then we go back and dig in and ask why, what's going on here? There are two major hurdles and this is what is very important for you to sell internally is A, do you have the ops expertise? So do you know how to keep this OpenStack cloud up and running? and B, do you have the tools for your developers to be productive? At the end of the day, as Joe was saying if you can show before and after before you did OpenStack, it took you 45 days to take an application into production after you have OpenStack, is it still 45 days or is it five minutes? You have to show that differentiation between before and after and the only way you can show that is if you have KPI metrics and you actually have the developers delighted with the cloud they'll say, oh I don't know what to deal with as Boris was saying this morning if you need a VM, if you have to go or a ticket into your IT department it's a lost cause so it's very important to have process and people ideas also into the mix right in the beginning I think that before and after is such a good example it's that distillation of what's working you can give someone a laundry list of proof points but the truth is people respond to stories they remember stories I like to say that a thousand stats are worth one good story because chances are you can remember those stories and repeat them, articulate them to other people who need to sign the checks or sign the purchase order which is really critical there's actually some comments from the guys who do infomercials who say you need that kind of one wow moment where you take the white t-shirt you dump red wine on it you dump the detergent on it you shake it up and then poof that one wow moment might be the difference between provisioning something over the course of four weeks or the course of 40 minutes and if you can give that one wow moment then that becomes the repeatable thing that from an internal marketing perspective you can sell right up the chain there's one other quick point I wanted to make is if you want to be successful with open stock internally you need to have what we call an anchor tenant so that anchor tenant is the one that's absolutely 100% delighted with using open stock and they'll never ever go to AWS if you can get such an anchor tenant internally and developers are actually very productive then you've made your case because they're going to go tell other people let's say hey why are you using AWS we've got full security, compliance we can have open APIs and it's all working internally and the word of mouth will make it happen internal advocates yeah I think you know it's just always important to remember as marketers right what do other people care about if you're in IT and you're trying to influence your boss I mean the CIO has a boss who's his boss the CEO right or the CFO or both of them so both of them what does the CEO care about increasing business agility what does the CFO care about decreasing TCO if you can weave that into external marketing and as an internal marketer the CIO has you know more than ever before gone from this guy that was the grateful dead t-shirt wearing guy to the keeping the lights on safe secure technology make it work to now how do we use technology to increase revenue and to add value and accelerate value to the business so if you can weave that into your message your golden so I think that actually is a good segue as well into external marketing because some of those same things we could take into external marketing as vendors and other roles so let's go with this one what marketing strategies are most successful to communicate the value of OpenStack to customers so I thought you know Morantis is very synonymous with OpenStack so I thought maybe Kamesh could take this it's interesting the first question you have to ask yourself is who are you marketing to traditionally because we're an OpenStack company we do OpenStack we kind of get directed to the infrastructure guys so these are the guys that want to build an AWS like thing internally so we kind of get directed to them but what happens is it ends up becoming an island cloud like I was mentioning earlier you need an anchor tenant so there's another personality another kind of user persona that is very important which is who is using the cloud it's the application owner the application guys that are actually going to be using the cloud so that's the second persona and of course the most important persona is the person who's going to pay the bills the level guys the CEOs the CEOs our message is liberalization of your business are you under threat are you going to be disrupted so you have do you know that software is eating the economy can you make your software can you build software so you can stay out of the competition that's the CEO message CIO is about agility agile IT how fast are you moving are you keeping the lights on or are you actually innovating and taking care of the business you have a story for the CSO too because it's an internal cloud so you can tell the CSO can tell the story of security compliance regulatory aspects of the cloud so there's a story to tell the CSO and CFO by the way actually private clouds are cheaper I can assure you this we have done TCO analysis of OpenStack versus VMware AWS the usual suspects and it turns out it is cheaper you can come to a website take a look at our TCO story but there's a story for the CFO so you have a C-level audience thing then we go talk to the C-level guys we know what story to pitch but the important thing are the end users the anchor tenants how do you go convince them that they can build their software faster that's what it comes down to so CI CD continuous integration continuous deployment using tools such as Morano for application catalogs Sahara for big data analytics you got to tell them hey, this is going to make your life easier it's not just asking for a VM but it's getting entire development environments for you to get up and running very quickly and pushing your code into production very quickly that's an important story back to the infrastructure guy we want to make him the hero we want him to tell his company that he is innovating he's the hero and he's not the one keeping the lights on so you have to know who you're talking to we have messages for all three IT is kind of the key item because that's a key use case in OpenStack development test is a key use case so we go after that first you remind me you're reminding me as you're talking about these different personas there's another persona that you don't want to meet at all costs it's the purchasing manager can I have a show of hands for how many people work for a software vendor company in this room some, a good chunk so an early mentor always said if you can up level the conversation through any of the things that you'd mentioned Kamesh if you can up level that conversation to the C-suite to the strategic problems facing the business then you get to keep talking to that guy until he signs something or until she signs something but if you start having this nuts and bolts conversation then you get sent to the purchasing manager who is now in charge of negotiating the smallest possible amount of money and you are no longer having a strategic business conversation so I feel like a lot of your external marketing strategy really needs to be about speaking higher on the food chain in a company and that's definitely something that in the OpenStack foundation we've taken a heart in our content marketing thinking about how can we speak more to CIOs to the IT infrastructure I will say one thing though so you can go to the C-suite I mean if you have the right contacts you can get to the CIO level but guess what happens at the C-suite level everybody the Accentures of the world the Oracles of the world the VMware's of the world is telling them the same story they're saying hey we're going to cut your cost by 30% you're going to be faster by 5x oh McKinsey said you'll get 4x the productivity okay well how are you guys different how are you going to actually make it happen to us so then we have to come back and then it comes back to the okay OpenStack can do it for you we are the experts we understand we are contributing et cetera et cetera it doesn't take very long if they're convinced the problem is you can't differentiate yourself at the C-level because everybody's telling them the same story I think the one thing I was going to maybe roll back to something you mentioned earlier Kamesh because I kind of agree with you but coming from a customer there's some parts of it when you talked about you know like when you position OpenStack and AWS as a customer you know I'm just going to be honest that you know if I push OpenStack without really looking at my business I'm going to fail and that's just something I'm going to warn you as users because you know I've been enough around the cloud and I'll be right as well I'm maturing and understanding like public versus private and where it's at you know so you know as far as like trying to market you know like to like and obviously I'm coming from more of like a you know a certain level where I'm in between operators in between like a lot of the business side of it but what really resonates and I think that really that I found that was helpful was like you know like Marantz for example really focused on like the unlocked aspect like the open source aspect like those are really powerful things that I think that speak to us and I'm seeing more and more of it in my community where a long time a lot of people talked about open source but now actually I'm seeing that on the C level they're understanding it and they want to make sure like hey are we vendor lock like what are we choosing as our technology where is this going is this going to allow us to be able to continually innovate as technology changes and so you know like I said there's a balance that I strike So one thing I just want to add to that how many of you are IT infrastructure folks in this room? Guys that run IT infrastructure so when we go to the CIO we get pushed down to you guys and when we come to you guys and we say look you know we know how to make that business case so you can go sell this to your own management internally and we have you know metrics and KPIs and ways in which you can tell the story and what strategies make sense what metrics you need to put in place so you can actually track your progress and that's what's very important at the end of the day your CEO or CIO might give you a million dollar check and you might go do something and after six months he'll come back and say show me what you've done what has changed since I paid all this money are you able to develop faster if so show me the proof are you able to get infrastructure lower cost show me the proof so if you don't have that then it's a dead cost you know it's not going to get funded further think of it as a startup and you're asking for venture capital that's the way to think about it one of the other things that Joe said kind of struck me too is some of the more tactical stuff that we've done at Juniper that's really partnered good success for us one is understanding this community right one of the things that we've done with some of our products at Juniper especially our neutron implementation and our software defined networking solution called control networking is we open sourced it as open control and that gets you a lot of rapport with open source people to have an open sourced product and Juniper is doing not just that but tons of other stuff on our github which is wonderful but other things that we've done tactically to leverage these open source communities is to actually understand the points that Joe and these guys have made is to go and sit in a meetup there's so many open stack meetups there's so many open stack events around the world I mean we have two a year of these summits but there's many many many events and so many meetups marketers are always so curious to try to go and understand their customers saying oh can I come in this customer meeting and so forth to try to really know the customer well in an open source community gosh it's easier than ever before so take advantage of all of those channels alright so let's go to our last question if you will advance society joy so product marketing and product so how can you integrate open stack into the business and the product cycle I'll take a stab at this one first because I know that I have a story with this one at Juniper Networks so at Juniper open stack is a tangential thing for us we're a pure play high performance networking and security company and we've always been a software company but we weren't always a software business and there's a huge difference there so the story kind of ends up with me sitting in the chair here but if you could rewind about five years my story with open stack at least starts with one of my buddies at work giving me an open stack sticker to put on my laptop because I was kind of famous in the office we're having a massive collection of stickers on my laptop and I always say I love open source software I have a long developer history so I went and looked into open stack I started going to I live in the Bay Area so there's tons of meetups there I started going to meetups and playing around with it and getting my hands dirty and I started telling people at Juniper about open stack and a few years ago when I went into the marketing organization I encountered a lot of resistance for some reason around open stack and rightfully so we had a very strong partnership somewhere is very important for our business it's meeting customers where they are today and so forth and Juniper has a lot of networking integrations with their stack but they saw open stack as something totally competitive to it and there's a lot of fud that especially then has been thrown around with open stack saying that it's not mature it's not ready for production why are we going to go and spend a lot of dollars on this and at the same time that's just when Juniper has done the contrail systems acquisition in open source to open contrail and that business and product team knew the importance of it but really it's been a journey and I think the takeaway of my whole experience is this that you need to be diligent at looking at how you can integrate open stack into all facets of the business and the more you can do that quickly and influence some of the values of how to do this with all these other tactics and strategies we've been sharing today like talking about the value of hybrid cloud, talking about the value of so many things if you can weave it into the services organization the disruption and the fact that open stack is not really ready for production a few years ago well flip it on its head turn it into an opportunity actually that's one of the things Jonathan Brice said that I like to today use disruption as an opportunity instead of a challenge there's a massive services opportunity if this thing isn't that easy support, same thing another journey for Juniper has been pricing software pricing right how do you go from selling boxes to automation and software automation is not a box software has to be priced differently so that's something to think about early on and weave that into your product business cycle as well and then finally sort of like training the sales force and your channel partners and so forth on open stack and the value of cloud has been definitely a journey as well going from a networking company now the pillars of IT are converging in solutions like cloud people can't just sell and come in and have networking conversations anymore sales force has to be able to have cloud level conversations or agility level conversations even so all of that stuff is actually goodness it's an opportunity for transformation and an opportunity for growth and faster that your company can do it faster than another company you'll win business obviously and you'll become trusted advisors one of the side effects of all of this that I'll share as well before I finish is that I think that partaking in open stack in the open source community has actually infused and imbued into Juniper a lot of innovation Juniper is already a culture of innovation but partaking in open source projects actually kind of marries that spirit back into your own company and that was a very joyous side effect of it well just to do a time check we've 10 minutes left in the panel I'm going to give up my microphone put it just over here so if you'd like to ask a question ask it here or ask us and we'll repeat it but perhaps if either of you gentlemen wanted to comment on product marketing I'll go give away this well it's a little bit being a user it's a little slightly different but I would just say one advice I would give just for like internal users in regards to like how you work with open stack and what I found to be a successful strategy is we focus more on like building internal platforms and open stack becomes part of that internal product for us and out of all my learnings I realize that especially as there's so much disruption happening that it's important to kind of do that you know that it gives you a little bit of agility we found that not only with open stack but we've been really firm believers and just open source in general like bringing a lot of these systems together allowing them to glue you know these pipelines and patterns that we follow but the key thing for us is that we realize that instead of like focusing so much on the technology just focus on the platform I want to just add a couple of questions I think the question that the first question that needs to be asked is why do you want to integrate open stack into your product that's the first question and and at open stack this is all our business so I can kind of relate to the experience I had at Dell before I came to Marantis I was at Dell and there it was all about leveraging the upstream innovation as James was saying earlier can you have 2000 developers do the same kind of technology development that open stack community is doing obviously the answer is no you can't really innovate at the same pace but you can take the innovation and absorb it into your product and make it more valuable and bring faster innovation to your customers so that's the way we kind of looked at it when we started doing that right back in the Dell days so we kind of took that and integrated into the Dell hardware and networking systems and brought a solution to market very quickly and customers could immediately see the value you know here's a cloud that's completely integrated end to end and it's actually giving us all innovation that's coming from the open stack community so that's one way to think about it so to answer why and then look at how I've heard a lot about different techniques for marketing for example content marketing which is big that was phenomenal I want to know if you guys have done have figured out any pure marketing techniques one of the most successful things that I saw in my experience is when you have a group of people who maybe C-levels C-sweets or even technology directors who speak to each other you kind of touched on it when you talked about I think one of you touched on the panel when you talked about actually going to the user groups and talking directly with them but how have you how have you done that who has done that type of marketing and how successful has it been to help you try and develop business I can answer that so one of the so the meetups are great they're user meetups all over the world they tend to be more technically focused right I mean folks that are actually using OpenStack people that are contributing to OpenStack so they tend to be very technically focused but you want to get to the C-level folks one one thing that has worked well for us at Mirantis is we've done CIO breakfast roundtables right so we bring CIOs of companies together and it's not really it's more of a hey share best practices what have you learned implementing cloud it's not even OpenStack okay you're trying to do transform your business you're trying to go build these cloud systems and you're getting disrupted or wanting to disrupt how are you doing it share your best practices and we kind of facilitate that and bring these CIOs and CTOs and VPs of infrastructure I think that's a good way of doing it you need to have some third party to kind of facilitate it because you can't do it as a vendor so you can bring an analyst or you know some third party VC firm or somebody that can kind of pull these people together you can kind of do a financial services focus thing if you're out in New York or you want to focus on a certain area or vertical you can kind of pull all those people together and have this discussion and there you have a lot of great exchange of ideas I would add to that that make your customers the hero when you're thinking about this CIO making a decision about OpenStack or about a specific vendor that person's betting their career they're putting a lot on the line in order to choose that so help them be a hero by doing that after marketing the thing that happens after the sale is done where you're actually working with a customer to develop their proof points to develop their case study at a previous company I even had the surfing company Rip Curl develop a video about using our product which was awesome but that was their way of basically showing that they make a good choice and so if you can make your customer a hero, make your CIO a hero not only internally for their constituents but among their peers you're helping to advance their career and kind of who knows about them I'll just add maybe this is stating the obvious but like open source community again kind of recapitulating what I said the marketing channels are really multiplied more than ever before it's not just the meetups the social networking channels the Slack channels, the mailing lists if you're so inclined you can go and leverage so much information at your disposal now that you never had before and that's really awesome and it's not just OpenStack there's so many tangential projects like for example Juniper Network Shoes the whole NFV movement how many technologies are open source in that area tons so whatever your business is look for those open source communities besides OpenStack as well and try to leverage those back to your point about the uber economy and the whole point of instant gratification how have you dealt with instant gratification of let's say an Amazon or Azure versus OpenStack it doesn't happen you do a credit card besides a long term ROI which is obviously the thing you want to try to sell to how you deal with that instant gratification problem of public versus private I think from a marketing perspective one of the things to remember is that people love control use that to your advantage and also people are scared of stuff private cloud is more secure it's just kind of a given I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that as a technologist but from a marketer's shoes you can definitely get a lot of mileage out of that so another question to ask yourself instant gratification is you can go to AWS and get a lot of stuff done but if your business depends on the use case that you are delivering to your users you can put it on AWS for a variety of reasons compliance, security, performance, agility all kinds of stuff so even if you don't get the instant gratification look at it from a longer term perspective if your business is writing on this then you may take on a little more few more minutes of time to get the resources you need but my point is you can't get the same agility internally the problem is not the technology and the skill set I think the argument that always comes back when you present something like that to a customer they present the chaos monkey example and show that other businesses have made surviving on public cloud with core business functionality and processes happen so thank you for your take we have time for just one more question I've got to ask you with Dell Services talk more about that one issue that Boris spoke of this morning which is the operational and cultural challenges when you're trying to sell a solution or a product that's not typically present or transparent to a particular sales opportunity is it a challenge or do you not talk about it I think you got to talk about it right I mean from our company's perspective we actually relish in the opportunity that there's more than just us selling a product and walking away AT&T is one of our big customers and you can see the transformation story that they told this morning for us we look at that opportunistically as an opportunity to co-create with our customer and as long as you look at it with that kind of positive lens I was going to say one thing I would probably assert just being on this open stack journey as a user and I think may resonate is that it's probably been one of the biggest enablers of DevOps transformation for the organization I've been with in both places that I've done this journey and I think that's pretty powerful a lot of the stuff because I've also consumed public cloud since 2008 and a lot of the lessons learned it was kind of learning things the hard way it's the stuff that you don't really hear being very transparent about where things work and not work in public cloud or in private cloud and it's a part that people just don't hear about when they do make this journey to AWS so for me as a user I would say that's probably one of the most powerful things about it I'll just make one last point before we end up here so the main question the biggest challenge is really do you have the ops team in order to run the cloud internally this is the first question software is great, software works your stack has matured now nobody's asking that question anymore once you have it running can you keep it up and running can you take care of life cycle management can you upgrade, can you update, can you patch can you roll back can you make sure that you've got your SLA 99.99% up and running this is what AWS does behind the scenes they have all these experts running around fixing the stuff while you're using it you have to do the same thing internally that's what it comes down to so it's skills operational experience, scale there are not easily available out there so that's a challenge there are companies that help with that you can certainly avail yourself of that or build your own team thank you folks very much for joining us that's all we have tonight thank you