 Hello. Thank you for being on time. Let's give applause to all of us for the next session. The next session will be sub-planaried people's voice. This session brings together non-state actors. This group plays very important roles, both in raising people's voice and also in interest and in sharing their experience, ranging from grassroots issues to debates in international fora. A sustainability agenda may be able to bridge the development and conservation gap in regard to blue-carbon ecosystem, which span coastal zones through to the open ocean, including marine protected areas. While keeping a keen eye on a practical aspect, panel members will cover the governance and international challenges around mainstreaming blue-carbon at national and global levels. And this sub-planaried people's voice event will be moderated by Mr. Jatna Supriyatna, Research Centre for Climate Change University of Indonesia. To Mr. Jatna Supriyatna, please welcome. Good morning. Selamat pagi, Pepa Ibu sekalian. Selamalaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. We have one and a half hours. We're going to discuss about the civil society involvement on the blue-carbon. So I'd like to call Pak Ketut Sarjana Putra from Conservation International. By the way, where's Pak Alan? Alan Karubitan? Oh, okay. Second speaker, Pak Dizal Gamar. Algamar from TNC, the Nature Conservancy. Mr. Noman Surya Diputra, and Mr. Martin Hatidi-Hadi Winata. Mr. Martin has not arrived yet, but hopefully that is coming soon. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to welcome this very important civil society movement in NGO, international NGO, three of them. And one more, Martin, unfortunately, has not arrived yet, is the local NGOs. So we have one and a half, maybe, our discussion, a national NGO based in Washington. Of course, he has the chair or the chairman of the Nature Conservancy Indonesia. By the way, today is his birthday. So let's have a round of applause for him. So that's a surprise because I just read it and wow, it's today. This is a surprise for us. And then the third one of course, Pak Noman Surya Diputra. I believe he has been more than 15, 20 years, maybe in the wetland international. So the three are very important because what we are really looking for is the activities. They have been doing this for the last at least more than 10 years. How that really the blue carbon thing from their perspective. Of course, that can be really easy from scientists' perspective, but they are the one that doing daily activities, conserving, also how that really the blue carbon it would in Indonesia especially. So I'm going to start with Pak Tut. Please Pak Tut, do you want to have something to say? Or your activity basically in the CI? Thank you. Thank you, Pak Yatna Supriyatna, Pak Prof, Chairman. For this very delighted opportunity to be sitting here to share our experience dealing with the blue carbon. Thank you Fusi for IP and other organizing committee to invite us to be able to participate in this very important event to contribute a little bit the learning that we have from the field addressing the blue carbon in Indonesia. I don't know where to start with actually, but I would like to really share what we have been doing with regard to the blue carbon ecosystem in Indonesia. So I would like to now, for example, the blue carbon context was in Canada for a long time already, at least in our organization in conservation international. So about like 12 years ago when we start our marine conservation, for example, addressing the NPA system in Indonesia, we start to bring the ideas within the ground in Indonesia which is in the bird that is kept in West Papua. So in the beginning we learned actually the blue carbon is the kind of the magic word that we have discussing in this kind of forum actually. But in the ground we don't use that term. It's because our community is going to confuse with those kinds of magic and iconic words. But we rather use, for example, how we can better concept mangrove sensei grass in order to secure the ecological functions of that ecosystem for them. So when we went through the West Papua from Raja Ampat, Kaimana, Vag-Vag regions, and also Manukwari, we found that it's huge as mangrove ecosystem and also sea grass. But the challenge was huge on the ground. We learned from the blue carbon science, for example, we're going to use the science to really count about how much carbon is going to be able to sequester it from this kind of very, very charismatic species of this ecosystem. But in the field actually what is really needed by our communities is how they are really telling about how to conserve that ecosystem. And the other telling is actually sometimes it's hard to communicate what does really the benefits of that mangrove ecosystem and sea grass to their own economy. It's because communities are looking for that actually with their own daily life. So then in conservation international, then from that I cannot thinking and also understanding the local context and we try to really framing our program in strategy to how can we really address or design a strategy that will be able us to conserve that ecosystem. So we use then the first one is going to be the governance. In terms of the governance is because we really want that the mangrove, the sea grass, is not going to become a kind of a common tragedy. Because we want the ecosystem to be well managed to have really a body and the active management body that will really manage that ecosystem. And then we start using that kind of the existing load that we have. For example, the Indonesian term, Kawasan konservasi laut, which is a marine protected area system. And we were lucky enough when we first interact with the local government, which is a Kaimana, for those who don't know Kaimana. Kaimana is a certain part of Regency of West Papua province actually. So when you find a very iconic mangrove ecosystem. So when we first met with the Bupati, we were really struck by his really, you know, understanding Pakatut. Our mangrove is the core that really hosts and home for so many species of fish that produce our fish here in the districts. What we can do. So as an NGO, at the time we interact with the local communities, with the government, really like, wow, this is really a kind of a moment that we were waiting for. And because he invited us for diving and understanding better, it's not just about the mangrove areas, but also the areas, the reef system within the Kaimana, and also in Lithuania and Brajampa. We think that the best reef system that we have is because the mangrove is still healthy there. So then we then walk with the government and local communities to design, why don't we really protect the entire this mangrove system, and include it in being part of this marine protected area system. So then the local government lead this initiative, and then now being put within, as a core part, within the marine protected areas in Kaimana. So 85,000 hectare of that mangrove is now being part of the MPA system. But this is only one of the elements. And then we're still struggling with the communities, because communities seem, what does it mean for us by protecting mangrove and putting the MPA system? What does it mean for us? So we then use, actually, improve our communication and trying to understand and use the local language and the common language that looking at what are the tangible benefits that the community can get from protecting that mangrove system. So then we learn, we understand from the science, for example, the mangrove crabs, they use almost 80% of the mangrove ecosystem in seagrass with part of the life cycle. So we use then the fact that, for example, the strategy protecting the mangroves generating income. So by protecting mangrove more, and the communities will get more mangrove crabs. So then we use this kind of ideas to communicate together that by the communities protecting that mangrove, it's going to be more mangrove crabs that are going to be produced by the healthy mangrove system. So then we also use the fisheries element. This is a kind of ideas that we have been using now. By doing that kind of approach, the local governments and communities is now getting more understanding that they protect the blue carbon ecosystem because they believe that protecting the system is going to produce more fisheries. So like Daniel mentioned earlier, that talking blue carbon is not just about protecting the mangroves, but also trying to understand better the role of that blue carbon ecosystem and supporting the kind of economy. So then in our conservation international program, we also try to understand about how much is the carbon sequestration capacity of that mangrove system. So we now learn about this kind of science element and trying to understand better. And we think that perhaps by protecting the entire mangrove in Kaimana, maybe equivalent to, for example, like maybe more than 20 million cars per year. So by protecting this, it means that we are avoiding the emission from the 20 million car every single year. So this is kind of the ecosystem about the conservation effort by protecting the ecosystem. But we don't yet have a kind of good information at the moment about how much fish is going to be produced by a healthy mangrove system. So this is kind of the next step that we really want to showcase. Even though a lot of science already, a lot of library, a lot of information already available, which is very good, we can use that. But the communities are also looking at the right example from within their own neighboring ecosystem like this. So this is kind of the science elements still need to be done on the ground in order to really improve our understanding about the role of the mangrove system on the economic aspects. I'll stop that part at the moment. And also I would like to give time for other presenters. Thank you. Thank you, Paketut. Let's go for a poll. The second speaker will be Rizal. Thank you. Yeah, I have a couple of slides that I'd like to show, but I don't know if it's going to be... Anyway, in the Nature Conservancy, we have been in the initiative for 27 years. And in the past, most of our work is that we are leading the work, meaning that doing most of the things that we do, we do it on our own. And we learn a lot from those processes, working with and... Please, five initiatives that we're doing currently. I think Paketut has mentioned the work in West Park. We are also working there together with CI. But I'd like to touch on seaweed aquaculture, you know, growing up 10 to 20 years. The growth of seaweed will grow exponentially. And the mangrove ecosystem is going to be impacted heavily by the growth of seaweed aquaculture, especially in Kalimantan and Papua. The 70% of the loss of mangrove in the next 20 to 25 years is going to happen in these two areas. So when you address seaweed aquaculture, you cannot talk about the mangrove ecosystem with the communities. Because they need the livelihood, and we need to find ways on how we can involve the communities to help protect the ecosystem. So we are embarking on a different strategy that is to help grow the seaweed aquaculture into a sustainable path. That's our way of doing things and convince those communities that mangrove ecosystem is very important to help their businesses to be sustainable. So one of the challenges, the big challenges of seaweed aquaculture is that communities use the mangrove woods. They cut it down and they use it as pulling to tie the lines to hang their seaweeds. And sea grasses is also being impacted. In some places in eastern Indonesia, they pull out sea grasses so that it doesn't compete with the seaweed aquaculture. So those are the impact that's going on in Indonesia. And if you can imagine if there are millions of seaweed farmers across Indonesia, what kind of impact that will happen across Indonesia to mangrove ecosystem? So right now we are demonstrating sustainability in ten villages in eastern Indonesia, mainly in the area of Kupang and the islands, on how farmers can do seaweed aquaculture sustainably. And it does not conflict with tourism, it does not create pressure to mangrove ecosystem and sea grass and so forth. That's the first one. The second part is that we are planning to launch, actually next week, mangrove ecosystem restoration alliance. It's a national platform that we created and we want to plan to do mangrove protections and restoration across Indonesia. Of course, we cannot do this alone. We need to have a few demonstration sites that we will do in Jakarta area, in East Kalimantan, as well as in eastern part of Indonesia. Now this alliance, as I said, our strategy is to embark, work with and through partners to be able to scale up, we need those partnerships. We are very strong in the science and we are able to provide them with tools and experts, but somebody needs to help us to do the implementation on the ground. So our target is by 2022, is to identify and start protecting and restoring about 500,000 hectares of mangroves across Indonesia. And right now we are happy that there are already 10 partnership established. We hope that we can generate more partnership along the ways to pursue this restoration initiative. The third initiative that we are already doing is mapping ocean wealth. It's a global initiative by TANC. We are also doing it in collaboration with IPB. It's to map coral reefs and coastal ecosystem throughout Indonesia. It's an ongoing process. I think this is a critical component of our work that we need to understand where are the critical ecosystem, where are the most threats to this ecosystem. And this will determine our investment on where to do protections and where to do restorations and where to do livelihood for communities. So it's an ongoing process. It's going to be available for public as well, those data of mapping ocean wealth. Not just for Indonesia, but globally that TANC is doing. I think another initiative that we are doing is on fisheries. When you talk about fisheries, the context is on sustainability and traceability. Indonesia's 75% is water, 25% is land. And when you talk about fisheries, we don't have data about how much stocks do we have in Indonesia's oceans. And over the last three years, we have been embarking on a massive data collection to understand on the stock of the fish across Indonesia. Mainly we are working in two fisheries management area, and we are working in two type of fisheries in snapper and grouper, as well as in tuna. Because these are the most the major market demands within Indonesia as well as in export markets. And we're helping to create a system of how we can measure the stocks of the fish efficiently and effectively. And we've even embarked to develop a platform, a software, we call it FishFace. It's official recognition software for fish. So that previously people, when they take data, they identified manually. And it takes time, all of them is doing by pencil and papers. After that, they just throw it away. But now you have a system where you can capture the picture of the fish and automatically identify the type of the fish, the size of the fish, as well as the location where the fish is being caught. And those systems help us to identify how healthy is those, the stock of the fish in a particular ecosystem. And this data is being transmitted to the ministry so that they are able to make decision on the next steps of whether or not to stop certain kind of fish to be fished now. Those are the things that we are doing right now. It's a massive work. A lot of data needs to be collected in Indonesia. It's a data poor country. It's in the process of building those data. And I think we all need to support those initiatives to help secure those data so that people, not just the governments, but businesses, communities and make informed decisions on how to go forward either to secure the economic activities, but at the same time we need those data to do protection and restoration of the coastal ecosystem. So I'll leave it for that for now, Pa. Thank you. Thank you, Pa Yatna. So first of all, I would like to thank all participants. I'm very happy to be here. Maybe I should inform you what is my background, actually. I was graduated from the Faculty of Fishery in the early 1980s. Maybe I would like to share with you what's really happening with our mangrove ecosystems. So in the 70s, actually, when the shrimp booming happening in Asian countries, including Indonesia, a lot of the mangrove have been converted into shrimp pond. So now we have about 3.2 million hectares of mangrove remaining, which is all recently mapped under the one-map policy, where wetland international is a member of the one-map policy. So I would like to share with you regarding what is really the mangrove ecosystem conditions in Indonesia. Maybe in the past, people are always thinking that mangrove is something associated with the mineral soil. So recently, we discovered, actually, mangrove in most of the coastal areas of Sumatra and also in Papua, they are actually associated with the pitland. So what I would like to raise here, in the past, during the shrimp booming, a lot of mangrove have been converted and then converted into a fish pond, into shrimp ponds, and then the shrimp were hit by what we call the white spot of final disease. And then, what happened? The shrimp production collapsed and then it was neglected, abandoned, and as a result, because mangrove already disappeared, and then now we are suffering below this kind of eroded coastline, which used to be a mangrove forest. But what is the next challenge currently we are facing? It is the one where mangrove is associated with pitland. See for finding, regarding the carbon stored in the mangrove, let's say about 1,023 tonne carbon per hectare, where 80% of the carbon, actually, located underneath of the mangrove forest. But what if beneath the mangrove is a pitland? So this is very interesting from the carbon point of view. Because if we map the mangrove distribution in Papua, actually, underneath the mangrove is a pit and also in the east coast. So currently the pitland itself actually facing a big problem with the confessions into the oil palm. So in one side, the oil palm will drain the water from the pit and at the same time also remove the mangrove forest. So what I worry about very much, not only about the blue carbon, because if it is underneath, it's a pit, can I say it's a combination with the blue carbon with the brown carbon. So I leave it with you to decide what is the term. But anyway, this is a very big challenge. That's the situation. But anyway, I would like to share with you what we have been doing related with the mangrove restorations which we already started in the mid-90s. We were started in central Java where the coastline already eroded one of the village almost disappeared. So at the time I went to the field and they talked with the people, shall we protect your village and what they said? No, thank you. I don't have time. Give me job. I can help solve the problem. And I was so disappointed because we would like to help them to restore the mangrove and I changed my mind. So what if I come to the village and I bring money with you? Would you be interested to have money? It was in the gathering place in the village and everyone raised their hand. Of course I need money. And then I asked. So if you borrow money from the bank, what should you do? Well, I have to have a collateral. But we don't have it because we are poor people. Okay, what if I lend you money with a collateral? Would you be interested with that? Everyone raising hand. Yeah, why not? So then if you borrow the money from the bank, what should you do? I should pay the interest rate. What if I will not charge you with the interest rate? Will you be interested? Wow, this is surprising. So then we listed how many in the group, I mean in the gathering place interested to borrow money from us. At the time I received a small grant from the donors. I have a few money in my pocket. So then I asked, how much money would you like to borrow? Okay, I would like to borrow 10 million rupiah. At the other, I make a list on the white board and then I would like to borrow 5 million. And then I asked, okay, to pay the collateral, may I ask you to plan mangrove? If you borrow 10 million rupiah, so how much interest would you like to plan? So I put everything on the table so then I come up with the conclusion. Well, those guys would like to borrow much money but would like to plan a little mangrove. I will prefer to borrow the money for those people who would like to borrow less money but plan more. I cannot do that. I have to do the average. The total amount of money will be borrowed and the total of trees will be planted. So that was the start. My back-end share here, also with Marcel, my friend here, that's the start of the buy-right theory. We call it the conditional grant that applied to the community. Yeah? So then the community agreed, okay, if they would like to borrow a certain amount of money, they have to plan so much trees. But in return, they have to maintain the trees because they don't pay the interest rate. So we make a contractual agreement for five years. Yeah? If more than 75% of the mangrove can be survived, so we turn the loan into a grant. And they were surprising. That's very interesting because no collateral, no interest rate. So at the end, we wanted more than 75%. Survive? Why? If they survive less than 75%, they have to pay the penalty. So then the history, and then we moved to Acheh after the tsunami, we tried to follow this kind of mechanism instead of using the cash for works. Because I remember in Acheh, I mean in 2005, four, five years, a lot of donors coming in with money, and then they applied the cash for works. They pay people to plant mangrove. You know what happened? I was in the field. There was no space left to plant mangrove. It was quite tricky. They removed the seedlings, they planted, and then they take another one, they planted, and then they took the pictures. Give it to the donor. The donor was quite heavy. That's not the way how we work. That's not really educating the people. So we applied the same concept that we established in Central Java, what we call it the conditional loan. So then we moved to Acheh. It was very interesting because until today, if we check the certain images, you can see some part of the area which was degraded during the tsunami, and now it looks very green. And then we moved to Flores, and then we moved to Gorontalo and also in Bundon, elsewhere in Indonesia. It was very interesting. So back to the issues of blue carbon. So I would like to propose something quite different. What it is, it is how to actually restore the degraded ponds. Because roughly I can come up with more than 3 million hectares of the mangrove habitats already converted into fish ponds. Actually they have stored a lot of carbon. We did some kind of pilot project not far from here. It is in Bundon Bay. The project located behind the conservation areas where it was converted into fish ponds, and then in front of the wildlife reserve, the Chagar Alampulo Dua, the area severely degraded because of the very strong current. So what we did? So we trapped the city bed in front of the reserve using a very simple technology. We were using floating old fish nets. So we stretched the nets in front of the urban area. And then behind is the natural reserve, the mangrove reserve. It is only 30 hectares area, but very rich with the migratory water goods. So you know what happened? During the high tide the seawater bring a lot of sediment towards inland. And then during the low tide the water from inland will be went into the sea and bring a lot of debris. The leaves, the sediment or whatever and then the leaves actually clogging the fish net. And then all the sediment actually being trapped. And at the same time thousands of the mangrove sea lakes coming from the reserve area, it was stranded in front of the net. So now we are having extended area of the reserve. And then we sent one of the student from the IPB. She did some research, it was very interesting. And in one hectare of the new habitat of the group in the trap we found at least 50 tons of carbon per year. For hectare 50 tons of carbon per hectare just within 3 months. Actually the sediments transported from the river nearby the area and also from the sea. It was trapped it settled huge amount of carbon. So now the trees itself it only less than 40 tons of hectare. Sorry I repeat it again. So one hectare it can trap 130 tons of carbon in 3 months while above ground it is only 40 tons. So 3 times more. So what does it mean? And we can map actually the eroded part of Indonesia along the coastline and then we apply quite similar technology by trapping the sediment actually trapping the carbon. So that one concept. The second concept because lot of the fish pond being abandoned. So the fish pond actually there's so much amount of carbon. Where the carbon coming from? They're coming during aquaculture practices either from the food for the fishes and also from the pellets, the artificial food and also from the faces and also carbon coming in from the water whatever. So actually the fish pond which is currently being abandoned in most of the coastal areas of Indonesia they are storing huge amount of carbon. But how to make sure this carbon in the fish pond can be maintained not to be washed away. So may I propose during this presentation discussion that I would like to propose the carbon actually to issuing a new policy on how to provide incentive to those abandoned fish pond. Make use of this abandoned fish pond as a carbon trapping. But how to do that? May be through the incentive. Garment can provide it a discount for the PBB Pajak, Bumi and Bangunan is a tax land tax. Because currently even though the fish pond is abandoned but the owner still have to pay tax. But if we can ask the owner to plan mangrove what we call it a silver fishing to plan along the pond dikes and also in the middle of the abandoned fish pond that means we will store so much amount of carbon. It is not only from the above ground. Because the above ground carbon from the mangrove it is not very much. Let's say maximum may be only 200 ton. That's for the mature or adult mangrove. But the below ground is much higher which is already proven by the scientific results. So that's all for the moment. Thank you very much. Thank you Pak Nyoman. So ladies and gentlemen we have just introduction on what is the blue carbon and what their activities. Pak Etude mentioned what there are five things that has been done on this blue carbon. Science fisheries communities marine break areas and there has been many activities by conservation international. Similarly Parizal they also talking about a lot of new initiative. I think this NGO, Civil Society has already developed this model such as Parizal mentioned about this sustainability traceability all to the fisheries tuna and also the protection. That's very important and both of them, three of them are working on the mineral protection. Pak Nyoman has been really elaborate this effort on how do we develop this protection using the trap so that was really interesting to see that. So ladies and gentlemen before we are going to give the time for you guys to request but I have a kind of question to three of this. First of all that how do we channel this, your experience three of them to become a policy. Pak Nyoman mentioned about that how that really the finding of your activities into the policy because sometimes yes your activity is the pilot in several spots but how do we make sure that the policy of government. So let's start with Pak Nyoman and then we go back to here. Okay, thank you. It is very interesting question how to actually make sure the policy support our conservation of the blue carbon. So actually I should say the green belt policy actually the Indonesian government already established what we call it Fumsi Kawasan Linnokia it is under the presidential decree it was issued in 1990 so in that decree it was stated the white of the green belt it is 130 multiplied by the differences of the tide. If you had the tide differences let's say two meters so two meters time 130 meter must be protected as a green belt but two years ago our president Jokowi has revised that kind of policy so now the green belt white it is actually minimum 100 meter from the highest tide toward inland minimum. So what does it mean with this policy if you go to Papua either to West Papua or to Papua where the mangrove so thick so if you are using the first policy that 130 multiplied by the difference of tide there are a lot of the mangrove I mean becoming susceptible for cutting because each areas in Indonesia the mangrove white is very different one to the other the one issue. Currently we are working now in the mark and also in Bandan. So the Bandan it is very interesting but because the local government would like to establish what we call it a water front city so we are negotiating instead of 100 meter having a green belt we try to convince the parliament and also the government how to extend the green belt. This is interesting but anyway as I mentioned earlier I would like to propose actually for those degraded or abandoned fish pond which stores huge amount of carbon because the current practices actually you know what happened in the fish pond area they will remove the sediment that locally known as Keduk Teplok. What does it mean Keduk Teplok? is to remove the sediment so this sediment is a very rich carbon and then they remove the sediment and then they pile up along the dike so what does it mean? So if the sediment is removed and put along the dike so it will be oxidized so the carbon dioxide will be emitted to the atmosphere but if the sediment stay in the own bed so that means the organic matter will not be disturbed and if at the same time it planted the mangrove that means we are not only gaining the carbon from the above ground but it is also from the reserve sediment so that means as I mentioned earlier so how to do that to convince the local government that people who own that pond a kind of incentive might be reduction of the tax land tax so that's one issue. The second issue it is related also with the policy related also with the conservation areas or maybe as I mentioned earlier we now establish an expansion of the Kulodua wildlife reserve and we were able now to extend the area but when I discuss with the local government can we extend the area of the wildlife reserve of Kulodua and the local government said no cannot because the wildlife reserve area it is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Environment and Forestry but outside that boundary it is under the jurisdiction of the local government so then I asked well but if both sides might be correct but my perception if we can extend the wildlife reserve that means actually we will have more in terms of the conservation status of the area because if the local government would like to take it over so we don't know what will be the future fate of the area so that is more or less but I should say also with the others. Thank you Local government don't see that the opportunities for example they always think about they don't see that the carbon is really very big things it's economically compared to others why is that for example I mentioned that well the local government see that don't see your economy how do you see that I don't think it's just the local governments you know when you talk across Indonesia from village level to national ministries I think there are still lacking of knowledge and capacities to understand that part so I think to be able to change the paradigm the situation we need transformational change I think I can show my pocket that can add as well that for example on marine protected areas when we embark on this initiative 10 years ago there are nothing in Indonesia so the coalitions of NGOs even there are a few of them here we start to work together when you build that coalitions you are much stronger and you are much able to do advocacy and demonstrate to science from that you see a lot of policies has been issued for marine protected areas and there are commitment from the governments, previous governments 20 million hectares of MPA this time we are going to go above that to 30 million hectares of marine protected areas so we need to have that coalitions of partners so in the land side as well but we are doing the same thing building coalitions so when you have a lot of voice not just from the NGO sectors but from the communities indigenous people businesses when you embark on a shared agenda then you are starting to make fractions to change so we have been here for 27 years and I think most of the people would agree when you talk to people on the grounds either it is communities, businesses, governments when you talk about conservation it's not their interest it's not their forte we need to talk to them about economic language business language why is this important not just now but for the future how can this create jobs how can this create more tax revenues for the governments this is the language that we need to change us NGOs need to change this language we are using too many conservation terms that nobody else understand frankly speaking because I'm from the business sectors I'm not a conservationist I came from the bank most of my time I work in the private sectors I came in I had trouble to understand what are the terms what are the goals that NGOs are trying to achieve so we need to be able to quantify quantifications of the goals not just hectares but what those carbon sequestration means to the economy how much revenues does the government will take and how does that help the government to grow so those kind of things that we need to talk to the government but at the same time also deliver demonstrate that you are making change on the ground because without those change you are not able to prove that your methodologies is working yeah so both aspect needs to be done at the same time those are the experience that we've we've had and over the last five years we're changing the language on how we speak not just to communities but businesses and governments as well thank you I can see the connection we all see the connection that a country like us in Indonesia we really committed to fulfill the global commitment like for example protecting the all reducing the carbon emissions but I would like to share I just want to touch base a little bit what Pa Nyoman and Pa Arisal mentioned actually it's about the challenge by Yatna about how can we make sure that a very good science based solution in conserving the carbon ecosystem so I just want to share maybe if you all know about the Raja Ampat let me share a little bit the story why why we came up at the Raja Ampat today so if you really look at the Raja Ampat from the 14 years ago when we start in Raja Ampat is it because this is the time that 75% of the higher rip species are around there right but if you really look at how the structure of the natural capital there it's almost 90% of the forest including one groups the entire Raja Ampat are fully protected that's why we have a very clear water system that allows the coral reefs including flores in Raja Ampat so that's why in 2004 we entered the approach like a seascape which is we are looking forward where exactly the blue carbon ecosystem that we need to protect and conserve to secure those kind of ecological services for the entire Raja Ampat so we came up at more than 1.5 million hectares the entire part of Raja Ampat to become conservationist MPA system so if all the forest in Raja Ampat were not protected I don't think we can have those kind of the quality of coral reef system today so this is one of the element when I trying to link my thinking with what Paan Yom Man seeing the challenge I think our challenge in Indonesia is about our inability to internalize the externalities we fail to really put the real values about the coral ecosystem and sea grass or blue carbon ecosystem say like that it's because the current policy doesn't really yet fully recognize that value that's why we have on the ground it's always finding the challenges to convince our policy maker but I really hope within the context within the the living example that we have how we design with the government MMF, local government to design Raja Ampat today it's going to be good lesson learned how really transform these kind of approach from for example the healthy forest in the healthy oceans to become a kind of a new approach to the conservation approach to be reported as a policy national in order to fully protect the blue carbon ecosystem in Indonesia to be a kind of the engine the economic source for building the local the coastal economy so this is it's a blue economy thing there's one element but I fully believe that if Indonesia is going to be protecting the entire those ecosystem I think it's going to be a very very strong values in capital to build more blue economic in Indonesia so I'd like to address a little bit about the the initiative on restoring the abandoned shrimp farms I love to address this because this is also my own experience long time ago about 25 years ago looking at how the market was being converted in the countries so but it's good to see that now it says many initiative on the ground trying to restore it but still the challenge is about the commitment about do we really want to protect it because for example if you look at in our countries now every region would like to build another city so it's very often the blue carbon ecosystems they have nobody to protect them because it seems to me that they need help from all of us so the blue carbon summit like this it's going to be one of the avenue a moment that potentially would like to mobilize this kind of support that we really hope that we can make really integrate that values into their decision in order to secure the natural capital for Indonesia thank you ladies and gentlemen I think we still have 20 more minutes to discuss so anybody want to share a quick question or something please raise your hand the right side here one Ibu Ganjar the left side okay alright in the middle so let's we have 3 persons I would like to address my question to all 3 speakers I'm Irrati from IEP you all talk about higher conservation of higher organisms nobody talks about the tiny organisms invisible the micro organisms we call that are also working always very close together with other mangrove plants and documents are that they play a very important role they can produce bioactive compounds and that is all because they are also in the biochemical cycle of life and no higher organisms can live alone without micro organisms so do you have any intent in the future maybe to do let me say a cooperation with micro biologists to explore more about the living creatures also a role in the blue carbon cycle thank you Ibu second thank you sorry thank you so much my name is Arke I would like this is my voice I would like to challenge the definition about blue carbon to be honest blue carbon is very important and we know everything happen in the terrestrial regarding the green carbon or even the black carbon we call due to the smoke or even the the brown carbon it eventually will go to the ocean and will impact the blue carbon so blue carbon is so much important and we know the ocean is not static ocean is very dynamic and there is no problem when the definition of blue carbon it's only limit to everything related in the coastal like mangrove, fussy grass bed or whatever but I feel open ocean needs to have better intention because what happen in the ocean in the open ocean somehow give a very strong background to the dynamics of the coastal I would like to invite many of you to see my presentation in the afternoon regarding the first peer review paper on the blue carbon that is how to say published in DGR ocean and to be honest I don't have a good voice to extend the definition of blue carbon despite the fact I how to say have a SATRAPS JICA GST this big project related to blue carbon even I'm the one who make that proposal cannot have a voice to extend the definition of blue carbon and I think this blue carbon submit somehow because we are quite strong in the blue carbon community if possible to consider to include open ocean it's not to be complicated but included in the definition of blue carbon, thank you so much thank you for additional of course there are a lot of things to do with this open ocean but let's the third who is going to question or comment I heard from planet I heard mentions about traceability, data mapping inventory of all these mangrove seagrasses fishing ponds, abandoned ones and I was wondering how much data and data collection, storage and consistency is still a problem and how do you see this going forward? thank you, so let's start with the three Parisa asking about this the third one, the traceabilities you can answer this bio-micro organisms and also Paanjoman because you have been the one that long time in this blue carbon if you can the challenge what the definition of this blue carbon so let's start with okay wow, this is Ibu this is a very great question I like that it's because yes, that's why Ibu we haven't been really yet much address the micro organism role within our current program actually we are very interested on assessing more, studying more this kind of role micro organism role in the blue carbon ecosystem conservation and management it's because in one of their experience that we have on the ground actually we would like to, this is still a lot of study needed actually on the ground there are a lot of potential for example micro, like a battery things that really live within the ecosystem the potential to be used as a for example the part of medical things so I don't have yet the best data that I can share with all of the audience actually but there is a kind of further research and assessment should still be done and how this can you know the potential can be materialized by Indonesia so it's a I can inform you later if there's kind of one of the new findings has been found how this can be potentially used for the medical sector we need to discuss more with you thank you for those questions the data collections when you started at least the first year you try to get the consistency and you also try to, the second part is also to convince the partners, the communities all the key stakeholders you know your intention to collect those data but once you have all those already in place then you start taking those data and try to make it consistent the issue that we had in the beginning is about the people you need to educate the people your partners, your staffs to be consistent in taking those data but once you do that and we found that people move then we start training people again and again so it's an ongoing challenge and that's why we embarked to develop a system we developed that for the sustainability and visibility system software we call it fish face a facial recognition for fish and you don't need to train the people so much and so time consuming to train them they're able to just use the system, take the pictures and the system will do the work for you so you need to identify on how you can systemize from manual information in your data collections I think the second challenge going forward is about how is those data is going to be used to inform decision making you know the problem that we had is that when you provide data it just stays there so we need to create the dashboards so people can see and visualize and make those decisions quickly everybody can have the same perspective when they see graphics you know instead of data so those kind of dashboards you have to share goals and you develop the dashboard and people can start to visualize that and create informed decisions but I think the third challenge going forward is that there's not much funding available for data collections to be frank with all of you that's the difficult part in our job many people wants to have funding that can be demonstrated and visualize to the public really quickly but to find us to create those kind of system like what we did in some of our projects it took us 2 to 3 years now those are very powerful tools that we have developed and it helped a lot of our stakeholders to make those decisions so I would request to whoever the funders are here help us on funding for data collections it is important Indonesia has data poor and we need to develop that system for making those decisions thank you very challenging questions first regarding the map I would like to share with you I don't know if in this room there is government staff of the BIG I don't know staff of the BIG BIG is a geospatial information agency they are in charge of this kind of one map policy the wetland international is one of the member within this kind of one map policy but we are focusing mainly on the issues of mangrove so if you ask us about regarding how the data can be actually convince the result actually I have tried once to compare the data collected by Mark Spalding I don't know if you were they produce a global atlas of mangrove all over the world and the data prepared by BIG it was the result it is not very much different let's say 3.2 million hectares but the question is can we differentiate it between the true mangrove and the associated mangrove because if the mapping it is based on the land cover of course it looks quite similar one to the others because the associated mangrove it is not really the one that can grow in the mud ecosystem but anyway data is currently under the one map policy for the mangrove data it is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Forestry and the environment so currently they already finalized the map of mangrove for Sumatra and part of Kalimantan Java and NTV so currently they are in the progress but anyway it is changing from time to time because of the very dynamic of the conversion of the mangrove anywhere in Indonesia the second question it is very interesting regarding can we actually include the open ocean as part of the blue carbon I will be the one who will say yes definitely you know why? because NASA already identified 50 gigatons of carbon being stored in the ocean while in Indonesia we are as an archipelago island actually we are contributing 50% of the blue carbon from the ocean actually stored in Indonesia ocean before I worked with international I used to work with the US oil service company my background actually a caragin geologist maybe sounds very strange so I started regarding the fossil which is already preserved in a very deep far away from the surface actually our fossil fuel actually coming from the algae either from the freshwater algae or either from the ocean algae the marine algae so what does it mean? actually algae will have a very significant role in squustering the carbon it will help actually let's say I attended the COP certain in Bali I mean the British scientists they try already fertilizing the ocean in order to create a kind of algae blooming yeah but how to preserve this algae because they are very huge amount when it is blooming yeah so can we preserve actually the algae deep down at the seabed because if this algae in contact with the oxygen it will be this and the ocean will be coming back into the atmosphere by the way it's very interesting so I fully agree let's make sure that the open ocean can be the major part of the blue carbon why? because the ocean actually storing low mass carbon but apart from that I would also like to promote the algae because algae it is growing not only in deep ocean but also in the shallow water also in the lagoonal ecosystem you know what happened after the tsunami there are a lot of new I mean natural made lagoon yeah it's very interesting because after the tsunami during the tsunami there are a lot of bad sediment it was transported from deep sea and it blocked many of the estuarine in Ache and then now they establish a new lagoon so we forgotten actually the lagoon stored huge amount of carbon in terms of the micro algae or the macro algae and the last one regarding the micro organism this is very interesting as well why? because it is not only the micro organism I think it is also the macro like the bentic fauna if you go to the mangrove forest or the mudflat nearby the mangrove forest actually very rich in this kind of macro bentic organisms and if you look at the water boat migratory, the migratory water boat species actually this is the history of why the Ramsar convention in the 71 at the time the water boat scientists sitting together and then there was a surprise why our water boat population is decreasing and then they found out because a lot of wetlands in the coastal wetlands have been converted you know why? because the birds when they flew from Europe to Indonesia or somewhere in the tropics they have to let's say fill their fuel they will stay in the coastal areas they will eat the micro ventures but because of the area where they converted the food is no longer there and then many of the water birds are then dying because lack of food so of course this is very important that we have to identify the roles of mangrove it is only for the carbon but it is also part of the food cycle for the other living organisms thank you thank you gentlemen we still have five more minutes so I know that it's for Bunikisu if you have one or two questions one there in the bags no one but it's okay this is two people go ahead my name is Bastan I'm with MongoPay.com I have a question regarding the economics of blue carbon or the finance part of blue carbon I say for example if I were a businessman who had a million dollars or half a million dollars where should I start looking into investing if I want to invest in blue carbon for example and what would be the financial benefit of my investment in blue carbon thank you okay thank you my name is Muriono from my EDS I'm not sure I just spinning in my mind I want to ask for all of you in front about the blue carbon summit it is very difficult for me to ignore the other than blue I mean how it is you know it's ridiculous if you want to change the issue because there is still issue now still remaining unsolved problem like palm oil and other now we're switching to the blue carbon summit I'm not sure it is question or like just sharing of problem but one thing we must concern is we're not split the blue or another say that gray or green and the carbon is cycles so if you want to put down the important thing it is now to collaborate not just only blue I think it's just carbon summit for me because we don't have to claim that we are the heroes of carbon because now we research in mangrove but I think the problem is the island which is most people in Indonesia is the more important than the most carbon stock in Indonesia so the population issue and the mangrove issue sometimes we we cannot ignore so this maybe it's like just concern or comment why we have to adjust just only blue carbon because carbon is just cannot split with other carbon because it's cycles okay thank you so anyone to answer is Parisa anyone on the first questions on the economic spot I would like to address not the economics on the carbon side but the economics of protecting the ecosystems I think that's first and foremost that is really critical so that people really understand what's the value of protecting coastal ecosystems our science shows that protecting ecosystem let's just say in Jakarta when you go to the airport you pass the toll you see there's a lot of degraded mangroves there used to be full of mangrove now it's only less than 300 hectares out of that 350% of it is degraded and you see the impact to the coastal area even deeper than that intrusions, abrasions storms it damages the properties it damages vital infrastructures if it continues to do that we have vital infrastructures the airports the toll roads a lot of office buildings if those are impacted what is the cost of rebuilding that or insuring that we don't have currently insurance to protect those grain infrastructures in Indonesia from those kind of issues we do have in the US but not here so by investing in natural climate solutions such as mangroves seagulls coral reefs help them to restore you're actually protecting a lot of things at the coastal areas so there are real economic benefits in doing that not just the properties but people lives people livelihood as well there has been a lot of research done and there are economic benefits to that in the US it can be quantified on the return on investment in investing in natural climate solutions I don't want to say anything about the carbon side because our our business is about protecting the biodiversity and the ecosystems on that thank you very interesting question regarding with the blue carbon very interesting question why because if you look back the blue carbon please do not concentrate only on the issues of carbon because we talk about mangrove we talk about seagrass whatever let's look at the function the benefit provided by this kind of ecosystems and also the commodity itself but if you ask me if I'm an investor I would like to establish industrial biofuel industry instead of using palm oil as a biofuel why don't we use the algae because in the US currently huge research have been conducted and how to convert it the algae which is coming from the blue carbon from the open ocean and converted into biofuel it is very interesting why because the gasoline that we are using now actually derived from the fossilized algae yeah because when I was in the oil industry that was one of my task to identify what is the fossil contained if it contains a certain algae so the people the geologists will drilling the sediment so not only for the biofuel but the blue green algae the algae can also be used as a medicine so if you go to the supermarket you can see already the South Chlorella in most of the medicinal drugstorm so a lot of things that actually can be benefited for the business and yesterday I heard what happened with our mangrove being sustainably managed chopped down and then exported to Korea so what they are doing with the mangrove they produce chip and then the chip processed the mangrove pulp and then the pulp exported to Japan what they are doing with the mangrove pulp they are producing money the mangrove the yen so the yen mangrove is essentially derived from the mangrove please what I heard because of the quality is very good and also the charcoal whatever of course I am not recommending you to chop all the trees of mangrove but how to manage sustainably the mangrove but at the same time you can harvest it also that produce money I hope one day you will open up these kind of companies producing a bank note of Indonesia using the mangrove as a basic materials anyway the second question it is not about palm oil or blue carbon whatever I understand because I just aware quite recently I was surprised because a lot of our mangrove forest in the west coast of Sumatra North Sumatra and also in Papua be aware now it is being invaded or converted into the oil palm it is very silly business you know why during the high tide the sea water coming in and I have the pictures with me a lot of the trees because underneath the mangrove is a pit land and then they caught the mangrove and then they plant the oil palm and then they drain the water out and then the pit subsided and the trees collapsed fall down and then the sea water coming in and many of the oil palm even though they are already 15 years old if you go to the west coast of North Sumatra I went there with CI it was very interesting no fruits produced why because the oil palm is already inundated with the sea water quite regularly so this is a very big challenge because blue carbon it is not only talking about the issues of mangrove but also what is underneath so we have to also look at the other benefits by the existence of the mangrove and also the pit along the low land coastal areas thank you may I have one second I'd like to a little bit fast-paced there is a very good question in terms of the investments in blue carbon ecosystem from my point of view I think is when we are putting all those kind of economic term into blue carbon ecosystem I think as I mentioned earlier the challenge is about the true cost how will we put the true cost within those it's not just about the economic benefit directly coming from what we develop within the blue carbon ecosystem but also about the race for not having the blue carbon ecosystem within those those areas but as I just mentioned the same thing about the example what happened what are the cost of not having mangroves within the Jakarta Bay what is the daily for example cost for this it's not just about forgetting the fisheries but also the the environmental cost for example you can have a flooding increase for your you can have for example the coastal abrasion and erosion how much does it really cost for not having that ecosystem really well developed within a freeing coastal ecosystem so this is put in mind from my perspective but if we are talking about the investment or how can we really translate those bio or blue carbon into the monetary term from my perspective if we look at our country we have three philagic countries as natural countries who have the the dominance is that the marine ecosystem one of the the herd of coral triangle have all those again the blue carbon ecosystem the economic term they have to develop I think from my perspective if you are conserving this blue carbon ecosystem it should be through the ecotourism so this is a kind of the changing the paradigm of investment from my perspective because it's only two ways I can see at the moment how we can really take the benefits directly from this blue carbon ecosystem one is about the benefits and the second from the economic value coming from the tourism investments so and of course there is a kind of you know this carbon trade but I don't want to talk about this because this is a long way to go right on that setting but the second one I would like to address a little bit the what you call are you going to use the blue carbon or green carbon or everything like this but the problem is still there but I think I would like to put this would be great if Paprop Daniel will answer this question later on right because he's the guru on that right but if I might say that there is something they put the blue carbon as the ability of the ocean of course they couldn't to sequester the carbon system right so but that using the blue carbon setting is a kind of a little bit marketing gimmick also to to build enthusiasm aspiration right to be closer with the responsibility to conserve that a more economical system thank you let's give a big hand here so the three gentlemen basically has been many many years working in this business in this areas of the blue carbon or green whatever carbon right so they are really the one that working for conserving the nature especially of course in the ocean in the coastal also of course in the forest but this is really especially rich experience from Yoman Rizal and Paketut that the three of them that has been really working on the mangrove especially the mangrove areas under the coastal areas there are so many that has been discussed but I can't say that I cannot conclude it but the highlight of this is very important one is that of course there are so many challenges because sometimes people think that this is the gray areas whether that is really like forest has to belong to who or ocean belong to who this is the one that they call the twilight or whatever this is very important but Paketut said in term of policy we really need to have to internalize the externalities means that how do we mainstream this into the policies how that really the whole thing that has been discussed the economic benefits the science possible the microbe can be making the billion dollars or the tourism tourism by the way is now number one in GDP and I believe the 2020 there is going to be the first the GDPs coming from the tourism we don't want to just only Bali to be tourists we have the archipelagic countries that's why I think the discussion is also possible the tourism is also one of the very strong message the protecting the nature because if you are protecting the coastal you also protecting the forest you are protecting the cities you also protecting the fishermen so that's really a lot of externality that has been discussed but the last one is also that with the sustainability also using traceabilities using many other tools I think that's really good that for the futures that's going to be fantastic for important collaboration between the economies the business the also the scientists because Buu Ganja mentioned that they have possible so many things for bioprospecting in these areas of mangrove and many other things so ladies and gentlemen that's my moderating these three important gentlemen in Indonesia who has been working in this blue carbon for many years thank you thank you very much Buu Baba and thank you very much thank you Mr. Jadna Supriyadna and all the speakers thank you so much please be seated would you like to stay together to take a picture the speakers and moderator would you like to join together to take a picture please join okay let's give applause to the first discussion panel thank you so much participants after we discuss about the challenge and also opportunity in blue carbon management in Indonesia we will go further to the next agenda will be parallel discussion forum that will start at 1pm sharp at the second and fourth floor and as you may see in your agenda book there will be three parallel discussion you may see in this agenda here there will be fishing industry and sustainable blue economy in the fourth floor and then second is marine tourism and shipping industry at the fourth floor and the third is institution and government system for blue carbon it's here in the outer room at the second floor and let me mention to you that lunch will be served at the 17th floor yeah lunch will be served at the 70th floor meanwhile Musaola is in sixth floor yeah you will have a little bit exercise so you will not sleep that's why we remind you to please make your way 10 minutes before the next Asian start maybe live might be in high demand and we have to wait for a while and last we would like to deliver our appreciation to our sponsor thank you to Yaya San Blantara Indonesia Climate Change Trust Fund and also Yaya San Kehati thank you so much for your support and also from the government thank you so much for your support and okay I will see you on parallel discussion at 1 p.m. sharp and have a nice lunch for lunch Musaola sixth floor and parallel discussion will be 4th and 2nd floor thank you so much see you