 Hey there, I'm Drew and you are watching or maybe just listening to the anxious truth The anxious truth is the podcast that talks about all things anxiety anxiety disorders and recovery So if you're struggling with things like panic disorder panic attacks agoraphobia or OCD Well, this is the place for you today. We have a special guest on my friend Josh Fletcher anxiety Josh As some of you may know him and we're gonna talk about what happens when anxiety becomes part of your recovery So grab a cup of coffee or a cup of tea and let's talk about that Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number two three five Recording the beginning of November of 2022. I believe you're gonna see this right after Thanksgiving of 2022 if you're watching from the future Hello future So today we have a guest on my friend infrequent guest and collaborator Josh reflection Josh is a Psychotherapist from the UK otherwise known as anxiety Josh on the internet. He's written books He has a great podcast himself called the panic pod and today We're gonna talk about what happens when anxiety becomes part of your identity Just that can happen to people who are trapped in disorder anxiety or who are on the recovery journey It's a really great discussion I think you're gonna dig it before we get into that just a quick reminder that the anxious truth is more than just this Podcast episode or this video all of the things I have to offer all of you guys are on my website at the anxious Truth comm that includes three books that I've written on anxiety and anxiety recovery the rest of the podcast episode You're all free a free one-hour anxiety 101 recovery video training. That's on my youtube channel. That's linked on my website There's a monthly seminar webinar I do with my friend Joanna hardest on the art of learning how to tolerate distress which is such a big part of recovery There's the morning newsletter called the anxious morning all the social media stuff There's just a ton of great resources on my website the anxious truth comm go check it out And if you are following my work, it's helping you and you would like to find a way to support it All the ways you can do that can be found at the anxious truth comm slash support never required always appreciated I appreciate all of you guys and all the encouragement and all the support that I get all the time for this work that I do Okay, let's get to it today. We're gonna talk with Josh Fletcher about what happens when anxiety becomes part of your recovery We think we went on for about 30 minutes or so it's a nice short episode And then I will come back at the end to wrap it up give you links places to go resources to check out see you afterwards all right folks as promised on screen with me Josh Fletcher from the UK frequent collaborator friend guest. What's up, brother? Hi, Drew. Yeah, I'm doing alright. We're just discussing before the episode how Much my mic sounds better than your mic and that's that's basically gonna be the whole episode Yeah, you guys better strapping is gonna be two guys just making microphone jokes for 20 minutes We might not get to any mental health, but you'll enjoy the mic stuff. I know yeah Or if you're into ASMR we could do some of that as well Yeah, we could totally do that the so today We're gonna talk about the idea and I'm gonna get right into this because you said we would address the hypocrisy straight out of the Gate so I'm gonna put this up on the screen because of those of you who do not know Josh Which I bet you do you look at the bottom of the screen here. You'll see that Josh is affectionately known as anxiety Josh and today You're talking about when anxiety becomes your identity. So oh the irony Yes, there's a huge amount of double standards and hypocrisy here Yeah, I wanted to talk about the subject to the tree because it's I know it's something we kind of spoke about sporadically in the past and It's I want to look at the relationship that you have with with anxiety as a whole and most people have I'm tickled anxiety disorders. It's it's Consuming some many people have been kind of battling or living with it for years and it almost kind of Steals a part of your identity But also people going through it and going through the very lonely scary place that is going through an anxiety disorder Along the way you get to meet some people In the community in your community and a lot of our communities shared And you find some camaraderie in that community and you find a purpose and that's wonderful for me though I just want to talk about kind of This when anxiety become part of your identity in relation to recovery Because I remember for many years I Would you know, I've got a shine I've got a word for what I'm going through. It's an anxiety So it's panic. So I've got obsessive compulsive disorder, you know, yes, I have this thing and yeah, initially It's fantastic to have a name and a label for it But then I've noticed like well particularly for me many years ago So that as I was trying to go through recovery it became a more of a Reminder to my identity. It was me. It was always well I'm in groups talking about anxiety. I've got bookshelves full of anxiety. I've got Journals and blogs all about anxiety and it gets to a point where that actually isn't helpful You see it on social media and again, this is where the hypocrisy is, you know, you and I do social media, but We are still part of that world of anxiety recovery but for me you If you like not full recovery as a vague term, you know, you're in a really good place When you see stuff like mine and Drew's and you're like, oh, those guys are great But I've got a life to live right now That's what I was trying to Say and I think You know, this is my job and I do this and I have boundaries and when I'm not doing this podcast or seeing clients or whatever I get on with my life. I'm not really thinking about anxiety not thinking about anxiety recovery, you know I have that boundary and I suppose we'll talk about that as well today, Drew But it's about that relationship was when I think if anxiety has become your entire identity Or a big part of it then Take this episode as an opportunity to reflect and really actually maybe I am just absorbed too much in this anxiety sphere This wider anxiety sphere at the moment. Does that make sense? I hope it doesn't come across as powerful. No, no, no I think it's really helpful to talk about that and it does make a lot of sense It's one of the things I think that's interesting We could acknowledge that sometimes is a difficult issue for people to to even identify or confront I know I get asked all the time. You probably get this question, too Doesn't being involved in this all the time affect you like doesn't it make you anxious? Well, no because even though we might or I can I'll speak for myself Even though I might be involved in this so many hours a day in this topic It's not a part of who I am anymore because I've reached that place. So I Know it doesn't but for many people they just assume if you are reading about it all the day All I do is write about it. I talk to the microphones about it make videos about it Doesn't it make you anxious? No, it doesn't because it's not anxiety is not part of who I am anymore The disordered part isn't so I think people even fail to even see what's happened there like oh, wait a minute Yeah, wait a minute. This is a big part of who I am right now I've attached myself to it as part of my identity. So I think it's a good conversation to have I don't think it's accusatory. I don't think it's I don't think it's a bad thing. Nobody's doing anything wrong It just no, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, it's just a relationship with it I think for you and I who've been through that, you know, a lot of the recovery process a Lot of it was kind of on our own, wasn't it? My most my recovery is pretty much on my own. I didn't I wasn't fortunate enough to have this this wider community of things But at the same time that does come with its own kind of merits because it was like because I did it on my own That was it. It was a very kind of Strip back direct very simplified tasks doing them wrong overcoming anxiety is not simple It takes a lot of courage, but in general the end goal was quite simple. It wasn't convoluted with Daily reminders from let's say if I'm in what's our groups or Facebook groups like you and I have or whatever It's I didn't have that daily reminder that there was something to fix It was just I need to just get on with this and I can readdress it when I can and when I want yeah, and But I almost see it like there's two little islands and there's an under and there's an undersea tunnel You can get to that island recovery is going under the undersea tunnel and coming out on recovery island But you don't really see the person going into the tunnel and coming out and That's the kind of like a boundary So on recovery island you look back and they're like hey guys you can come over here And I love talking about anxiety from over here. Yeah, because I've been through the tunnel. I know what that tunnel is like It's dark. It's scary. It's uncertain. It seems never-ending, but actually I'm gonna tell you Loads about this tunnel because I'm here now. I'm on recovery island. It's okay. It doesn't affect me Right, but what I'm gonna tell you is that you've got to go in that tunnel on your own and go through it And then you can talk about it from this side And that's okay I know people some people do that some people go through a stressful tough things and turn it into they they So passionate about it that they turn it into their profession that job They write about it whatever bit like you and I have done but when you're in recovery Just be careful to have those boundaries and to be like I've had just a lot of anxiety content today Part of recovery is getting on with you with your life as well outside of anxiety. Yeah, yeah And you have a different relationship with it when you get I like recovery island I kind of dig that when you get to the island the recovery island that your relationship with the content is different Also, it's not triggering. It's not any of those things. No get triggered on Well, you can get triggered recovery and you don't care. I think the triggers a little bit different for people like you and me It's not so much. Oh my panic has been triggering like that, but you know, it's it's Demanding in its own way. It's just not demanding in a disordered kind of way And I think one of the things that you mentioned which is interesting is, you know, you had to go through kind of on your own You know, we didn't have the benefit of maybe the communities that you and I have now, which is true And in a way that means that when I was recovering I was out here in like the disordered zone Sort of on my own. I mean, yes I made friends and I wouldn't be behind this mic if it wasn't for the friends that I made online in those days But it was a very small number of people very small. Yeah But so you're out there like in the disordered zone on your own and you're trying to get I'm trying to get back with the rest Everybody else, but we call it social media for a reason So you can be a part of groups of hundreds or thousands of people who are like you every minute of every day And in a way, I know we use the word normalize a lot and maybe overuse it Social media yes, but in some ways the the social aspect of this means your recovery gets Socialized to a certain extent and you become part of this group that normalizes This is hard. This is scary. This is difficult. Nobody knows so it can be really easy to just take on the persona of the group, which is Hey, everybody's you know, this is too scary for me and everybody else in the group scary for them, too And they agree and yeah, I understand how that feels. It's terrible. So Hmm It's easy in that way. You almost accidentally take on yet the persona of an anxious in air quotes incapable person because of the persona of the group the social group this week's episode of the anxious truth has a real Life sponsor for the very first time in the history of this podcast The coolest thing is it has nothing to do with anxiety recovery or mental health So it's not some sort of crackpot cure because I would never do that to you guys Today's episode of the podcast is sponsored by my life in a book calm It's just a cool thoughtful service that I thought was useful and I thought you might too This might be the most thoughtful gift I've ever seen for parents and grandparents older members of our family Especially as the winter holidays approach and we get together to celebrate It's a really powerful way to connect an emotional level with the older members of our family and to start to preserve their most Precious memories show them that we really care Best of all, it's an instantaneous gift. I've tried it with my mom. She's really digging it She's having a good time with it and every week my life in a book calm Let's just choose from a list of really thought-provoking questions or we can write our own Those get email to our relatives They can answer those questions and they can even attach meaningful pictures and images to their answers This happens once a week and at the end of one year those stories are compiled and combined Into a really high quality beautiful Keepsake book that can preserve and store our relatives memories and be passed down from generation to generation You can request as many copies of the book as you would like you can even get the book in audio format Which I think is a really cool feature and with my life in a book calm You can give those you love a really a most precious gift that lets them know that they're meaningful Not only to you but the generations that come after you to save $10 off your first purchase use discount code TAT 22 that's TAT 22 to get $10 off at my life in a book calm And thank you to my life in a book calm for sponsoring the anxious truth being our first sponsor and supporting the work that we do here Yes Do you know inspired me to want to talk about this as well as like I was trying to imagine my own recovery in the age of Social media and we don't know and there was social media, but it wasn't like you know Yeah, I have Instagram and there wasn't this huge wellness fear back there and I also think that softened having the daily minute reminders during leisure time Can often be unhealthy So, you know, if you look if you it depends on your relationship with social media, but say, you know, if you have Instagram your entire feed is just Anxiety help related Right, you're almost reinforcing something in your brain there that actually anxiety is this big thing That needs to be fixed and also you'll be getting drip-fed kind of reassurance during all that others other people like me Suffer and struggle and it's okay, and that's okay. You know in the short run. That's okay. It's like Yeah, it's good to feel not alone You aren't alone and if you're listening now and you're feeling lonely and isolated, you're not alone There's millions of people that struggle Even if you're specific anxiety, there's so many people that kind of steal that as well. You're not alone, right? But I often think that it can You know when I say it's part of your identity, you know, if you've got 20 minutes of free time at home and just scrolling through your phone Often we can define ourselves through What is kind of after what we do in our free time so in my free time I like to write read listen to books Run play football see friends. I love music and I often Create and enjoy What is my eye my identity in my free time? But if you're trying and you're getting somewhere and you're almost there out of anxious recovery and in your free time You're filling it with just anxiety related content It's starting to become your identity. Yeah, you know and and don't give up drew and I love talking about And the latest research to flood that different ideas because we really enjoy it is part of our identities All right, but also importantly we have our lives as well and some and there are days where I'm like I can't be bothered talking about Yeah, I think it's different when you look at like well it becomes part of for me It's becoming part of my professional identity. Yeah, and that's part of your overall identity. That's true We can't separate that but it's not my personal identity and it's it's interesting because I mean I kid you a little bit about using the the moniker anxiety Josh But for four or five years the first four or five years as podcast it was called that anxiety guy And I hated that but I was literally so I was in the same boat I can't act like a plea guilty to that before I change the name of the podcast, you know that anxiety But I didn't want to be that anxiety guy There was something about that that he didn't like so in the end there were other practical reasons why we changed But also it felt good to not call myself that anymore. I don't know if that makes any sense to you Yeah, of course, and yeah, like I'm literally called anxiety Josh and that's part of my yeah like it's my professional identity Right, right. Absolutely If I want here's here's a way to do if I go on holiday for two weeks. I don't My professional anxiety Josh dies, right? It's just Josh. You know, it's Josh Fletcher and he's doing his own thing I even have boundaries with kind of talking about it things like that because If you're trying to recover from anxiety, you need to show and this is not why my opinion is basically fact And It's just my opinion, but like Disorder anxiety disappears When you teach it's not important And what are you doing in the moments? When you are even reading even when you're on your 50th self-help book Mm-hmm about anxiety on some level you're still teaching it that it's important Yeah, whereas if you're like, you know what I'm just going to go and play tennis with my friend I can't even play tennis, but it's better than sitting here and reading yet another self-help book About that to fix the anxiety the journey something to share with my friends in the group. I sound I know It's not really grumpy and misanthropic. It's just a take. It's just a take on it Yeah, you know, I might want to listen to one of Josh's podcasts Uh, I can't believe we're doing a podcast about Try not to listen to my podcast Yeah, I already did a podcast episode about how this podcast should not be listened to And somebody in my basement group asked can the podcast become a crutch and I'm like, oh the irony I'm going to link you to listen to a podcast about not listening to podcasts. Yes. Oh, wow. That's like meta I was like paradox. Yeah And again, it just comes but down to your relationship with anxiety It's okay like For me, I I still like looking at other people's content and their takes on it and stuff like that and mental health in general I look at other psychotherapists and stuff and that's great But then I have that boundary to be like, well, that's probably that's probably enough anxiety content today What would non-anxious me do and I've said this before this repeat a lot You know my two golden rules What would non-anxious me be doing? Yeah, and am I teaching the brain that disorder of anxiety is not important Not important if you can do those things. That's fine Um, and it just depends what kind of mood you're in like sometimes you might be like I'm feeling great. Um I want to listen to the anxious truth just to see his list his latest episode what he's talking about now as opposed to Oh, no, I still need to recover I need to listen to Josh's podcast for the sixth time Right. So yeah, but then it's now becoming a sim. It's assimilating as part of your identity the fixing has become your identity and it's it's very Important to separate like now you are more than that There is a you there and I want to know about it when I have clients in here I at first rule is like just come off all those groups, please Yeah, I'm here now. You talk to the og. You don't need all that stuff The og that's true. And you know sometimes though and it could be difficult again to acknowledge Like sometimes we didn't even realize we're doing it I remember in the early days and again I had a small group of friends on youtube and that's was the genesis of all of this stuff that I do now I remember my friend billy in the uk from anxiety united billy doesn't really make anxiety videos anymore He made a video that you know six of us saw because we just somehow we Randomly connected and we would share videos that way And he was literally just looking to the camera refreshing his youtube on camera Somebody please post a video and in the light bulb moment of wait a minute Why am I sitting here waiting? Hoping that one of my six friends will post a video about their anxiety I could should probably go do something Which was not the birth of the anxious true Well, that was part of it I mean, you know that little group that I was involved with I started by just saying well I felt like they helped me so much we just support each other I got to pay it forward But that was in it I never forget him looking into the camera like someone post a video someone and he was literally refreshing youtube while he was filming himself refreshing his youtube There's only there's only six of us. I mean, you know our eight of us little group at the time So the odds that somebody was going to post a video in that 45 seconds was very small But then he had a moment where it was he said, you know, like maybe I should just turn this off and go and try something And I think it's important to understand that a lot of times if you're gonna notice like oh, yeah, I'm making a part of my identity What do I do sometimes you just have to try other things even though You don't feel like you can do them or you don't feel like you even know if you want to do them Or am I even gonna like this? Do I like this? I don't know what else to do Trying it Just trying things is a good way to go Yeah, try different book try different music eat a different food Yeah, who are who are you are away from the anxiety? I was gonna ask you you must speak to many people Joe about like other more kind of Deeper level. It's like it's the cornerstone of avoidance Yeah, as well. And that's when you know, it's been cemented in your identity I can't go to the party because I am an anxious person right Are you we're all anxious people Yeah, okay, some people more sensitive than others and that's okay. Yeah, that's a strength But when you start to use I'm an anxious person To avoid things I find that scary as well like no no You've defined yourself as an anxious person or maybe some people around you have called you an anxious person But we're all anxious people. It doesn't mean you can do stuff whilst anxious Yeah, and also you don't need to have that level you can you can change that too now. I'm a sensitive person Yeah, that's great. I'm I'm a person that is experiencing anxiety from time to time. Oh, wait, it's not this mug I have the I'm experiencing variable states of transient discomfort like no Don't advise like mug because it's so geeky. I really want that mug I want to send you one for sure or a t-shirt. Yeah I need a t-shirt with it, but I'm experiencing transient states of variable discomfort as opposed to I'm anxious or I'm afraid Like I think I think I want that on a t-shirt. Yeah But it's You have to be willing to put a leap of faith into that which like, you know, okay You're not an anxious person your person who sometimes experiences states of discomfort and fear and uncertainty and all those things But I can do stuff while I feel that I do speak to this a lot in the last couple of weeks in my morning newsletter. I wrote about it Sometimes people are afraid to recover. We can talk about this it becomes part of their identity because In many ways and this sometimes sounds very accusatory. You don't mean it that way. This is just an observation If we get better, well, if I'm not an anxious person anymore, then I have to show up in life and that can be scary That's not that's scary. I get everybody. It's not scary. Just for anxious people. So don't feel bad if you're worried about that Yeah, but then I have to actually do things. I don't have my excuse anymore Yeah, and you could go back to that's that whole we were talking about the whole edlarian thing Like we develop anxiety disorders to mask our insufficiencies and to make excuses. I'm like really dude. Really? Okay, but And on the other side one end of the spectrum Oh, he's a very friend of theories of anxiety I actually mentioned you when I wrote about that being afraid just their excuses get left behind But then on the flip side, it's that identity thing Who am I and who am I is a big question for anybody? Disordered anxiety or not and I think you can't help but encounter a little bit of Recovery identity crisis at various points along the way this journey. It happens to all of us. Everybody's normal I hear that a lot from clients, you know, I'm scared What do I don't know? I've been anxious for so long What do I do? Yeah when I'm anxious. I'm like that can be a fun thing You don't need to know you can trial and error I've had some brilliant clients in here in the past. It's like where they've got to that stage of like shifting from like I've really I'm really buying into this this message that I don't have to be known as an anxious person and I'm living like a non-anxious person And if anxiety comes up I'm willing willing to willfully tolerate or as you say surrender to it Because I don't I don't want that to be anymore. And so in here, we've had like, well, let's write down a load of things that you might like You know, and it's really funny. Okay. I want to try salsa dancing All right, brilliant. Just go and find out and some people like I actually really enjoyed salsa dancing And other people like that was the worst thing I've ever done and I'm like, but well done for going Yeah, let's try something else life drawing A lot of life drawing with jute It's so funny because I can relay I didn't really have a therapist in my recovery I had a therapist early on and and believe it or not. Oh the irony. She was not an anxiety specialist She was a clinical social worker, but she was lovely and we connected we talked about this right that therapeutic alliance It was great. She was so helpful for a few months for me And she let me set the agenda and she just went along with the ride for me and I loved her She was great And I remember near the end sitting in my office here at the house With not feeling anxious and I literally called her that whole like, hey, you got time for a one-off here You got time for a session and I said, I don't know what to do. She's like, how about you go to starbucks? And I'm like I don't know what to do, right? Like what do you go to starbucks? She goes go to starbucks grab a coffee sit there Read a book You know, do your work bring your laptop like I don't know do that And I'm like that's a thing she had to tell me to go to starbucks And would you agree is because Anxiety was part of your identity the anxiety recovery was part of your identity So that those other experiences were just written out of my my repertoire. I did not I did not recognize those as valid experiences She was like do that. How about you go to a movie? No, you've never told me that before I was really just like your third was like, oh just just do like What do you think not anxious you would do just go and yeah go to a movie Walk through them all like is there a park nearby? Just go to the park and I'm like those are things I literally Literally had to think about that and say, oh, yeah, that seems so trivial and ridiculous Like I think I I thought that when my identity as an anxious person went away That would involve traveling the world and going on cruises and climbing mountains and running marathons No, it involves going to starbucks or like It's the things in between the events. Yes, that's so important It's so important. It's the little menial things. Yeah, you know, you're going social media and there's people like Paragliding, you know, whatever I'm not interested in it. It's the little things that that you do as you And it's so important Um, I and for the what had a client many years ago Um, who was agrophobic for 30 years? Um, which is a long time And so obviously naturally they Completely forgot what wouldn't know what to do when they weren't anxious. I'm like, well, I'm doing exposures But I don't know. I was like, right Ideally, what would you like to do just day to day and we literally sat and wrote a planner journal Every 10 minutes we spent two sessions writing this this this plan out Monday get up at this time go and do this go and do that even to the point where in the supermarket It was like that I'm going to go to that aisle and get that get that get that and we planned out the entire week And it was brilliant because one it was a The brain was just doing some stuff that was completely out of routine and out of the norm And also when there was no confusion. There's always something to anchor So it was like, okay. This is so new to me But my list says i'm going to go to the movies So i'm going to go do that when i'm there i'm going to get some popcorn and a drink and whatnot And then i'm going to go see a friend and then i'm going to ring a family member And then i'm going to go and do something in the garden and i'm going to do all these things because sometimes And again, this is for the brave people doing exposures And I don't this is no way critical. How many people do you hear where it's like They wake up They just scan for their anxiety. They don't like the anxiety. It's always there Where i'm going to go do my exposure and they bravely and courageously go and do an exposure Um, you know, I've walked through the park. I didn't like it. I've got intrusive thoughts didn't like it and they come home Yeah, they feel a bit better And then they just kind of sink back into the same habits again They think like the thing of the exposure is going to be the thing that gets rid of the anxiety altogether at all times Like a magic wand and no no what you're doing in between the exposures is important as well Are you living your life and that could just be as simple as you know watching tv Having a bath reading a book pretty much Avoiding the main compulsion that every person with anxiety has and that's inwards scanning and rumination Yeah, you're right. I think and those exposures That exposure the exposure thing does fit into this identity question, too Because in the beginning we're manufacturing tasks like exposures are manufactured tests They simulate what life looks like, but we're generally manufacturing them. They're not naturally natural, right? And what we're doing is taking basically a chisel and a hammer and we're we're driving the exposure into your identity to crack it open But it's artificial and at some point. Yeah, right and at some points Yeah, so at some point the exposure will break the sheen of the identity as or the crust Then at some point it's not always just about exposure letting life itself becomes part of the process You've got to find your gooey center You do have to find your gooey center If there's one thing to learn from this, we'll forget about this episode one day and someone will write in and be like I found my gooey center. I'm like, oh, excuse me. Who is this? This is disgusting. It seems inappropriate I need an adult I need an adult Oh my gooey center Crack open the shelf You let yourself start to sort of ooze out a little bit and try different things these silly guitars that are behind me in every video Just continuing it. He's oozing out now oozing out these guitars oozed out of my gooey center because after After ria, this is ridiculous. But uh, after ria my old therapist and she's lovely I I I still take her but she said go to starbucks and I was my mind was blown I remember being out one day and I think it was going to get the mail and I drove past the music store It's unfortunately doesn't exist anymore. I'm gonna buy a guitar. I'm gonna try that I don't know I'm the guitar and I don't have that guitar anymore, but This just and I'm still not good by any stretch of the imagination But I enjoy this and it became a part of what I like in life just because she told me to just try something I don't know try anything. It doesn't matter. Maybe you'll hate it And I remember thinking I guess I could always sell it if I hate it That guitar purchase is such a beautiful symbol, isn't it? If I played better it would be more of a beautiful symbol No, but Steven that just just you opting to To let go of that part of the identity. Yeah, this is what non-anxious me would do right now Yeah, and I got my guitar And I that's just a lot. I love those moments. I'm really quite soft and sentimental Yeah, it's when you do something that's like My anxious brain doesn't want me to do this. My threat response doesn't want me to do this But somewhere in the distance. There's a version of me on recovery island. He's waving saying I'm playing a guitar over you So go get one. Don't get one And yeah, I'm oh, yeah, and if that applies to you that could be anything It can be little things as well Yeah, just yeah go into the shop buying a Snickers bar or whatever, you know, like it's Little things like that they mount up I find more joy in the little things as a therapist when my client's coming back to the little things here I did that Rather than you know, oh, yeah, I You know, I climbed a skyscraper and punched a pigeon and then skydove off But then spent six days ruminating and compulsing in my room Well, then I'm a bit like, well, what who what that's an amazing achievement Don't hurt animals by the way, but that was an amazing achievement But I want to know what's happening in the nooks and crannies in the spaces between that, you know Because you could argue that actually that's At a very kind of left field level That doing grand massive exposures And then kind of returning to base and waiting and doing more grand massive exposures Is still perpetuating the identity that anxiety is part of right right if that makes any sense It does make sense and I think changing your identity away from that of an anxious person is something that happens in small steps You know from the bottom up it's a grassroots thing. It doesn't happen because I haven't gone more than a mile away from home and I went on vacation at disneyland That's great. That's a tremendous accomplishment. But What it's really you don't live your life in disneyland every day You live your life minute by minute doing mundane shit and you got to get back to doing that Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's that subtle. Let's get poetic it's the It's the decision to leave that bottle of water at home for a lot for a walk. Oh, man. Yeah You didn't that's that that's subtle choice. Like I don't need that bottle of water Don't need the magic candy. Yeah, I just I'm gonna go on a walk and even though it's the same walk I do every day I'm doing it As someone where anxiety isn't my identity, right? And you know, if I want some water, I'll go to the shop and buy some water. I'm thirsty Yeah, you know, uh, whereas the anxious person where it's part of our identity is Well, I better make sure they have that bottle of water just in case something bad happens Or I'll just be thirsty for yeah. Yeah, or I'll just be thirsty. Yeah, even even more important. Yeah. Yeah I'll just be thirsty and Yeah, it's so So subtle as opposed to the guy who's climbing the skyscraper and jumped off. Yeah. I mean that's impressive Yeah, but there's more subtlety More power in the subtlety in between in the little moments where you know, I'm doing this because I am me not because I Subscribe to the fact that I am an anxious person and don't get me wrong That's you're right. If you just if you want to call yourself an anxious person That's also great. What do you think about that drew life? Some people just find comfort in that and that's fine I'm My copper has something to say about that. Um, I think I don't disagree with that. I always say You know, you can shoot dude. Sorry guys You can choose whatever identity you want. Everybody's allowed to make their choices and I wouldn't It's not to me to decide who you want to be. That's totally fine. So if you want to be an anxious person Go ahead I literally would think nothing less of that because everybody gets to make their own choices Say absolutely. I'm just just talking it from a from from that perspective From again from being, you know, we've gone through the tunnel. We're out on recovery island We're saying this is how we got there and this is how we like to live our life But if you want to live your life in and you're in the realms of your own comfort, that's super important to you know, there's no We don't want to come across as kind of sanctimonious. Well, that's too late for that But like kind of we don't want to come across as like, you know, this is the only way and this is the way No, some people are just quite happy with that. I've got a family member who's It just likes doesn't really leave the county that they live in or the the state if you're an american They just never leave the state because they're just quite happy doing that, you know, they scarce them They don't want to do it and yet they live quite You know, they live very happy life, you know, it's we're just talking from the perspective of of our experiences And maybe some collective experiences along the way Yeah, the one thing it's been a minute or two on before we wrap up is The cup is like I vehemently disagree with the absolute pile and it's not okay Tell them that blame me for it to shut up. Um, I think The other thing that I think sometimes people get stuck in identity-wise Is a bit of anger So if you have adopted the persona of the angry anxious person who must carry the mantle of the anxious and and gain awareness and understanding and Make people understand that it's as difficult for us And you must be nice to us and accommodate us and know what we're going through What happens if you're not the anxious person anymore? Sometimes for some people and I'm not saying that's a bad thing activism or social justice work Whatever you want to call it. It's not a bad thing But I find that some people literally get so caught up in carrying the mantle of the cause and and making sure that We're not anxious people are not Marginalized or you know subject to that sort of thing that if you give out that identity What happens? What's your cause that can happen too? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's that's a good point as well um, you know using that anger and um That's when I'd honestly tell them to take that to kind of conventional Therapy and be like what what why why is this where's this sense of injustice? Can't be wrong just you can If you just genuinely feel a sense of injustice and you want to carry that mantle that's fine But just make sure that your relationship with it is is is okay Yeah, um, or just something I wanted to add as well before we wrap up like just be careful in terms of kind of When you look and I know it's something I've banged on about before Like this is why you know when you when you're seeking help and things like that Just be careful. You don't join my cults and things You know come to our secret WhatsApp group don't do it. Yeah, don't do it. It's I Let's speculate here. If I joined a WhatsApp group during my recovery. I mean what's that wasn't made then? Yeah, but if I joined a WhatsApp group during my recovery I would not have recovered If my phone would be going off every 10 minutes just reminded of the perils And yes, it's a supportive network, but I'm also being reminded of how difficult anxiety can be I'm more likely to post and something to ask a reassurance just because of the nature of of anxiety disorders Is that when we you know more like you're more likely to review a restaurant when they give you shit service as opposed to You know that was all right You know, it's the same. It's like you're more likely to kind of communicate. You know this Does anyone else do this? I'm scared. You know, I've had this tingling feeling blah, blah, blah um and that Has literally embedded itself as a reminder that you know, this is your identity now So I'm talking things like healing circles Um And things like when there's other ones I won't put names up when you're behind us, but you know, like Come and join the recovery circle. Yes Mentorship group, you know, yeah, that's why your group's great because it's so well moderated and And healthy and I see something hot, but but I'm sorry, but your group is one of the Rare groups One of the funniest things you ever said to me is not like your group where you have guards on the towers like And I thought oh, he's not wrong. Um You still won't have my memes though. I'm gonna keep posting those memes We wait for your memes. It's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna have to yeah Post some memes in the anxious truth, you know insulting the admin team And then if you don't approve them, it's because anxiety has become your identity No, they do they do a really good job and uh fair play to you. It's really well, we try we try But thanks man. I appreciate that. All right. Well, thanks for coming by. It's a great discussion do it again sometime Because we don't do this enough. Yeah, yeah Are you gonna come on season three of the panic pod? Hell, yeah talking about whatever you want Yeah, uh last time we did was on holiday anxiety, which is really fun actually And we were we were recounting loads. I've got really good feedback from it and just recounting our own experiences from Like going away and stuff But yeah, we'll do we'll I'm gonna do more of those, you know, kind of specific anxieties. Obviously we talk about the same You know go on the same theories, but yeah, we'll we'll do that sounds good Yeah, sounds like a plan anytime next time you give me the usual 30 minute notice. I'll roll it a better Yeah, that's amazing. We did that one like in like 15 minutes. I hey you're round. Sure. Yeah Yeah, and it was brilliant Anyway, all right, thanks come appreciate it Yeah, thank you very much I'm gonna screen here so that you guys I'll be back in a minute any way to wrap it up like you usually do I'll give you all josh's links and everything, but if you want to find josh just search for anxiety josh, you will find him He's out there And it's not part of my identity apparently. No, it is not Okay, we are back in the studio Josh is off and doing the rest of his day in the uk. I'm here in new york. Let me just wrap this up really quickly I think that was a great great conversation about a topic that we might not cover a lot Yes, I've covered it and the anxious morning pod the anxious morning newsletter and podcast I'll put links in the show notes to that if you want to check it out But this was a little bit softer more human humanistic approach to the topic But I think probably needs to be brought up now and then because it's one of those sneaky parts of recovery and anxiety That we kind of miss sometimes anyway, so thanks again to josh for taking the time It's always a pleasure to have him on the podcast and to work with him We'll definitely be doing more as we go forward that is episode 235 in the book because you know it's over because The music right This is afterglow by my friend ben drake It is the song that you hear at the beginning most of the time but always at the end of every podcast episode You could find more about ben and his music at ben drake music.com If you go check him out tell him I said hello If you are listening to the anxious truth on apple podcasts or spotify Or some platform that lets you leave a rating and a review Then leave us a five star rating if you dig the podcast and if you really dig the podcast Take five minutes and write a review because it helps more people find the podcast And then more people get this information and hopefully the help that they need. Thank you very much for that If you're watching as a youtube video, then why are you not subscribed to my channel? You should do that you should hit the like button on this video I should hit this the notification bell so that you know when I upload new episodes And you can leave a comment. I promise I will sweep sweep through every couple of days on youtube and make sure I answer everybody's comments. I love when you guys interact. I'm happy to do it And that is it. I hope you found this episode helpful I will be back again next week with another podcast episode I do not know what i'm going to be talking about as usual, but I will be here and remember until then This is the way