 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. The fights became so everyday where in the morning we would open the yards of the eight o'clock and you could hear boom, boom, boom, boom, shots going off all the way throughout the buildings. We didn't have outside eyes on us. Whatever we did in that prison, the governor, you know, gave us the seal of approval. We had more violence at Corcoran State Prison than all the nation's prisons put together. More killings, more shootings, more violence. Think about that, than all the nation's prisons put together. I mean, Charles Manson never looked into the camera. It took responsibility for anything. He always blamed it on somebody else. He blamed it on the girls. He blamed it on the blacks. And I started going into files at nighttime with a flashlight and looking to get the documents and the pictures and all the evidence. And I was accumulating all this evidence, James, to try to go up my chain of command, to have my chain of command show these officers accountable, right? But my chain of command was telling me and my lieutenant, keep your mouth shut. That's just the way it is here at Corcoran. But what is right? Am I going to be able to live with myself? Because I was going to kill somebody and 100% get away with it. I was about to be promoted to sergeant. I was 100% going to get away with it. But could I live with myself, James? And I get word that the officers involved put an end on me to be killed. And so I'm still having to go work in this prison with 6,000 inmates. Hello, and today's guest we've got Richard Caruso. How are you, Richard? Hey, James, how are you? I'm honored to be a guest on your show. Yeah, thanks for coming on. You're a former prison officer, whistleblower who exposed one of America's toughest prisons, the corruption, the murders, all the stuff that went along with it. You're one of the first to ever step forward and expose the prison system. So fair play for that. First and foremost, how are you, Richard? I'm doing really good, James. And like I said, it's an honor to be on your show. I know you tackle the tough topics. And I'm honored that you took an interest in my story. Yeah, it's very interesting. People are interested in this stuff, especially inside information of what really goes on in the prison system. And too many people would have been scared to come forward, like you who'd done that and worked with the FBI. Your life was put at risk, but thankfully nothing happened. But Richard, I'll go back to before we get into everything. I'll go back to the start with my guests, get a bit more information about you, where you grew up and how it all began. I grew up in a small town in upstate New York in a big Italian family. And, you know, my father was loved in the community. You know, we never wanted to tarnish our father's name. And then from there I went into the Marine Corps and worked as a military policeman in the United States Marine Corps because I wanted to be a police officer. And then after I got out of the Marine Corps I saw how much they were paying prison guards out in California. And I never thought I'd be working inside a prison. So I put my application in, got out of the Marine Corps to work in the prisons out in California. My first prison was outside of Sacramento, California. It was a new prison called Mule Creek State Prison. During the late 80s is when this happened around 1987 it was a prison boom. And, you know, in America in certain states it was all about build more prisons, build more prisons and throw away the key. Even on nonviolent drug offenders, you know, it was a big business. And so they were building lots of prisons in California and all throughout the Central Valley a lot of those small agricultural towns became prison towns because they had three or four prisons that surrounded that town so their economy was fueled by the Department of Corrections. So the first prison I worked at was Mule Creek State Prison had about 5,000 inmates and it was a level three prison. And in the United States we have level one, level two, level three and level four. And then we have what's called the SHU which is a security housing unit. And at the time that would kind of be like the whole of the whole. They're locked down 23 out of 24 hours a day, you know. And they don't have like day room privileges. They don't have anything in their cells, you know, but the minimal. And at the time back before the prison boom in San Quentin to Hatchapee in Folsom State Prison they had what was called the Adjustment Centers. And that's where they would put like validated prison gang members like the Aryan Brotherhood, the Mexican Mafia, the Nuestra Familia, the Black Guerrilla Family, prison gangs that were formed in prison, street gangs like Crips, the Bloods, 18th Street, all that stuff. That doesn't go in prison. The prison gangs run the prisons. The gangs do what the prison gangs say. So if you're a skinhead or if you're a white supremacist and you're coming into a California prison the Aryan Brotherhood is going to be calling the shots. Or if you're part of a Latino gang in California and you come in the California Department of Corrections more likely the MA, EME, Mexican Mafia is going to be calling the shots. So the prison that I started at was a level three and it just wasn't satisfying for me. I just got out of the Marine Corps, James, and I was all about young, dumb and you know what? Wanted to kick ass and take names and I had a mentality of us and them. They were the enemy and we were the good guys and I soon found out that you couldn't exist with that mentality that you had to have a mentality of a gray area especially when you're dealing trying to manage grown men and so I formulated a system and I'm 64290 pounds and immediately a convict would think that well, this guy's going to come in here and try to be a bully and I never conducted myself that way. I always, you know I got your attention by my appearance but once I came in I would usually let the older convicts run the unit and I would be basically managing them and so the shot callers that were running the games you know, like a Michael Thompson I see the interview that you have Michael Thompson from the area in Brotherhood I know him very well he was in one of my units the PHU at Corcoran someone like him I would let manage that unit because they would look up to him and they would look for guidance and dealing with shot callers or dealing with guys that are calling the shots in those units I know they got somebody's radio up in their cell that doesn't belong to them I know they probably got tobacco up there they don't want me up in their house they don't want me bothering them so as long as they're keeping peace in my unit I know I'm not going to change them so I just want peace I don't want anybody getting hurt when my sergeant in the Senate walks in the building I want somebody sweeping with the broom I want them to make me look good and we'll have peace in that unit and that's how I conducted myself I never conducted myself as a bully but whenever there was a situation in the prison being such a big guy I was always called upon as far as being a shield man or the first person to go in that cell to take out combat so when I was at Mule Creek when I was at Mule Creek the first prison like I said it didn't stimulate me enough and I heard about this prison they were building down in a central valley called Corker and what it was going to be was going to be a maximum security security housing unit and they were going to take all the guys out of San Quentin to Hatchapee and Folsom the whole and they were going to bring them down to Corker now when they were up in those prisons when they went to Yard the Yards up there are the size of handball courts okay so down in Corker and we had about 20 of those yards the size of handball courts but if we were cellies up in San Quentin together saying as white boys we're going to go out with just our race white boys will go out with the white boys blacks with the blacks Hispanics with the Hispanics so for years we're looking through that fence wanting to get at these guys and they're looking at the fence wanting to get at us and we're disrespecting each other because we know they can't give us but now they're going to send us to this prison they just built an essential valley knowing we're enemies called Corker and they're going to house us black white Mexican black white Mexican so what do you think when we go to Yard when we go out there in that Yard we're going to go after each other and that's what was occurring the fights were becoming predictive and you know you have people say well they didn't have to go out there and fight and the bottom line is if me and you are cellies James and I go out there and get attacked by say Hispanic or black and if you don't go out there the next day and take care of business you're going to have to deal with me and then I sell and that was the culture at Corker yeah so what sort of training do you have to do Richard to be a prison officer in America is it pretty straightforward or is there a lot of training involved when I went through in the mid 80s it was kind of a joke you did six weeks of training and then they handed the keys and when you got to the prison the officers that had been there for a while kind of said you know what forget everything you learned there now I'm going to teach you how to survive and so it was kind of a joke it was a powerful correctional officer union and our union was the biggest financial contributor to the current governor of California so that's why the pay was so high and they were all in bed together like I said to build more prisons each one was greased in each one's pocket making money off the prison system by mass incarceration and but at the time I was all loyal to the director of corrections loyal to my supervisors I believed in the mission I wanted to I was a crime fighter I was a crime fighter and I wanted to go to Corker State prison and I wanted to be a crime fighter and that's what happened be careful what you wish for I was transferred down to Corker and when I got there it was a war zone from the very first day from the very first day because you're bringing these inmates from San Quentin now you're bringing them down into the security housing unit and you're integrating them on the yards and like I said for years they couldn't get to each other out there so now they have to go out and fight and you gotta understand James they didn't have weapons I mean we're looking up their bug hole we're looking up their nuts we're looking up their nose they don't even have tape in their cells so we're trying to be shanked out there on the yard so basically there were fistfights and what was happening was we would have yard at like 8 o'clock in the morning 1 o'clock in the afternoon and then after a child like say 5 o'clock and we the fights became predictable do you understand what I'm saying to where if cell 1 is a white boy 2 white boys cell 2 kids and their cellies fought when we left them out tomorrow the other cell mates we know they're gonna go out there and fight so this is what happened to me is I was in the gym one day and I was working out and there was some police officers working out next to me and I had some correctional officers that were working out with me and we started going off over our day and this is gonna sound crazy to you because it is crazy talking about how our day was gonna go and we said well we'll shoot Jones at 8 o'clock then we'll shoot Smith at 1 and then Hernandez we'll shoot him at 5 because we knew who's coming out we already knew the fights were gonna take place before they were gonna happen based on the game affiliation and based on the prior animosity between the games and so the police officers were like what do you mean you're gonna shoot them out there we have a 9mm H&K that shoots an explosive 9mm round that will explode inside the inmate so it doesn't go through an exit and hit the victim we also have a 223 mini 14 round that goes through you and me and start bouncing around that cement yard we also have a 37mm that shoots the blocks that there's five of them in a projectile we call them knee knockers you know what I'm talking about James? and basically it's a lethal weapon that I would use and I would shoot that every time the 37mm because I didn't feel that I should have to use a lethal weapon to shoot an individual that I know is gonna fight consciously I couldn't do it so what was happening is that the fights became so every day in the morning we would open the yards at 8 o'clock and you could hear boom boom boom shots going off all around throughout the buildings the reports are being written it became such a normalcy to where when you're involved in a war or a battle and to the outside war people would be like what the hell is going on but to us we become desensitized to that and it becomes a routine you got the paperwork started we want to get the paperwork done clean up the mess take pictures of the crime scene whatever and then on to the next yard and that was the culture how many inmates were in Cochrane? when I was there just under 6000 how many prison officers? we had about 800 800 divided into three shifts so if I was working a yard there would be three officers on that yard to a thousand inmates with one gun now in the security housing unit in the hole we would have three officers working in there with one gunner so those inmates are locked down in maximum security so every time we come into the pod or the unit we are going to their cell to give them toilet paper to feed them three times a day unless you feed them three times a day so everything that inmate gets is us coming to his cell so you get to know these inmates very well on a daily basis I had a lot of famous inmates I had Charles Manson Sirhan Sirhan Juan Corona Charles Manson right here his picture he gave me this and you can see on the back where he says Caruso he's got my name I got letters from his I mean from all these infamous inmates you can see the Manson Swastika and signature and these are all his letters blood on these letters but this was the environment that I was in and James at the time I still had that kicked ass, take name mentality where it was us against them and then I started seeing officers that that gray area that we talked about whenever you give somebody power there there's individuals that will abuse that power if nobody is watching from the outside whether it's our government whether it's any organization if you don't have outside eyes on that organization you're going to have corruption so being that we didn't have outside eyes on us whatever we did in that prison the governor gave us the seal of approval we had more violence than all the nation's prisons put together more killings more shootings more violence think about that more prisons put together so that was the environment and I started seeing these inmates going out of the yard and the fights became predictable what's the method of this happening, what's the method of letting gang members be together, what's the method of having an overpopulated prison was a plan to torture people, kill people, harm people was an experiment like what was the true agenda behind having such an extreme prison with the worst criminals in America well James that's the key question right there and that's the question that other director of corrections from other states wanted to know why is California doing this and I think we had senate hearings in which I had to testify in front of the California senate it changed the department forever but I think what came out of those hearings is what is a big factor to establish like say TSA like after 9-11 they established in America this thing called TSA these screeners they pay them this huge money to screen passengers and to fear in the public saying hey we need this big organization and we need to pay them big money to kind of use fear and I believe that they were creating this violence at corporate to for you as the public you're hearing about the violence you're reading it in the paper you're seeing it in the news and your philosophy is pay these officers whatever you got to pay them we don't want these animals coming over the walls into our communities you follow me they're using violence and fear against the public to substantiate making the big money and building more prisons when we could have controlled it ever since I came forward and the other individuals that exposed it we haven't had that violence they didn't integrate them anymore in the security housing unit so all the violence stopped once you started sending them out of their own game we knew what the solution was but they didn't want to do that they wanted the violence how many gangs are in these American prisons Richard? there's lots of street gangs but like I said the prison gangs prison gangs are gangs that are made in prison like the Aryan Brotherhood the Noesta Familia the Mexican Mafia the Texas Syndicate these gangs were originated in prison so I think there's like six or seven prison gangs but there's so many street gangs and those street gangs they integrate with one of the prison gangs when they get there because I know in California the Hispanics are the majority so the Mexican Mafia runs a lot of the California Department of Corrections in my opinion that's my opinion they're very what we call deep because they have the border brothers which are illegal illegal aliens from Mexico over here in the United States illegally committed crime and now they're in a California prison and they don't want to go back to Mexico they're living better in a prison in California than they would in Mexico so the Mexican Mafia instead of sending them on missions to stab somebody to hurt somebody and these are soldiers these are soldiers they're very dangerous did you ever see the movie American Me? yeah I had those guys in my unit Joe Morgan the one with the peg leg all those guys were in my unit very dangerous individuals that are very intelligent they have nothing to do all day but to think about how to beat the system how to work game how to finance the game and the prison game they're running the streets drugs on the streets so they're not people that you want to get in the way of and that's why I just was firm but fair but like I said I saw Michael Thompson's interview on your podcast and the reason it affected me so much was I know him very well and he's a very intelligent convict he's been down for 45 years he knows he'll be the first one to tell you that 37mm shooting almost every day well yes I was because I was shooting the blocks a less than lethal round we knew the fights were going to happen but when you asked him that one question James his response blew me away probably about an hour and a half into your interview you asked him what was the closest you ever came to death in those 45 years and he thought about it and I'm thinking this guy says he's been shot 22 times I question that but that's what he says because documented okay but what he said was in 1993 there was an inmate named Preston Tate who got his head shot off Thompson was the clerk was my clerk was our clerk in that area so he was privy to inside information files because once the incident happens we're going to write our reports and we're going to send everything up to Thompson and Sirhan Sirhan worked in there too so when he said he had the inmates files before the incident even happened that was a common occurrence because that's how it was we knew the fights were about to occur but when he said he was up north and he was going to testify in the Hell's Angels trial up there and they pulled him out of the cell and beat him down because they didn't want him to testify in the trial that I was involved in by blowing the whistle on the department that blew me away I had no idea that happened I don't even know if the U.S. Attorney knew it happened but it really blew me away that that was the closest that he came to death with all the violence that he had been involved in for 25 years how tough was Michael Thompson because when I spoke with him he seemed like a nice man genuinely but you says that these men are the elite of the elite for manipulation you don't run prison gangs they're in brotherhood without being silly like clearly they've got skills of manipulation and grooming people to be and do what they want like how was Michael Thompson in prison was he as fearless as he was but then obviously he changed and had to get into protection but was he a feared man back in the day well you know your definition of a fair man and my definition might be different but my personal definition is a person that is like a chameleon that can blend into his environment and they can sit around you and you think that he's on your team but he's really not and Michael Thompson was master he was a master of being a chameleon that when it went to dealing with the prison gang or the inmate population he knew the shuck and jive he knew how to talk to them when it came to talking to officers but to administration he knew how to talk to us so he was brilliant when it came to manipulation very smart guy very smart not a stupid man at all but he had a hit on him from the Aryan Brotherhood because of what happened where they killed that Aryan Brotherhood I don't know if it was a girlfriend and the two kids but what he said was true that he he wasn't down with that and he ended up turning on the Aryan Brotherhood but at one time he could raise his hand and have you come missing and know whatever find your body probably the Aryan Brotherhood I know he's on the list where they want to get him but I think Michael Thompson doesn't hide from anybody and I commend him for trying to do the right thing now and hopefully he turns his life around but I was around him so much and he was around us so much he was like a chameleon you almost lose that I'll give you an example of James he got a female lieutenant fire he got my lieutenant fired he had a sexual inappropriate relationship with my female lieutenant and she got fired he was her clerk her name was Women Peruzzi and Michael and her had this thing going on and he manipulated her way and whether I'm not saying it was all his fault he lost the focus of what her job was and that line and crossed the line and had some inappropriate relations with Michael Thompson and she was fired but the fact that you were able to pick up on that this guy is an intelligent guy he's very nonviolent and everything he said about Charles Manson was true how Charles Manson and me and Michael Thompson saw like a Juan Corona who killed over 20 some migrant workers and cut their heads off I mean Charles Manson never looked into the camera it took responsibility for anything he always blamed it on somebody else he blamed it on the girls he blamed it on the blacks but Charlie came from he was raised he was born up in Ohio a drug addict he was given away for drugs he was a prostitute he went into the juvenile system Charles Manson went into the juvenile system he was molested he was beat down and trust me I'm not a sympathizer to criminals I'm not a sympathizer to crime I'm very hard on it but I also recognize if a kid comes out of an environment that doesn't have a chance from the get go Charles Manson went into the adult system he's a little guy and he was beat down and he was he learned how to be a conflict and he learned with his music he was a musician and his gift of gab that kind of brought peace into his life to where people will listen to his gift of gab but as far as people that have worked with Manson as opposed to Charles Manson was a lot of media built and Michael Thompson and myself and everybody else that worked at Corker State Prison has seen evil face to face and it was a lot worse than Charles Manson but there were also nonviolent drug offenders in there it could be you James say you got caught with a little weed on the mainline and they row you up for like say three months and they send you to the hole for three months and you come over to the shoe and you roll up into my cell and I say hey who are you with and you're like what do you mean who am I with like who are you going to fill that with and you say I'm not down with that well you're going to be down with it now because you're in my cell so see Charles Manson he's always pleaded his innocence and says he was set up like is he an absolute psychopath because he never done any of the murders is that correct he was never they killed somebody at the ranch and buried him at the ranch and I think Charlie was involved with that I know he cut a guy's ear off and at the ranch and he's admitted to that but he's always blamed somebody else you know a true killer a true convict will look you in the face and it'll own his work and Charlie's always diverted it he's never like Sirhan Sirhan let's talk about one man that changed the course of history in America with his one action by killing Bobby Kennedy I've never met another man that changed the course of history by killing Bobby Kennedy this one man changed the course of history because Bobby Kennedy was going to become president of the United States and he would have pulled everybody out of Vietnam so this one man action of taking the life of Bobby Kennedy Robert Kennedy changed the course of history but Sirhan Sirhan worked in the offices with Michael Thompson and if you met him James you would say what a gentleman never been in trouble his whole time in prison I don't know if you ever saw the movie the Manchurian candidate where it's kind of like the the CIA and they click their fingers and they bring out another personality there was a lot more behind Sirhan Sirhan than killing Bobby Kennedy he was a gentleman he had never been in trouble very intelligent, would never talk about his crime and so Charlie loved the attention Charles Manson loved the attention do you believe in MK Ultra what is that it's like see this man who killed Bobby Kennedy like they've manipulated the brain to then for people to go that's what I'm telling you yes because if you look at that story James in the door frame that revolver had six shots and I believe they found eight bullets and there was something more to that than just Sirhan Sirhan he was a shooter but I think there was another shooter and I think just exactly what you said some kind of did something to make him go into some kind of mode because if you ever met that man you would say this guy is a gentleman but majority of psychopaths are like because they believe in their own methods of they're sane when they're actually fucking insane like was Charles Manson how could he manipulate so many women to do such ruthless things that they do see that manipulation tools with Charles they'd ever try and manipulate you in any way absolutely absolutely I did absolutely and I think that you're very versed in the prison environment and so what I'm about to tell you you'll understand Charles Manson would find common ground for me he read my last name which is Caruso so he knew that I was Italian so he would start telling me stories about hanging out with my dad in the mafia in New York City and then he knew my father and they used to hang out together as gangsters and so he's trying to find an end with me and then when he knew I was a marine and I would come into work I would look up at his cell and he created this cone hat he put a like a hat on and he would salute me as the marine and I would salute him and then he would go like this to me and I would go like that to him so he was trying to find a common ground with me to basically have me open up to him and that's a form of manipulation to say hey I know your people and you know I saw through it the bottom line is he's a convict and what you see in America today James with Black Lives Matter and some of these activist groups and Tifa where they're feeding the brains of these young college students and young kids to drink the Kool-Aid is the same thing that Charles Manson did he took that convict mentality to San Francisco and fed those kids that Kool-Aid that convict mentality and they drank the Kool-Aid it's the same manipulation Michael Thompson will go back there that nobody likes a snitch or a rat but in all honesty a man who was the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood then came across a hit where two kids were killed, a woman were killed were you surprised that he turned against his own and gave evidence I respect what he done I do respect that because kids were killed, I have kids of my own so but were you a man such high up to have been running one of the biggest gangs in American prisons to then turn evidence against the Hills Angels were you surprised at that knowing Michael Thompson I'm not surprised because he he is a guy that I believe I think it was hard for him to even bite into the Aryan Brotherhood in the beginning and finally he took on he realized he needed to align himself with somebody I believe he's Indian he affiliates with the Indian culture and yes Native Americans but he's an intelligent guy so he kind of finds a middle ground training fields for law enforcement on how they were bringing weapons into the prisons he provided testimony to law enforcement of how drugs were coming into the prisons so he's becoming an informant for us and he's also still committing crime on the street so he's kind of shaking the hands from all sides and then running his own little game and it all kind of comes down on him and that's why I think he was in prison so long because he was a major threat because of his intelligence and he comes off when you meet him if I saw him on the street I would say hello to him he probably acknowledged me because he knew who I was I knew who he was it was almost a mutual respect but as a convict he was very dangerous because he knew the inner workings of us he worked in our office so when he said that he had those files before those inmates went out there of the individuals that were involved that shows premeditation to me and I was blown away but I wasn't surprised but he is you know you know what to me a dangerous person is a man that doesn't value his own life like a guy that will blow himself up over in Jerusalem or a suicide bomber Michael Thompson he stood up for law enforcement he stood up for the Aaron Brotherhood he stood up it depended on where his alliance was at the time but he knew when he crossed the line of the Aaron Brotherhood he was very dangerous he was very dangerous he was very dangerous so I do give him respect to have the conscience enough to try to do the right thing and he paid a price for it over the years you know they had they got a hit on him and so I'm not trying to walk in his shoes and but what he said two times he might be talking about buckshot pellets and all that but I believe probably 99% of what he said he is the real deal he's the real deal and he knows exactly what was happening in Corcoran State Prison what sort of weapons would you see in these prisons Richard? well I mean out in the general population you would see bone crushers and you would see anything they could sharpen into a knife and fixate a handle on but inside the shoe inside the maximum security housing unit you wouldn't see any of that it was off this place maybe they get a staple and create a blow gun and put the staple in feces and roll like a little tube a paper and put it up in the bars and try to spit the staple at you the bacteria stick it in your neck or something but we had some dangerous people up in the shoe and I'll give you another story there's Pelican Bay in Northern California and that's another shoe unit but that hadn't been built when we opened up Corcoran so Pelican Bay I want to stay is like 12 hours from Corcoran State Prison one night these officers went up to this cell that housed two white boys the two white boys had shaved their head they both looked the same so the officers went up there and said Smith we're transporting you down to Fresno and get your stuff and you're going to court well he knew he was going to court so they asked the inmate number the inmate gave him the number they put him in shackles they put him in the car all the way down to Corcoran State Prison I don't know it might be a 14-15 hour drive we get him in our unit right and we asked the inmate his name and his number he gave us the name but he had the wrong number right and we look at the transfer officer saying this is not who's supposed to be here so now they realize they brought his celly they messed up right so we put this Smith up in the cell and he starts going crazy in the cell he starts throwing water toilet water out the cell flood the tear he starts spitting he I mean we went up there we said we need to knock it off he's like you know fuck you come in and get me and we're like listen we're going to come in there and it's not going to be good so he tried to stab us with a spear he had formulated paper and rolled it real tight and he's trying to stab us through the bars so we're like that's enough so I get my stuff on I get a shield in my helmet back then James in the 80s this was our equipment I had a helmet I had a tile on my neck so I wouldn't get stabbed I had socks over my boots so I wouldn't slip in the shit and piss on the cell floor and then I was a shield man going in there to hit him right and I had four guys behind me so this inmate tried to stab us right so we went up there and we went in that cell and James I mean we beat him down bad so bad because he tried to hurt staff that we had him transport him to the outside hospital and so we have him cuffed in the emergency room in the outside hospital because he'd be so bad and the doctor tells us to come over and look at the X-ray machine we come over the X-ray machine guess what we saw this inmate had dental floss around his molar and a handcuff key in his throat and he had formulated this plan to try to hurt staff knowing that he was going to get beat down and get to the outside hospital and there he would uncuff himself and escape so he had this big plan and that's how brilliant they are that he was about to escape knowing that his actions was going to create this reaction that's the kind of mentality that we're dealing with yeah that's smart so how does a man like yourself, Richard who is a good prison officer loves by the book shooting inmates every day with your blocks and preparing for the fights to then potentially helping inmates with the violence, the killings all the corruption that goes on what was that moment for you to then open your eyes and decide I wanted to make changes that's a good question it's like a marine or a soldier going to Vietnam and we're drinking the Kool-Aid of our government and we're going in there and we're shooting people that has never done anything to us but our government says they're bad people so then we got soldiers and marines that are crossing the line hurting women and children and other soldiers and marines are honorable saying this is wrong same kind of thing that incident that Thompson talked about Preston Tate this inmate they put him out on the yard they invited a female and others up into the post with a gunner so it had to kind of be entertained and then they put Preston Tate who was black and his cellmate James out on the yard and then they let two Hispanic combatants out against them and the Hispanics charged them and started striking the two African-Americans Tate and James and as a result the gunner told to stop fighting and immediately there was a 37 wooden block and then immediately a 9mm shot and shot James's head off well I had talked to the officers after that and they were all upset about it saying this shouldn't have happened they had brought people up there into the control booth to kind of impress them they brought a female across the prison to impress her up there in the gun booth to watch this fight so when I saw the press release and it said the inmate Preston Tate was the aggressor that he attacked the Hispanics and they were shot as a result of not complying with the officer I knew that was all lies I knew it was all lies so I went to my lieutenant that Topson was talking about his name was Rig and I said these are lies this is all wrong and I started going into files at night time with a flashlight and looking at the documents and the pictures and all the evidence and I was accumulating all this evidence James I tried to have my chain of command to have my chain of command show these officers accountable right? but my chain of command was telling me and my lieutenant keep your mouth shut that's just the way it is here at corporate so then I realized you know what I need to contact the FBI so I called the FBI myself the lieutenant named Talbot and Steve Rig we got a hold of the FBI and the FBI got a hold of me I understand that you have evidence at your house of shootings and beatings that are happening at Corker State Prison we would like to come to your house to see that evidence and I said fine that's fine well I'm thinking James that we're all going to work together all the agencies are going to work together and we're going to come to a conclusion and stop the violence and these officers are going to be held accountable for this inmate being shot to death that night before they were going to come to my house my conscience started getting the best of me because my warden at the time James I was in so many incidents of use of force and if you talk to Michael Thompson he'll tell you Caruso was used over and over and over I was shooting that 37 millimeter every day I refused to shoot the 9 millimeter I was shooting the blocks so my peers were saying these inmates don't fear you you need to shoot one of them to send a message that then they won't come out and fight but as long as you keep shooting them with the blocks Caruso they're going to come out and fight and I said I'm not going to shoot another human being with a lethal round just to fit into this crew right so here I have all this evidence in my house James of all these shootings that I stole out of the prison I put in my lunchbox in my pants in my uniform, tape recordings everything and the FBI knows I have it in my house and so I'm at work that night and my conscience is getting the best of me I'm about I'm a marine I'm a cop I'm about to go down this road that when I go down this road my career is through it's over with but what is right am I going to be able to live with myself because I was going to kill somebody and 100 percent get away with it I was about to be promoted to sergeant I was 100 percent going to get away with it but could I live with myself James could I live with myself and I realized that God was watching me and it didn't matter if I was penniless I needed to do the right thing and I needed to stop this violence so that night before I was going to have a meeting with the FBI I walked up to the warden's office now James I know you understand the chain of command a private just doesn't go up to the general's office you got to knock on the door you got to go through channels to get to the general I'm a like a private I'm a professional officer and I'm going to knock on the general's door the man in charge of this prison and I'm going to look at his face and I'm going to tell him exactly what I did exactly who's coming to my house in the morning and exactly what I took so I knock on the warden's door and he goes he recognizes me because I was always involved and he says come here, Crusoe I said sir I said what I'm about to tell you I'm probably going to lose my job over I said but you know these shootings and killings at Corcoran they could have been prevented and there's a specific shooting with an inmate named Tate that was set up I said I have a meeting with the FBI in the morning and I have evidence that I took out of the prison and his face was just white just white and he knew he couldn't tell me don't meet with the FBI so he said go ahead and meet with them so I'm like okay so I went home that night the next morning I wake up James now understand where I live there's five prisons five prisons around my town so everything being fueled in that town as far as the economy is through the prison system it's cop land alright and I'm about to expose it I'm about to jeopardize the income of all these officers and so my wife and I had a little girl at the time I sent him away I knew the FBI was coming to my house at 8 o'clock and there's a knock on my door at 8 o'clock and I go to the door and they show me the badges they said FBI they go Richard Kruse or you have evidence in here of shootings and beatings and killings I said yes I do I invited them in I took them in the back of my bedroom and everything laid out on the bed and they're nervous they're all nervous and I'm like why are you nervous what's going on and the female FBI agent said you went to your ward last night and you told them that you took this evidence I'm like yeah I did I go he's my boss I work for them we're going to all work together and we're going to hold people accountable and the FBI said Richard it doesn't work like that we don't you got these egos involved the state the state doesn't like the feds if you ever go like in America so like at Denny's you'll see the sheriffs the sheriffs sit in one corner state troopers in another corner and city police in another corner they won't even talk to each other so you deal with egos so she was all nervous saying Richard you told your warden that you took the evidence I said yes I did she was Richard there are two state investigators and they're going to kick your door in with a warrant because you stole this evidence out of a state prison and they're going to have custody of this evidence and jurisdiction on this case unless you turn it over to us right now they're going to kick your door in Richard I'm like holy shit I turned it over to the FBI right there I put my sneakers on as I'm walking out of my house James two cars reach up to the house and it was those state investigators they come out and start showing the FBI their badge and the FBI saw him you need to back down they said he works for us what did he give you and the FBI goes you don't need to know what he gave us and the state investigator walks right through the FBI parts of it comes right to my face and he whispers to me he goes did you give him that stuff and I said yes I did and he just shook his head like this and he got this car and now the state is following us I'm in the FBI's custody they're following we're going to Fresno which is 35 miles and we're now speeding up to about 90 miles an hour and the state is behind us they've been told to back away back down this is a federal investigation now the FBI is calling into place on the state's vehicles because the FBI said we got two scenarios playing out here one these are not real state investigators because we told them they need to back down or two what this young guy gave us in this bag is the house of cards is going to bring everything down in the California prison system well that's what it was and they whisked me up into the FBI building and these state investigators come storming in and said we want to talk to Caruso and the head of the FBI came out and said if you don't leave we're going to arrest you right now so here I am James I'm working for them but I'm cooperating with the feds I'm trying to feed them to stop this violence so they interview me for six hours James the FBI and they're like Jesus crisis is going to be huge right so they take me back to my home I haven't talked to my wife all day she's scared she's living there in top lane with my little girl they pull up to my house it's dark and there's a light out in the house but the side gate is waving in the wind and the FBI told me to stay in the car they got out they drew the weapons they went around the house to clear the house to make sure there was nobody around that house because they knew how vital I was and the information and the witness that I was so they said get in the house we'll contact you in the morning so I walk in the front door of my house and my wife jumps into my arm and she's crying saying what is happening what's going on James within five minutes there was a knock on the door and at this time it's like 10 at night and this is before cell phones this is 1994 there's a knock on the door and I go to the door and I look out the window and it's the two state investigators that have been following us the whole time and I open the door and they look at me and they go Richard you got to come back to work will you interview with us I said absolutely I'll interview with you I said I want to do the right thing why aren't you cooperating with these guys they go can we take you down to the police department and interview you about what you gave the FBI I said absolutely so they take me down to the police department in the town that I was living they start the recorder I go on the record for three hours and they're just shaking their head and they're like Jesus Christ you gave them VHS tapes of shootings you gave them that and they know it's going to be bad so at this point I didn't know what's going to happen to me James we didn't have cell phones like I said so they concluded the interview they look like they just saw ghosts based on what they knew I gave the FBI they took me on a ride out to a cotton field I thought they were going to shoot me in my head right there they pulled up to a cell art to a pay phone and they dialed Sacramento to the director corrections at the time and they tell the director we have Caruso in their car right now and boss it's going to be bad he gave them incident reports he gave them pictures he gave them VHS tapes it's going to be bad and the director said tell Caruso don't go to work for a couple days they don't know when to come back and so I'm thinking you know what my career is over with I just crossed the line you don't cross but the reason I crossed it was because I was going to kill someone 100% and get away with that shooting and have to live with killing another human being that didn't have it coming so the next day the FBI calls me and they're mad at me because I met with state investigators so I'm like this pawn in the middle trying to do the right thing as a young officer trying to cooperate with everybody to tell the truth to stop the violence but you got the feds that don't like to stay the state investigators that don't like the feds the state's trying to cover up the prison the violence and the feds trying to expose it so I'm involved in this huge mess of egos money and so I go to work and I get word that the officers involved put a hit on me to be killed and so I'm still having to go work in this prison with 6,000 inmates so I go into my unit and in my unit there's a guy named by the name of Topo Peters Benjamin Peters and he was like second or third in command of the Mexican mafia he already knew what happened at my house and he had been in prison he had already got word from the streets of what was going on and you know what he said to me James he said Cruso there's nothing that's going to happen to you there's nothing that's going to happen to your family and I was shocked he goes you stood up for our people you risked everything for our people and I was like wow nothing's going to happen to you so they refuse all the gangs the prison gangs the people that you call that we call the bad guys society put a protective circle around me and wouldn't let nothing happen to me and that was the only way that I was able to make it in there because they wouldn't do it they wouldn't move on me and and so I'm up there in Vacaville and the department tried to force me out for it in the meantime I get a call from a reporter from the Los Angeles Times and his name was Mark A. Rex and he said Richard I know who you are he goes you need to tell the public who you are I said I don't need to tell the public anything I don't want my name in the media he said Richard what's good about these officers what about the construction crew that had the bid to build a new prison now they're not going to build it these politicians you're tarnishing these politicians he goes Richard you're going to turn the key on your truck and it's going to explode and nobody's going to know who you are what you did let me tell your story and put it on the front page of the Los Angeles Times and then what your story is told there's no reason to retaliate against you so I told my story to Mark A. Rex and I came out on the front page of the Los Angeles Times and after that that's when Mike Wallace in 60 minutes got a hold of me and I don't know if you ever saw the movie The Insider with Al Pacino but it was about the whistleblower Jeffrey Wagon who blew the whistle on Big Tobacco and Al Pacino played Lowell Bergman and Al Pacino played The Insider in my piece and so I did 60 minutes and so but no indictments were coming down James I mean the feds were sitting on this and the reason they were sitting on it is they realized that five prisons surrounded the federal courthouse the venue so during Vaudier which is jury selection at the prison that has connections to staff and to get the conviction is going to be hard so the feds just kind of sat on it but it was in the media constantly and the U.S. Attorney was hammering me to stop the media because the citizens people like yourself were saying we need to hold them accountable why aren't you indicted so we're talking of me having to endure every day not knowing if I'm going to live and so finally the word came down that the state was doing investigation right they're going to do an investigation on the allegations that are in the media well we all knew that the state was going to investigate we had over a thousand shootings James with the block gun we had lethal shootings where inmates were killed right so I'm thinking they're going to reopen it all right and so the state does this joke of an investigation the feds are doing their investigation I'm looking over my shoulder I got prison gang members street gang members this this book right here this book inside the crypts Los Angeles most dangerous street games you got you got you got crypts you got street gang members putting me in their books talking about the officer at Corcoran that blew the whistle to stop the violence this is how much they appreciated you know me stepping forward to stop the killings of their people but it wasn't because of that I did it because I couldn't live with it in my conscience taking another man's life that didn't have it coming so here I am going for years of having to endure one of the feds going to indict one of them going to get off their ass and do something so finally listen to this James for finally for three years I'm feeding the FBI all this evidence I'm going to call that I need to meet the FBI and the U.S. Attorney that I initially met with initially in San Francisco in my attorney's office right so I tell my wife they're going to indict you they're going to indict these officers they're going to go into my attorney's office because now I'm suing the department of civilly because they're trying to force me out so I'm saying to myself I'm in my 30s there's no reason there's no reason why I should have to retire because I'm doing the right thing so I'm fighting the department and so I go in my attorney's office and the U.S. Attorney that I met with the first day this happened is sitting across from me two FBI agents that were in my house are sitting across from me and I'm kind of waiting for a pat on the back and a thank you right because for years I've been risking my life for this agency for the FBI you know what they did James well the U.S. Attorney looked at me and said Richard you know that the FBI or that the state investigators have been doing an investigation also well they sent us a memo saying that you sent a child molester out on the shoe yard and shot a child molester with the wooden blocks and I'm stunned I'm looking at my attorneys I'm looking at my wife my wife starts crying I go are you believing the people that you were calling dirty I go you don't think you're trying to tarnish the star witness I think and he looked at me he goes listen I'm gonna offer you four years in a federal prison if you plead guilty to this shut his book and walked out I'm like holy shit they're all in bed together they're gonna indict these officers and they're gonna get crucial I never did anything like that so I looked at my attorneys and I'm like I never did that I never did anything like that they said Richard we see what they're doing they're gonna get these officers and they're gonna do state of favor and get you I said well I tape recorded every time I talk to the FBI I tape recorded them I say yes they never said I was a target they said I was a hero they said if they had that investigation all the evidence they would have thrown in a dumpster they troll me on this on tape he said Richard he goes I got a high powered attorney I want him to listen to those tapes so I went to him he said you give me $10,000 and I'll listen to these tapes and I'll do what I can do he listened to the tapes he met a meeting and the two FBI agents and he goes in there and he looks at the U.S. Attorney he says Mr. U.S. Attorney that kid is a hero you told him he's a hero he put his life on the line for years for you and he goes didn't you tell him this didn't you tell him that so he's speaking verbatim what they told me on the phone now the U.S. Attorney realizes Caruso's got tapes of us he goes we're not gonna dig Richard and he goes you're goddamn right we're not gonna dig Richard my attorney folds his book and books right after that James I testified in front of the Senate I changed the department of correction forever the shooting stopped they extended the academy at the correctional academy now there's lie detector tests before you're getting hired there's psychological evaluations all this stuff came down as a result of what I did and so there was an election it was an election year at the time the Republican governor wanted to build more prisons build more prisons build more prisons a Democrat got in there and I'm a Republican but the Democrat or the Republicans wanted me dead they wanted me silence right so a Democratic governor gets in and they Davis and the head of the Senate hearing Senator Richard Palacco one that I helped change the department by showing him everything I gave the FBI for three days I met with him and briefed him on everything he went to the governor and he said we need to take care of Caruso so the governor of the state of California asked his people call me at my house and informed me Richard the governor of the state of California has ordered the department of corrections to settle your civil lawsuit and I'm like are you serious he goes yes for what you did for us he goes he's not he's also going to give you his personal attorney to sit at the table with the other with the state across from you and your attorneys so James for two years I've been in depositions with these attorneys from the department of corrections looking at me like I'm a piece of shit because I broke the code of silence now I'm going to be sitting at a table in the pyramid building in San Francisco with the same attorneys looking at me and now I got the governor's attorney sitting with me and the judge my attorney says your honor this kid's been a cop since he's been 19 years old there's no reason why he should have to reach for a burden in uniform because he did the right thing and they're writing down all kinds of stuff they take me back in a room they come back with a number I refuse that number now remember these are the state that said that I shot 37 millimeters and the child was the right why are they offering me anything if that is true so I'm in the other room and you know they're writing numbers down making me offers to stop my lawsuit so finally I said this is the number that I want and they said we have to call the governor to get this number approved so the governor gets on the phone with me he said Richard he goes this is the most a whistleblower has ever gotten in the state of California he goes what you did was so out of the realm for someone to do the right thing he goes but don't push our face in it he goes go on with your life live a happy life he goes but don't push the state of California's face into it every chance you get and I said sir thank you so much I appreciate it and I come back into the room and now those attorneys for the state they can call me a piece of shit for two years guess what they tried doing James what they come up to me and start hugging me rotten to hug me and we know you're a good guy we know I say get off of me you dirty you're just as dirty as them they're just dirty yeah that's a mean fuck I know I know so it doesn't stop there so now I just got the highest settlement to a whistleblower in the state of California given to me by the governor of California and if I was a dirty cop that would never happen so now I'm in the gym and I'm working out and I'm living in Napa California and I come home and there's a white car sitting outside my house that white car that's the FBI so the FBI gets out and shows me his badge and he goes Richard you know we're about to have the trial we need you we need you I said fuck you I said you wanted to put me in jail for four years he goes Richard we shouldn't have believed them I said you're goddamn right we should he goes hey Richard they just gave you that money obviously you're not what they say I said exactly I go and you wanted me to take a deal to do four years in a federal prison I didn't even do I said I'm not troubling I'm not testifying I said if you want my testimony I said take it off of my transcript and the grandeur and um so I go inside the house and I call the CBS Evening Newsroom in New York City I said I need to speak to Michael Wallace for 60 minutes and Mike is on the phone he goes Richard what's wrong I said Mike they want me to testify in this trial they got people on that jury that their family members work at Corker I go this trial is going to be a sham they want it to go away James they want all of it to go away because they don't want to open up Pandora's box of all those inmates that were shot in Maine they killed the lawsuits and millions and millions and millions of dollars they want this to go away right so Mike Wallace says Richard you started this ball Rowan there you need to do the right thing and you need to testify and he goes I'll be in the front row they're supporting you in 60 minutes was behind me the whole time so I go down to the federal courthouse at Fresno I get out of my car James and the press is all over took a picture pictures here comes the witness right so I get into the courthouse and the defense attorney they're already about a week and a half into the trial the press attorney sees me coming in and he wants to have a sidebar with the judge so they dismiss the jury and the defense says to the judge if Caruso brings up the settlement that we just gave him in front of that jury we're going to ask for a mistrial so the judge says okay well if you talk if you bring up money then Mr. US Attorney you can follow up and talk to Richard about that situation so the US Attorney comes out in the room says Richard you can't bring up the settlement the money they just gave him I said wow the jury is not even going to hear that those people over there are saying I'm a bad person just gave me this settlement right so they have me up on the stand James and they start talking they don't want to talk about what happened they said ladies and gentlemen of the jury this is all in the head of Richard Caruso in his imagination high-speed chases the deadliest prison in America they said it's all he goes Richard what do I have in my hand right here what is this I'm showing you and I said it's a contract of Paramount Pictures Paramount Pictures ladies and gentlemen he is in a contract with Paramount Pictures he goes Richard what is the number on that contract right there what does that number say that you're going to make if this movie with Paramount Pictures gave me I said $760,000 $760,000 ladies and gentlemen the jury $760,000 he goes Richard right here is where he messed up James Richard that's probably the most money you've ever made I looked at the jury I said no they gave me a lot more those guys gave me a lot more over there and the jury's face is like what and so he realized he messed up and he goes to sit down now Mike Wallace is waiting for the U.S. Attorney stand up stand up ask Richard why he made more than $700,000 because they gave it to him but the U.S. Attorney would stand up to clean it up the U.S. Attorney just sat there so 16 minutes and everybody saw they're throwing this trial they're throwing it they want them to come back down guilty and the story, clean our hands with it move on nobody else gets sued that's exactly what happened James that's exactly what happened so I ended up making a movie based on my true life story with Val Kilmer Sam Shepard and Archer you can see the poster in the back called Felon and it came out in 2008 2007 I was a producer on it and I helped write it and I also acted in the movie and it's based on the violence at corporate state prison and I use my story I travel a country now and I use my story to talk about how one person can make a difference it stands by his beliefs even if there's this threat of losing your life I knew that every time I turned the key on my truck but I said God if that happens I'm at peace knowing that I did the right thing so for over three years I lived every day like that but you'd be surprised there were good cops and good officers and the people in the public if I was abandoned by the good cops and the good people in the public I wouldn't have been able to make it James and so I go around the United States and I talk about integrity and law enforcement doing the right thing the code of silence repercussions are blowing the whistle what your word means fortunately for me James I had the power of the media they were behind me 100% they heard tape recordings they believed in me most whistleblowers don't have that so they get eaten up by big organizations big companies they get starved out so my heart goes out to those people that try to do the right thing but psychologically and financially they can't make it they kill themselves they financially go bankrupt but because I had powerful media behind me because of what the subject was and I had good cops good officers and the public embraced me that couldn't believe that this kid was taken out of the state of California the biggest prison system in America to hold them accountable they stood behind me and that's how I was able to make it so you're taking on the biggest prison in America you've got the evidence of the killings, the beatings that shouldn't have happened you've then turned it all into the FBI but then you're sitting there and they're potentially going to send you to prison for four years but you've recorded those phone calls if you haven't recorded those four phone calls those phone calls you would have been sent to prison then and potentially being killed a prison officer would have been killed 100% 100% what gave you the idea to record them? I got to the point where I realized that day I could lose my life and I didn't start being paranoid where I didn't trust anybody so every phone call that came in I recorded it so every time the FBI called I pressed record but everything that you just said James you are 100% right I would be in prison I probably would have been killed in prison but because I had those recordings they didn't do it they were all dirty and this is the way of the world brother so what sort of things, how extreme was the beatings of the inmates and the killings of the inmates while you were there how bad was it for other officers were they getting enjoyment out of just killing and beating people every day? No there wasn't enjoyment but what happens it's like a soldier or a marine when you're at war you become desensitized and the supervisors and people in government in Sacramento are giving you awards and saying you're doing a good job and so you become desensitized so I was desensitized saying hey we're getting better boys for doing our job and we know that they're going to come out and fight that's the key James what you said earlier in this interview Richard why are you putting them out there if you know they're going to fight knowing they're combatants and so they weren't getting enjoyment but unfortunately you'll have bad apples in any organization that will take it too far James and that's what happened at Corcoran we had some bad apples we had some bad administration and Michael Thompson Michael Thompson saw it all yeah that's crazy so because some of the reports were not like I think it was June 1995 30 guards beat 36 black men who were chained and shackled and just beating them coming off the bus is this correct coming from Calipatria yes James did you see the did you see the report about the booty band what was that I sent you a video of 60 minutes in the story about the booty band it was a murderer a black murderer the officers were put young black males in there that would be a multi and they'd give the booty band extra lunches to rape and molest them and so he would be sodomizing these young guys and the guys were clawing at the cell door trying to get out and the officers would just walk by as they're getting sodomized and I already sent you that link of 60 minutes in the story on it and that's the booty band it if you google the booty band it's right there that was the environment change because they did not say that people in the bus were stabbing each other but what they would do is plank bury the knives and some of the inmates hair so when they come off the bus they would give them an excuse to beat those kids yeah you got power over other human beings that are not being checked by an outside eye James and I don't care if it's over in Scotland I don't care if it's in America if you don't have outside eyes watching you and keeping you in check we're gonna we're gonna invent our own code of silence and what we can and can't do and then there's always gonna be people that cross that line and unfortunately that's what happened in this situation is people were crossing the line for instance say an inmate got his breakfast one morning instead it was cold and I said hey my breakfast is cold officer jones and jones just keeps walking and then all of a sudden he says jones I said my breakfast is cold and jones just keeps walking all of a sudden the inmates like well fuck you jones well all of a sudden jones looks back and says what did you say just looking at him jones leaves four hours goes by the inmates getting ready to go out to the handball court yard and guess who's up in the gun jones to shoot him for saying fuck you he might only get shot with the blocks but that's the kind of stuff that was happening was you're gonna face a repercussion for disrespecting me how many killings yeah how many killings were in jones I want to say there were that's statistic I would just be taking a ballpark guest I want to say now we opened like an 88 late 87 and this had only been open when I came forward and blew the whistle like seven years and I want to say we killed I want to say seven or eight but we shot with lethal rounds many thousands shot with blocks there were thousands shot with blocks what was it like seeing a prisoner who was shot and killed I would have him come out I would be I was also a gun officer and I would be up in the gun and they would come underneath me and there was shackles and they would look up at me and they would look out on that yard and they would see their enemy waiting for him he's out there boxing getting ready shadow boxing I don't know what's going to happen now this guy is going to get out tough and go through that door and he looks up at me and says please don't kill me today please don't kill me today you know I got a fight and I would tell him I'd say just don't have a weapon don't have a weapon and I shoot the blocks this is like this right here let me see right here these right here there was five of them can you see that five of these projectiles and they're like little you know like the ABC blocks you have as a kid wouldn't and they would come out of a canister and hit them in their knees and that's what I would use okay I was not going to shoot another man over fistfights and these individuals these comics were getting shot over fistfights and they were getting killed over fistfights no weapons no weapons and we knew what was going to happen so the killings should have been prevented basically if it was only fistfights and no weapons 100% could have been prevented by segregating the yards whites go out with the whites blacks go out with the blacks just like it was but the reason they didn't do that because they wanted to build more prisons build more prisons so to the public they're like oh my god they're out of control we need to build more prisons pay these officers whatever they want and they use the fear of violence to justify all the financial gain well that's all it is brother you've just answered that there it generates money the more prisons the more inmates the more money I think it's 40 or 50 grand per inmate in the UK so the more prisons the more money it makes but for you exposing it and opening it up and changing the game like it takes a lot of strength what's the worst thing Richard you'd seen as a prison officer lots of people get shot worst thing I saw was I was on a white pile and the Hispanics were on the white pile and we had one yard good officer 1000 inmates on the yard and you had about 200 Hispanics working out with weights and I was standing there and this inmate was laying this Hispanic inmate was laying on the bench and he had preacher, he had a curling bar but he was doing what the preacher was off his head laying on his back and I saw this other Hispanic inmate carrying a dumbbell an 80 pound dumbbell across the white pile that he was going to use it and he walks over there by the Hispanic inmate that was doing the preacher curls like this and he smashes it right down on his head and he almost takes the head off it just kills him immediately and the body was just shaking and the inmate that did it just put his hands up, turned around we cuffed him up, took him out of there but his head was just hanging by like a thread right in front of me I mean I still think about it who's the most dangerous prisoner you've been in contact with that I had contact with yeah I would say if you look at his crime if you look at his google his crime he killed a lot of people a lot of immigrant workers and when you when you're around these convicts this is something that you picked up when you're looking when I would look in Thompson's eyes Michael Thompson everybody I don't see evil I see a master manipulator very smart man but when you look at someone like Juan Corona's eyes I see blackness I see darkness I see evil Thompson didn't have that look Thompson didn't Thompson used his skills very effectively very effective yeah to survive so all on what was the outcome then with having all the evidence against the prison system what was the whole outcome do people get convictions or was people sacked how did it work or is it just a case everything swept under the carpet they invited those eight officers and they were found not guilty and like I said they were the jury was made up of people they had family that worked there so after that the shooting stopped because now I shine a light on it they started segregating the yards they wouldn't put them out there together anymore blacks were all blacks, whites were whites Mexicans were Mexicans so they started segregating the yards like I said it changed the system and stopped the violence it was an easy fix James it was an easy fix to where you or anyone from the streets would say why are you mixing these guys up in a yard the size of a handball court when for years they've been segregated in their enemies they hate each other well they wanted them to fight yeah because there's more violence then the more prisons they can create as well Michael Thompson said he could smuggle guns into prison how far fetched is that or is that legit Michael Thompson you know I can say what I said about him the guy did 45 years he's seen it been there, done that and if he smuggled guns in then I believe he did it he talked about using mans' girls I believe it there wasn't much I didn't believe about what he said except being shot 22 times and maybe he's talking about buckshot but I know that my lieutenant Talbot did shoot him in the leg I think he shot him at either Soledad or Chino Michael Thompson if you were standing by him on the street you wouldn't think he's a bad guy and maybe he is because he has cooperated with law enforcement and trying to do the right thing now with addiction and addicts and stuff maybe he has changed his life around I pray that he has but at one point he was a very powerful individual he knew the inner workings and the offices inside the shoe he knew the gossip he knew the good officers, the bad officers the officers that were the sharks the ones that weren't he'll tell you Caruso was one of them Caruso, I was the she-of-a-man always going into these cells but then I came to that fork in the road when I saw a man take the guy's headshot off and say, wait a minute they're lying, these guys are lying he didn't attack anybody so when I saw my people lying to cover up this killing that's what the fork in the road and then they started saying that I needed to shoot an inmate with a real bullet to get blood on my hands to ensure that I would keep my mouth shut and I refuse to do that do you think they were trying to force you into shoot someone or kill someone basically and you couldn't turn against them? Did you think you were already becoming a threat towards your own? Of course, of course but when you have the conviction that you did the right thing and you've already faced the possibility of you're probably going to die in the process of seeing this through I had already accepted that, I'm probably not going to make it out of this right? and even if it was by my own hand because of the stress I used to have a full head of hair before all this even if it was before the stress right? so I had already accepted my fate and recently I was doing a charity event for Prince Harry down in Los Angeles and I was in the hood, I don't know if you all ever saw the movie Training Day with Denzel there's a scene in that movie where those gang members got Ethan Hawke in the tub and they're going to kill him and they pulled a wallet out of there, how'd you get this wallet? I was in the hood and this Mexican mafia member walked up on me, I sent you the video and he said what are you doing in your neighborhood homes and I saw the handprint of the Mexican mafia on his chest so I knew who he was and I said well I'm doing something for veterans he goes right on, I go you've done time in California? he goes yeah in the 90's I go me too and he had shades on, I go where were you? he said Corcoran, I said me too he goes what's your name? I said my name's Caruso brother, he stepped toward me and I had to eat to the hospital he stepped towards me, I didn't know if he was going to whistle and all the homeboys were going to come out I didn't know if he was going to hit me he grabbed me and he hugged me and he goes do you know what your name means in this neighborhood? he goes do you know all the sons and husbands that you saved by turning those guys in? I said brother can I team record this? and I started video team because they had been this is 2019 20 years ago when you do people wrong James they don't forget and karma comes full circle and that's the moral of this story is karma you put bad out there in the world and 99% you might get away with it but God forbid you meet that reaper that 1% and you have to atone for something you did bad that was evil because karma will come knocking at your door is there much suicides in these prisons Richard because the UK there's a lot of suicide but some people say that the inmates wouldn't commit suicide there's a crew here in prison officers called the Mufti crew and they come in with the shields and they come in at 3am, 4am but some people say that people get killed because they're so ruthless and dangerous in prison they'll hang them, leave them and it'll get passed as a suicide there's a much stuff like that happens I will tell you this and I hope that this doesn't get edited out of our podcast but I'm going to be honest with you 90% of people that get involved in law enforcement 90% that people are in are military they are honorable, outstanding citizens, officers doing a dangerous job every day but you're going to have that 10% in any organization and it's going to cross that line but what has to happen James is when they cross that line the organization the department of corrections the US government, whoever they need to be held accountable they need to take corrective action and get them out of there by condoning them and protecting them you're only enforcing to keep your Marsha that you're doing the right thing so I don't know how it is over in the UK but today here we have mandatory sentencing laws for nonviolent drug offenders so if you got caught with some cocaine depending on the weight you might get lashed up for life because it takes the discretion out of the judge's hand because the federal law says if there was this much weight you got to do this much time so prisons were just being filled up with these nonviolent drug offenders you've got to have another answer for drug offenders James it's a sickness, it's an addiction yes they steal, they do what they can they get their dope but I cannot sit back and judge another man that's dealing with an addiction like that because I have friends and family that have dealt with that Who was the guy, Danny Roman who got killed by the Mexican mafia man they get stabbed to death I think that happened at Folsom Folsom prison they had they smuggled in 45 round we had word that these inmates were coming off the bus and I think Thompson talked about this but we got word that an inmate had a 45 round up his ass and they were going to shoot a sergeant, one of my sergeants and they were going to make a homemade gun and all they had to do was put that round in the barrel to strike the primer and sure enough we got that inmate off the bus and we put him on potty watch we made him shit and he had a plastic bag and he had a 45 round of his ass was there many hits out in your own life Richard from other inmates before all the whistleblowing stuff happened you're working in a dangerous jungle I mean Corkin was a jungle and as an officer being involved in so much activity because I'm doing cell extractions I do you got a target on your back but what gets you through James this is what gets you through and this is how you survive is by your integrity and your word when convicts believe that your word means something then you'll be fine if you go in there and you're a tough guy and you think you're going to beat on these convicts and you're going to win in the end they got all day to beat you and you're going to lose I don't care how big you are you're going to lose I was fair I was firm you know if I had to take care of business we took care of business when I came to that crossroads where I saw inmates being killed that didn't have it coming I knew that I could not be a part of this and I threw everything away my career everything my Marine Corps everything to just save lives and that's what I did as I went forward and I stole all that evidence it started the biggest investigation ever to hit the department of corrections in the state of California How's Lake for you now Richard? I could sit there like some people that deal with PTSD that have been in war or whatever and they get involved in bad behavior and say well it's because I was involved in war or it's because I was beat as a child but I don't use my situation that I was involved in California as an excuse for bad behavior now because I believe in choices and consequences if I'm going to make a consequence for bad behavior now then then I'm going to if I'm going to make a choice for bad behavior I'm going to have to face the consequence I can't blame what happened at Corker State Prison and what I went through as horrible as it was and it was nightmarish for years and years life for me now I've embraced by good people in law enforcement good people in our military and I embrace them I go out there and I extend my hand and I make a difference and I make these individuals feel better than what I left them and I do it on my dime and so I talk to troubled youth I go into the troubled youth homes and I talk to them they think they're mirror gangsters and they're little wannabes and I put my 60 minute tape on and then I talk about felon the movie and then their eyes light up and now I got their attention and now they're listening to me and I'm sitting there telling them be careful what you mirror because you're going to have to go in there and you're going to have to have the mentality you're going to be approached and what do they say to you James or your guest go forward for a few basically I'm just out there paying us forward talking to veteran groups trying to help veterans trying to help law enforcement that are dealing with PTSD like I said I do it I don't have a nonprofit I don't try to make money off it I just take them to the lunch share with them as brothers or sisters and put my arm around them talk them out of that dark spot they're in so we have 22 veterans a day that kill themselves and I'm very conscious of that and I've had people change their lives because of my story or because I spent time with them and for me that is payment that they got through today to see tomorrow and then I got them through tomorrow to see another week I motivated a marine to walk across America and we fed thousands of veterans on his walk took him six and a half months to walk across America and I had Marines watching him the whole way and I flew off to California and walked the last miles with him to thousands of Marines that greeted us so one person can make a difference James and that's the moral of my story is that one person can make a difference and I have made a difference is what I did in California how I carry myself now and just putting good out there in the world yeah I think the world needs more people like you Richard you see my good guy you wear your heart and your sleeve the good worker who is willing to do anything for his job and thankfully you open your eyes and help save other inmates because even though people do bad it doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad it's just certain circumstances it's the people who they are but people can change people can better their life for anybody that's watching Richard that's maybe struggling with PTSD what advice would you have for them brother reach out to somebody reach out call call a suicide line or reach out to a brother or a sister that you know will pick up the phone in the middle of the night I know I pick up the phone a lot in the middle of the night and I realize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel I mean think of me think of my story walking the deadliest prison in America with 6,000 inmates every day with a hit on my head while holding my head high with conviction that I did the right thing and I didn't care what came I mean I would deal with it I didn't care if I was in the gym I would hold my head high and I knew that you know what I'll get through today and then there's tomorrow yes but there are people out there that will embrace you and that will put their arm around you and that will help you get through what you're struggling with Richard for coming on today and telling your story brother it's been very interesting a lot of people will enjoy this from what you've done what you went through and what you created to then make change would you like to finish up on anything Richard I just want to thank you and especially for reaching back out to me and doing the research and raising your hand for me and supporting me and my story they may take our lives James but they'll never take our freedom I will finish up on that brother but again mate listen it's a great story and you should be proud of everything you've achieved and what you're doing the film Ferrin it was on Netflix as well but again mate thanks for giving me your time and telling your story if anybody that's maybe wanting to get in contact with you Richard do you have like social media or anything for people that's maybe struggling in the UK they can get a hold of me on Facebook they can shoot me a message on Facebook I'm sure they can go through your show and you can direct them to me you have my contact information and James I know a little bit about your story and we had UFC fighters in Felon we wanted the fighting to look real I don't know if you know who Carlos Condit is the UFC fighter but we had Greg Jackson's Dojo and Albert Perky and we went in there we got all the UFC fighters they came and come down to audition so a lot of those inmates that you see on those yard are UFC fighters but I know about your fighting background and I know about you and I admire you and I admire how you change your life and you're doing good and I hopefully that me and you can maintain a friendship besides this podcast definitely my brother but again thanks for coming on today Richard I wish you all the best for the future God bless you brother let me know if you watch Felon and how you like it I will do Richard thank you brother God bless thank you brother and don't hesitate to reach out I will do it likewise