 i fynd i'r ffyrdd yn ymddangos i gydag o'r amser. Rydyn ni'n meddwl ei wneud am fyddech chi'n gobeithio i'r ffyrdd. A, wrth gwrs, rydyn ni'n meddwl yma, wrth gwrs, mae'n gweithio ar y 25th yma. Jylun yma yn y dyfodol yw'r ysgol yw'r ysgol yng Nghymru, yn Llyfrgellydd. Yn ymgyrch yn ysgol yng nghyrch yn ysgol yng Nghyrch, ac yn ymgyrch yn ysgol yng Nghyrch, She is a textile field archaeologist and academic historian who has done pioneering work on the textiles of the world and a specialist in the techniques and artistry of near eastern and central Asian textiles. I tell you it's quite a town twister. Gillian is also a widely published author and editor including the hugely acclaimed and award winning encyclopedia of embroidery from the Arab world which was published last year by Bloomsbury and has won the four major book awards within this year. We are very, very fortunate to have her fly across to give us a lecture on embroidery. Only on embroidery? Okay, on embroidery, but the embroideries are from the Afghanistan, the Kohistan and so on. They are in the cusp of the Hindu Kush mountains and when I wrote to her asking if she would kindly give us this lecture and I said we would like to cover the cusp of the Hindu Kush mountains and she said I'm all for covering any cusps. I'm not quite sure what to say after all that. When I was presented with the request for doing this lecture, I panicked basically because I'm happy in the Middle East. I know the Middle East. That's where I feel comfortable. But you have to challenge yourself and so I said yes and then immediately regretted it because Marian knows far far more than I ever will on this particular subject. So I'm cheating. I'm going to meander around embroidery that happens to come from this region. But I also want to have a look at embroidery in slightly different ways because what is embroidery? And unfortunately in the West, embroidery is often associated with women doing cross stitch samplers. And when you say I'm into embroidery, you can see the eyes go and yes, right, walk away. It is this which is also a problem for the study of embroidery because it is considered unimportant within the academic hierarchy. And I just want to show some different ways of looking at embroidery that I hope will make people appreciate what a fantastic art form, technical form, cultural form, embroidery actually is. And as I'm working deeper and deeper into the history of embroidery, the more I appreciate the stories behind the embroidery. And embroidered tales. Well, I thought, are there actually stories about embroidery? Forget that one. I'm making them up. And then you come back to it and say, well, yes, there are the stories. And do I look at this talk with respect to geography and say it's this area, this area, this area, this area looks like this area. This one doesn't. On by the way, this may have influenced that, but perhaps not. No, let's forget that. I'm doing that quite deliberately because there are ways of looking at things and standard ways of looking at things. But I just want to push a few ideas. We can look at these pieces as glorious pieces that are in the exhibition and they are gorgeous. But when the exhibition was first put up, it was said that these objects are self-standing and they can speak for themselves. Well, I don't actually happen to believe that. You get one level of understanding from these objects by looking at them. The colours, the designs, the effect, the emotional effect it has upon you. But the study of textiles and especially the study of dress, what you wear and why, is about an unspoken language that everybody here is involved in. Everybody here has clothing on and you're all sending out messages about who you are, your age, what you're doing, what you wish, how you would like other people to see you. And that is the silent language of textiles, the silent language of dress. The fascinating thing about it is the number of dialects and sometimes you get the dialect right and sometimes you get it totally wrong. There is a silent language of embroidery with hundreds and hundreds of dialects. So yes, you can put up a roomful of embroidery, a roomful of textiles and say these objects will speak for themselves. Yes, they do, but no, they don't. There's a lot more behind them, the context, the stories. So I want to present a few of these little stories. So the embroidery, it's not embroidered tales, it's embroidery stories, but yeah, semantics. So yes, these are very beautiful. Now, when I started doing the slides, I produced this. These objects are talking for themselves. Yes, nice caps, colourful, interesting, so. When I did the same slide with the information, one is Uzbek, one is Uzbek Jewish, one is for Hazara, one is for a child. Turkman, Hazara, Hazara for a child, Uzbek, Uzbek suitable for a Jewish person, man. Then they become interesting. You start having the story. Do you go from that? Pretty objects, technically interesting because of all the stitches, the metal threads. But they're not shouting, they're not talking. A little bit of history, a little bit of context, they become, you can put them somewhere. But don't put them too much of a pigeonhole. That's the deadly thing about museums, pigeonholes. These things transcend pigeonholes. Well, some do. You could also have a look at these embroideries from the point of view of the person who made them, the craftsmen and women. And in a traditional setting, well, even traditional Roman period, medieval period, until about 150 years ago, or even less in some cultures, you had to know what the end product was before you actually made it. This concept, a luxury concept of let's see what's going to happen is very recent and very wasteful in many cases. Sometimes it comes up with wonderful things, things that would never ever have been produced in a different way. But working within the craft field, you know what you're making, why you're making it, the end product before you actually start. You know it's going to be a curtain. You know it's going to be a pair of slippers. You know it's going to be for showing off. I'm good at embroidery. I am a worthy wife. It has a function in that form. So the woman who made this knew that she would be making a tent bag, a ydw bag, to go inside as a top piece where everybody could see it and could see her skill at embroidery. It wasn't just, oh let's see what happens, premeditation, knowledge, skill, experience, setting, all have played a role in the creation of this object. And that's why it's satisfying both for the person who made it and for the observer, because it has a meaning. Even if the dialect is such that I can't understand all of it, somebody does. So yes, it's beautiful, but it's much, much bigger than that. Then I thought, well shall we have a look at it in a more traditional technical format? And I'm a good embroiderer. I'm not top notch. I'm not a stitcher. And that is a derogatory term by some embroiderers for people who do cross stitching. You're just a stitcher. Or even worse, you're not even a stitcher. Oh that's the ultimate insult. But know your craft, know your materials, know what they can do, what they can't do. Are they going to stretch under certain circumstances? Will they stay put? Will they shrink? What will happen if I use cotton and silk together? Look together. Knowledge. So the ground materials, the threads you use, the applied items, the techniques, colours and designs, function. The equipment you use all plays a part in the end product. So you've got to have an awareness of all of these items before you start looking at a textile or creating an embroidery. And then you have other items like the local forms and designs, local regional forms and designs, embroideries, other textiles. Other items with patterns, looking at pottery, looking at text. In the exhibition there are some beautiful floral designs which have been copied in an embroidery from the Mughal style. Imported items never underestimate imported items. Because women, craftsmen, whatever, they will use what is available at the local market. So in Egypt, for example, going back to where I'm comfortable, you'll find knitting wool used for embroidery because that was what was locally available. So should you turn your nose up at it? As some people do. Oh, knitting thread. This is not authentic. Or say, no, this is people adapting to what is available. That's a choice. What is available? Stitchers. This is where people go to sleep. Many people go to sleep. I love stitches. Can't get enough of them. And my husband, who is a linguist and an archaeologist and a specialist in Afghanistan, he now proudly announces in private, he knows 210 stitches, but he will not announce it in public. But stitches are a fundamental part of the study of embroidery. And many embroideries only have two or three or four stitches. Or the embroideries can only do that. Or they are only interested in that. Other ones have many more. And there was one piece of embroidery and it was just said cross stitch and satin stitch and nothing else. Well, when you started looking closely, there were 13 different stitches used to create different textures, used to create different effects, used in different ways so the light comes off it. All of these play in the head of the embroiderer or embroiderers, male and female. How will I get the effect I want within the context I'm working? The chain stitch. Did you know that there are six different ways of working a basic chain stitch? Sorry, I've done it. I swore I wouldn't do that. Cross stitch, six different ways of working a cross stitch. And different groups have different ways of working it and it will have different effects and different textures. And then you can get on to the couch, the interlace, the long armed. The joined, the single, et cetera, et cetera. I can talk for three hours about cross stitches. They're not boring. It depends how they use though, but unless you understand the stitches you won't understand the end product and how you get a particular effect. The chain stitch. I'm having a little battle with the chain stitch. If you go to Wikipedia you'll find that the chain stitch originated in China and then came westward on the Silk Road. That's because the oldest Chinese textiles with chain stitch were found there and they're about the 4th century BC. But anybody who knows Tutankhamun, and again I come back to the Middle East, my apologies, he died in 1323 BC. There are 400 textiles in the tomb and I've had many in my hands because I'm the, to my horror, the advisor to the Egyptian authorities on Tutankhamun textiles. It's a complete royal wardrobe that was found in his tomb, but it's forgotten. It's ignored in many publications about Tutankhamun because they're textiles. And anybody like myself who's had Tutankhamun's underwear in their hands knows what they're talking about. A lot of embroidery in the tomb, including chain stitch, beautiful chain stitch embroidered textiles. So if you use the Wikipedia line that the oldest pieces of Chinese therefore it originated in China, well if the Egyptian pieces are 1300 BC does that mean chain stitch originated in Egypt and travelled that way? No, it doesn't. It just means these are the oldest pieces we've found. And this is the problem when looking into the history of textiles and looking into the history of embroidery is we don't have many old surviving examples. We are working basically with the corpus of 18th, 19th and 20th century, mostly 20th century examples. So the more research that is carried out into the archaeological history of textiles, the archaeological history of embroidery the better so that we will have a better understanding of how skilled, how experienced and how creative men and women were in this field two, three thousand years ago. And they were quite sure of it, but textiles are often ignored in an archaeological situation. But once you start looking for them and once you start accepting that they are valuable and have stories they will be found. Yeah, as I said I can talk when I get going. So if we look at this piece from the V&A, done with basically a satin stitch, looking at it as a gorgeous piece of textile, there is another story in here because of the date the ground material would have been hand spun and hand woven. And you get a slightly coarser background material, or even though the number of threads per centimetre is the same, it's slightly different. It was much easier with the hand spun and hand woven textiles to create counter thread embroidery. Once you go over to machine woven it's so fine, so even and the holes between the threads so small it becomes difficult to embroider. So you get different embroidery techniques developing at the beginning of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th century to accommodate imported machine made textiles. A lot of techniques vanished because of industrialisation, although the work carried out on them is hand embroidery. So you have to be aware is that ground material hand made or is it machine made because that will affect the end product. Or you can just look at it and say, I wish I could have done that. The swath region, again a counter thread form. In some areas they work the thread on the front of the cloth and on other areas in India they work it on the backside of the cloth because it's easier to count the threads. A pure technical difference, do you work from the front or do you work from the back? But then you come on to another difference, European women because of partly to do with writing work from this way to this way. Many people in the Arab world will work from that way to this way. For some reason in the Indian world you work from that way to this way. So the direction you hold your needle or your hook and how you hold your cloth will affect the end product. So you've got to know about that. In which way do the embroiderers work? And if you try and go to working a chain stitch from this way to this way to this way, you will realise just how difficult it is to adapt your brain because you're conditioned to working in a particular way. I give lectures on the cross stitch in the Palestinian manner and then you work up, down, up, down, up, down. My ladies want to go that way. Nope, you've got to go up, down, up, down. The same with the Indian textiles, the same with the Afghan textiles. Look at the direction in which the stitches are worked. Is it towards the person, away from the person, to one side or the other? Because that will affect the texture of the finished product. A subtle thing, but it's there. Just enjoy them. But now you're starting to look what sort of ground is that? Which direction did they work the stitches? Was it this way? No, it was this way. Then they went, oh, look at that one, that's going that way. So they went up and down and then with a different, oh, look, the thread changes. I'm going home. Then you turn it over and think, just a minute. And then you get your, an embroidery historian will always have a piece of cloth, some needles, a thread and a pair of scissors somewhere. Just so they can try these things. Does it make sense? And that's the beauty of the exhibition upstairs, is this minimal glass. And that's quite deliberately done. And I fully applaud, even though there are dangers with it, because textile people do this, need to do this. You've got to feel the textile. Your fingers tell you so much. You've trained your fingers. But at least they're not behind glass. Because that's a killer for any textile to be put behind glass. Autumn, the rainbow during the monsoon. Am I correct with that one? Yes. See, I was listening. But then you come into a different range of stories. One, I don't understand the dialect of. Marianne understands the dialect, because she's part of the culture. I can learn it, but I didn't grow up with it. And that makes a big difference. So listening to people like Marianne, looking with her eyes, is quite amazing. And we all have different eyes, just as there's all these different dialects. And that's why this subject is fascinating. More conventional, art historical. We look at colours, designs and layouts. Also legitimate. But when you start looking at these designs on a garment, you have to look at it in a very different way from a flat object. Because the design layout criteria is very different. So a flat object, like the shawl you're wearing, can you just, nice flat object. Give a twirl, Marianne. Beautiful. But by draping it, you're giving it a different dimension. So although it's flat, once you're draped on the body, it changes its form. And the design accommodates that. When you look at a dress, and look at the embroidery on the dress, then you have to look at various things. Basically, with many central Asian cut to shape garments. There's a difference between a draped garment and a cut to shape garment. One is sewn in specific forms, the other is just a long length. These are based on a central panel, which is based on the handloom of that region. What one person maximum can throw to weft threads. So normally something in that region. You'll get it from that to about there. So this central panel historically is based on one length of cloth folded in half. These sleeves, one length of cloth folded in half. Minimum waste of material by doing it in rectangles and squares. So you've got the side panels, which would have been cut out too. So from that, from one big rectangle cut like that, give you the four, minimal waste. Squares here. So the design on this garment is based on rectangles and squares and how to fit it in to a long length of cloth. So function cut has an influence on design and design has an influence on cut. Slightly different ways, isn't it? So if you open it up, it actually does that make it more easier to understand the garment or worse. But again, you can see the central panel, side panels, side panels, cut, sleeve. But how have they fitted the design into this cut? How do they vary it? And that gives you an indication of where these pieces came from. Because each group develops their own forms. One thing that is very noticeable in Western society at the moment, well, for a long time actually, we've forgotten our backs. How many of you have decoration on the back of your garment? Yes, one? Yes, wonderful. But often, and I'm guilty as anybody, it's plain. Because in our society, face to face communication is important. In other societies, there are other ways of body communication. And again, I'm going to use a Middle Eastern example. Working with the Bedouin in the northern Sinai, it is said it is very rude for a man to look at the front of a woman or a girl. So the majority of the embroidery is on the back garment. It's on the dress. And other people can have a look. Because you're showing off your skills. You're saying, I am, I can, I can do all of this. And it's very sad that we've forgotten our backs. But actually, by wearing the drape, sure, you are decorating your back with embroidery. A different culture, a different tradition. But perhaps in 50 years' time, we will remember we have backs. It's quite a challenge, actually. Do you have a back? So, I was having a look at a few waistcoats from Afghanistan. And the Hazaras, they're not interested in their backs. This is a kandahar, a little bit of interest. I've no idea why. And I hope that as more people get interested in this subject, we will find more answers. We have a lot more questions than answers. But how important is the back and the shape? Because these are now cut to shape. And I'm sure many of you will know these are known as waistcoats from the English waistcoat basket. The English waistcoat, it came in in the late 18th, early 19th century and became part of the Afghan tradition. It's a useful garment. The use of what we would class as passmentary is also a very ancient form. But influenced in some cases, by European military officers' formal coats and the decoration thereon. Not always, but sometimes you can see the military influence. This dress is in the Victorian Albert Museum. And I had a little problem, because Pulkari-type medallions recall the embroideries of Swat and Hazara that were used by the British. Pulkari-type medallions recall the embroideries of Swat and Hazara. The bands on the sleeves and the triangular inserts suggest contact with Induscoistan. The braided decoration around the neck is related to Mangalino, Medsoff West and Afghanistan. Well, is it? And this is one of our problems, as I keep saying, not enough work has been done or published on this subject. And so the same stories are repeated again and again and again. Without any indication where this information came from. There's only about three, four books on the subject of Afghan embroidery or textiles. Many books about Indian embroidery, but a lot of them I'm afraid just repeat and repeat and repeat. So please get some research done. I need it. On the other hand, I wouldn't get the chance to talk and feel and work with these pieces if all of the information had already been presented. But the use of appliques, the use of diamonds, shapes, and look at here the back with all of these pleats will come back to this form in a little while. But the emphasis is on this central band, the side panels, the sleeves and nothing here. The basic structure remains. Central panels, et cetera. But look in this example how each of the panels has been given a different design. And that partly is due to swirling. So when you're moving and these things have to be seen three dimensionally in the sunlight, can you imagine? It's lost half of its story by being flat. It was never made to be flat. It makes it easier to understand, but you don't get the feel. Then you have technically the applied items. So you've had the ground, you've had the techniques, you've had the colours and designs, you've had the stitches, and then people start putting extras on the applied pieces, the bractiots, the metal shapes, the coins, the beads, the zips in some cases, all sorts of things to attract attention, to make it more decorative and of the elements. But again you can see different styles of embroidery, the SWAT embroidery with the little white beads. Totally different from the Pakistan northern version. Function. These are three different types of bags. The first one is a turban bag from Kabul. The second one is a chadwri bag, also known as an Afghan burger, but in fact their chadwri is not burgers. But that's a different story. This one has designs that are based on DMC and European cross stitch embroideries. And then this one is also a bag. But what is it for? It's actually for your hair. It's a plat bag, a Hazara plat bag. Three different types of bags, three different functions with designs upon it, corresponding. So this one is this height. The plat bag is this height. And that's why slides are deceptive. Images are deceptive. It's much better to have them in an exhibition or see them in the real. So don't always trust a photograph. It is deceptive. Additional functions, amulets and talisman play a very important role in embroidery and the end products. So a talisman is an item, generally speaking, that brings in good luck. An amulet is designed to ward off evil. And it's an important difference between the two. And many groups do not make the difference when you're writing about embroideries and objects. It's just an amulet. No, some are talisman and some are amuletic. And the colours, the shapes, the positions will indicate whether it's protective or not. But that is another level of information that these objects are giving you if you understand the dialect. So, ground material, threads, stitches, colours, patterns, design layout, function, equipment, all of these are reflected in these objects. But without the dialect, without the background information, it doesn't tell you what these objects are. So the object, just speaking for themselves, no. But when you start working with embroidery, when you start working with objects in general, in fact, and you begin to understand the dialect, you can pick up this information by looking at them, by feeling them within a few minutes of quicker. You have to speak embroidery. You have to speak textiles and use your fingers, which is not very popular in some museum circumstances, so be careful. But the language of embroidery, the language of textiles is important, context. Many years ago, perhaps not that many, my nose is now, my father was a pathologist, and as children he used to take us to museums because he was an amateur archaeologist. And we loved going to see skeletons because my father would start to explain that one had rheumatism, that one had a broken leg three times, this one died of this, that one died of this. He would tell the story from the bones, and he made those skeletons alive by doing that. He put the context there, and it was fascinating. And this is something that we have to do with these objects, or have to do. It makes them more interesting, it makes them speak louder, they start screaming when you have the context. Who made them? Was it domestic? Was it professional? Local-imported, moment? When was it made? Why was it made? Was it an MA equivalent, a dowry piece? What was its function? What was the age of the person who made it? Was it for sale? Was it for a gift? Was it to show status? Time of year, amount of time available. What are the stories behind the objects? I could have put up some professional male embroidery, but I thought I would put up something... Well, it is professional male embroidery, but it's shoes. So, these are made in Pakistan for the Afghan market. These are Pashtun men's dancing shoes, made in Pakistan for the Afghan market. These are originally leather, they are now plastic, nuristan shoes for men in the mountains. Different ground material, different method of embroidery, different function, different location where these are going to be used. It all has an effect upon the end product. This piece is made at home. It's made by a fiance when she finds out she's getting married, a young girl, and it is the bib that her fiance will wear the night before the wedding when he goes to the barber to be washed and shaved. And it shows her skill and her love and her intentions for her husband in the future. But again, if I had just told you that this is a nice piece of embroidery on a piece of white cloth. Yeah? With the context, with the story, we've got a R. Why not? We're human. These are human stories. And it's about the human story behind these objects. In the exhibition, there are several jumbloes from the Indus, well, the Khoistan region. And they are totally amazing, the beauty of the embroidery on here. This is from the Indus form. And for some reason, the short skirts have hundreds of gores, panels sewn together. And there's a suggestion that, well, yes, they're very heavy, but it's because of the mountainous conditions. It's cold, it's windy. But it only comes to the knees, so that doesn't really work. And another one is it's showing wealth. They didn't have any wealth, so they were using all of the bits of pieces that they could find in order to create. Another suggestion is that girls are showing their patience in sewing these garments together. I have no idea. It could be one, it could be any of those suggestions, and it doesn't mean that what is right for one person is right for another person. But again, this is something that needs to be investigated with the amulets and the shells. And can I do a bit of showing off here? In Rosemary Krill's book on textiles from and garments from Pakistan, there's a footnote where she says, and in the Victorian Albert Museum, we have one of these dresses where there are 635 panels in the skirt. 635. Mine has 900. I had a student count them. We put a safety pin in and we counted. It took her two hours. I thought, this is a good punishment for students. But it does emphasise why did somebody make a skirt with 900 panels in it? What is the purpose? What is the actual purpose? Perhaps it's in the midst of time. It just is. It's an accepted habit. It's an accepted tradition. And nobody knows why. But that's another research topic I'm throwing in your direction. And the back is not important because it's covered by another garment that is also embroidered. So when you don't see it and you don't have the time or the resources, you don't do it. And as it's covered, you don't have to do it. Economics of time and money. So in the swath area, that one is indus and this one is swath with different colours, narrow sleeves and only 300 panels. Sadness, sadness. But the same type of designs can be found in other garments from the region. So it's not restricted to one set of garments. The dresses are done like this. No, if you look at this one and take it back to this one, if you look at this designs and take it back to this one and these are embroidered on the back, these are not. So what's happening? Why? Which also brings the question, worn with what? These are Afghan trousers, shorts that come just below the knees. And what were they worn with? Because we've seen that with the dresses, they're worn with something else. It's part of an outfit. Well, actually, traditionally, shall we say, 19th century, these were worn in the Zürachane, the gyms, and they weren't worn with anything because women weren't allowed. Nowadays, the men are decently covered. But the function of the trousers remains the same. These are specially embroidered by men, for men. Kandahar, again, not looking at these pieces in isolation with the caps and look at the drapery, the shirts and the waistcoats. You can buy these or you used to be able to buy these in the markets, done at home, for sale, all for future husbands, sons, et cetera. But beautiful satin stitch embroidery, white work, kandahari work, the caps and the waistcoats, design on the back as well. But we now come to a slightly more difficult subject. Should embroidery survive? Is it part of the natural progress that it vanishes or not? What survives, what vanishes? What is artificially preserved what is reintroduced by NGOs after it had died? What is authentic? Very difficult question. So, this is a Hazara face veil. Can you see here? It's a roue band. Hazara work with a roue band. And these are 19th century images of Qajar period women from Iran with a roue band and this area here, which developed into this, or helped to develop into it. This has vanished. This has not. Some people are trying to revive this. But it exists. We know about it. It's part of the history. The Qazai, a felt coat with long sleeves which used to be heavily embroidered with the long sleeves. Elphinstone, 1815, depicting one of these felt coats. My husband has long worked in Afghanistan and he had never, ever seen one of these coats and he had presumed they died out. It's not mentioned in museum collections, etc. Then, in 2008, while he was working in Afghanistan for the Dutch government, he was an intermediary between the Dutch government, the military and the local warlords. And this elderly shepherd came in wearing a Qazai. So it still existed, even though it's thought to have been extinct for 200 years. The local head man, knowing my husband, said, you want one? Yes, please. He said, well, come back in a year. Well, you had to wait for the sheep to grow the wool, to be shorn, for the felt to be made, for the embroidery to be done. You can't go to a shop and buy these things. You have to plan ahead. You have to know what you're making before you start making it. Anyway, about a year later, my husband went back to this village. The head man came on his shoulders wearing a Qazai and said, please let it be for me. Well, actually for me, not him, me. And I don't know the story of Khilat, the presentation, the robes of honour, where you give a garment to another person as a symbol of honour. This garment was taken off the head man's shoulders and put on my husband's shoulders. And was told, this is the last Qazai we are making ever. It will never ever in this region be made again. This has been specially made for you. So in that area, this garment is now extinct. But we do have an example. We know what it's like. We are creating a cultural arc at the textile research centre in Leiden. It is there. So in the future, if people want to see it, they can. I'm not at that I've got to another form of culture. The Nimcha, the fleece Afghan coats that came to the west in the 60s and 70s and got a very bad reputation because they smelt. I wasn't allowed one. But actually the first versions that came in from Afghanistan were very well made. It was the later Syrian and Turkish versions that were quickly made by western demands that were poorly made. But the Afghans got the blame. I never did get one. A Pashtun dress, modern traditional. The form being made into an Afghan flag dress. Recreating, redeveloping traditions saying I am Afghani. I'm not Pashtun. I'm Afghan. By using the Afghan flag. Hamid Khazai wearing an outfit that does not exist anywhere else except on him. It is an absolute deliberate mixture of garments, styles and embroidery to say I'm Afghan. He was in Leiden a few years ago and my husband was talking with him and told him a story. When my husband was in Afghanistan an old man came to him and said Hamid Khazai those clothes he looks an absolute idiot. But the westerners like it and it brings in money. So let him do it. Hamid Khazai loved this story because he knew what he was doing with his clothing. He knew what message he was giving to the western world. That the dialect in Afghanistan would understand one thing but the dialect in the west would understand a different message and to prove it's the colours of the flag. There we go. I just like this one. Sorry. This is the last slide and this slide has me a little upset because do you remember the jumlow the dress with all of the 600, 900 panels in it? Well this jumlow is on the Victorian Albert online collection which is wonderful. It doesn't have photographs of the garment front or back. It has a close-up of the embroidery and it has a close-up of the skirt brought together in an artistic western stylised, abstract artistic manner. So are they saying sorry we haven't done enough photography but it will come and understand or has somebody made an artistic decision that this abstract photograph is more important than the object? In fact have they created a new line of Afghan art or sorry not Afghan but jumlow art. Thank you. This one worried me. I think it's a very attractive photograph but as a museum shouldn't they also have the object or don't they regard the object as important? I'm just not sure. You can decide. Yes I'm getting messages. I don't know how the book is probably still outside Marianne referred to this the Encyclopedia of Embroidery from the Arab World. This is my meandering through the Middle East with the help of a lot of people and to our surprise the surprise of the publishers and everybody but great pleasure this book is now being awarded several important medals in this case the Dartmouth medal and for those I never heard of it before but I think it's wonderful it is given by American publishers and librarians to one reference book per year only one per year so for an embroidery book we are now being recognized as an important part of cultural history because we've got a medal it has changed people's attitudes I hadn't expected this I really hadn't but it has changed people's attitudes towards the study of textiles and towards the study of embroidery to the extent that Bloomsbury is now considering if we can get the support a sixth volume series on the history of world embroidery yeah it is actually it is wonderful but we need a lot of support we need a lot of help with this Marianne has kindly offered to help with the next volume which will be on Indian Iran has offered to help with Iranian embroidery we are not getting any funding from anybody for this so if you happen to know somebody who knows somebody who loves embroidery please tell them about it because if we've got to do China and I'm looking at my two friends there Japan, India Mongolia the whole world of embroidery we are going to need serious help but we want to make an international centre for embroidery studies this is something Marianne and I are talking about between the two of us we have 15, 16,000 objects not all embroidered but a significant amount is embroidered so we are you're the first to hear of these plans so please talk about it please support us tell everybody you know and let's put some embroidery pressure out there stitches unite I have talked well I do assure you I can talk and talk but I think I have to stop at this point oh that's the address yes Marianne questions shall we do this together because you know more about it than I do let's come on you do together sure Gillian would be delighted to actually answer we've known each other a long time yes questions please no you stay there yes to the lady no thanks for the wonderful talk since I think you are quite knowledgeable in this area I'm going to ask a very broad question I'm very interested in looking at the synergies along the silk road in terms of embroidery do you have any interesting findings in that area like similarity because you can find a lot of similar stitches across silk road yes there are a lot of similarities and there's a lot of differences and various groups are working on it at the moment but we need more finds that are published in detail and that is the main problem just lack of finds there's the new land the Naya finds but we don't have the western finds so we can't compare the two what is happening what is going in this direction and what is going in this direction and what actually is going in that direction because people forget that the pieces are coming up from India into the system when I worked at Khazal Khadim in Egypt we were getting Indian textiles in the Roman period that were then being moved into the Mediterranean and down into the Sudan so if that was happening just there what was happening elsewhere you mentioned the felt coat did they tell your husband why they wouldn't be making them anymore nobody was interested in making them and they couldn't sell them economics you have to get a needle out and try and follow the holes and then find somebody from that culture who will say no you've got it all wrong and start again it's as simple as that talk to the local people talk to the embroiderers and watch them let them do the talking into what we now so you had all the time the trade for 2,000 years and more going back and forth can I give an example of one time you know the jumla dress that you see with the who do this lecture I had asked Gillian if she would talk about the Sasanian and Parthian influences on Kohistan and their clothes and Swat and their clothes well if you just for a minute think about the clothes of the dresses which the Greeks wore and his men travelled along and his armies travelled along in the through Baluchistan Iran, Baluchistan and into Khoshan area they the Greeks to this day wear dresses that look like this but they didn't in Alexander's time but yes but we don't know that for a surety and these are the only dresses of this type that come from this area they come over the mountain ranges because they are worn on horseback the women actually have these very flared dresses with hundreds of hand sewn panels they of course fall very easily comfortably over the mountains over the horseback and over across mountains and when they would sit on the floor I remember seeing this seriously but the only design that I have found which corresponds to what we now have as Greek Zorba the Greek sort of design are the jungle it's completely unique and it's a design sorry any other questions sorry that's why I asked you we do a joint activity I'd just like to make a comment in the other direction that sometimes form or detail follows the material and the really good example of that is if you look at pre-Columbian textiles we know that there's been no influence from anywhere in the old world but they sometimes reach very similar solutions so I don't think we can necessarily assume that because two things are quite similar there's been cross influence sometimes the technique dictates the result since they don't seem to be any other questions can I sort of ask that you thank that we thank Gillian for her wonderful and informative and actually excellent lecture because we learnt so much from it it was a pleasure and that we continue this conversation over tea and coffee but before we do that I should love to present her with a hand woven cashmere shore which we talking of mantles and dressing giving a coat to those who share their knowledge with us I should be delighted to actually put this on your shoulders as our appreciation for you sharing your knowledge with us