 Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, and this is Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. I was the head coach of the Putahoe Boys Varsity Tennis Team for 22 years, and we're fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championships. My book Beyond the Lines is about leadership, creating a superior culture of excellence, and finding greatness, which is what this show is all about. My special guest today is a friend of mine who I can assure you is a man of great character, and the president and CEO of Pro Service Hawaii. He is Ben Godsey, and today we are going beyond human resources. Hey, Ben, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you, Rusty. It is great to be here. I'm thrilled. Now, Ben, you know, I think one of the reasons you are a successful guy is you have God in your name. What do you think about that? Yeah, I'll take it. I grew up in Mississippi, and sometimes I get some jokes about that. I've always gotten questions about it. God see what I understand way, way back. There were some preachers in my past. I think it's clearly an advantage to have God in your name for sure. Now, Ben, I want to ask you, early in your life, what are some of the jobs that you had back then? Yeah, so I grew up in Mississippi, down in the Deep South. And, you know, so work for me was oftentimes manual labor during the summer. I started off mowing lawns around the neighborhood, and then moved into doing construction. You know, I would do construction, you know, just during the summer months, because that was a high-paying job that just required manual labor again, you know, oftentimes digging trenches or, you know, just, you know, the labor help. Then after school, I was a file clerk. You know, so from three to five in the afternoon or, you know, 430 to 630 or something like that, I would file papers in a law office and did collections. And then as I went to college, you know, in the summers, I, you know, probably the most exciting summer job I ever had was I went to Alaska and worked on a fishing boat, a gillnetter, catching salmon out in the cook inlet in Alaska. And that was really fun and exciting. I did biology for a couple of summers, and then I figured out, hey, I wasn't destined to be a biologist, even though I'd studied biology and undergrad. It was time for me to go and start figuring out a career. Wow, very interesting, Ben. Now, I want to ask you about your family. You know, tell, I know you and your wife have three sons. How are your sons doing? You know, I think they're doing as well as can be expected during these crazy days. You know, there are 10 days left of school. My wife is a schoolteacher, so she's both teaching and being a mom, and she's teaching remotely. And my boys, they are 10, 12 and 14, so they're in fourth grade, seventh grade and eighth grade. And they're adapting to school from home as well. Everybody's mastering the Zoom meetings. Yeah, I feel in many ways we've been blessed by this family time, you know, that, you know, we have a lot more family time because we're a lot less busy with activities. But it's also been hard for the kids. They're missing that social validation and social experience. They're missing the athletics. They're missing the chance to be around their friends. And so, you know, we're working on, you know, just, hey, how can we be there as parents for them while we also both have challenging full-time jobs? I think everyone's going to appreciate human interaction so much more once things get back to kind of slightly normal again. Now, Ben, I want to ask you about pro-service. What are all of the services that pro-service provides? So, pro-service, we help employers handle all of their HR and employee administration. And, you know, what that means is a client will come to us and, you know, we will set up a payroll and HR management system for them, the computer system that handles that, and then provide them with payroll processing, HR management and HR administration, benefits management and administration. We'll help them with their employee insurances, such as workers' compensation insurance, healthcare insurance, TDI insurance, things like that. And then we also provide them with a suite of tools and trainings that allow them to build the culture and do the hiring and development of their organization that they'd like. You know, so we've got lots of subject matter experts that help employers in all those different areas, you know, whether or not, again, you know, training on how to be a better manager, how to hire, how to handle disciplinary actions, or helping employers directly with those sorts of things. Our service is designed and our purpose is to make it easier to be an employer in Hawaii. And the way that we do that is by being the best we can at providing these HR services for Hawaii employers. Well, I know pro-service has been the number one company in doing that for many years now and reflecting back on some years, Ben, I wanna know why has pro-service become such a hugely successful company? Yeah, that's, yeah. I think when you look at pro-service from the outside, you know, you say, gosh, you know, pro-service has grown very consistently over a long period of time. But really what that comes from on the inside is consistent effort at improvement. You know, how can we get better, you know, each day, each week, each month, over a long period of time. And it's the concepts that you cover in your book, Rusty, with regards to discipline around the short list of most important things for the business. For us, it starts with, you know, always a focus on service and on our customers. How can we add value to them? You know, are we adding value? We focus far, far more on what our customers need than what are our competitors doing? And, you know, in doing so, you know, we look at ourselves and say, how can we get better ourselves? You know, we need to be better today than we were yesterday just because we thought we did it well yesterday. It doesn't mean it's gonna be good enough for tomorrow. And we're definitely learning that these days as we go through this COVID-19-driven economic situation that we're in today. Well, you know, and pro-service is definitely not a complacent company and you're not a complacent guy and you've taken risks through these years to improve and grow. What are your thoughts about taking risks? You know, I think that that's an interesting question. I think many people look at risk and only look at one side of the equation. I always look at things as, you know, kind of risk reward, there's a problem and an opportunity. And, you know, so I am oftentimes kind of quick to push us into doing challenging things that are perceived as risky and that we might fail or we might not do as well as we'd like. But what's really going to happen to us if we don't do that well? Rarely is it catastrophic. Rarely does it cause significant pain. Most often, we learn, you know, even if we fail, you know, we are always learning from it. You know, we talk about acting like a rookie, you know, and we are always learning from our failures. And so, you know, I take a mindset that, you know, that what is oftentimes risky is not because the world is changing quite rapidly. And, you know, the biggest risk is oftentimes not changing. And that might feel safe, but it's not. You know, it's actually far worse to stay in one place and do what feels like the safe thing. Yeah, and it's great to focus on what you want to achieve and to do things that your competitors aren't doing. And that's what keeps you number one because you need to keep outdoing what you've done and never be complacent. So I love hearing what you just said there, Ben. I want to know about what you guys are doing to adapt and adjust in helping your clients in their businesses during this coronavirus situation. Yeah, it's been a fascinating time, Rusty. It's been, you know, it's obviously tragic, you know, in that if you look at our business, our clients, you know, we serve 2,400 businesses in Hawaii and, you know, our client-based payrolls have shrunk by about 30%. You know, and that's after we've had some recovery over the past few weeks, we had a little bit of recovery. So it's been, you know, just, you know, that's devastating for our economy and really for the people in our community. But for us, you know, we, when we saw this coming and I'd say we saw it coming, you know, a few weeks before it really crested in Hawaii. So early March, we started preparing vigorously for it. We threw our company, you know, into rapid change to prepare for and test all of our disaster preparedness for remote work, complete remote work, 100% digital delivery of services, changing our, you know, our, you know, how frequently we are consulting with our clients and what we were consulting with them on because the laws and regulations have changed just rapidly, you know, over the past couple of months have been a series of new laws that have been passed, you know, the CARES Act being the biggest of those. And we have to be experts on those and we have to take that information and put it in a consumable form for our clients. So like, for instance, our training and marketing teams went from doing onsite trainings to everything 100% digital and really started taking on a newsroom type of an approach to we've got to take this information, digest it and get it out so that it's in the best consumable form for employers. And then our teams have to know this and be able to teach and consult our clients on it within hours of it coming out. Because, you know, when employers' revenue got turned off so suddenly by the shutdown, employers had to make, you know, decisions in hours or days that usually they would make in weeks and months. And so every day was the potential for significant economic harm and harm to their staff. And, you know, and so we had to go incredibly quickly to be able to solve those issues and do it at high volume. So we reconstructed and brought together cross-functional teams in different ways, worked on the daily cadence versus weekly cadences for most of our work. You know, and, you know, we've just been doing a ton of client listening saying, hey, is this helping you? What else do you need? You know, help us understand what you're going through. Just lots of phone conversations and exchanges with clients at all, you know, all across the company so that we can evolve as quickly as we can in what was for at least, you know, I'd say the month of March and April and, you know, a situation that was changing exponentially. You know, it was changing so rapidly that we couldn't keep up. Nobody could keep up. You know, but I think we did the best we possibly could and overall did a good job for our clients. Yeah, knowing you, Ben, I know that you have great empathy for your employees and your clients and I know how much that you're working the hardest out of everybody and you're somebody that you're not going to ask your employees to do something that you yourself wouldn't do. So I already know that about you, but I want to ask you about culture because I know that you have a great culture of excellence. Tell me about Pro Services Company culture. Yeah, so you asked earlier about how we've stayed successful for as long as we have and how we continue to improve and it does, you know, it starts with culture and culture starts with character. Character really is who you hire and how you hire and so making sure that we hire people of high character is, you know, the first element of building a great culture, but it's not sufficient. You know, then you have to be very clear about what are the behaviors and activities that you want that reflect that culture, the culture that you want. For us, when we talk about our culture, we want a positive environment for high performers and so some of the things that we want to see in our culture are, we want to see transparency, people are willing and quick to bring forward bad news. We're willing to share kind of everything that's going on in the company. We want transparency. We want to be highly collaborative. We want to be solutions oriented and from quick to move to doing versus, you know, continuing to talk about things and perfect them. We want to go quickly with our solutions. We want to have a high amount of accountability or we want to have low blame. That's really, really important for high performers. High performers want accountability, but for it to be, you know, a positive collaborative environment has to be low blame. We get to that with a concept that we use called 100% accountability, which is really anybody who kind of touches or can influence, you know, an issue. If that issue doesn't go exactly as we'd like, you know, let's say that something goes wrong for a client and, you know, we need to fix it. We want to really understand it. We want to all have everybody who could have influenced to take 100% accountability for that. So if there were five of us, it would be 500% if you added it up. And, you know, and therefore we're not saying, oh, you know, you did more of this than me. You know, it's all of us. All of us could have changed the outcome. And so let's move on to how we fix, you know, let's really understand it and then move on to how we fix it. And that helps us get to a positive environment for high performers. It's something we're constantly working on. It's, you know, and, you know, we'll never perfect, you know, because, you know, every person is changing. You know, our situations are changing, but we have to get really clear about what are the activities and actions that represent that culture for us and then reinforce them. You know, when we see the positive, that's our primary way of celebrating the culture. You know, but then also, you know, having negative consequences when people aren't living the culture, when people don't fit. Yeah, no, I like what you said about accountability because everyone's a reflection of each other. I mean, you are a reflection of all of your employees and they're a reflection of you too. So it's all about teamwork. And earlier you mentioned about my book, you know, Beyond the Lines about discipline. What other principles stood out to you in the book? You know, certainly the need to have a plan, you know, to, you know, you talk about preparation and planning in there. And, you know, we are, you know, we always want to know what our priorities are, what our plan is. And we also, you know, so even coming into the COVID-19 shutdown, we immediately made a plan and we said, this thing is, you know, it's going to change almost daily. But it is still a plan. It is still, you know, a prioritization of what's most important for our business. And so, you know, I think for, you know, to be, you know, to be excellent, you know, to be the best you possibly can be, you have to identify what are the things that you most need to improve. And we have to be really clear in communicating that in our organization. We may not always be right, you know, we're often wrong. But, you know, it's what we're going to do and then we're going to get information and feedback and we're going to change it. You know, I also think one of the things I really took away from your book was how, you know, you as the leader, you know, really set the tone for the organization. And it's one of the things that I've tried to take away and continue to try to improve, you know, in my own leadership at Pro Service. You know, how can I show up each day and, you know, be, you know, be the leader that my team needs. You know, be the one that gives them hope and inspiration. And also the one that sets the standards and sets the standards in, you know, in my behavior and through my actions, not just in my words. Ben, speaking of standards, I know you have high standards and I know that you are very smart and it was evident when I was there at the, when you got presented the award this past year from Hawaii Business Magazine. And I was so proud to be there to see you receive it. What drives your passion for helping businesses and people? You know, I, what drives the passion? I think I just, I've come to a place of comfort that this is the way I can do the most good that Pro Service is, you know, is a great platform for me to help our community. And, you know, what drives it really, you know, I actually was writing to some clients about this over the weekend. I send a weekend email right now on Sundays. You know, it came from really discovering the purpose of Pro Service, which is again, you know, how do we empower employers to succeed in Hawaii? You know, and it happened on a day when I was standing in our parking lot really, really early in the morning and just reflecting on how beautiful the Koala Mountains were as the sunlight was first sitting on. And Mauna Loa Bay was just glistening. And I was like, our parking lot is so beautiful. It's amazing. Later that same day, an employee that's a fantastic and I came into my office and he resigned. And he, you know, he said, Ben, I love Pro Service. I love Hawaii, but I can't stay. You know, I've got four kids or three and four on the way. And I need to go to someplace where I can buy a home. You know, where, you know, I feel better about the schools. And, you know, and so I'm going to move to the mainland. And, you know, the reasons were compelling. I couldn't get in the stay. And, you know, at that moment, it really crystallized for me that by helping employers succeed in Hawaii, you know, I was helping people live here. I was helping people raise their families here. You know, and I also never know when I'm making an impact. And so, you know, I try to reflect that, you know, I can always make an impact. I can always help them, you know, and, you know, and should think about things that way. Because you never know when you're giving somebody, you know, that little piece of advice or or that pad on the back or, you know, or constructed feedback that that really makes a difference in their day. So, you know, I don't know why I have it. I mean, I guess maybe I'm, you know, something with growing up. But it's that finding purpose. And then, you know, once you find it, you say, hey, how do I make the most of this? And that's what I've been trying to do. You know, how do I make the most of this opportunity I have, which is, you know, to lead this business that has this huge potential to help employers and through helping employers to help our community and the people that live here. That's what fuels me. Ben, what's one of the most challenging situations that you deal with as CEO? I think the most challenging is, you know, when things aren't working out for an employee, you know, when, you know, when, you know, you may have to fire somebody, you know, or demote them or change your job. But, you know, just to use the starkest example, it's, you know, it's firing somebody. You know, you hire them, you have the best of intentions, you put tremendous effort into, you know, hopefully making sure that they're the right person, bringing them on board. And I view it as a failure, you know, as a personal failure that, you know, I failed in the fit of the person, you know, evaluating the fit, you know, or overseeing that they were the right fit and then ensuring that they had the tools and the training, you know, to be successful. And, you know, yes, there are always things that they could have done differently too, but when we get to that point and have to let somebody go, you know, it's important to do that. You know, I believe it's important for the culture and performance of the company. And yet it's also really hard. Yeah, right there. I mean, you talked about accountability earlier and you're taking accountability for that situation as well. And for me as a coach, you know, when my players would lose a tennis match in singles or doubles, I'm not blaming them. I'm blaming myself. I'm thinking, is there a way, should I have communicated better? Should I have communicated less? Did I say the wrong things? Did we have the wrong strategy? Did I tell them the wrong tactics? So I'm really looking inward at myself more. And I know, Ben, for, you know, you and I both know that, you know, great leaders build other great leaders. But I want to get your thoughts about what do you feel is one thing that the best leaders do? Well, I think the best leaders always look in the mirror for responsibility when something goes wrong. And, you know, so, you know, and that's what, that's our job. Like, that's the weight of leadership. It's a lonely place. You know, like, look, we've furloughed employees and, you know, our business is suffering some financial challenges. You know, we're going to, we're totally fine. But, you know, business is as strong, right? And so, to furloughed employees, you know, I, you know, I took a voluntary pay cut, you know, and just took my salary to, you know, to nothing for, you know, for the period of time that our employees are on furlough. Because, you know, it's really, really important to say, hey, you know, when there's bad news, you know, I have to, you know, I have to lead by example, and I have to internalize that. And the same thing goes with client feedback. You know, I ask clients, hey, you know, if we're not getting you what you need, and you have, and you're frustrated, you know, please let me know. You know, I'm not doing that, you know, to kind of be over the top without my employees. But, you know, I, you know, I want to know, you know, if there's something that I haven't done, that I haven't understood, that that's really important for clients, that I need to help our company rectify. So, yeah, that's probably, we could talk about that subject alone, I think for a while. But I like hearing that, Ben. And you know, Ben, you know, besides this coronavirus situation, what's an adversity situation that you had to deal with personally in your life that you have to overcome? I would definitely first say that, you know, this has been, you know, professionally about as big as they come. I thought the great recession was huge. And it just seems like a little molehill now by comparison. You know, but I'd say where I made a personal choice, one that was really challenging for me, was when I left Wall Street. You know, I, you know, I had what was perceived as a successful career. My parents said I was successful. My friends said I was successful. I had a wife and we wanted to start having a family. And I was making, you know, pretty good money on Wall Street, but I just wasn't happy and satisfied and content. I knew it wasn't my purpose. And, you know, it was very hard to walk away from that. It was an extremely difficult decision, you know, to, you know, and I would call it adversity because I had to make the choice to walk away from that. I've had lots of other adversity where just things have happened to me and then you just deal with bad stuff that's happening. But to me that's different. Bad stuff that's happening to you is, you know, how do you find what you can control and move forward versus, you know, staying flat on your back defeated when something hits you that maybe you could control or you couldn't, but it happened to you and now you have just kind of get up and keep moving forward. Yeah, I know right there. I mean, choice is definitely, I mean, that's huge because that sets you on different directions in your life. And Ben, I want to ask you one more thing before we wrap up. What's the best advice you ever received in your life? Yeah, it's a great question. And what I would say is lean into generosity. I'm not naturally that way with some things in my life, you know, used to be kind of a straight tipper. Hey, if I'm supposed to tip 15% or 18%, that's what I tip. You know, but I really learned it was taught over time to lean into generosity. If I can give away more, give away more. If I can support more causes in the community that are important, do that. You know, if I can give advice, if I have 15 minutes and somebody wants to talk on the phone to do that. So leaning into being generous with time and money to support others that need help. That is probably the most important thing. And some people have it naturally. For me, it was more learned. You know, I was good at school and good at doing things that kind of got me ahead. But I feel like kind of expanding and having things become about more than me. And how can I do more for others and be more generous has been the most profound advice and change that I've had. I love hearing that about generosity and helping the community. And you're definitely doing that. And Ben, I want to thank you for taking time to be on our show today. And super awesome having you. Rusty, it's awesome. Yeah, it's great to see you. I appreciate the opportunity to come on and hopefully help some people right now. And can't wait to catch up with you again soon. Great. Thanks, Ben. Okay, thank you. And thank you for watching Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. For more information, please visit RustyKamori.com. And my books are available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and BooksHawaii.net. I hope that Ben and I will inspire you to create your own superior culture of excellence and to find your greatness and help others find theirs. Aloha.