 or evening or whatever time it is now. For those of you that don't know me, which I think there's a couple in here, I'm Romer. My real name is Chris Hurley. All you press people can write that down now because that is probably the most asked question I ever get and it is also the most irritating. So Chris Hurley is the name. Pretty much what I want to do for the next hour or so is go over the results of the third worldwide war drive which is what most everybody seems to be most interested in hearing about. So I'm going to save that for last. But before that I want to talk about where the project started, what we hoped to achieve, and the problems that we ran into almost from the immediate get-go that we started. Then I want to address some of the issues that have been brought up both by the press and by the community in general and go through those and pretty much smack them down. And then finally like I said I want to talk about the three worldwide war drives that have already occurred. Pretty much what happened was last year at DEF CON we had the first war driving contest. The team that won, one of the members of that team actually lived relatively close to where I do. So we decided through talking on the Net Stumbler forums that it would be fun to get together and just go out and drive at the same time see what we could do. Not many people had actually gotten into the whole organized war driving concept at that point aside from just some real loosely organized things that were done on the Net Stumbler forums where people would try and find others in their area. What ended up happening was we posted a message on the Net Stumbler forums just asking if there was anybody that would be interested in joining us. Render Man who is actually right here in the front row contacted me right after that and said that he thought it would be a good idea to do the exact same thing in his area. At that point I mentioned the idea of Black Wave and he talked about Mentat and H-Ratch having discussed a similar idea in the past and from there I went ahead to the DEFCON forums and asked if there was anybody that would be interested in doing this anywhere else. Pretty much I was kind of amazed at the response because it was much more positive that people were actually interested in taking their time to do this than I really would have expected. So we went ahead and took what became essentially myself and the watcher were going to go driving around for a couple of hours one afternoon and it turned into what became the World Wide War Drive. Initially we didn't even have the website I was running everything off my old website securitytribe.com and we had set up everything so that people would just log in to one of the old DEFCON slogan scripts and put their information on there. That was when the first trouble actually started with the fact that the only way people could get their contact information out was by putting their email address on there and we didn't really find that people were real thrilled about associating their email address with organizing that at first. So we moved everything over to the mailing list that is hosted by Disorg. Oh by the way while I'm thinking about it I've got a ton of shit that I'm going to give out while I'm here so you guys really should pay attention because I'm going to ask questions every once in a while and I'm just going to be throwing crap out all day so if you want some you should listen. Actually why not start now? Anybody actually remember who the person was that lived in my area that I was going to start the work? That DVD was from fancy photographs in the vendor area so you should go check them out and see if you want to purchase one of your own. I guess you guys have been by their booth. Pretty much the way I broke this down as far as myths and misconceptions go are myths are false impressions about both war driving in general and the worldwide war drive that have been thrust upon you and me and everybody else by the media and the uninformed notice those two are not mutually exclusive. The first myth that I want to talk about is the one that was very frustrating it was that we're some kind of covert organization that was run by a bunch of shady people that were out to provide terrorists with information. I don't know how many fucking emails I got. Don't you feel like you have some sense of responsibility? No I don't. It's not my problem and it's not like we're given anything out that is not publicly available on 9000 different websites anyway. This was kind of displayed by an article that was run by Info World magazine and if everybody when you registered if you got your CD all the articles and emails and everything else that I'm going to show the full articles are in there. The reason for that is because one of the things that pisses me off the most about those guys is that they take one little thing that I say and totally twist it and turn it around and misquote me so I wanted you guys to have everything but obviously it wasn't feasible to put the entire article up in the presentation but if you're interested all their articles and all the emails and everything that I reference are all on the CD. Pretty much this one kind of what frustrated me here was the initial thing saying that we offered numerous links to other like-minded organizations as well as the cryptic email address of mine for those interested in organizing their own local efforts. Then my next one war driving appears to be an off-shoot of war chalking. Another tactic intended to disclose unsecured wireless networks. This fucking guy had no clue. Okay first of all I mean I emailed him back immediately and I said first of all I wanted to address using a handle as an act of hiding my identity. Anybody who has ever been around me knows that I very rarely use a handle. First thing I did when I walked in here is have my damn name on the screen. One of the few goons here that actually has my name always and always uses my own name. My email address is chris at defconn.org. I mean yes I'm really trying to hide who I am. A lot of people do use handles. They seem to for some reason they seem to have a problem with this. I never understood it you know whatever. The other thing there appears to be no description of the worldwide war drive members. There are no members that's why there's no description. It's a bunch of people that decided to go out one day and drive around where they live. There's no membership. There's no dues. And then another thing that he's specifically addressed in that article was he said that there was a link from a for-profit security company on our site. I went through the website. I went through every page. I went through every page that's not even a public page. How many times were I going to do that? I went through every page on the website and could not find a single link to a for-profit security company. I emailed Ephraim Schwartz, the author of this article, and addressed every one of these issues and asked him pretty much what he was talking about because one of the things that I specifically do is with people that contact me and say I'd like to organize wherever I live before I'll actually list them on the web pages and organize or I emailed them back with this little disclaimer that tells them if you are representing a company and you're going to try to use this to generate some sort of revenue, then I don't want you to be an organizer. Every site that's listed on there is somebody's hobby site or somebody's website that they put together just in a few minutes. And the point is not to have a bunch of people out there using what I think of as a good idea to generate revenue for them. So the other thing is of course what we specifically say in the FAQ, which is also provided on the CD, that we get asked a lot, will you come and do this for me? Hey, I saw your website. Would you be interested in coming out and securing our wireless network? And the answer is always no. We're not interested in doing that. We're not a company. We're not a business. We have nothing to, we're trying to gain nothing from this. The other thing was that he addressed the World Wide War Drive participants' war chalk, the access points. Yeah, that fucking happened. I mean, seriously, I would actually like a show of hands in this room of anyone who has actually seen a war chalk mark. Let's see, that would be one. Oh, we got two. What are there about 300 people in here, give or take? And it's really widespread. Again, one of the things that I specifically put on the website is that you wore chalk them. No, because I think it's stupid. I think it's ignorant. I don't understand the whole press idea that this is somehow a cool thing. So and actually now the two people that actually raised their hands, you could make me a liar here if you come and introduce yourself to me afterwards, then I will actually know someone that's seen. Then, of course, the boneheaded idea that war driving is somehow an offshoot of war chalking. When he responded to Black Waves scathing criticism of this article, he told Black Wave that war chalking was derived from war driving. So I emailed him back, like I said, and I explained to him that, yes, absolutely, one was derived from the other. It's just that he got it backwards. The next thing I wanted to talk about is that the myth that information security industry has a hard time locking down access points and securing their wireless networks. It's not that hard to do, but William Bulkley, he was actually from the Wall Street Journal, but this article was picked up by MSNBC and several other media outlets. One of his major statements was that war driving be devils security types, because it's so cheap and easy to do. Most of the people in here, I'm assuming are here because they actually do go out and war drive from time to time. Do you think it's cheap? I mean, Jesus Christ, man, a fucking laptop, antennas, cards, pigtails, by the time you just get something out, well, you can always war walk like my dude in New York. But I mean, seriously, I don't understand how they can come up with the idea that this is somehow cheap, a cheap hobby. It cost me a lot of money just to be able to go out with a basic setup when I started doing this a few years ago. The media pushed the idea that the worldwide war drive is an attempt to provide people with information on how to get free internet access. That's another one that I get all the time. And it's really frustrating when to me, 90% of the, the press people that contact me, the very first thing that they ask is, you know, about war chalking. And so then if I don't either hang up or kick my computer across the room, the next question that they'll ask me is about the free access movement. They have nothing to do with each other. I mean, I'm all for those guys. If that's what they want to do, the free access movement, go for it, enjoy yourselves. I think that they have not been completely honest with themselves or the press with what their true motives are. But that's between, I guess, me and them, not really you guys. But what I don't understand is why the press seems to be under the impression that we somehow are feeding the free access movement, all the SSIDs, MAC addresses and locations of these access points that we find, because I don't feed them to anybody. From that same article, I wanted to talk about people with knowledge of the location of unprotected access or wireless networks can use it for free web surfing to send out email. That's great. But anybody who wants to access a wireless network that's not secured, they don't have to go online to find out where these access points are. They can walk outside. I mean, it's absolutely retarded to me that they would even consider that this is something that people like terrorists are sitting around going, oh, man, I really wanted to launch my latest cyber jihad, but fucking wiggles down. So I'm not going to be able to. Just out of curiosity, does anybody remember what the name of the Jackass reporter was that wrote the info world? By the way, the IVU guys gave me a lot of shit that I'm giving out. So you guys should give them a little time. You may not be able to find them in the vendor area. They're the really small display. The other thing back to war chalking. Are you getting the idea that war chalking pisses me off? Okay, I may have mentioned this before, but the whole idea that war chalking is there. It's a myth. One of the things that I like to mention is that we did a poll on the net stumbling forums. I don't know a year or so ago that I actually have in my FAQ we could not actually get one person to put on there that they had actually gone out and done it or seen it. So there it is. Misconceptions are very similar to myths. The main difference being that whereas the myths or what I'm kind of defining is the crap that's being spewed by the media, the misconceptions are more people within both law enforcement and the security and hacking and wireless community, the things that they don't really understand about both the worldwide war drive and more driving in general. Who did Bill Boalkely write for? Wall Street Journal right there. Well, then I guess come on up, man. All right, now not a pig tails. First one being that the misconception that the worldwide war drive is an attempt to propagate FUD and scare people, both security professionals and network administrators, I could really give a fuck less if they get scared or not. It doesn't matter to me. I've tried to explain this to people. One of the things the first articles that came out was an article from net security.org that said IT managers should be wary of August 31. That was the kickoff of the very first worldwide war drive. That one actually made me laugh a little bit. What the fuck are they going to be scared of? Our goals clearly state that we make no attempt to access any of the networks. And my other thing is the hackers armed with laptops. The press loves hackers armed with laptops. They're out there looking for these unprotected networks. This project is a statistical analysis of access points that are deployed. It has nothing to do with gaining access to them. It has nothing to do with them being protected or unprotected. This seems to be some kind of idea that we are only interested in unprotected networks. That's absolutely not the case. One of the most common questions that I get from reporters is, well, according to the goals on your site, you guys want people to secure all these access points. Then won't you not have anything to do anymore? Will it still be fun to war drive? First of all, everybody's not ever going to do it. It's not going to happen. Second of all, what difference do I care if it's got web on or not? If all I want to do is drive around and count the number, they can all have web on. I'm happy. Some within the community have the misconception that the World Wide War Drive is a marketing tool to sell products or services. Aside from all the vendors that I'm going to pimp today, that is absolutely untrue. The World Wide War Drive data is being used to contact people for the purpose of selling services. I get this one a lot. To show potential customers how insecure everybody is and that we don't respond to these accusations. This was from a email that came across the Kismet wireless mailing list. Like I said, the email is actually on your CD because I don't want to misquote my good friend. As I responded to him, both on the mailing list and in person, not in person, but individually, we don't sell anything. There's no e-commerce site on there, even though I do have that spiffy, securing your e-commerce site book that was given out at Black Hat y'all last year. I haven't actually cracked the spine yet. Everything that we have on the website, all the information is free. We get it from tons of sources. My own experience, the experience of the other organizers, people that actually just come across the site. Anybody who's looked at the site knows that I don't have every access point in every firmware version listed on there. Because when I first did it, I took the access point that I had and took a few screenshots to throw it on there. As more and more people, particularly Agent Green, who provided me with a ton of information and Black Wave has sent some information to me, whenever someone sends me that stuff, I just go ahead and throw it into an HTML file and throw it up on the website. And then hopefully if somebody ever sends me something that's wrong, somebody else will let me know so I can take it off. We don't have any customers. There's no reason for us to talk about potential customers because we don't have any in the first place. Finally, the individual that sent this email to God in the world saying that I didn't respond to him and that he took this as so shady and it is obvious to me since he won't address these allegations that he is just using this to make money, he gave me exactly 36 hours to respond to his email before turning around and posting this to every mailing list that I'm a subscriber to. It pissed me off. I didn't understand it. I mean, 36 hours. I mean, Jesus Christ, I get like 9,000 emails a day and he wanted me to respond to him immediately or else he was going to turn around and drag me on mailing list. Fuck you. What? I hate these fuckers. One of the things that's going to be changing on the World Wide War Drive site is all you dummies that have sent me emails. I'm posting them. The misconception that a lot of people have seen is the one that wireless networks are more likely to be attacked or compromised during the time frame of the World Wide War Drive. Sands Newsbytes absolutely trashed me after the first World Wide War Drive. They were, them and Slashdot were the primary reason that I moved everything off of Security Tribe and onto its own server. Slashdot, obviously, because they gave me the industry induced denial of service attack and Sands Newsbytes because of the fact that I do actually have a job and up until that point I had been using my real name as the primary organizer. They kind of scared me a little bit because everybody who knew me got a hold of this and was calling me and emailing me and asking me what was up. So I was afraid I was going to get fired. So I went ahead and used my, I went back and used Romer a couple of times. I didn't understand why they felt it necessary to compare war driving to peeking in your neighbor's bedroom window. Yeah, they're nice folks. Canadian Security Intelligence Service, they were very concerned about the first World Wide War Drive. Most of you have probably seen the 9000 news reports about them investigating Render Man and JJ Caxor. Most of the stuff that I'm going to show now is straight from Render Man's site. I'm not going to read this and it's on your CD, so you guys can read it. But I wanted to kind of get as much of this on here as I could. By the way, let me think. Any good questions anybody can think of? When I was talking about a couple of minutes ago, I mentioned Agent Green. What was that in reference to? Just so everybody knows, Irvin Underground is going to be selling Agent Green shirts tomorrow. He shipped them all out to us this week. And I'll talk about the shirts a little bit more in a couple of minutes. But he did do a big price reduction on them. And I think one of the 10 bucks for extra large and above and eight bucks for large and below. 10 for medium, 15 for anything else. I bet you like my prices better. But you guys are going to have those out tomorrow, right? Okay. So pretty much what happened was when we decided to do the First World Wide War Drive, our good fine Canadian friends decided to do a press release. And I told them, you really don't want to do a press release. But as usual, nobody listens. And so they went ahead and did it. And what ended up happening was that they put their names in here. And the CSIS got concerned. They ended up educating themselves after a period of time. And once they discovered through their investigation that nothing untoward was going on, Brinderman's entire website is mirrored on the seat, not your entire website, but your entire directory for the CSIS investigation is on the CD. The main reason being that I wanted to put the PDF from CSIS, their declassified report on there. But the PDF is so hard to read, you couldn't tell what was going on on the slide. So you can kind of muck through that yourselves. The truth about what the World Wide War Drive is. It's an effort by security professionals, hobbyists, people with too much time on their hands to just generate awareness of the need by people that are out there to secure their access points. Now once we let them know that, look, when you buy that Linksys access point and plug it in at your house, you have got some serious issues. If they read, if they go out and they read my website, they read any of the 9,000 press articles that are out there about the same thing, and they say, you know what, I don't really care. I don't mind giving out my internet connection to everybody. That's cool. I don't give a shit. As long as they understand that when they buy it, it is not secure. John Q. Publick does not seem to have a real good grip on the most basic, basic of security. So if they actually see this, you know, even though Bill Bulkely's story was as shitty as it was, it did get a lot of hits to the website, and a lot of people who normally would not have come to see what I was talking about did actually at that time come to the website, and we got a lot of positive feedback about the website, and a lot of negative feedback about the article. I wanted to kind of go through the stats now from the World Wide War Drives. The first one, as you guys know, took place between August 31st and September 7th of 2002. There were about 100 people that participated in that one from 22 areas. We had, we represented six, or we were able to get coverage in six countries and two continents here in Europe, obviously with the two. First time around we had whopping 9,300 access points found, and of those, WEP was enabled on about 30 percent of them. We're, you know, interested with the 30 percent ratio because that had been relatively close to my own personal experience from the war driving that I had done, that it was right around that 30 percent range, and I was interesting to see that that was relatively true across the board regardless of where people were driving. A couple months later, Render Man and a few other people contacted me and said, you know, we really need to do this again. We really need to do it again. This is what we made probably the biggest mistake with the World Wide Board Drive, and that was doing the second one two months later. We needed to wait and actually have a chance to let people digest the information that we had put out there before we even bothered to try again, but winter was coming and everybody wanted to do it again before it started snowing, and you know, Canada, Jesus man. You guys have all kinds of problems. So we went ahead and did it again just a couple of months later. That time, although it was as close to the first one as it was, and partly I would say in thanks to the slash dot posting, there were about twice as many people. We had 200 people show up. This time around 32 areas were represented. Seven countries and four continents were represented the second time around. What was a little bit disheartening was that the, while the number of access points jumped, you know, about 63 percent, the percentage of weapon-enabled access points decreased 2 percent. I'm not sure if that was just at the time because the information wasn't out there, or if it was because we, our initial run with only having 10,000 access points was not really a legitimate gauge of how people were taking care of enabling web on their APs. And since I'm not going to drive around and talk to 24,958 people and ask them, we'll never know. This time around, we had the best response that we've ever had at the worldwide war drive. One thing that I want to do before we go on to those stats is give out some more of this stuff. So let's talk for, let's see what we got. Speed pack cellular PC card. I don't know who gave me this, so I'm just gonna throw it out to the person who can tell me the total number of access points found in the first World Wide War Drive. What was the what percentage in the first one? That's courtesy of a disorg. They have more of those too, so tell your friends. Then the what percentage for the second World Wide War Drive. That was you, yeah. What's from who? Oh, that cellular card was from Unix surplus, Bodo Man, so make sure to say thank you to him for that. War Drive is not a crime t-shirt, courtesy of IVU. Okay, this time around, we announced the third World Wide War Drive long before the event actually took place. We announced that I believe March 31st or something like that, and the one thing that I wanted to do was give enough time between when we said, hey, this is something we want to do and the event actually taking place to have enough people hear about it and tell their friends about it and plan on it. It worked out pretty well doing it this way. Again, we had more people for the third straight time. We had about 300 people participate this time around. 52 areas participated, 11 countries and four continents. If the guys in Australia would actually get GPS's, I could hit five, but they send me all their data with no GPS, so they do offer to plot it on a map for me, but that's really not that fucking helpful. This time around, like I said, we had 88,122 access points found. WEP increased by 4.34% to 32.26. No WEP, obviously decreased 4.34%. The fault SSID that were still enabled on access points were at 24,525, and the fault SSID with no WEP enabled was at 21,822. Again, the stuff that I was interested in this time around was the percentage of WEP enabled access points and I wanted to see it go up, and it did, and also the last four or last three categories there, I wanted to see them go down and was very happy, particularly with the 6.68% drop in default SSID with no WEP. Combined results from all three of unique access points, 113,529. WEP enabled at 31.41%. One of the things you probably noticed about the stats this time around is that the most common SSID found I'm not keeping track of anymore, it's Linksys and there's a shitload. In the second most common, anybody have a guess? Default. God damn, dude, you're winning everything. How about, yeah, default is obviously number two and there's just a slightly smaller shitload. What why would I have coin that I just gave out? I wanted to talk about a little bit, but about three or four months ago Maui contacted me and asked me if it would be possible to do a worldwide war drive coin. I told him, you know, as long as you're going to pay for it, dude, I don't care what you do. So he was he was actually willing to spend his own money and create the worldwide war drive coins. The one thing that we decided to do with them is there under no circumstances would we ever sell them. We will not, we have about 300 of them that were made up and we're going to give them out to people that deserve them and people that we feel like have been a value to the community and regardless of how many times you contact me asking me, hey man, I will give you X number of dollars for a coin, the answer is always going to be no. First 30 people, a lot of whom are either in this room or at DEF CON have already been contacted and are going to get their coins either while they're here and a lot of them already have them or the people that are not here we're going ahead and shipping them out to and again that one's actually on my dime so you got to hate that. You should feel really privileged if I actually send you something in the mail. Pretty much what the criteria was for the worldwide war drive coin was you had to have been an organizer that actually provided results and Jesus Christ could you could my organizers be more flaky. Why even bother to send me an email and put a website up telling me that you're going to send me shit and then don't. I don't think that anybody's really giving you props for your awesome HTML skills. The people that are on here are my three time organizers that did actually come through with results every single time also the authors of the major tools and one of them that's missing that is hopefully in the room I'm not sure that I caught up with and got coin number 31 that's data worm for pocket warrior and I felt kind of bad about forgetting him especially since he won my contest last year. Everybody else are the major tool writers and people that have provided a significant contribution to the worldwide war drive or the community in general and you can probably recognize the names obviously wiggle who has been a gigantic supporter of the worldwide war drive from the time that we first came up with the idea Bob Zilla Arkasha and all those guys have done nothing but bend over backwards to help us out anyway we could and we really appreciated it. Then people that wrote the initial conversion scripts that were used last year or in there and that would be medic who's in the front row. Black Wave I really have no idea why I decided to give that guy one. Airfoot who many people know actually donated all the server equipment for the machine because mine had its catastrophic failure last year and I appreciated that he did all that again out of his own pocket and then Ferf who is actually hosting the site now free of charge dark tangent because Def Con has been extremely supportive of the worldwide war drive this year. He let me give him this sent him this presentation and this idea before he even opened the call for papers to anyone and went ahead and gave me a speaker slot so I really appreciated that everybody else that's on there you can kind of figure out and all the criteria for how you get one of the coins will be on the worldwide war drive site assuming that we continue to do the project for the next few years the criteria will change for instance next year you would still have a three time organizer limit it would not have to be an organizer for all four other things of that nature as we as it moves on and progresses the criteria will change slightly the conclusion pretty much what I'm going to do is I'm going to release the stat generator the stat generator program that I use to scrub the stats out of this I'm going to do that in about 30 days my intended release date is September the 1st what I want to do is get feedback from people on the stats they're interested in between now and then I know I did the ones that I thought were interesting but I have had other people say hey why don't you tell me what this that is or what that stat is so if you would if you are interested in a different statistic that's not currently being reported just send me an email and let me know and I'll go ahead and change the script and add it in there for you once I have that all squared away I'm going to release that under church or Wi-Fi the same place that has war glue from now on worldwide war drive is going to be annual we're never going to do more than one in one year and it's going to be sometime in the summer essentially the late June early July timeframe the same thing we did this year I have to figure out I don't want it to be a static set of dates like you know June 28th to July 5th every year it's not going to be that way but we'll sit down and figure out when is a good week to do it that year and we'll keep it an annual event for the time being the other thing is the data upload and stat generation process is going to be an automated process we were actually ready to do that this time around and just as using technology similar to what wiggle does just as soon as you upload your your data set then we could tell what the results were in the combined totals up to that point the reason it didn't do it is because then it would have kind of taken the suspense out of this talk that's pretty much it except for one other thing that nobody in this room to my knowledge actually knows had these stats been crappier this time around had they gone down for the third straight time then the third worldwide world drive would have been the last one if I if the message isn't getting out there and people aren't hearing what we're trying to say and taking a look and figuring out hey maybe I should turn web on here I don't see the point even bothering to waste my time put in a website together and you know hassling my friends day in and day out say hey dude please man you got to show up on Saturday but because the stats were as good as they were and I was I was pleased that we had at least some increase in and weapon and what I consider a relatively significant increase in the no-weapon default SSID category we're going to go ahead and keep doing it for a while anyway the last couple of things I have before I let you guys ask me questions if there are any who designed the worldwide war-drive coin yes sir real quick good and she can come up Bodo from Unix surplus has got a couple of t-shirts that he was going to give out to you guys so a ck3k come here now come up here you're answering all the questions ask one let's see here what is the purpose of the worldwide war drive generate awareness good job all right come up and get your t-shirt that's still what we're giving up I don't know if you guys noticed this year not but Bodo's got a got t-shirts at his booth for the first time always had had the good hardware and everything but he does have t-shirts this time around so you check them out most of them are actually pretty good if I'd wear it I mean Jesus it must be good the other one Mr. Wave could I get you to come up here please has anybody met Black Wave before he's he's good people question all right who's or who was currently or who was at the time in under investigation by the CSE ck3k stop answering ck3k knows all the answers to all the questions thanks a lot John I don't know if you guys have had a chance to get by Bodo's table yet thank you thanks I don't know if you guys have had an opportunity to get by Bodo's table yet in the vendor area but she should make sure and get over there he's got lots of good stuff and he always does a great job cutting deals for our Defconn folk last couple of things I have on here I'm pretty much just going to toss out as you guys walk out because I can't really think of anything else I want to ask do you guys have any questions for me yeah I'm sorry what's the question make sure I understand your question in other words access points that were found more than once did I check specifically to see if the web status had changed on them no I don't have general area wise no as far as the number that web changed on in other words it had no web at one point now what was weapon able I do have that information and I'm going to put it up on the website yeah good I don't understand what your question is what okay well thanks that was the awesome statement next year you should speak yeah that is a highly guarded secret it's not as good as converges I don't know if you saw his car or not it is incredible but I have spent several dollars here and there on stuff yeah I'm in probably for somewhere between five and eight thousand dollars all told so that that's without the car I already had it yes that would really be absolutely against everything that I would even consider doing the information's out there all the vendors the primary vendors know about the site I you know see them in my web logs all the time in my access log so I know that they're coming if I could if I go to them and contact them then I'm a step away from doing exactly what I don't want to do which is then offering to help them and the only help that I want to provide is information yes yes yeah this will probably be the last time that web only is generated another thing that I wanted to mention too is the web enables statistics I'm not foolish I understand that there are a significant number of access points out there that are running some secondary authentication protocol and that's why they don't have the web turned on since I have absolutely no way of figuring that out I can't report on it but I would figure that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of two or three percent either way that you could let those numbers sway yes sir as far as what information they're being fed no I know that I've been contacted by certain three-letter organizations with questions about the worldwide war drive they have been very cool with me I did not have the negative experience that that render man did the they have also been very clear in their response to the legality of war driving then we made sure to put that information out and pretty much every form and every mailing list and every website that we had a chance to do it on but as far as specifics with what information they are getting or what misinformation they're getting I really don't know I was more look talking about the misinformation that they're spreading anyone else alright I have got several of these exceptionally annoying DOC whistles up here they're really the kind of thing that makes Zach real happy if you go up and blow it in his ear I've got those I've got another worldwide war drive t-shirt I've got a whole bunch of wiggle stickers and I've got two of the dog tags from the war driving contest for people that did not get a chance to participate in that come on up and get some shit on your way out and thank you very much for your time