 All righty. Hello everyone. Thank you guys for tuning in. Hello. My name is John Hammond Which I'm sure you might already know considering hey the YouTube channel that you're watching But this is a special video This is something new and this is something different because I am joined by my friend here Christine. I Am kind of approaching this as a cyber security guy a cyber security person and Christine is kind of joining this conversation as a recruiter as a talent acquisition specialist and as someone that's in the industry and Hopefully we can have a very cool conversation ask each other a couple questions. So we can Break down the There's there's a lot of stuff to it, right? There's a lot of stuff to unpack between how does Cybersecurity and our industry see talent acquisition in recruiters and how does that look on the other side? How does talent acquisition kind of deal with us as people that could be hires or employees employers etc back and forth? Disclaimer before we kind of dive into it We don't represent our current employer our company We aren't trying to speak on behalf of anyone. These are just two people Having a conversation together so we can all be a little bit smarter on this and help out the community Hopefully you can get some gold nuggets out of this, but uh We've been trying to do this for forever, by the way, we've been planning this for months We have yeah every single time we've tried to record something it either something would go wrong One meeting would come up. Maybe there was a babysitter that wasn't there whatever the case might have been We couldn't get around to it. So I am very very excited to do this Kristina. I hope you are too. Thank you Absolutely. Thanks for doing this. Cool. What are you? Should we just kind of dive into it? I can kind of kick off some questions Go for it. Cool So I'm hoping we can do some back and forth informal casual Just getting to know each other and hopefully talking about good stuff That will be helpful for others my community your community etc My first thing to kind of get us started is Why are you passionate about what you do about town acquisition about recruiting? What do you love about this stuff? Well, that's an easy one for me. So recruiting really is um for me It's a big puzzle. So I like solving puzzles and people are every single one is a different puzzle And so particularly with this you're looking at who is the right person for the job That's available and interested at the same at that time. And also how could they potentially impact an organization? So really it's just putting those puzzle pieces together and finding the people is Is a big challenge finding the right people is a big challenge. So it's fun. I like that solving that problem Cool. That's very cool. What about you? Yeah, why why are you in the field? You're in? Okay, so I I really like computers for one thing. That's probably pretty obvious all kind of nerdy geeky things Um, and I I wanted to get into programming because every every every kid, you know, they're growing up They'd be like, oh, I want to make a video game. I want to hack computers Yes So I started to tinker with that to explore that And it was a lot of fun. It was just enjoyable when it turned into more of the cyber security I don't know good and bad not just not just make stuff but break stuff I just fell in love with how I don't know how interesting it was and how curious it was I feel like I like to understand things and know how things work. I'm very questionable I am not questionable. I like to question I'm just inquisitive and I think that's been a really really fun thing about cyber security Is that there's always something to learn and grow and I'm always asking questions Yeah, I assume we have some similarities where each of your days are never exactly the same And that's big for us as well. I mean recruiting although most people don't think that way but recruiting has a a really broad spectrum of what you can specialize in and there's a lot to actually Um try on different areas. So yeah, cool Cool. Awesome All right, so you were nice enough to go out there and Kind of pose your audience um and ask them what questions they had around talent acquisition And you have some really really good questions and you have a fantastic audience a really really engaged audience So they post some really really interesting questions. Do you want to Pick off of any of those to start off with? Yeah, uh, we certainly can Let me provide a little bit more background and context on that right because you and I have been planning to have this conversation For some time And I put it out on linkedin. I blasted on twitter. I just screamed about it on social media and the response was overwhelming We have almost 250 responses how many questions you want to tackle or I could tackle for both of us to address And for one thing, I don't think we can answer All of them properly. Uh, and obviously do you want to? Yeah And obviously I think a lot of them are very very niche and specific. Uh, and sometimes that's really hard to address Um, right It's interesting because there's no one size fits all answer But there are also a lot of broad strokes that we can we can kind of safely say Um, what do you think about that? I I definitely think so. I think, um, some of the questions that popped up, um, particularly around Um Certifications degrees, um, let's let's talk about that, you know, do I have to have a certification? Do I have to have a degree? Do I have to have a specific degree to apply for a job? There are a lot around those And I think those you really need to look at is not just that specific item But also look at the companies you're Looking to work for Is this typical with their jobs? Um, do they all require a degree? Do they all require a certain certification? Then maybe you want to go down that path? Um, but There are some very specific ones that were they were asked that I don't think we can answer But it's more of a broad topic When it comes to degrees, um experience and Um and so it's because it really depends on that company and what they're looking for Um, and is that company a match for you? So that's one of the ones I want to Talk about immediately because I think that gets asked a lot Um, do I need x y and z for a job? Well, I mean it depends on that job in that company what they're looking for so, um That one's important. What about you? Yeah, I pulled it up on the screen And I I realized I'm sorry. I don't know if you can you probably can't see it You're just still staring at me, but I tried to bring it up So the video that we're capturing, uh, we can see what some people might have asked one one that's kind of interesting It's asking. Hey, are there any obviously everything echoes what you had said. It's very specific What about certifications? What about a degree? What about training? And that varies from Position to role to company etc etc. One thing that someone asks is hey, are there any Entry level positions even available or is that just some myth? Everything that everything that I seem to see is asking about oh, I need five to ten years of experience Or I already need to be some seasoned veteran on this on this whole concept Okay, so there there absolutely are entry level positions however Each company is different and and the way they view entry level positions and let's let's take it a step back. So When we look at job descriptions as a whole recruiters know it Let's let's say job descriptions suck on the most part for the most part. Um, you know They're who whose responsibility is it to write the job? Um, and the recruiters typically the one that's posting it But who's responsible for the data that's in there and making sure it's accurate And it's what's really needed for the job. So when you look at that Um, you may see things out there that really tell you that this job is not junior You know when you see a job out there that's three years of experience and then they're calling for a CIS SP Well, obviously that's not junior, right? We know that um That doesn't mean that that recruiter knows that but it got lost somewhere in translation So there there is that issue um with job descriptions what I would say from there though is that you need to look at a few things One is Is just applying for the job the best way to get into an organization Um, and the answer to that is going to be no We know that referrals Whether it's someone you really know or someone through a network That you know is the best way a social referral is the best way to get into a company So I would look I would go that route and I would connect with people with that organization Um and find out really what's what's needed Cool cool Do you think there are any other kind of specific ones we should dive into on on that or A lot of these are asking. Hey, uh, what about different countries of what about even a different continent? And unfortunately, I can't particularly speak to that No, I can't either on that one um That one's difficult. There was one around um Knowing multiple languages. I think that's definitely a benefit to an individual if they know the multiple languages um But I haven't seen a ton of requirements that require that but that's just my experience um There was one around What would be your ideal candidate? Oh, yeah And I thought I thought this was interesting because this is kind of a broader question and and I think there's several ways to look at this one is you know One is take a look in and and google yourself Look at what you're putting out there as publicly available information. So what does your image say? Literally the picture you have um, what? What things are you following publicly online? What is your linkedin profile say? There are several people that I've connected with that actually their profile talks completely about a different type of role But they really want to be in cybersecurity. Well, if that's the case you really need to move your profile to showing up As a cyber security profile, even if you're looking for an entry level role um So the ideal candidate is one that for me answers the questions Um to make my job easier and what is that my job as a recruiter is to fill jobs There are a lot of us that are really nice and will help help help people out and and to provide Additional information on whether it's your resume or resume building or networking or kind of like what we're doing here Um, but the same time my main job is to fill my jobs So You know, I'm not the best for career guidance. You know, if you want to start there There's plenty of people out there. Katya Dean are going to You know cyber seek are one of those places and and getting additional information There's tons of people you should network with obviously john. You're one of them um, but you know That's really important But having a profile that answers those questions for me if I have a job and it says You need x y and z skills or x y and z experience. Do you have that? um, and then also the flip side of that is If I go to that profile on linkedin, you know, are you talking about things that you know in my organization? Uh, we don't want to cover those things, you know, um, maybe I don't know. Let's let's give an example of things that we Wouldn't necessarily see like I I necessarily don't want to know about a person, right? So if if it's publicly available make sure it is what you want to present to an employer, I guess I'm So a person that answers those questions Um, and is easy to contact and easy to follow up with so yeah Okay, those would be the big ones cool This is cool because now my mind is starting to go into different places of things that There's a lot to unpack right because when when I think about us I guess my my World the culture of the community the scene in infosack or cyber security or some of that And I'm obviously not trying to speak for anyone or making any Or I don't mean to be making any big assumptions, but I think there are two different kinds of people some that will be very very open and very very willing to Talk about themselves or or discuss and showcase and present the stuff that they do out online Like I think I'm a stupid fine example of that. Cool. You can see me screaming on twitter You can see me everywhere on like then obviously the youtube thing Um On that same coin There are some people that really really want to keep that anonymity and want to remain private And we'll work with an alias just because they don't want to be out on the internet From what you're telling me it sounds like well that that doesn't really help if you're job hunting, right? right, right, I mean, you know Look at look at what recruiters do they're gonna do You know, if you're doing a pen test, do you do the most difficult rabbit hole chase first? Or do you do the easiest thing first the easiest thing to do is to check linkedin, right? So we start there first and do we find the nuggets to solve our problem there? you know cyber security on a whole is is Harder in that regard just like you just talked about there are plenty of people that don't have a profile online anywhere um But if you want to be found then You have to be found and it's okay to make that judgment either way. There are ways you can work around that um But you know in that case that's if you're somebody who says hey, I don't want to be online um That's where I would connect through You know the different b-sides organizations the different meetup groups any of those groups that you can connect with people And let them know that you're looking for a job um Okay, so you don't have an online profile, but you're connecting there and making those connections and hoping that you know That person can lead you to the right position or your next job. Um, so that networking piece is going to be big there with those groups Cool, that's very cool. I like that. It's like I always tout kind of the same thing. Hey go to go to b-sides Go to the conferences and events and I remember you told me hey, you were going to Something I don't know it was b-sides tamper or where it was but you were hosting a resume review workshop. Yes. Um, so one of the humongous questions we see all the time is okay on our resume What is the most important thing? Do do they care about the degree? Do they care about? Experience they care about certification and if I'm echoing kind of as what you spoke to earlier Forgive me, but I know all the time they ask hey, I don't have this certification. Can I still get a job? I don't have a bachelor's. Can I still get a job? right Anything on that or Yeah, I mean it's going to depend on the company. Yeah, okay. Um, yeah I mean each you know with the directive that came out recently from the government in regards to um, moving away from Requiring degrees for all positions. I think you will slowly over time see that start to transition Um, you know, particularly we know around government contracting. You've got to have those basic qualifications Um, and I think you will start to see that change over time and that's fantastic because there are plenty of people that um, you know a traditional education didn't work for them That doesn't mean that they're not a valuable employee and don't make an impact in an organization. So, um, When I look at a resume I take it another step back. I look at immediately Where is my eye drawn? You know, is there too much information? Do we have 15 different fonts? You know, is there any white space on this resume? One of my friends, um, Mike Coney talks about, you know, your eye looks for the white space So if your resume is covered in so much text, it's like Where do I even look? Where do I start? Um, so Your contact information is so important. Have that upfront. Um, You know, do you have a LinkedIn profile? Great. Add it there. Are you active on github? Great. Let's put it there If you're not, okay, that's fine, too And then from there your resume really needs to speak to the job that you're Going for so the job you're applying for going for so, you know, when you look at this You're going back to what is the story I'm trying to tell an employer Does this resume and it's very hard to look at your resume objectively, right? I mean even for me This is like I have to have somebody else look at it. Um And and you may find you're going to have to go through several revisions You know do a google search on cyber security resumes or You know, sock analyst resumes and see what's out there online As a google image and look at them and see which ones that your eye is drawn to and and which you're like, oh Like that's way too much. I think it gives you a visual and then also how they're focusing their careers Also look in the organizations that you're looking to work for Hey, do those people in that company list some of the information and do any of them have them as attachments on their LinkedIn profiles that you know that they've gotten a job already. So what does that look like? Um, so you've got your contact information up front Um, is the degree and the cert a requirement of the job So if it is and then you want to list that in there the first three quarters of the first phase of your resume is the most important So every and I know people don't want to do this because it I get the question all the time You know, do I have to rewrite my resume for every single job? No, you don't have to rewrite your resume, but you may have to move things around on it. So One you need to know the impact that you've had. Maybe it's a school project Maybe it's you know, you're doing hack the box and this is what I've done here You need to know what your impact is in each of those positions And then and how it relates to the potential job that you're looking for so Hey, you know, they're going to require x skill, you know, it's one of the top requirements on the job you need to say The related information of how you relate to that job and when you look at hey If I've got 10 bullet points if you're going at john's old resume versus his new resume, which is the paragraph format but if you're going bullets, you want to make sure that those are in order of um, what matches the job skills so that Again, you're making a recruiter's job easier in hr and admin whoever it is that's looking and saying yep This person has x y and z for this job because trust me Despite what people think we actually want to fill those jobs and not have to look at 50 more resumes. Um Not that there are 50 cyber security professionals applying to all of our jobs. That would be a job but You know, but at the same time, you know You want to answer those questions up front for them. That just means moving a bullet around But what you know or a sentence around so what are you saying in those sentences? This is important. You need to speak to the impact that you've made versus just the skill you had there um, I find a lot of times where At kids and I say hey, they'll they'll blurt out a statement to me. I'm like, okay complete the sentence What are you actually telling me? This is what you need to do there You need to give a full complete picture of what you're talking about now. I'm not saying you need to have a 10 page resume Um, by the way, I don't go by the standard the standard of having a one page resume Don't follow it two pages is fine If you have more experience longer is fine as well But the first three quarters of the first page is really in is key to speaking to the job Cool. So it was a really long-winded answer for answering the question No, I mean you threw in a really good one because people are always going to ask like how long should my resume be And I know it's like a silly and annoying question to probably hear or ask but One page isn't I don't think enough three you kind of sometimes I don't know if you could ride the line and just looking like a jerk or I don't know two two is is perfect. You're saying Yeah, two is fine. I mean look whenever I know when I get a phd resume is typically a lot longer Um, it just depends on the person their years of experience. Um, you know, if you look at a federal resume A federal resume wants every bit of detail for you to not leave anything out in your experience Um, you know, when you're looking at at a tech company, they're probably going to want a shorter resume But you want to make sure that you're not leaving out things that are required in the positions that you're looking for Cool. So yeah, that's key You uh, sorry, you mentioned hack the box though and that that kind of raised my eyebrows because Do you think stuff like obviously a lot of us like to train like we like to play we we go through all those exercises and those war games Is it worthwhile putting in like oh my rank on hack the box is this my try hack me thing is this or Does that useful do some people even know what that is or care? Yes, it depends on the level the recruiter. Okay, but um, so you're doing two things with that one is you're showing that Outside of my job. I'm interested in what I do. So that's that's one piece of it. Another thing is that you're providing additional Keyword and bullion capability when you add additional words to your resume So if I go and look at you know, I'm gonna do a search for people who are doing that Obviously it depends on type of a recruiter you are right and the company that you're working for but I'm gonna dig deeper for those tools those different keywords And and put those in my searches. So if you have them, you're gonna pop up in my search Yeah, it's important. Okay so If I'm asking you too many questions, forgive me. I mean we can totally we can totally change the Change the game in a moment, but I do want to ask because now that you mentioned Oh the search, right this ominous kind of thing that you You need please please help kind of fill me in because I don't know what that recruiter or talent acquisition process Like looks like and and obviously there are some people that might ask like oh are all the Recruiters super selfish because they don't care if you get the job or not They're they need to do it for their own quota. How does that work? If I may You know, that's another one. I I'm not gonna answer well because it totally depends on the organization Um, can I interrupt you before we jump in real quick? I see a timer notification on zoom that says, hey, this will end in 10 minutes upgrade now to remove the time limit Um, can I tell you when we're getting close to that cutoff time and then we can just rejoin if you want to keep talking Yes Um How does the talent acquisition and recruiting process work? What are the deep dark squirrely secrets? um, so First of all baseline. So there is no degree in talent acquisition. So each person's skill and and Um, training is going to be very different. Um, Like you I'm really interested in in my field of choice So I spend a lot of my free time reading about it attending conferences Working online with other people to better who I am as a recruiter. So That is just a base of information. So you're not going to get a standard of of service and or skill Which is a challenge for us and we know that um Secondly, there are different types of recruiters that are going to reach out to you. Um, and It's okay to have a conversation with them and what I mean is you know, so for instance myself I love what's called sourcing for us. So I love the search for someone. Um, I like the Pulling publicly available information. I like doing that deep dive and looking for someone. Um, not everybody does that um, they're recruiters that are compensated based on A person being hired and there are people that are not it just depends on the organization and they're you know Kind of compensation structure for those recruiters Um, so the actual process of finding somebody could be very different as well. Some recruiters are You know, really like linkedin and job boards Um, and some recruiters You know, really are big on the different social media platforms Um, you know, and then some recruiters like doing just x-ray searches. I mean just depends Um, and of course there's there's tools on the market as well together to get Additional information from people. So whether it's you know, getting just their contact information So if you look at kind of the oscent level that's um Not the technical side of it, but more of just finding information. Yeah. Yeah It's still very cool to me. I guess I just never thought of it, you know, like I never think about my work is cool. Come on I just I don't know you never I never think about other the real databases that people used to find You to help honestly Yeah, I mean, yeah, you have to look at like the the history of recruiting right the the market used to be in our favor Now with the internet you have to be fast and smart about what you're doing and particularly with You know a group of individuals that may or may not be online Um, and and are also getting contacted left and right by different organizations and for positions that may or may not be right for that person. So we won't go there, but You know, no, that's a challenge. Um, but we know that that that um How quickly we get to you and how effective we are in our messaging is is very important Okay. Yeah, okay um So on that note um Let's talk about getting in contact with and we're a group. We're lumping you into everybody into cybersecurity, by the way so, um, we know you don't specialize in everything, but um You are easy to find right? So you're one of those golden nuggets those We used to call purple squirrels now the unicorn. So you're one of those people that is easy to find online how um You know and recruiters love to find different ways to contact people So whether it's, you know text or email. That's not original, but um phone calls Which do you prefer and do you hear others talk about that? Okay. Yeah um So for me personally um And I guess I have my own repertoire of of work experience or places. I've been um, and it's just how I like to be reached out to uh, I prefer Classic email in all honesty Just just because it also gives a little bit more control to me and then like I'll respond to you when I have time to respond to you and and If or if I even want to I could be a jerk and just totally ghost you which I'm sure is another another kind of worms We could we could get into. Um the the phone calls I Don't like as much unless we have planned that or already coordinated like hey I can chat with you at this specific time um And a lot of that probably comes from me In in past work experience like obviously I have worked in like a skiff or a secret space where I don't have the available I literally cannot answer your phone call unless you tell me to go leave Uh, and that's just part of it Texting texting honestly. I've never actually had A conversation with like with a recruiter in that realm I think that would be very cool personally just because I think that adds a little like personal touch and it makes me feel like Hey, we're bros. We're buds. We're I would like that But I guess it would kind of depend on the approach if like hey, are they being friendly? Are they willing to are they am I are they visibly on my side to help me and kind of help me? So the flat stupid easy answer in my case is I just prefer Emails or a silly linked in message But I mean as you as you might say well, then I could very easily not respond And that probably doesn't help you on the recruiter side Right, right. Well, what about the well Think in terms of so say that you do do open an email Are there things that immediately when you look at an email Are going to turn you off or Are going to potentially turn you on to actually reading it. Yeah, okay I Truth be told right transparency I am a greedy guy Like first thing i'm going to look at is the salary like absolutely the first thing i'm going for Is the number is the compensation because sure we're talking about cyber security We're talking about red teaming pen testing adversary emulation blue team sock scissor. I don't know All that stuff Is typically a well funded industry Right, so if it's if the number is not either Where i'm at Or close to it and they're giving me other benefits. Okay remote work is something that I personally care about that might differ for some people Um, but and obviously in the different situation Maybe someone has a family that they want to be either close to or they need they care more about benefits and specific day to day compensation etc That is that is my Immediate I grab it is the salary and the number so I need them to tell me if that is not included I will either ignore you Or wait a very very long time and then be like, oh, hey actually what was the salary on that? And i'll be direct i'll be like straight up like i'm not going to give you the time of day Unless you can be honest and tell me what it is Um, it should be told that that's my transparent answer. Anyway Yeah, so I mean when you look at that, um There are a lot of organizations that don't allow recruiters to put that information in email so What would you suggest for a recruiter in that case that literally can't put the resume in or the resume your The compensation in a actual email interesting. I don't I didn't know that was like a limitation I mean that makes sense that makes sense But are they are they capable to kind of put a range or can they safely say like hey north of six figures or Like south of six figures even or can they put a window? Is that kosher? It depends on the organization, right? So it depends on how you're allowed to phrase it um Some organizations want to make sure that you're interviewed before they talk about that compensation piece or confirm a range for you Um, you know if there's other contingencies to that position They may want to clear those first before they can give you compensation A lot of times what it will look like is they will ask for your desired compensation. What's important to you and that that Um process and that you know if you were to get an offer What amount would you be looking for and then they can kind of tell you yes You're in the range or know your way outside of it um That is is typically what you're going to see and I think that's a challenge because um I think there's a miscommunication there and I think what happens is a lot of times that people think that If we don't offer someone the highest salary like we're reaping some reward from it I've kind of heard words around that and you know Typically, that's not going to be the case. Um We want you to fit the job so that we have less of a job finding the next person, you know, the you know To fill that role. Um, so yeah, I don't want to cut you off immediately, but I'm seeing zoom Yeah, zoom tell me. Oh, it's it's about go time. So I will restart this conversation if that's totally cool with you Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, stand by Okay, awesome. Sorry about kind of that flop there. We're doing this through zoom We've been trying to figure out. Hey, what what actual conversation platform can we can we get this right on? So zoom looks good, but it's also hurting us on time That's it is. Yes, it is taking a little longer to tell you it's good All right, so we're talking about uh, I was you were asking me a little bit about salary and you were telling me like Hey, that's not always something that Recruiters can discuss or have that conversation with yeah, we can't disclose it, right? Okay, right So not until you a lot of organizations won't let you um the recruiter give that information until you've been maybe technically assessed um And kind of proven that you are serious about that process So you're going to go through filling out an application or maybe you've gone through an interview a manager Um a technical interview or something like that. That's an example That's not required for all but be aware that there are maybe organizations where they can't tell you what the compensation is. So yeah Absolutely Have you um, have you come across that at all? I think so. I mean so I I have been in through a few phases or transition points. We're like, hey, I'm looking for a new gig I'm kind of I don't know away from what I am doing currently because I'd like to just do something else And there's something that looks interesting I'll I'll wade through a couple or whatever I see whatever props up that seems to be like this looks like the coolest fit This looks like the best number. This looks like the most comfortable working circumstance and situation and then I will ask Just the others if there are in that situation Can you compete with this? Not not directly, right? I'm not going to obviously tell them. Oh, I have this other offer What can you do better? Is that a tactic by the way before I forget? Is that something that Works or is just kind of a jerk move? I mean if you if you really have another offer, um, I think being honest with your recruiter Um, despite what google says when you do a search for recruiters are what they say We actually are humans and and want to do our job So, you know, if you have other offers on the table and you are looking at them Yes, we want to know that so that we can make sure that Not only we're meeting your demands, but also we don't want to waste our time internally if you're really seeking other opportunities And and that's not to say don't do that. You should look around and see what is the best fit for you Um, because if you as we know if you choose the wrong thing six months down the road or a year You know, you're going to move on so you should look at their opportunities But yeah, be honest with the recruiter about that Okay, okay Yeah, I would just ask directly if they hadn't provided about I would ask about the salary, but yeah, that makes sense Um, so there's a lot of talk in the uh, talent acquisition community about AI We know it's not AI. We know it's not we know it's not but you know, it's one of those those Terms right now. That's the it phrase. So technically machine learning. I'm not saying it's AI. We'll start with that but um, there are a lot of tools out there that um, We'll gather additional information on a person. I'm not saying illegal, but we'll provide us additional information on who you are, right? Um, and and We could see groups that you're in. Um, different pictures things like that information that's available online. Um How do you feel about an organization? You know having this profile on you, um when they reach out to you Okay, yeah My my opinion might I guess be different from others again the disclaimer that I that I have to put right just as kind of Who I am and others personally I Put out stuff into the world And the internet and the socials because I like it and I'm proud of it um, if obviously there were some Silly kids that were putting out information sharing photos and things about not good things That would like you've discussed before. Hey, we just genuinely don't want to see that's not cool Yeah, that that would be a bad thing If if a company has a database or if they are finding this information about me Uh, in my case, I am I like that But that's just me that might that might not be the same thing for everyone But again, I take the stance like I'm going to put stuff out there that I like and I'm proud of and I think that This is cool and I want other people to see it. Otherwise I wouldn't So one of the coolest things for me is When a recruiter or when a talent acquisition specialist or an individual kind of says like Dude, I saw your talk the other day at grim con. That was really cool. I liked that. You did that. I was like, oh, thanks, man Right, like I'm keeping up with your youtube channel. John congrats on a hundred thousand and be like, oh my gosh. Thanks so much I love that but maybe my situation is different from most If Another individual like maybe has a website out or they share their portfolio And then the recruiter says like this is really good stuff Are you cool with me bringing this to my customer or my client or the the company that I would like to Showcase you too. I think that would that would be feel good feel for me Yeah, and in the recent and as I said, I'm not talking about doing anything illegal with with gathering information on people, right? So um, I I think that And in particularly when if somebody's looking for a job You should try to find commonality with the people that you are Looking to network with within an organization So if you if you actually come across the manager for the group that you're trying to work in You know find commonality where that person do a little research online. Have they written white papers have did they go the same school as you? You know, um, I wouldn't go as far as to taking it to a creepy level, right? Like, oh, I live a street away from you You know, I wouldn't go there. Yeah, right So but at the same time, I think finding that commonality is a comfortable space, but at the same time um, you know, you're seeing other countries, you know that are um pulling back from that and putting requirements in you know gdpr is a big one for Companies how they collect that data and what they do with it and you have the rights to your data And so I think it's an interesting topic that will Evolve some of the technology that we use potentially To find people in the next few years. So that will be kind of interesting on our side. See what happens So particularly if that comes to the u.s. Oh, yeah, that is really interesting Yeah, so, um, another one of the things that we talk about is You know, this is a really broad topic, but um, there's a big Focus in talent acquisition around you can call it brand Talent attached talent attraction brand and ebp. So really what I'm saying is what of the information that a company puts out There is really important to you And or it's anybody that you've talked to so is a brand really important um, and You know what stands out for you? Yeah, okay Um, obviously, I think it it does like undoubtedly my immediate answer to that like does brand matter Yes. Yeah straight up like obviously someone will be like, hey, I want to be the next Google or facebook or fang the whatever the giant companies Or whatever that acronym is for the I don't know the cool hit places to work and be a part of these days Yeah, that's real like that's super real Maybe some people have a different opinion or they just don't agree with what that company is doing and they're like, no, hey, man gtfo I'm not I'm not into that But if you look at my world is a lot of different defense contracting gigs If you're a big fish in the pond then you're attractive, right? Without naming specific companies like there are obviously ones that'll be like, hey, you're a you're a well-known name And that would be kind of cool if I were there and a part of that On the other realm and this might be different for different people if they're more interested In a startup or a smaller company or something that's just kind of still growing or budding I remember having a conversation with A friend of mine that's doing some startup things and they wanted to chat to be like, hey, john Would you ever be interested in in doing this thing? I remember even just in my head like like my philosophy was like Oh, I'll have this conversation with you because you're you're a buddy. You're a friend But I don't I don't know what you would have to offer me because you're so tiny And that's a jerk thing to think but I think it's real like that. That's a conceptual thing You're an unknown right? Yeah, but they're not right Yeah, that makes sense. There may be I hear uh This is interesting. I think in my mind because obviously if you're a ginormous conglomerate There they could say I know the phrase there's such thing as you're you're too big to fail And I think on the other side of that you can be so big They're it's too big to not fail like it has to like okay. This isn't going to be good because I'm just going to turn into a number I'm just a cog in the machine. No one particularly cares about who I am. I'm just an entry in the database It's all over the place. Maybe I'm sorry. I'm not giving you a good answer because there is no Good answer. I think it's you know, it's partly personal preference, right? Yeah But what research would you do on an organization saying it's one that you had never heard of before? What would you do? Okay to go out and research a company? Yeah, I absolutely do a google search. I absolutely I look at wikipedia pages because that's always like the first thing that comes up and whether or not that's accurate or not But I like to look for news articles Because if I can see like hey, this company just did whatever x incredible thing They're looking their growth is going crazy. Who knows? That's very cool Maybe again, if if that's a if that's a smaller company, maybe there aren't going to be so much common stuff about bigger ones um, I will also look at I don't know if it's angel list or glass door or whatever those things are I'll tell you about like the quality of life there like how the work actually is Are you cool with the management or is it I don't know Do they provide the benefits that you would be actually expecting and we're promised? Stuff like promotion cycle. I don't even know It's cool to get other people's opinions because sometimes you don't always have that insight Um, I think one of the greatest things maybe this is a tangent But I think one of the greatest things a talent recruiter or talent acquisition a recruiter could do Is when they're having a conversation with a potential candidate if they could say like hey I've got this person That's I've got this employee that's actually in the same department or same group Or it's it would be a co-worker that you would be working with are you cool if I set up a conversation between you and them Just to get the real deal I don't know if there's a risk in that from the from the hr perspective if someone if that person gives bad news But it would be really really cool just to be like, hey This is going to be the person that i'm really working with and it's awesome to really get their opinion Like unfiltered, you know No, I think that's a really good idea and I think that if more organizations did that it would help They're they're hiring process because a manager is going to give you, um, you know If you do an interview with a manager, they're only going to give you so much Information around the position because they're in a management position Um, you know, if you're able to talk to potential peers I think that's hugely helpful to get a full round, you know, well-rounded view of what the group program Organization is really like That's a big one. Um, okay, let's go with the one that's really kind of silly so Recruiters just starting in recruiting in cyber security And all of the lovely, um Images out there are of you all wearing hoodies and sitting in dark rooms and potentially, um, you know growing mushrooms, so So, um, I see that you're in a lit room, but is this a common thing? You all sit in hoodies in dark rooms No No There was it's funny. There was like a thing on twitter some time ago where all these whatever infosackers cyber people were being like Hashtag no hoodie. I don't even know what it was but it was like a normal picture Of just a person in their backyard Right Here's sunlight. We know we're not And maybe there is a stereotype that could be true to some extent in some crevice or enclave But that there's absolutely no not all of us are are are that And some of them that are are incredible and super cool that like the nicest people and the smartest people you could ever know Yes, I know a few very well. So yes Oh goodness and so Another one is that you know, I think recruiters get really comfortable with a particular platform So as I've told you linkedin, that's easy, right? I know not everybody wants to be on linkedin, particularly getting all their in-mails, right? But let's talk about some of the other platforms that are out there. Um, so twitter facebook instagram um I know the answer this but Where do you see? Do you see that there's some generalizations of individuals in the cyber security world where they are? Um, if they are online or are they spread out? Yeah You you mean you've already said like hey, I know the answer to this. Yeah twitter. I think A lot of the info psych folks go And it's it's interesting. I mean, how do you have a cyber security community on instagram? Or tick tock, I don't know Yeah, well that one you shouldn't be on Yeah, yeah So, um, yeah, I mean hey, there are several that I follow on on instagram. So I'll I'll take that Um, definitely they're the ones that are you know more vocal. It's it's helpful on twitter Um, you know, there's pluses in my assist to that right because you're getting into somebody's personal opinions But hey, that's what they're sharing there. Um, but definitely I think that's An interesting way to look around I totally thought you were gonna ask me like, how would you feel if someone Like Ask you for like ask you about a job on twitter. I thought I thought you were gonna go in that direction is like, I don't know Is that something that would be done Of course. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not gonna say every recruiter is gonna do that There may be company policies that say no, you cannot reach out to people on these platforms You know, so I can't speak for every policy But absolutely if the platform has a messaging capability, you know, and you can figure that some recruiter will probably reach out to you on there So, um You know, I think there are a few out there that people can run a remain anonymous on right? Um You know, the big ones are going to be whether it's twitch or whether it's um, you know reddit, but um You know, yeah reaching out to you on those So, you're not sure how you feel about it Uh, not yet honestly I don't know Part of me would feel like hey, this is weird. Like this isn't the right place It's like asking like a a strange inappropriate setting and like a real world event like I don't know. I don't know. I don't know That's the thing we're on that one. Yeah, sorry So, sorry people. John just wants emails All right, um Okay, so we wanted to talk about some poor stories that we have uh, oh, yeah That we have come across in the past the fun stuff I know a lot of them on the recruiting side get posted online. Um So yes, I've read a lot of those but did you see one of the The recent ones and I don't know if this is something you've been keeping up with but that there was like a A kubernetes or a kubernetes Job posting that it was like required of 12 years of experience in kubernetes And like the following picture right beside it is like this technology has been out for six years or half that or whatever the case Yeah Yeah, that goes back to job descriptions. Hey, it's two people are more actually more than two people typically are responsible for that job Descriptions. So yeah, that that's not a good representation of my history, but hey Um, you know, not just our responsibility, but I'll take it for for this purpose So, yeah, so what else though? What else have you seen? Oh, okay Oh, if we're looking at my my uh side for horror stories one of my pet peeves or I guess I've seen and it would be completely Would absolutely throw me off is getting like a linked in mail or message or an email Uh and the heading like the introductory message to the email is typically Hi, john or hello or dear individual name Uh, if it's an egregious obvious copy and paste and it's a good afternoon joshua If it's like the wrong name Then I know like oh come on man. You really just lost a couple points for with with me Right, right and there's different methods, you know for recruiting some individuals like to do the higher volume So they're going to use that method right and some people, you know, are going to do individual messages Um, there's no standard there. Um, and it works for some organizations in one way and You know the other other organizations. So yeah, that can be a turnoff for sure um one things that I see a lot of is that um From from my side and have seen the past is um, you know, just kind of a ghosting aspect. Yeah, so So something happens during the process. Um, you know You know upfront I have had individuals that have had a medical and emergency and they have gone off the grid, right and um That's one of those places that I never write somebody off because I know that those things do happen, right? um, but aside from that, um One of the things that I'm seeing a lot of is, you know, kind of that Okay, I'm behind the screen therefore. I don't have to respond and you can respond to that by saying, hey You know, you're upfront message to me. Wasn't very engaging respectful Excellent, right. So it didn't fit me. So I don't need to respond. Um You know, but I think when we're talking about somebody being Into the process you've been talking to them and then they just disappear and I think that's difficult. Um You know, if you have developed a relationship with somebody or started to Um, I think it's easy to say, hey, I'm no longer interested We totally get it and we really appreciate like when somebody says, okay Totally understand or we may ask you back. Hey, did you, you know, accept an offer or something like that? um But you know, because typically we have to close things out on our side say why this stopped Um, but at the same time, I think that's a big one and it happens a lot. I'm hoping You know that um changes over time. Maybe the messaging needs to be different from the recruiting side And we come to a better placement, but a lot that happens a lot. Um And I think there's multiple reasons for that, right? So, um, maybe it's another offer that you've gotten. Um You know, maybe it's you're not getting what you need from the recruiter There can be multiple reasons, but I think it's okay to just Send a short email or just let the person know. Hey, I'm no longer interested. So What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, you can play devil's advocate No, I I agree with you. Um In that like, hey, I'm I'm human and I'm fallible and I'm victim to that too. Like I've certainly done that um If just that hey my life got too busy and I didn't get back to your emails But I if anything I could have just sent off a one-liner like look, I'm really sorry. I kind of dropped the ball on this I don't think I want to move forward Um, and I mean that's that's all it takes and I hate to do that just because it makes me feel like a A jerk, but I know it's real Like, uh And in return talent acquisitions should be the same thing for you, right? So if you're you're if you're no longer being considered We need to make sure that we're letting you know that as well. Um, so that you know, there's two sides of that for sure When that is the case, uh, if there ever is a look, I'm really sorry. Uh, we're just going to be looking at other candidates Uh, I I think that is best done in a in a personal message in an email if it's an automated thing Then it's just like a man. That's that's a that's a knife to your heart Yeah It's especially if someone's really really looking and their their desperate is not the right word But they're they're eager and they really want something, you know, right that kind of sucks Yeah, I mean, I think you know Myself just going through I've done talent acquisition for a long time Um, and just going through a more recent job change Even though I'm around it all the time you do get desensitized to the feelings around that And you know, let's let's be honest. You're not thinking about it unless you're in that situation And so You know, I think talent acquisition needs to look at that honestly and realize that there are people on the other side of the screen Um, and that's important So, I mean that brings up a really good point. Um There was another piece to that um that We kind of kind of talked about but I wanted to cover because I've seen a lot of information online about um When you apply You know, kind of how you get sorted, you know, potentially there's there's 150 people that are qualified, right? So we're going to have this hypothetical situation, which doesn't almost ever happen. But um, so So with that, um When you apply to a company online on their website, you're going to go through typically either a crm Or an afghan tracking system Um one is based on engagement with you One is based on really tracking you through the application process through to hire And all those workflow statuses um, some organizations do have tools that will Filter the individuals that come in to the jobs So it will look for keywords in your resume. It will know Some of them are using AI, so it's not really AI, but some of them are using tools to say, hey, we know that you have Successfully hired these people in the past this these resumes look like this type of a person You potentially want to hire these people or look at these people. So some organizations have those tools There's not a standard of that some companies just have literally a fly button You fill out your information and then you go into a bucket of people Um, no matter how big or small it is and that's up to the individual on the other side inside the company to review all those people um, so there there definitely is I've seen a lot of kind of Subreddits around that lately about hey every company has You know these these filter where they filter everybody out. That's not the case Um, a lot of times it's manual. Um, so it just depends on the company but With that applying and using going through to an african tracking system or crm um There there's some things that I consistently see is one when you're submitting a resume there Um, this is where you want to have that tech space resume. So the graphical resume is fantastic It's gorgeous. I've seen several of them. I saw some last weekend with a b side san Antonio um, you know, but at the same time The ATS is depending on who they use for um parsing the data off of your resume and putting those into those fields May or may not do that correctly if you have a graphical resume um, that doesn't mean don't use pdf, but if you have one with a lot of um, you know A lot of graphics in it it can sometimes cause issues on the other end And that then leads to a picture of who you are and you didn't even know it So the resume that pops up for us every time somebody would search in an african tracking system Is this resume that's all you know messed up, you know, you don't want that So You guys would never know that unless you saw what it looks like But it can really mess up the format on the other end So make sure that when you're submitting through online an african tracking system Which you wouldn't know it's an ATS But the same time when you're submitting through online making sure that that is a tech space resume That is super good to know Because like even even I I tell people like oh Everything should kind of be text, right? That's how you're going to make up your resume I don't I don't think including a picture of yourself is necessary. I think that's kind of stupid But I tell people hey go ahead and put like the logo of your certifications on there Um, but I mean, I know you're right. That's a good point if they do whatever like ocr or stuff to scrape that out Well, that's just gonna muff everything up Uh, if if it's just as simple as having a copy of your resume with the picture removed Then why not like that's easy to do. Yeah, I think what the challenge is a lot of the formats that you're seeing coming out of the different word editors um document editors right now are A lot of these really cool tech looking resumes. Um, I know I had one previously as well But I tested it to see what would happen and it was Jumped on the other end. Um, so just be aware of that and a lot of times these systems will allow you You're gonna create a profile and it'll allow you to see what the person is seeing if they if they do Obviously look at it open that when I say there's a document enough Look at it. Um, I'm not saying don't use pdf. That's not what I'm saying I'm just saying those images that you're talking about like for the certs and stuff like that Um, in that case, I would have those at the bottom of the resume and it depends on the the parsing tools That they're using how that shows up the format on the other side So yeah, that's super good. Appreciate it. That's good. Yeah, thanks. Yeah um Okay Any other questions on your side? Yeah, how else can I help what? Let's see um, you asked uh Me a question. What's a big turn off or Is there any and I kind of gave you some of the approach. Is there anything? That you I guess you if I could turn that question over to you What do you hate to see or what what is really not going to work? Are there any egregious ones that you say? Oh, no, sorry Uh, um I think about that we're talking like specifically resumes or you know Yes, we I could I can help narrow that I guess a little bit Yeah, um I think it goes back to just Basics before you even look at the content that's on the resume. Um If there is sort of thing on formatting. Yeah. Yeah same formatting spelling multiple fonts You know, I happen to be a visual person. So You know, it doesn't mean I won't read it. I will but I may drag through it if it's you know more difficult to read, you know So, yeah Those and and ones that are so long and don't need to be Um, you know, there's some stuff you can cut off in your resume at a certain point. Um, You know, I worked at you know Office depot and you know in high school You know, there's certain details that you don't need on your resume unless it's really relevant to show Look, I've been doing this forever Like you john. Um, I don't know You know, I wasn't I wasn't recruiting in high school. So, you know But at the same time I see that on resumes frequently. Um the the one exception to that I would say is that um If you have held positions like student government say you've done things that show um maturity um interest in your field study um Maybe you were a girl scout all the way through um high school, you know Those types of things that say commitment maturity level Then those those are pluses if it's something that's you know, I worked at a dry cleaner During a certain point and I'm looking for an information technology position It doesn't need to be on my resume, right? But I still see that frequently. Um And a lot of times I'm seeing where People are putting really important information that relates to the job at the very end of the resume Um, I mean you can see there's a ladders report out there around Um, you know, how long recruiters look at a resume? Um supposedly we look at them for seven seconds. I look at them a little longer, but that's what they're saying If I sorry, I don't know. I'm not familiar with the ladders. Yes. Yeah, so ladders. Yeah, so there's there's a Some testing done around how long, um Individuals stay on jobs How long where specifically on the job does their eye go so that I found really fascinating So talking about kind of left aligned information was really important Um, and then it reported in there. I believe that recruiters stay looking at a resume that they gauge whether they want to continue looking at a resume for um Around seven seconds so potentially they can move on from there now Um, don't quote me the article came out a little while ago, but at the same time um You know that may or may not be true for every single recruiter But at the same time it tells you how quickly Just like you are when you're making a judgment whether to respond to somebody or not The recruiter is doing the same thing. So you want to give them that information up front So I think that's the most important takeaway on that one. Um Yeah, I think that's hugely helpful. Um You know, the other thing I was going to say is um, you know, I find that a lot of individuals When it comes to, you know, recruiters, as I said, are not career counselors. So one Um, there are places you can look there is, you know, real support you can purchase from other individuals And it'll give you career guidance. You can reach out to people and communities When it comes to salary information, um, you know, there's an article on um, I think it's money under 30 That talks about um seven different Places to look at salary information So do your research The other pieces that I find a lot of time is that, um, we call you guys candidates. Sorry I know you're people but on it. I'm making a generalization of candidates. Um that Um, they'll come to us and ask us what what should I look for? What should I do in a career? What should I do in a job? You know, that's not where we specialize Um, and so I find that you really need to as an individual looking for a job Do a self-assessment, you know, first of all, do a pro, you know, an audit online seeing what is out there but around you But do a self-assessment look at what your strengths and weaknesses are where you want to go What do you want to have a job? What do you want to have an organization? Um, you know, do a lot of research around the types of positions you want the types of organizations and then The people that work there and network with the the people that work there um You know, that doesn't mean immediately reach out to every person in a company develop a relationship find commonality with them So developing that plan is big. Um It is Would be hugely helpful So I would love to give people advice on what they should do in their careers But I can't tell every one of you where you should work or what type of job you should take. Um, that's not my specialty Dang because I was I was just about to kind of Ask Give me a good capture of what what advice would you give to someone wanting to break into the industry? That's always a good closer. But if if there's no One-size-fits-all answer I understand No, I think they need to look at they need to look at themselves. What are your strengths, you know, um You know, particularly if you're trying to even if you're you're making a mid-career switch Um, do the research find the jobs that have the required the skills and capabilities that you have Um, if there are weaknesses that you can correct great work on correcting those if they're not then realize I shouldn't go after those jobs Um That's that's a big one that I find that people get their eyes set on something early on because they Maybe touched it in school And then they go this is my career path and then somewhere along the way they realize maybe this isn't the best fit for me And they don't do they don't course correct, you know Um, we find that recruiting that's everywhere, right? Um, but no if if you're trying to get into the field You need to do research when I say to you the other day about um You know, do your research like a contester and manage your career like a sisa. I don't know It was very clever at the time. Yeah, no, I mean think it was that So, um, I think that's the biggest takeaway is is you have to be very smart about This and there's not one way. There's not one skill. There's not one cert There's not one degree to get into it. It's the entire spectrum of what you do that will get you into the next job Cool, I want to I want to zoom in on that on that line. Do your research like a pentester and manage your career like a siso That should be the thing. I'll take that quote. Yeah, absolutely. I love it Cool Cool. Well, I think this was really helpful for me. Yeah, it was helpful for um, you guys as well Oh, I hope so. I and I and I really really think so. Honestly, I even me just hanging out and listening There's definitely a lot that I I can take away from this. So I think it's Awesome and thank you for I don't know being willing to have this conversation I I think this has been really really great and I hope it helps both sides because I know that's that was the goal here was Both communities. Hey, well, let's let's kind of break down those walls Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a good time to do it those virtual walls, right? Oh, yeah Cool. All right No, I guess we'll wrap it up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't say it enough I I am grateful because what we've done with the hey, that's the cheesy youtube channel right when I get to put this out online We broke about a hundred thousand subscribers, which is a milestone for me That's a super duper grateful for it But I hope you know and hey, you've got that you've got that takeaway your your voice is Yeah, thank you people. So I hope thank you very much. Absolutely