 Welcome to the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my partner in crime, my co-conspirator, the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lato. Hi everyone. Hey Jimmy, and we got Ben, our MVP producer behind the glass producing us a tip of the hat to Benny. And this week we're going to talk about two situations within the criminal justice system involving locales and extra members. One with the one group that we're going to talk about is the Genovese. And then we're going to finish off with the Lucchese. So within the Genovese crime family in the last week to two OGs, two old timers, guys that have been known as a gangland tandem for 30, 40 years, Elio Albanese, Chinatown Albanese, and baby Carmine Russo. I want to hire these guys attorneys. If I ever get in trouble, I'm going to go find these guys. These Russo and Albanese, we're facing drug dealing charges for selling OxyContin, opioid pills that they were somehow able to get prescriptions for and then moved on the black market. Those are the type of charges that could get you 20, 30 years. And these are, like I said, these are seasoned criminals with long, long rap sheets. But their attorneys worked out a deal with the prosecutors and the judge signed off on it. They're not going to do a day of prison time. They both got 75 hours of community service. Jimmy, your thoughts? Yeah, it's pretty interesting. It tells you a few things that, first of all, there's so much money to be made in pills. Just from a criminological perspective, I'm not aware of any organization that's not selling pills. I mean, any criminal group, right? I mean, you know, I'll love like this. You can sell a pill for $20 a pill. Yeah, street gangs. And even this case, a couple of old-time Italian guys. Yeah, there's too much money to be made in it. But it is interesting because we had an episode, one of our earlier episodes on video with the local defense attorney, Anjali Prasad. And she's defended some of these doctors who were writing some of these prescriptions. And the DEA, they throw the fucking book at these guys, man. Like, you know, doctors who were, they would say they were over-prescribing, running kind of a pill mill. And I mean, they gave that one dude that she was representing over 100 years, sent in something like that. So, which I think, just my own opinion, I try not to editorialize too much in terms of like criminal justice policy. I think that's absurd. I think that's insane to basically almost like every pill that you're getting a sentence for every pill that you're selling at that point. But then these guys with a rap sheet a mile long, it's curious that they get a slap on the wrist when some of these doctors are going down for a severe sentencing. I mean, good for them. I'm not saying that they should get stiff sentences, but it is curious. And, you know, just to give a little history on them. Like I said, these guys go back as a duo well back into the 70s and 80s. They worked together at the Fulton fish market, which was a big mob, you know, racketeering enterprise for years and years. And I don't know about the current state of that market now, but wouldn't be shocked if it was still controlled by elements of organized crime. And then they were semi-famous around Little Italy on Mulberry Street back in the 80s and 90s for selling fireworks. A lot of money in that. A lot of money that people don't realize that there's a lot of money in fireworks. So but they have racketeering convictions, sports gambling convictions, extortion convictions. And even though Carmine Russo's nickname is baby Carmine, he's far, he's far from a baby. These are guys in their 70s. I'm looking at the legal documentation here and it was oxycodone, Adderall, colonopin. And I don't know what this is. Suboxone. Suboxone. It's what they give recovering heroin addicts. Oh, yeah. And then you can get addicted to the Suboxone. Sure. Sure. So, I mean, I know that when I admit I'm ignorant about, but the first three I know are very, very popular. No Suboxone is very popular with ex heroin addicts who get addicted to what got them off of heroin. Yeah, I see. I see. So there's probably a big street demand. Yeah. For it. So yeah, it's pretty interesting. I mean what the leader found a very sympathetic judge or I don't know what to make of it. I mean, maybe it's just a situation of that these guys are elderly and they're viewed as less dangerous than some younger, young strapping bucks that maybe appear more physically intimidating. And it's a question of medical issues over prison overcrowding. All these guys are trying to get and we're going to, this is going to be a good segue. All these guys are trying to get out on medical compassionate releases. So they're, they're trying to use, I think the first step act, which was the 2008 federal federal act, which gets sentencing reductions for nonviolent offenders, as well as these, these medicals to shed some of the weight of the criminal justice system to alleviate some of the, the resource issues where they're just overwhelmed and they don't have the resources and and trying to slim down some of the prison population. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good idea. I know a lot of other people probably going to get all sorts of hate comments on YouTube for me saying that but I think it's a good idea. Okay, you know, getting editorialized. I mean, if these pills were actually pharmaceutical grade pills, and I'm not trying to minimize drug addiction. That's a serious thing. I don't want people to think I'm insensitive. But if it's pharmaceutical grade pills, people on the street are much better off taking that shit than the what what's coming up. Sova on last week and the, the stuff that's manufactured in Mexico where there's no God knows what they put in there and then God knows how they cut it, people on the street cut it with God knows what that that's the shit people are taking and where, you know, one dosage and they're overdosing. So, you know, I'm not trying to say like, you know, these, these guys are great guys and deserve a pass but I'm just making a larger comment about criminal justice policy. That, you know, if, if drugs were decriminalized, and they could be regulated I mean people would have more information and be able to consume them in a safer environment and then he could worry, then he could work on rehabilitation or whatever, you know, if the person. It's not just recreational use and the person has an addiction problem so it just makes me think of a whole other, you know, larger issue with criminal justice policy. Let's say to our final topic, go to the Lucchese crime family. Joe glasses, Joseph to tell Joe glasses to tell 73 year old soldier enforcer for the top Lucchese brass was doing a 15 year sense for racketeering, but because of his failing health, I got a medical release after four years, five years. So got about 10 years shaved off of his sense he's home now in Staten Island. What's interesting, I think about his most recent case and he's a guy again with a pretty long criminal record dating back to the 70s. The guy that was, you know, in a, he was in the, I think they called it the Prince Street crew. The cop under crazy Dom Truskello was very close in the 2000s and 2010s with Stevie Wonder, Steven Korea who was the one time acting boss under boss of the Luccheses. And so you have a situation where it's like the mobs like an elephant, you know, they've got a long, long memory they don't forget and they don't forgive. So, back 25 years ago, Joe to tell Joe to tell Oh, and a number of Luccheses and a number of the Calvate Conte crime family figures from New Jersey were brought down in a labor racketeering case and had to go to prison. And the top government witness in that case was a guy named Sean Richard, who was the point man in the labor union racket that they were running, or one of the appointment, and happened to be the son in law of the Del Cal decal the Conte godfather, john the eagle riggy and john riggy, Reggie, how do you pronounce it, JB. I think it's Reggie or Reggie. I think it's Reggie. So rich or john Reggie, who was, you know, Sam the plumber decal the Conte's handpicked successor. And this was a son in law married to his daughter and went from, you know, between 1999, let's say between 1994 and 1999. This guy went from a nobody, you know, construction hack to run in point for two organized crime administrators at two major families in their labor racketeering endeavors, and he flipped, and he sent his father in law to prison as well as all these new cases. So this is more than 15 years later, 2017 the indictment comes down. But in 2016. John Reggie at this point is dead. He came out of prison was was was free for a couple years, and then died I believe in 2015 or 16. But the year after john, or the year, either of or around the time that john really dies. Joe Detello and the Luccheses are actively trying to locate Sean Richard in witness protection so they can take vengeance and find him and kill him, and they were successful in finding him. Joe Detello found Sean Richard and witness protection up in New Hampshire and sought permission and got permission from the Lucchese brass to go and murder him, but before the murder could take place. They were indicted and that was the prison case that he just got out of so it wasn't just trying to locate a witness and kill him but it was a whole other slew of racketeering charges that came down, including murder charges that Detello involved in but that that case is what the Mikey Meldish murder that took down Maddie Madonna and Stevie Korea there will never see the light of day. But this was all from that case, one of the predicate offenses and counts in that case was trying to locate this witness from a previous case 15 years before, and trying to kill him it to me. This is a reminder of, even though it's, you know, the 21st century and you think that these type of mob hits or mob retribution is a thing of the past. It, that's not always the case. Well, let me ask you a few things. First, so who snitched on the plot to how did the feds find out about the plot. Who's, I, you know what I wish I could tell you I don't know. It might have been a pun of the specifics. It might have been a wire. Okay. So, the other thing is, why would they relocate this guy to practically the same part of the country. Yeah, I mean it's not very far at all from where he the people that he snitched on. I think they'd put him in Utah or Wyoming or somewhere, you know, Washington, not, not on the East Coast, not enough, not on the East Coast. Yeah, so any, any insight on, I mean, even just your thoughts, but no, but as crazy as it sounds. I don't think that's that abnormal. Okay. Where they might not move you one state away, but they might move you two states away, or, or, or three states away I can think of Alpo. Yeah, he wasn't very far. Alpo was in Maine, I think. I could be wrong. I think he was in somewhere in the Northeast. Yeah, and he was, he was driving back into Harlem. Yeah, right. Right. So, I would say this is still pretty interesting because you think about all the big names out there. Henry Hill, Sammy Gravano, Phil Leonetti, nobody as far as we know ever went after. Well, there was a conspiracy. There was a mile. I think Leonetti, there were, I think saying that there were full hearted attempts might be a little bit. It might be an exaggeration. I think there were, I think there were half hearted attempts. Yeah, both the Gravano and Leonetti, where, if they had wanted to they probably could have done it. But they try to put something in motion and it's never got any traction. Yeah, because I think in Arizona that Gambino's did have some guys out there scouting, but obviously it didn't, it didn't go very far. I think Clark Carbonaro was given the contract and had taken a trip out to Arizona and that was as far as it had gotten. And then with Leonetti, I know this is I wrote his book. So Leonetti was sneaking back into the Atlantic City, Atlantic City area to take care of his dying mother and Joey Merlino and those guys got word. This was like 9899. And Merlino put out some order basically like if you see him hit him, but I don't think it was like a go find him. Yeah. Okay, so, so there's kind of a gray area with those cases, but there's a lot of other guys Joe Massino. We also know counter example. Again, one of these like sort of kind of was, we know the Detroit guys were trying to find Nove at first. There's some evidence that they were trying. Now what, what, what did they do beyond that? Again, it's like sort of, but, but we know that that they were. They found Novi Toco at some point, and they didn't do anything about he was in Arizona. Yeah, pizza place. Right. But we know that they went after Joe they went after his brother to Well, they beat his brother up a couple times. Right. Which was, which was also kind of his brother is a guy who's, you know, yeah, you're not supposed to do that. There's all sorts of controversial. The Novi wasn't getting into the weeds on this. And that was Toco on Toco crime. Toco on Toco crime, putting your hands on a May guy, I get it his brother, his brother became an informer but still you're not supposed to do that. So there's a lot of layers to unpack there but but it doesn't seem for the most part. This seems pretty extraordinary. I mean it does. I think the soprano is where he, you know, strangles the guy in season one. Like, I think that was in New Hampshire too. I mean, that was the last time someone witness protection was hit wasn't in Arizona didn't the outfit hit a guy back like way back in the day. I'm pretty sure they did. Yeah, right. That's what I mean. So, I don't know, I think it's a pretty interesting story. I mean, I think that's the guy or possibly hit that guy in the UK but it's not 100% because his neighbor confessed to it but there are people that claim the neighbor was lying about the confession. It's a unicorn situation and luckily for Sean Richard whatever his name is now, you know, that never got carried out but it, not that long ago, the Lucchese crime family search for and found this, you know, informant who had a very, very powerful father-in-law that had recently passed and they were planning on murdering him. So that, you know, this isn't, it's probably still not a good rule of thumb is probably, you know, don't, don't screw over the mafia, and you won't have to look over your look over your shoulder for the rest of your life. Yeah, then you don't have to worry about it. But so do you think then that waiting until Reggie died was like a courtesy? I kind of believe that it wasn't a coincidence. Okay, that like the conspiracy to find this guy and murder him was launched within months of the father-in-law dying but I can't imagine that the father-in-law was so thrilled with his daughter's kid because, oh, and another thing I want to, another thing we should throw in there, the narrative. He didn't go into witness protection with John Reggie's, John Reggie's daughter. He went into witness protection with like a stripper. So maybe John, you know, I don't know what John Reggie's take on it was but maybe it was one of those things like they had kids and as much as John Reggie would want to kill his son-in-law, he wouldn't want to make his, his grandkids or his, without a father. I know that that happened in Detroit in the 80s with Pete Vitaly and Jimmy Quasarano got put away because of testimony from Pete Vitaly's son-in-law. And Jimmy Q was like, I'm going to kill him. And Pete Vitaly, these two were best friends, Vitaly and Quasarano. He went to New York to meet with Fat Tony after Hoffa. Right after Hoffa. Right after here. And Vitaly said, I hate this motherfucker too, but I'm not going to make my grandkids, or I'm not going to make my wife a widow and make my grandkids live without a father. So if you're going to kill him, you're going to wait till I die. Quasarano had told people that he wanted to wait until Pete Vitaly died. This, the guy that they wanted to kill ended up committing suicide before both Quasarano and Vitaly died. And there was a belief that the suicide wasn't really a suicide, but I actually think it was a suicide. Well, yeah, it's, that's, I was thinking of the Cavatio situation too, but he wasn't a snitch. That was a different. I mean, they still had to wait until his father-in-law was protecting him. Yeah. And then once his father-in-law died, they whacked him. They didn't take long. But that's different because he wasn't a snitch, but he was a made guy. Yeah. It's a, the last thing I want to ask you is do we have any insight into how they found him? Like, is there someone on the inside or something? Did Tello had, or was he out in the open kind of, or both? I think that Did Tello was able to get some inside information from some dirty police officers. And similarly, you know, we're talking just to make sure that we're covering all our bases and referencing families trying to kill informants. You know, with Chicago, with Nick Calabrese, who recently passed away, Nicky Slim, the only member of the Chicago mafia to ever testify. Jimmy Marcello, who was the boss back at that point, located Nick Calabrese via a dirty U.S. Marshall. And they were taking measures to go find him and kill him before he could, before he could hit the witness stand. And they weren't successful, but they had a dirty U.S. Marshall that was feeding them information on where the government's like number one witness of all time was being stashed. Yeah, it doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the, in either one of those cases about witness protection, going at your own risk. And then, and then, you know, in that whole Buffalo thing, where we start off, there's a corrupt DEA agent who's part of that. Yeah, Peter Jurassic, Jr. The nephew of Joe Tadaro grew up with Joe Bon Giovanni, retired DEA agent, who's also under indictment. And the feds believe that Bon Giovanni was a inside man for Jurassic Junior and other members are and members of a Buffalo organized crime. There's a phone call that they had. I'm not positive if the identifications were cemented or it's just believed, but there's some type of phone call between Jurassic Junior and Bon Giovanni or of two people that have suspected to be those do where a stripper died at Pharaohs. And Jurassic Junior got on the phone, allegedly with Bon Giovanni, and was basically like, what should I do, like come help me. And so, I think she had OD I don't think I don't think she was murdered or anything, but the, the allegation is that Bon Giovanni helped help Peter Jurassic Junior out with that. And that the allegation from the government with, with, with Jurassic Junior, whether or not Bon Giovanni was taking bribes or not, there are allegations that Jurassic was giving bribes out to a number of local and federal law enforcement. Yeah, so it kind of comes comes full circle doesn't give you a lot of confidence although it's certainly not as bad as we talked about with our friend Leo Silva last week with it. So, but it doesn't doesn't give you a lot of confidence. Well, the Lucches with Joe glasses. According to his attorney and a couple other people I spoke to. He's the medical excuse is pretty legitimate that he that he has early onset dementia. He's only 73, but I've talked to some people that say that he in the last, since he went to prison that he really slipped mentally and might not have a ton of time left. The very least might not have a ton of time being of sane mind. And that's what got him out early. Well it's interesting and we look forward to you following up on it and people can read up on it. I just wanted to say that one thing I'm kind of noticing and Jimmy and I talked about this off air. There's more cross pollination going on right now with some of these crime families then then you might anticipate. And I don't know if what we're seeing with Joe to Darrow in in Chicago is an example of that or not to the naked eye it seems like it's an example of that. But I was just, I don't want to say floored, but I was really surprised when I saw those pictures surface today. And I just think it's another example of how in, you know, the mob sometimes mirrors overall business trends and there's more of a globalization trend with American business in the last 20 years, and maybe that globalization is the nationalization or the nationalization of La Cosa Nostra families that at one point were very connected and maybe lost some of that connection. And then it looks like based on my reporting some of it is has been regained and you have families that are working with other families, you know, in a very symbiotic relationship in 21st century like rackets. The five families always work together but but there are some striking examples we had john panacea on several weeks ago and he talked about connections between the lukease and the outfit. We, we know the city. Yeah, go ahead Kansas City and Kansas City's got ties into the outfit as well as ties in the Philadelphia right now Philadelphia has ties into New England. We know that Genovese and Philadelphia goes back a long way and I'm pretty confident that that's still going on now. And, and then the Gambino's in New York and I'm getting some pretty good intel there, you know, they're really close with the in Zerillo clan in the affair that goes back that goes back decades and decades and decades like that that goes back, you know, I mean, they're all interrelated Gambino in Zerillo DiMaggio. And, but but that I mean that's that's there've been bust just as in the last few years of where members of the family in Palermo are arrested in New York and New York guys are arrested. You know, right, are arrested in New York and Tommy Tomaso Gambino Joe son was arrested in Italy, and there were Sicilian guys arrested here. So they they're really interlocked and, and I'm hearing and you know we've talked about this before we just did the Gambino episode a few weeks ago we talked about Manino and stuff. I think that the Sicilians are kind of running the show right now it with the Gambino's and I and I think that is a Paradiso. I think he I think he's sort of the bridge between the OG Godi era guys and I my the zips really like him so something's really like him. So he's kind of that bridge between between the two but you know right now Manino he's got a lot of juice, you know, well liked, well respected kind of kind of carries himself like an OG, you know, well, well he's a snappy dresser he really looks, he looks the part has connections to the old country. So, it's just I find it fascinating you and I talk about how we really love the political science and the sociology of the time. And this is a perfect example of it when the different porgadas work together have diplomatic relations with each other I think it's fascinating. Yeah well and then the last thing I'll say on it and then we'll wrap it up, talking to Daro, there was another document I believe it was a RCMP document from some point in the last couple years where it claimed that to Daro, and the guys in Canada wanted to get this ally Veroni guy made and they reached out to the five families and they somehow got word to Tommy Gambino in LA to get this ally Veroni guy straightened out. And then I've only goes from Hamilton to Disney World, or sorry Disneyland. And I guess, according to this informant and this our RCMP report got made in California by Gambino on to Daro and the five families request and then comes back to Hamilton and a week later is dead. So that's not been confirmed. I've written about it a little bit. I still don't have 100% confirmation but it's another example of this cross pollination. Yeah, and I know we've thrown on a lot of names but that and just, you know gets confusing. You know who was arrested in Italy, and Tommy Gambino that you mentioned are not the same person, right Primo Cugini their their first cousins, first cousins but they're not the same person. And so yeah that's that was a whole nother interesting story because, you know, a lot of us think that the LA family is probably defunct but then that was some interesting tell that that suggests that it may be more complicated than that, or another argument is no actually Tommy is is a representante for the Gambino's in New York, he's just running things in LA for on behalf of New York are on behalf of the Gambino so. And then of course the other argument is he's just a civilian he has nothing to do with this in fairness, but it's intriguing. Definitely. And then we had Sammy the bull come out recently and say that, you know, whatever you want to call Joe to Daro you want to call him pizza man you want to call him wingman. Let me tell you that there was a meeting that I had with him back in the 80s, where he made me go out into the Atlantic Ocean so we would have no ways to be listened to and I was Sammy the bulls talking I was sending a message to his dad through him. So again there's been a lot of smoke there. And that was sorry to interrupt I know we're going to wrap up but that that was that was the smooth over wasn't that like the after God he got it was after God he took power and led pipe Joe and made a comment. I think, either on a wire, or to somebody that he was going to seek retribution on Castellano's behalf and God he sent word to to Daro via Gravano, like stand down. It's none of your business. We have good authority, obviously well documented that the Genevieve family were very upset with with with God about that. So it's intriguing if there was another board God out out of that five families who was upset. And we also have good Intel from Detroit that that high ranking Detroiters were would were upset with God for make for this move. And, in fact, one high ranking member of Detroit would not meet with God in prison as years later, as a kind of still kind of like, you know, about the Castellano hit. Now, I get it there's going to be some New York centric people who are going to say fuck Buffalo fuck Detroit what are they what can they do to John Goddy. That's a fair, that's a fair, that's a fair comment but it is interesting just politically, you know that to know that some of these other smaller families were also not happy with the way that Goddy, what about doing things. Well, this was fun. I love talking about New York. We have a request to do more New York stuff and we're trying to deliver that. Please like subscribe share our site, our page, the podcast. We love bringing in this content. We're going to keep on trying to bring it as much consistent content as possible and and try to be as diverse as possible I know I've been teasing it out, but we're going to we're going to be start rolling out some more. More stuff content wise in the next couple months. And hopefully we'll have some gear to sell sooner than later I'm hoping to get the gear component of og pod up by the late spring early summer. So check it out we'll be back next week for Ben behind the glass for Jimmy Bucci Lotto the doctor I'm Scott Bernstein original games podcast.