 Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the sixth episode of the School of Resistance, a live stream format that invites experts on change around the world to discuss valuable alternatives for the future and to create a blueprint for politics of resistance. Today's episode is supported by the initiatives Watch the Met Alarm Phone and Sie Brücke and is entitled Our Human Rights Are on Fire Towards a Humane Migration Policy. And we're very honored to discuss this today with human right activist Effie Lazzudi and normally also human right activist Mohamed Al-Kashev and Musi Seray that unfortunately are not there yet to join us, probably because of urgent reasons and will stay in touch about if they can join maybe later. Then on March 26, reports uncovered the first COVID-19 cases along the Greek-Turkish border. Several NGOs and human rights activists demanded the immediate evacuation of the refugee camps. Yet Europe remained silent. When a fire broke out during the night of September the 8th and destroyed the overcrowded refugee camp Moria on the Greek island Lesbos, the same NGOs and human rights activists demanded the immediate accommodation of refugees by the European member states. But once more, Europe remained silent. While the pandemic forces people around the world to stay at home, another large group of people is looking for one. In this episode we will, together with hopefully Musi Seray, Mohamed Al-Kashev and luckily Effie Lazzudi discuss Europe's inadequacy and unwillingness in addressing the migration crisis. Before we start this conversation, I quickly want to remind the people listening at this moment of the possibility to engage in the conversation. For everyone who is watching live, you're welcome to send us your questions by emailing to schoolofresistance at antigen.be or by commenting on the live stream on the Facebook pages of antigen or IIPM or on Twitter via the hashtag schoolofresistance. Effie Lazzudi, it's a great honor. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you're in a very urgent situation. So even more, I'm very honored that you made some time free for this important conversation. Just to introduce you further, you are a psychologist, human rights activist and a driving force behind Pikpa Camp, an independent open refugee camp, aiming to be a community-based space drawing on the principles of solidarity, empowerment and active participation. In 2016, you received the UNHCR Nansen Refugee Award for your long-standing commitment to helping refugees on the Aegean Sea. Maybe as a first broad introduction question, could you tell a bit more about how Pikpa Camp came into being and how it operates? Yes, thank you very much for the invitation and I feel honored to share about Pikpa and our work with the School of Resistance because actually all what we do is about resistance and hope and our future. So it's really important. How we started Pikpa. Look, I live in Lesbos since 2001 and actually I didn't know much about what is happening with refugees till some friends of mine talked to me about the deaths and the people that were already buried in the cemetery of Lesbos. And that's how I started to understand that there was already a camp, there was detention, a violation of the rights of the people and silence in the European level, in the Greek level and of course in the local society. And that people detained, they were not even people for us. They were something like some illegal alien, whatever. It's sad for our society to live like this, to accept that people are suffering next to us and we don't react, we don't want to know. And this is something that mobilized me to understand more, to participate in local groups, to become an activist in this field, an active citizen actually. So in 2012 we had already a huge financial crisis in Greece. We have a very tragic moment because the Golden Dawn, the fastest party was first time in the parliament and that shocked us. And most of the rhetoric of this party was based on refugees, criminality, danger and all this. And on the fact that refugees were excluded by the society, were living in very bad conditions and they were also living behind, they were hiding somehow, they were not criminals but somehow they were excluded and criminalized. And that also fed all this rhetoric and all this fear in the society and we faced this tragic moment where this party became powerful in the Greek parliament. So we started a network of solidarity. It's very important to talk about this now in your context because we were desperate, I mean desperate and attacked by different sides, financially, politically and at this point we decided to create a network of solidarity to unite our power in the local level, different people, very different politically and to support the Greek people and the refugees. And that's how we asked for this abandoned summer camp for children to use it as an open solidarity place for hospitality that the local people will support the refugees. At the beginning it was impossible because the authorities, it was out of the question and they told us no, this cannot happen, there's no police, there's no authority, what are you, refugees need to be arrested and the thing, at the end because we were insisting and because there were many people sleeping in the streets and the locals started to mobilize, it became also visible, they gave us the keys and we started operating in November 2012 and that's how PIKPA started. And so you got a place, could you say a little bit more because it's a place on the island that you appointed, that you wished for or this was given by the authorities and decided like this is the place you get? It was a summer camp for children that was abandoned in a nice location with small wooden houses that was abandoned because of the financial crisis and was falling apart. We knew the place and we appointed the place because in the emergency, in the no border camp of 2009 where many, many people were reacting inside and outside the detention place of Pagani back then, we put pressure and 400 miners were hosted there so we knew the place. We also had the first families that they were in the streets not arrested by the police, we took them to PIKPA that was like a criminal action back then for the authorities but we took them to PIKPA and we negotiated with the authorities that these people should not be arrested, the situation is bad on the island and you can register them and let them go. So it was the first time that we managed to negotiate with the authorities under the pressure of a movement, no border camp, no border camp in 2009. So they accepted that families should not be separated and they should not be detained. For the first time it was a step. We asked for this place and we didn't believe actually, it was like an utopia. PIKPA when we were talking about this with our friends, they told us it's impossible, in the Greek context it's impossible to allow an open self-organized place without the presence of the police, it's impossible. It was the impossible and for me that's the hope. But when we come together, we can't do it. How many people were involved and how was this, what do you think made it possible, was it because so many people from the islands were involved and put in pressure? They were many, many people from different parts of the society, they were also desperate because of the financial crisis that brought and because of the golden dome threat. And it was also the church involved which is not very usual in the Greek context. And politically it was very wide. And the fact that local people were participating made it possible, I believe. And the fact that we knew and we used our knowledge of what could happen because our idea was like, okay, detention is not working, it's not for refugees, you make people suffering and suffering brings more violence and it's just a punishment, it doesn't make sense. People need to be treated by people, need to be supported by people and also isolating refugees makes us create a distance between us and we feel that they are something different which is not the case. It was more effective and it was not cost because we were bringing the food, the clothes and it was just a dignified place with nothing, no money involved. So how did it operate? I mean, the context seems extremely precarious, everyone was suffering under financial crisis but I guess you did need some resources, water, showers, I don't know, food. There was water, the premises were there, there was water, electricity, we have been offered blankets, pillows, all these things from different sources, organization, local people, churches, all over the Greece and also we were cooking there from ourselves. People were cooking in their houses, it was a very, we were calling this as the miracle of Pikpa because when the food was finishing, you know, you could have a group of people who arrived in the middle of the night and they were bringing them to Pikpa and we didn't have food and someone was arriving with a kettle or cooking, it was really amazing. It was really hard to work, warming, yeah, and to see all this and at this point, 2012, even my friends, they were telling me, why are they coming? We are in a crisis because it was also Syrians who started to arrive and the numbers were big and I was thinking, okay, they don't choose to come but many people were afraid of these people arriving but when they saw them in the streets, when they were able to support them, with food, the minimum, or some clothes, they started to change the mentality and they started to feel proud for what they are doing and I remember pictures of people, full of people coming with their food and with the clothes, with their kids, it changed a lot this at this moment, the mentality of the local people. This was eight years ago in 2012, Pikpa still exists, how did it grow, develop, change over the course of years and what did it mean for you also as a coordinator, initiator, how has your role been defined throughout Pikpa? I was feeling from the beginning as a part of a group of people and I'm always highlighting that this is not possible by one or two people, this is possible by many people and maybe you cannot have the names but there are so many people that they give their energy, their work, their imagination, even their dreaming that make this kind of work possible and effective. So I feel part of this and that is the strongest part of this work and I felt also that we were part of something that is important to happen as an example and that gave us the power to believe that when you believe in something you can do it and you come together with other people, you can do it and you are in the right track, you are doing the right thing for us, that was the thing. Pikpa developed throughout the years, we changed many times the way we were operating like we had asylum seekers that they were staying in Pikpa waiting for their asylum to be processed when there was no shelter for the asylum, the people who applied for asylum. We had the homeless refugees that when Moria was created in 2013 that they didn't fit in Moria or they were taking a paper to go out of Moria but then there was no boat and they were staying in the streets so we were supporting them. It was quite flexible and that's also a very dynamic part of this because it was not a project, it was not an EU project, it was a social place, flexible, open. In 2000 and we had many evictions also threads. Every year the municipality, the authorities were taking a decision, let's close Pikpa, we give this place back to the locals which is great when we don't face this level of crisis in Lesbos. So for example in 2015 before the big crisis the mayor had again decided to close the Pikpa. The numbers were increasing, you remember it started from 500 in May and then we went to 8,000 per day in August, September. So we talked to him and we said okay great, you can use the place for a summer but not now, I mean it's not the moment. Later he also acknowledged that we did the right thing because in Pikpa in 2015 we hosted almost 26,000 people and there were people like 200 every day coming and going. It was a huge operation because we were feeding people in Moria, outside in the port, distributing, connecting with other groups. A lot of volunteers arrived, a lot of people that they wanted to support. We were feeling very proud for being there and hosting all these people that they had no place to go. Pregnant women, sick children, a lot of handicapped people or with severe mental health issues. And I must tell you that from one hand it was a network of solidarity that made us proud at this point everywhere in the beaches, welcoming people and in the national movement of solidarity that gave also, it was chaotic many times but that gave a lot of solutions in a completely chaotic situation from the authorities first of all, no coordination at all. All these people they made it possible to support other people and to feel proud about the positive movement and the positive position of solidarity. That was the very positive thing at this moment. The other thing was that the borders were open and people were arriving they had a very difficult time. Moria was a mess, people and garbage everywhere, a mess with the authorities but at the same time they were gone in one, two days and you could see the hope in the face and the smile coming back because they were moving to their dream I mean to the thing that to Europe that they believe that okay they will solve all the problems anyway but this possibility to move out was very important. At the same time I must say also the very tragic part of this 2015 moment for us we were hosting also that we did it since 2013 the victims of tragedies the people who survived shipwrecks the relatives we had been participating for for months in funerals every day that was the tragic part and the very hard part that traumatized us but also made us feel very proud that we managed to to be there for these people and to share with them and not to ignore them or to leave them alone. Thank you, thank you Effie and that's quite an amazing story that I have many more questions about but in the meantime I'm very happy to announce and see that Muhammad Al-Khashaf has been able to join us very warm welcome to you thank you for joining us so we already started the conversation Muhammad Al-Khashaf and Effie Latouti just explained about Peakback camp a camp that she created with many others at Lesbos in 2012 so eight years ago and the many aspects involved in that but let me first proper introduce you further Muhammad Al-Khashaf you are a human rights lawyer and a researcher on refugee rights and migrant movements you work as a consultant and advocate and you're also a member with a watch the med alarm phone a network supporting refugees and migrants crossing the Mediterranean Sea and the right of freedom of movement and so maybe before we start talking more with Effie about Peakback and also many questions I have for both of you could you maybe first tell a bit more about watch the med alarm phone this organization that you have been working with for quite some time and how it functions hello all hello Lara thanks for introducing me and I would say alarm phone started as the main project of watch the med which is a NGO working in documentation human rights violation specifically at sea the need of having alarm phone actually was obvious in 2015 when there was a big ship wreck happened full of Eritreans and Somalians people and Ethiopians from East African countries and it was candle because they tried many times before drowning to contact the concerned authority called MRCC Rome the Italian Coast Guard was aware and informed about the situation but people lived there to die so the idea came that if there was a kind of mediator or a hotline from the civil society that they can reach so it would be easily to communicate with the concerned authorities to communicate with the MRCCs MRCC for the people who doesn't know it it's a maritime rescue coordination center which meant to be the center that coordinate the rescue missions in the time of distress and actually alarm phone now considered as an important hotline for the people crossing the sea for the people who go in migrate let's say or travel and officially from North Africa or from Africa crossing the Mediterranean Europe and how it's functioning they contact when the people are in distress at the sea they contact alarm phone and give them a clear information about their location about how many are them about the condition on the boat what the type of the boat they use if it's a rubber boat wooden boat whatever and then alarm phone take all this information and start to communicate with the concerned authority and start to write about the cases on different social media channels to make a public awareness about the situation and and so actually this kind of civil tool instrument could was able to put pressure and to make sure that people would really get out and rescue yet that they could put the pressure that people on the boat couldn't put themselves yeah actually most of the cases that alarm phone would succeed somehow to to put the pressure and the political pressure the public pressure on the states on the different state institutions to rescue people and to save their lives and also as we see also there is the civil fleet like the different civil rescue NGOs and the Mediterranean like sea watch Mediterranean and different actors at the sea and also we communicate with them after the case become public and become official to the states and can I ask what your specific position is within the organization like what is your role or would you really receive also these kind of calls or what is your position so in this network we have no certain positions but we have kind of of experienced people somehow so I'm as a lawyer and advocacy officer I represent sometimes I represent the network in public events I do advocacy work concerning the migration issue in the Mediterranean but also alarm phone works as shift teams so we have teams that operate in shift works for 24 hours seven days and every single member has a rule to take shifts and to be available for holding the shift phone and to be working with the hot line to receive calls and to receive distress calls from people while they are crossing thank you very clear maybe a follow-up question to you both Effie and I were already speaking a bit about it on forehand when we were preparing this this conversation so of course since the fires in at Moria camp there's a huge attention in the press again if it comes to Europe's migration policies and the question that rises is this something positive is this a momentum that we're living at the moment that we could maybe push for certain things or are you actually both very concerned about certain things that are not mentioned or not getting enough attention if you both would like to respond if you want me to start okay we must say and we must make the point that in all this tragedy throughout the years and because I'm involved since 2005 and I can see the difference and because we've been talking about alarm phone in lesbos at this time when it was starting and it's very important that this happened and it's very important that we have this somehow this tragedy of lesbos became a focus and it's not invisible anymore so yes we have and I find it positive that we have media attention it could be a worst it's a disaster still but it could be a worst disaster without the press attention but it's very frustrating that there is so much coverage of the media coverage and still we have these conditions we had moria for years people were literally tortured in me moria they were suffering human rights were violating lots of corruption lots of money going around in this city city place and lots of deaths and the media attention was okay sometimes more sometimes less but it was not invisible like before so yes I believe that this positive positive but still we have a disaster which is documented somehow I don't know what else needs to be said or shared and what can make the change because still a new camp is built which is completely human I mean pushback are happening groups are criminalized NGOs are attacked fascist are very active I mean what the full tragedy is there but we're talking about but that question is what does it what does it move Mohammed al-Qashif when I would like to mention you shorter should I say Mohammed or Qashif how do we call you or shall I stay with Mohammed al-Qashif Qashif Qashif is okay okay Qashif what about your perspective on the current media coverage is it helpful what should it focus on more what is it forgetting or what should it mobilize okay actually when it comes to moria I was there last year I'm working on the field since 2012 from the other side of the Mediterranean from Egypt and I was in contact and in touch with many Syrian refugees who just the fleet from Egypt to Turkey during what which called the summer of migration to cross the Aegean to Greece to Europe and they stuck in Lesbos and at that time 2014 2015 I started to hear and to be in in kind of contact on moria and last year I was there for the first time in my life and I have seen it in reality I have seen how people are living in tents how people are living in this believe hill and they call it the jungle and it's really describing the situations there lack of water lack of infrastructure and it's crazy it's really crazy like it the camp itself is overloaded which make people to or UNHCR and other organizations to build tents outside and it's not the first time in moria to have a fire or a burn in incident last year the same date approximately in september 2019 there was also a fire a big fire and people flee from the the camp and they go down to the to the city and they set for hours next next to the sea until everything came calm again and they went back to the camp there wasn't poor media coverage and no one covered what happened last year this year actually because it's kind of bigger and they can burn it down and there was a lot of noise on the media there was different reactions and but still what we are missing in the media is the voice of the people themselves the voices of migrants and refugees in moria we all experience the uncertainty during and until this moment during this covid crisis internationally but we still don't feel this is the daily struggle of the migrants and refugees not just in lesbos not just in moria but all over the Mediterranean even in the camps in in the european countries the uncertainty you don't know about tomorrow you don't know what how it will be and what you can do and that's all actually something missing to be announced and mentioned in media coverage yeah i think that's a very strong point you're making because it's somehow also reproducing this idea of we talk about them the others the refugees and it stays this kind of huge group of faceless people that are suffering kind of falling together with the idea of the victim but it stays very abstract and what Effie was saying before also like the whole idea is that they are people like you and me with similar stories backgrounds wishes desires so the question is maybe also like what kind of strategies do we need in order for them for for us to be able to identify and see us as one common people Effie maybe two thought question Kachev was describing this hell on earth called the jungle moria and so it raises questions about how pika and moria were somehow related to each other like was there any communication who could decide if someone stayed in moria or came to pika or so i think this dynamic would be interesting to understand better and then maybe the second question of kachev how can we give voice to the people themselves maybe you have also some thoughts about that okay first of all i must tell you that he didn't describe moria because moria you cannot describe it and i cannot describe it you cannot imagine how people were living there and he knows that as long as we try it's difficult to to to communicate the the level of humiliation and the level of uncertainty the level of violation of rights in moria second i believe that we don't miss the the stories of the refugees we missed the the bridges as you are talking about because there are from my experience here there are stories of refugees out there are if we don't listen to this if we don't understand that these are people and we don't give them the right channels is another thing but stories of refugees are out now and this we i mean it has been so much exposed in different media alternative media mainstream media whatever it's not about information it's something else that is missing for sure people who's referring people from from moria by the the the the main referral pathways because we wanted the people to be also in a to have access to cash program to all the rights and also to transfer to mainland but also we had other organizations supporting referring people and we had also we were identifying cases and we were bringing them to pickpaw so it's it is uh the difference between pickpaw and moria is not only the conditions it's the fact that people were dignified they had some kind of control of their life and of course they they did that we couldn't avoid they they also wanted to go they wanted to move on they wanted to know what is their future and they were also under this uncertain uncertain that was mentioned very well that they don't know what will happen to them this is a political thing this was a a policy implemented against them of course they had the freedom and they had the space to to to deal with it but better than in moria and they didn't have the everyday fights also the fires in moria it was every year 2016 we had deaths in fires last year we had deaths in fires people were banned you cannot imagine this hell fires were there fights were there deaths were there everything was there no reaction not real reaction and most of it we have to differentiate there was a there is a policy there there is information players alternative media whatever but there is a policy implemented that it's in law in greek level govern the government and in european level and there is there are money spent for these conditions it's not you know ah a humanitarian crisis so many people arrived what can we do no everything was happening under the european funding and the monitoring and under all this press and whatever so i mean i don't know i'm not sure that what we are missing is the of course the refugees need to go out and need to speak but are they speaking as victims are they the victims and they are they we give them also some space to our media and we are repeating the same and the same what are we what are we missing in this mess here in this tragedy of the people what information are missing um kachev you were saying uh um we do need more stories of of of refugees themselves and afi afi is doubting but i think uh she very clearly um um describes this this the situation that actually everything is there in order to change it so it almost gives you the feeling like it's actually policy this whole camp and and the hell on earth is in a way a terrible uh very uh uh clear outcome of of of of policy that is implemented and so so what can we do i mean what is missing to paraphrase afi yeah just i to clarify my point i'm not saying that there is a missing stories there is missing voices that people don't speak for themselves even if they are able and willing and have the capability and the scales to speak out we as we experts europeans people concerned about situation don't give them a proper space to express themselves and express their struggles because no one will speak about their struggles better than them so this is the thing and i totally agree with evi there is a lot of information out there like the information nowadays is too much for anyone want to educate themselves to know about the situation it's out there it's not the lack of information not lack of the stories but the thing as you mentioned also about the political intentions there is no political intention to change the situation even if there is a lot of initiatives around europe for example if we take germany as an example there is this big initiative coffee hop in class we have a place and there is a work uh coordinating with the municipalities was the cities themselves was official bodies of the state but until this moment there is no political intention no politician wanted to take a decision and to decide to relocate people and instead of that they are building a new moria so this is the problem and if you are asking me what the solution or how we help in the in this situation and try to give the people space to speak for themselves actually we have enough resources to do so it's all about planning it's all about missing strategy for all of us to come together and then to go to moria to let people speak for themselves not a foreigner correspondent going there and visit to do media coverage to do a couple of interviews with people there is a really touching stories there is a people with a great experience with outstanding skills and life experience and we have to listen to them we have to make not to just to talk about them to the public and to make the awareness but also to put the pressure on the politicians to move forward to do something instead of just discussing and negotiating and meeting from time to time in process or in any other european headquarters to discuss the crisis of refugees it's not a refugees crisis this is a political crisis i would say i totally i totally agree it can totally relate and i think i don't only speak for myself if i talk about the huge powerlessness that we also and maybe also passiveness that we kind of enter into because we are just so horrified by the cruelty that we show every day i mean the netlands i mean the netlands just decided that we will take a hundred refugees a hundred it's it's i'm so ashamed to even pronounce this it's it's beyond imagination and to make it worse it's not a hundred extra it's actually instead of hundreds that we would anyway take next year from UNHCR so it's it's really a level of politics that you cannot imagine and i know you can so i should not explain this to you but it's it's it's devastating and it's very i'm amazed by both of your courage and strength to just continue the struggle even though we hear this kind of information that just leaves us fully speechless before we we go back to this huge question what to do let's maybe first get back a bit to entangle a little bit more of this super complex situation so one of the things is that what we hear often european european country saying is that the reason they don't want to welcome more refugees is because they are afraid it will fuel right-wing parties it will create more racism it will create more xenophobia and and we also know and afia has been talking about a golden dawn in in greece and also in in italy we we see it happening or at least maybe we should ask afia actually how you are experiencing this because i read a couple of articles about locals pushing people on boats back to their country and and it's difficult as an outsider to understand like is this massive are these individuals so and we can also imagine that before we easily judge and say these are fascists i can also imagine that the life on the island has just changed drastically and also people in greece feel abandoned and so could you maybe say a bit more about the level of first of all i must tell you about this rhetoric that refugees are creating the fascists and all this in my experience is the the policies that will implement the criminalization then the exclusion of refugees the lack of policies to to support these people to empower these people to and the lack of of our participation in this system because actually this is not something i mean i believe that migration and refugee issues are very complex very very complex like any human story and we need to for sure include all the powers of the society to deal with this and not the authorities not the european project and whatever we need to be involved in this and we need to find solutions that are also personal personal life because every person has a story it's not refugees they are people and people are different and they they have different and complex stories and instead of supporting them and protecting them we re-traumatizing them in the camps on the way in greece in another on the way to europe so these people are for years powerless traumatized re-traumatized humiliate and then we are talking about what about integration this is a very complex story when i was talking about the the golden dawn in greece we were talking about refugees that they were arriving they were detained criminalized threatened by the police beaten beaten beaten no access to any right no access to asylum they were hiding in basements in Athens and then of course there were ghettos there were small gags of course if you're staying three and four and five years in the street and you are beaten whenever you are out of course there would be some kind of it's normal but we created this and i'm telling you when we had picked up open and people were coming and going we didn't have the same reaction of course we didn't have the same numbers i know but in 2015 it was not the same we had almost a million people passed by 800 000 we didn't have this level of violence that we have now with less people within human conditions in moria when when people were trapped with all this violence inside and outside in moria and with the rhetoric of the local authorities and the government talking about criminals about detention about people that they are unwanted the first of they went out vocally and they were in the in the press and they were mobilizing people where the local authorities the mayor the prefect the local governor actually they were calling people to stop i mean their entrance to moria the privilege these privileged people in march they couldn't because of the covid because all all of this happened and Erdogan using them as a bomb and the rhetoric in the media was they are coming we are facing a threat the people were a threat publicly everywhere in the media greeks were protecting their country by stopping refugees from coming that was insane and of course there was farce that they were profit they made profit of this rhetoric and they there was a generalized xenophobic and racist rhetoric that was spread all over angios were criminals angios were bringing the people they were smuggling everywhere you hear this they they they and of course when the authorities the local authorities are calling them to mobilize and stop people by entering like the boat that they were throwing stones to in the first of march at this point this they make blocks this is a fastest practice and not always was interfering they were stopping cars of volunteers of refugees of tourist even because they had the they were not locals and they were throwing stones they were beating people they were the extreme violence in the first of march first to three of march this year we had 300 cars broken by locals they were stopping locals the locals to see if they carry refugees or if they carry food it was crazy and nobody's talking about this all our cars were broken people were threatened they were um facebook threats physical threats beating of people beating of refugees crazy the level of violence was crazy and how do you explain this this level of violence like is this rhetoric spreading out is this um it's a combination it was the bad moment that we had the riots against the government because they were trying to to build a camp here and this because we all participated in the resistance to the new camp after this it was Erdogan sending the refugees as a bomb it was the local media talking about the threat and patriotism and whatever it was the local authorities calling the the locals to as a you know this calling them to mobilize against refugees that we were protecting our country and all this rhetoric of course about the corrupted NGOs all of the NGOs were corrupted all of us were NGOs no activists the activists were very bad and they were bringing all this was there and it was allowed it was vocal it was everywhere and i'm really i believe that people were tired in Georgia they they are tired living next to a camp that is people are suffering that's a lot of violence i understand this but people going against people people stopping children of a landing it's unacceptable and should have been i mean it should have been a court and an investigation and still nothing happened no it's really this position of of the lawless um kasev i think i have two questions uh one is what is f f he's also mentioning is this idea of uh criminalization not only of refugees but also of NGOs and and the alarm phone is also i mean i was just looking at the website and is also putting today an article about threats that NGOs are getting captains of rescue boats and putting to to trial etc so one of my question is is this is getting worse and what is it fueled by and the other question is um i believe you are a lot operating a lot in in the german context also if i'm right uh and so in the Netherlands um germany was very much praised by Merkel's wir schaffen das on the same time she of course came back also to a lot of the of uh let's say initial openness or opening the borders so could you share a bit with us your impressions on if it comes to the repercussions it had uh for german society so first i want to just mention something the race of right wing not connected to refugiation but politician loves to put the claim on refugees and migration flow just to satisfy the right wing population and they have this kind of populistic speech to please them so uh it's it's not all because that uh the people not new european coming to europe uh effecting or driving us to this race of right wing no and actually as if it was saying like right wing like the local people were doing awful illegal actions against the humans and there is no reaction from the authorities there is no investigation there is not a single uh court case and the other side you find that the are not just it's it's not about the criminalization of the migrants it's not about the criminalization of refugees or even of the civil society NGOs now it's criminalizing asylum itself as it says something bad that we have to get rid of like instead of canceling the asylum system no we just criminalizing the asylum itself we criminalizing the refugees we criminalizing the people who move we criminalizing the operations itself we criminalizing the NGOs help and we are criminalizing even the normal people who got uh embassy about the situation and trying to help with their personal resources personal resources like driving a car or delivering a food or medical equipment this is crazy so and now when it comes to the german context actually the open investigations on the NGOs working in the refugee assistance supporting sector instead of opening investigation on the right wing's groups killing people like in hanau six months ago they killed they go to the shisha bar to a coffee shop and they opened fire to the people and in the end for sure the conclusion is a psychopath they don't want to say it it's a systematic behavior because of the media because of the politician uh language actually they want to control people through fear so what's the risk ah ardu ghan is opening the borders people are coming this is a risk out of ignorance ignorant like ignorant people don't say this is a kind i'm sorry but we are living in a capitalism huh and this is could be a chance this is a human resources and the other side germany is saying that our labor market need new skills need migrants and hand waters and experienced and expats but they don't think about that we have already people arrive at here and we just given training and orientation and also the misuse of the integration actually integration it's a linguistic it's a nice word because it's it's the interaction between two cultures between two human being civilizations it's it's not about including someone inside the new society and you have to follow otherwise what the meaning of this integration won't see me like me myself living here in germany for more than three years or something and i didn't meet a single german who really integrated in this german society so what integrate it's different like it's different from the capital from berlin different from frankfort from hamburg like even inside the different cities when i was in greece it's totally different in the islands in sassoumi niki in in Athens but we we don't say it openly we didn't say it clearly we just talk about general manners about general social behavior that one everyone in the society follow and and and this is really this is the problem here yeah so it has it's a lot of it has a lot to do with language also this idea of a myth the myth of one nation state the myth of one nationality the myth of integration it's all kind of mystified language that actually hides a lot of systematic inequality systematic oppression systematic exclusion and and and so i would like to go back to that question again of course what to do but before i want to put it a bit aside still although we also slowly it's already nine o'clock but i will take a bit more time and then check i see already that there is a yes okay so there is one question coming in and i would like to read it because it's so close to what we're discussing so one of the question is what can i as a european citizen do to change the situation i feel very powerless so i think this very much resonates with what we're feeling as well or as at least what i'm feeling uh also but before we try to give this person an answer and i would like to even make it a bit more complicated because of course we tend now to focus a lot on the borders of europe and and refugee camps like moria that became very uh known afi's image disappeared i hope she's still with us there she is um but uh and i think kashif you also part of your research is also focusing on what's happening in turkey what's happening in in egypt in in in libya so there are of course a lot of refugee camps also the other side of the mediterranean where we maybe speak much less about and even worse uh european union started a lot of deals making deals with regimes in in libya and turkey so could you maybe both of you share a bit what's happening there like on what level should we imagine people and what circumstances are people there uh what where should change happen if it comes to um make create better conditions for the people at the other side that we're not even able to cross yet and uh how come how is it possible and how what are the consequences of these deals that we are creating with these regimes and so for example if i'm if i wanted to talk about the EU relations with the third countries it was famous in 2016 the scandal of the deal it's a deal it's not an agreement it was a deal with turkey gave them money to close the borders and keep the people there the situation in in turkey actually for refugees outside the camps or inside the cans and it's it's not okay it's not okay at all they they have no right for a lot of things the unhcr there cannot operate and cannot work without a permission from the state and this is the same case in egypt in egypt for example there is no national asylum law it's all on the unhcr and unhcr all the time complaining that they have low capacity and they have to get permissions from the state and the situation in libya i think it's it's it's own like last year the cnn did a report and it was kind of if you want to go there if you don't afraid of your life and you don't have fears and your agency leave you to go there to do a piece about the things happening there it's obvious it's public it's there for years that's why what makes people actually want to cross because in the first stage no one will leave his her home one no one will leave her comfort zone okay her house family the life that you used to leave if there is not really danger in your life and that's what makes people in the first stage flee from their homeland from the places that they raised in and they have the memories in and then they moved to another country for example it's it's it's a really big topic if we want to speak in details but for example in egypt i witnessed when syrian just to flee syria because the situation and the wars there and just to flee to egypt just to reside in egypt to leave in egypt and the situation was not handle at all it it was really crazy you don't have the right to work you don't have access to public hospitals you don't have the access to the education system you have nothing and the and there even if you have this asylum card it's a yellow u n c r yellow cards there if you have this asylum card you have to go to the egyptian migration authority to renew your residence every six months that pushed people and forced people to leave to cross the sea to go to turkey to cross from igian because it's easier and shorter than central mediterranean but all the times they were crossing from egypt and from libya and and that makes people arrive here in europe and actually all the time i i say that it's not a european responsibility to solve the global migration issue handle your internal crisis handle your issues inside first but what e u do when is paying money millions billions of money every year just to manage the migration what they call migration crisis they have a big strategy called migration crisis management and there's a lot of money really egypt alone takes 60 million euros from the african trust fund for development projects and projects related to refugees this is just one country huh so imagine if we spend this amount of money inside europe for call it integration projects call it development projects call it whatever you want a project just to include the newcomers the migrants inside the society to teach them the local languages to teach them different technical skills that helped them to go into market because they want to be productive but when you put a human being in hold for two years at least waiting for a paper so they can move they can live a normal life what we call normal life for sure they lose the orientation so this is a big problem and actually just about the question that you said what to do every single european citizen have the power we are living in a democratic countries at least we still have this democratic system you have the power of voting you have the power of putting pressure and the in your politicians and your national politicians you have the power to speak with your neighbors you have the power to go print a small info sheet from the internet and print it and distribute it in your neighborhood in your city this is a power you are not powerless wherever you are you are not powerless person you have a lot of tools to do if you cannot be an activist or you seen this activism is a big world and i cannot get involved do this small things use the tools in your hand thank you kashab i think that's indeed very important because we also tend to kind of lament about our own powerlessness and that's also very privileged of course so i think indeed pointing at the very basic and important things that we can do is super important on the same time i think part of the this powerlessness comes from the fact that and i'm looking at at afi and and and imagining how tired you might be and you told me about possible eviction of pikpa so you're also having a lot of let's say struggles and worries that are there at this very moment and here we are with the two of us very probably aware uh repeating things to each other that we know that we are so uh angry and frustrated about but that we feel we still have to keep on repeating and on the same time we know the information is there so if it's about information sheets if it's about talking to our neighbors they the neighbors could also be informed it so it's a matter of do you want to be informed so what do we do against this probably populist rhetoric that is very difficult sometimes to fight with information also maybe it's not about information maybe it's about finding metaphors maybe it's about finding emotions that can help for people to make this click that we created this myth of fear whereas actually there is plenty of space to share there's plenty of possibility to be together and become a better nation instead of this terrible deep intense black chapter that we're creating and that seems to be never ending with so much guilt and so much death and so much oppression um afi um maybe you could share uh your struggles at the moment for pikpa and and also uh take a moment for a call out that we can at least all listeners that feel powerless even though we've all listened to kashif what we can do we can even do more uh signing a very important call of of afi that you will uh talk about a bit now and maybe you could also respond to what we're talking about now this feeling of okay how do you continue how do you continue to keep on hope um look i i thought i agree with kashif i also believe that uh we cannot give up because it's about our future it's about what what we want for this future for this world for this europe so i think we cannot go back to this we can do small things i think the best the the most important thing is not to give up first and then to work all of us because we need to work together to find new ways to connect new ways to react and it's it's a process it's something that is for all all our life but it's important to find it it's important to work on it small things bigger things stay connected be aware as much as we can and not to live i mean to understand that this is a struggle for our life for our future it's very very important and it's in one way for me really i'm not saying that we need to suffer or to do the big activists small things stay connected and somehow being there it's the eighth eviction threat for pickpum but this time is hard because the moment they decided this new i mean terrible camp because they they store the moria was burned and i think the only good thing that can happen with moria was to be burned finished it was not it was i mean there was so we didn't celebrate because people stayed in the streets racism xenophobia grow we were worried about these people being hungry in the streets of lesbos the authorities couldn't even feed them and they created the they found the military place they put them in the idea of the camp prevails e u is is supporting them that's the most i mean the really frustrating aspect and the really dangerous aspect of these policies okay we put them in the in a camp with tents with nothing with no water no electricity this is details they don't need water and electricity some food some organization feeding them like animals sorry it's disgraceful and with a lot of funds okay and we put them also in another fence fence the covid the the ones that they were in covid covid case we put them also in a fence great anyway in this context the government decided that they will call close all the alternative camps like pickpum with dignified conditions and karate pedad is a camp for 1200 people that is quite for vulnerable and they will gather all the people in this new camp which has no standard and europe is watching them and we have to fight again for people and for the what for for basic things that dignity human places are more needed more than ever and if we stop more yeah and if we want to to to to save this society of lessons that is a is really threatened by fascism and xenophobia and racism we need to be conscious the island today we need to pay take people in human conditions to share burden and make a plan after so many years about what will happen with these people they are not animals they are not they are people we cannot move them from one place to the other and be being unwanted in different places and suffering and keep only the dignified shelters that exist and the it is also a much cheaper solution because this what they are creating there will cost a lot of money for people to suffer the europe will pay a lot of money so we call people because we have 15 days people will be closed according to the ministry of migration and minister of labor in the 15th of august and the end of december caratebe so we in our facebook it's lesbo solidarity uh pika we call people we have a separate action which is called say pika say dignity please follow this and then we have all the actions there all these days the people there is also a call for groups and the collectives already 170 they sign a call for for action and against the closure of pika in our campaign and we are putting color all over pika now so we try also the active friends of choirs musicians painters we are painting the place and we believe that is a symbol of solidarity and we have to go on i mean it's it may for me it's unreasonable to to to try to protect pika when a monster is creating next to us so safe pika safe dignity a campaign it's on our facebook um join it share with us we try to to to have different actions and stay connected we need this we need to keep on going absolutely thank you so much so lesbo solidarity facebook safe pika i don't know if i write it here but i don't know if i can yes yes yes yes go a little yes yes perfect keep it in in the so safe pika safe dignity put it on your facebook or facebook and i will learn also the lesbo solidarity and follow all the actions around lesbo solidarity and save pika very important and we need to understand that now in lesbo try and we have a case about alarm phone we don't know when will be our case but we are all staying connected with them because what we what they are fighting is that people are not drowned in the sea that people no more lives will we lose more lives in this very friendly sea aegean and that we will stop the violation of rights of people which is a european policy which is pushback pushbacks are happening every day now and they put the life of people i'm not talking about the rights in danger and instead of stopping pushback we criminalize NGOs that are working against it it's disgraceful it's insane it's insane insane kasev what what think of this extreme absurdity that afi is articulating so well about the fact that actually this creation of pushbacks prisons border is costing so much money and it's creating bombs out of humans that then create even more violence how to change this this crazy absurd absurdistic logic that is in the end killing us all because i think that's very important what afi is saying is that the only the only way forward is to fight this because it's actually also about our lives and i think that's really important that we should understand if we want a world that we can stand for if we can live a world in which we don't have the feeling that we have to violate morally ourselves constantly we should we should fight now so please kasev any thoughts that you still want to share because we are rounding up but any thoughts that you still want to share about this i would say it's all about knowledge about education it's all about optimism and not to lose hope for all the people that they are involved in this situation to keep going on to keep resist this absurd and this ridiculous behavior of different states to put pressure and the politicians to change the policies to keep speaking out with people with different people because there is actually people that they are not politicized they they they don't care they don't see the point that you are discussing now about making pumps out of humans because of the violations they face so simply each one teach one this this this actually was a simple strategy i would say that we learned from the black african civil movement in the states they kept their struggle and they still fighting and they still struggling about their rights and we we learn from this movement a lot since ages like since decades at least 60 years and they still doing that they still educating the new generation they don't lose the hope they are looking for a change and when for the first time in the history the u.s had a black president for sure it didn't last for sure he was also going with the same political identity of the state but the thing that we cannot stop until we see the society that we are like to live in or at least when we are dying and it's our end of the time on the earth we feel that we didn't stop we don't regret a simple move that we make for seeing a better life not just for for others but also for us thank you so much kachev effy for this very moving words i'm deeply touched each one teach one i think that's really beautiful to end with also because with that sentence you combine different struggles that are so much inspiring each other and reinforcing each other i have one last thing to share because also in belgium there's an action coming from cultural institutions demanding for a belgium society to take on refugees and they are actually and again school of resistance is launching a call as we want to ask european policymakers that every art and cultural institution that signed this open letter to the european commission be given the right to receive and support a refugee we therefore ask for visa for belgium for one refugee per signatory let's re-humanize europe together so this is one small action that we started and everyone that interested and wants to sign the petition can go to entegent.be and hopefully it's made possible for every cultural institution to support a refugee by applying for visa. thank you so so much effy let's say Muhammad al kachev for your super important input your courage your strength your energy your time to spend with us please let us know let's stay in touch whenever we can help each other to find each other and use the resources we have to amplify our voices thank you so much keep on the good work thank you so much thank you thank you thank you have a nice evening bye thank you bye bye