 Welcome to another episode of the nonprofit show and we're really excited because today we have on one of my favorite guests of all times and Macaulay Lopez from agency content writer. And you know what, I love when we get to spend time with you because you don't make me feel dumb. You don't make me feel foolish and you give me permission to say, we can do better. And that's always a good thing. And this is really important because the web is where it's at. If anything, COVID has pushed us even to become more dependent on our digital assets and our websites. And so this is why we need to talk to Ann about this and get all of her amazing knowledge. Again, if we haven't met. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Jared ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself will be back with us tomorrow. We want to make sure we thank all of our sponsors from Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy fund raising Academy, the nonprofit nerd herself, your part time to take nonprofit Atlas and of course the nonprofit thought leader. Okay. And Macaulay Lopez. Wow, we've had you on before to talk about a lot of different things, but you said something magical to me that is like, it's like a hair and fire moment. You said it was right as we were getting the cameras to roll. I don't want to put good content on a bad website. And that just framed things up for me like, whoa. So let's start with that. Can you just briefly explain to me what that means to you before we start hammering you with all these questions. Yes. So I operate with a high level of integrity. And so I never want to produce good content that goes on a website that's not going to do what it should be doing. There's a certain way that Google reads a website. There's certain ways that we can write content and format content and design a website that will give us that Google love and push to where we need it. And it just looks good, right? For our followers and our donors and our supporters and volunteers and all the people that you have and that you want to attract. But I just, I had a conversation a couple weeks ago and I said, listen, I said, I get you want to work with me. We want to create great content. But the reality is, I can't put it on the website you have. It's an older website. It's just not doing what we want it to do. So I'm so sorry I set your hair on fire, Julia. It's a pleasure to be here with you. But yeah, that's my thought that's always my thought is gosh, I can write good content, but where are we putting it and where is it being used and if it's not going to a good spot then let's talk about that let's let's find, let's find folks who can help. So, it does change by by you saying that it does change the way I think about this. But I think maybe we need to back up a little bit and start with the basic information. When we're talking today about hiring somebody. She said, you know, you traded with a college student you, you found somebody that was new. I mean the nonprofit sector, it's always like, I got a guy who's got a cousin he's got a sister who's going to community college learning to be a website. I'm not everybody's first website is like that though it's beautiful. It's beautiful just get one. And then we can, we can build from that and what's that what's that phrase don't compare yourself to where you are today to somebody who's been doing this for. I've been 11 and a half years, 15 years, 30 years, whatever it is. Go from where you are today and just start. And I think there are definitely some basic things we can talk about. Yes, get those referrals. Ask things like, you know, how many websites have you designed. Have you designed a website for a nonprofit. It's not a non starter. But there may be, there are some functionalities that a nonprofit website would need that a basic business website like mine doesn't need to have the donation button. Yes. Yeah. And there's some functionality to that that needs to be built in. And so it would be kind of like do you have somebody who's willing to go out and find the information or something like that. They have the experience that obviously they they can do it. How long will it take to build, you know, it's, I think mine was six weeks, I had to provide some content and I think we'll get to that of course in the conversation. But really, yeah, how long does it take if you want the big beautiful website because you have a big event coming up or a big push coming up, then you've got to kind of back up the timeline and find somebody who can do it within your timeline, or, or not. I mean, I don't know, it kind of depends. So let me ask you and do you think that that I mean, I have to say until you just said this, I hadn't really thought of it like that in terms of a project time. Do you think that's a pretty safe way to think about this is that six week, six to eight weeks or is it four to six? So I think there's, I think there's folks who do it four to six weeks and I what makes that possible is when you know your brand, when you know this is what the organization does, this is who we serve. This is who we're looking for. And then maybe what's the project or campaign that you want to push first on the website. So maybe that's featured on the homepage or something like that. So that you can kind of find that web designer ask them the questions and really get them to work. If you're not sure about your brand, you're like, well, we're not sure what we're doing. That's going to push that timeline farther. And so that leads me into, before we go on, we use the word assets, and you see that a lot in web design. It's like, well, what are your assets and you're always like, well, it's like, that's a little personal. Can you explain to us what that actually means when we're looking to hire or contract out our web design. Oh, I was like, I have a great smile. It's really the images and content. When I write for clients, they own the content. It says that in our agreement. I'm not going to keep your, I don't need the American nonprofit academy content. It's for you. That's why I wrote it. The web designer should hand off the login for your, for your website to you. That used to be a huge problem. It's, it's a lot less of a problem now. They may stay on as administrator. If maybe they're doing some updates for you or some additional work or something like that. I always keep my website person on. And I always tell them, like, when I break the site, you still have access, right? Because I will break the site. Right. Right. Right. So when you talk about this, it's really an interesting thing because I think about the nonprofit sector. If you're dealing with children under the age of 18 minors under the age of 21, you're dealing with healthcare HIPAA. You can't just like pop out onto your campus or take pictures of your clients. I mean, you the nonprofit sector, it seems like we have another pressure point on this when it comes to creating these assets. Are you telling us that we need to show up to the web designer with, with a folder of all these images ready to turn over? Or can they help us with that? Or what does that look like? They can help you. Definitely. They, they should be able to help you. If it's, you know, you can get photos online. I recommend, obviously if it's an on profit to have some of real projects that you've done. You can get photos with a photo release. So I've gone to volunteer events with nonprofits. And they say, will you sign a photo release? They ask out loud. Is everybody okay? If it's a large events, like, you know, LLS light the night, they'll say, Hey, just so we know, like everyone's being photographed. If you're not good with it. You know, you've everyone assigned a release as part of your signing up for whatever the event is. So I know we may appear in photos. And that's typically, in my experience, that's been, that's what has happened. So because there is a release, which you should have the photos that you have in your little bank of photos should be okay to use again, please be careful with children. There are people out there who take photos of kids and do their bad things. We won't even get into that because it just gives me anxiety. But that's where we want to be careful. And with foster kids, they're protected. There are certain reasons why they need to be hidden and not photographed. But, you know, if you've got a playground at your facility, or you did an event to beautify a playground, and you've got the kids there, then maybe it's the back of the heads. It's kids playing, but not their not their faces. There's ways to do it to capture your brand without kind of violating people, I guess, you know, not giving them their privacy. I love that. Okay, so we've figured out kind of like some of those things that maybe when we're interviewing or thinking about going out and hiring somebody. Now we need to talk about the brass tacks. And that is at the front of so many decisions that we make for good or for bad the costs. And you bring up something really interesting that I don't know if I really thought about but there's the difference between doing a website as a project, or an hourly contract, and can you explain to us what you think is a better choice. I know for me, when I write for websites, I always do it as a project. Okay. And the website designers that I work with do them as projects. I think the reason is then we then we all know we were able to then scope the project out and say here's what we're doing here's how many pages. I would say in that contract it should say something like, if we go out of this scope, whatever the scope is, it's going to cost X dollars per hour. That's kind of what I do as a writer. So that we stay within scope and if it's out of scope and they want an additional page or something like that it will cost more. I think on the upfront talking to the web designer about what kind of functionality it needs so that they can build a project scope for us. That really works for what we need, and there may be some negotiation, but I always feel like that contract piece is kind of the last part of that initial conversation, because we should know what we're working on and again that speaks to knowing your knowing your brand knowing your organization of what you need and what you want. I think it's a phase one and a phase two you say we're going to do the basics we need a giant donation button, we're doing a project to fix up the playground or whatever it is, and we want to give this a big push. And then in six months, let's talk to us after we have our big event or after we kind of reassessed or we fall into a new fiscal year even that we can do another project with you down the road. And that's always something to talk to talk to them about. The other thing is that I have, I have somebody that I work with she's a web designer and developer. She does a lot on the design side like 50% design 50% development and the development pieces all that language that you and I Julia, we don't know anything about we know we need a big donation button and we needed to do what it needs to do in the background right like that's not our that's not our forte and that's why we hire people. And so she's really amazing because she has those conversations with folks you build a website. She says I don't do the content. So for me, it's a beautiful marriage. And she says up front listen this is it. Here's what here's what I've done in the past with other nonprofits because she's worked with nonprofits. Here's what I think it's going to cost and then she has a maintenance plan. And it's a really hearty maintenance plan and you pay a per month fee, and she has a special press for nonprofits. And you get, I think it's like 20 hours of maybe even 24 hours of updates, so that you can push out a new website within that short timeframe and then know that you've got these other hours to say okay we're done with the, I don't know why I'm stuck on thinking about my niece and nephew. We're still we're done with playgrounds now we're going to push our gala or we're going to push our food drive. And we want to make that the front page can you help us with on our maintenance plan. Do another page for this other event we're doing or other, you know, planned giving page or whatever it is. So I think that's a really great way to be able to serve nonprofits and really support you and what in what you're doing. So what I hear you saying and I, and I think this is really interesting. I hear you saying that the website. It's not a one and done. It's like a basic frame but then you need to be open to saying, according to how we, we navigate our mission vision and values. We can put up pages we can pull them down we can make them event based. I think that's a really healthy lesson because nothing is static. I mean we hopefully we're getting better you know we're solving problems we're embracing new problems whatever. I like that you said that, and to kind of put that forward to for us to realize. This is not a project that has a beginning middle and end it has more of a beginning and a middle and a middle and a middle is that do you think that's accurate. It can yeah I think the initial is its own project we have a start and a stop. And that really leads us to that that payment point that we want to talk about which is. I think standard is 50% upfront 50% at some point in the project it's either when we're done or at a certain number of days 60 days or when we're done kind of a thing. So that you know exactly what it costs exactly when that payments to when are we kicking off the project. And that it sits as its own, but that there are other either you do a one and done, and you call it that web designer when you're ready to make changes or you go on a maintenance program that allows for those changes within within their services. My web person does the same thing so I'm able to go to him to say, can we switch this out can we do this add a picture here I had a photo shoot change this picture kind of thing. I'm going to change my about page you know whatever it is included. So that's an ongoing. And, and in that way you can build out the, the pages that you need as, as it changes and I think it really speaks to Julian and I were talking about you know, what do we do before the pandemic and what are we doing now that's so different and the the operating factor in that part of our little conversation was change, we're all changing so why not allow for that on our on our website and our digital marketing. Yeah, I love that and I think to and you know, we hear this and we know this we're hearing this more and more about funders, you know before they ever talked to us or sometimes you might even research organizations that they want to go with. They're looking at our websites. You know they're, they're, they're reaching out in a way that we might not really know, you know, and so I think that's even more of a reason to really understand this so we've, we've talked about some brass when it comes to, you know, the website really briefly before we move on to something else. Can you explain what the concept of hosting is, and some of these, these technical things that aren't pretty but they make things work. The background stuff nobody wants to talk about the web designer will talk about it with you hosting hosting is where your, where your website lives who's hosting go daddy is a big one. There's also web designers and developers that have their own hosting, they have their own servers where your website can live it has to live somewhere. So that's, that's where that's where it lives. Now, we want to make sure that we can do backups. The reason we have that on the list is when we update the site we want to have a backup copy and we want to have ongoing backups and I know this because my website was hacked. And they were able to go to one of the backups and at least restore it to that point. And it was just me adding blog posts so I just added the blog posts back. But when I didn't have that they were like, we don't, we don't know what we can do we can restore it to what it was in the beginning and I was like, Okay, I need, I need to know what this is. Especially if you've got content on there and you have projects you've done you're adding articles and blog posts and links and all of that it's really important to have it backed up on an interim every month every two weeks every week every night whatever it is depending on the size of your organization. Okay. And then before we move on to the next thing because I have so many more questions. Domain name control. Okay, that like control. I mean, what you mean to tell me that a nonprofit might not control their domain name. Anybody, it used to be a website designers. They would, I think it was probably just how we did business back then, they would keep the login information like they kind of had drove the website and what went on in the background. Now it's not they will, I've been giving given test sites to use to say, Hey, what do you think about this design what would you what do you like what do you change when we go live and I'm like, Okay, I'll hand off the login information. They've also set it up where I say, Hey, I need to have somebody else on my team have a login, or I need the blogger to have a blogger login, which that's possible the only thing I can do on those websites is just add the blog post I can't touch the rest of the site. So having control of that is really important. And then just the SSL certification that we've got there is just the security is a security certificate. You probably notice it when you go to a website it says this doesn't have the SSL or needs a certificate, and you can't get in because your browser won't let you. That just means they're not up to date with something in the background that their their web administrator needs to needs to update. Okay, cool. So the security, it's a security thing but yes absolutely get control to the same thing like graphic designers used to keep logos and I'm like why it's my logo it's kind of like my writing like I'm just going to give it to you. Yeah, great idea I can write something else you know. Well, it's it's an issue of control and I agree with you I mean for it so it's yours. It holds this hostage. Now, the reality is, we are in the back in the day when we first started, you know, websites, everybody had kind of the same size computer in their office or their home. Now we have phones, we have laptops, we have tablets. I mean, so performance. This is a big, big issue. And you say the first thing quick to load what is that what does that actually speak to. It's the speed that your website loads on the browser. That is something that Google gives you love for if you load fast enough and it danger if it doesn't load fast enough. Okay, I think super nonprofits we like to have videos and photos of our, the people that we serve of our team and all of that and so that can slow it down so we want to make sure that we do have the speed that we want, even if it's heavy with that kind of content in the background. So, yeah, a web designer can kind of help navigate that. So if you know that you've got video and photo heavy, a photo heavy website that may be a question that you ask them to say, are you familiar? So is there a way that we can make sure that this site still loads fast. The other thing is you mentioned cell phones. So that's the mobility that is a mobile friendly is what it's called. So you want to make sure that the website you get is mobile friendly and it looks good on mobile. When I logged in I was working on a client's website yesterday they're on Squarespace and it actually gave me so it's like Squarespace WordPress, all of those web builders gave me the option to see what the article looked like on a mobile phone which I thought was really cool. And it was just a click you click the phone icon and I was like, Oh, well this looks good on a phone also and I knew that that website is mobile friendly. So, I think most websites are but it's also kind of an important question to ask. Taking online donations that goes to, you know, the functionality of the website and making sure that it not only has the capability, but when it does have that capability is the website going to run the way it needs to run. You know, if we do a push for donors and everybody's clicking that button like we would absolutely love everybody on Tuesday night we're doing a telephone, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, we wanted to run we want to make sure that it's got the capability, it's got the storage space and all of that so it's built to do more than just what it needs to do today. You know, I am. I've heard this from so many different nonprofits. You know the whole thing be careful what you wish for and I've had an interface with several nonprofits who out of the blue, got major national press in a good way. One of them was CNN feature that they didn't even know they were going to be mentioned, and then they just have this like global influx of people going on to their website to make donations. And they were small they were like an average between like five and $25 but there was just a boatload of them in a crash, their site, and it happened on a Sunday morning. It was just catastrophic for this little group that, you know, and I'm not saying that, you know, everybody's going to come back and say well, and be respectful oh they're down I'll come back on Monday or I'll come back a couple hours no you've lost that opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. Technology. Yeah. Well, not much time left. I want to make sure that we let everybody know you, of course, also known as the bad ass blogger. You've got some powerful stuff sister on your website. And so I love that this conversation if you want to amplify it or maybe visit this and hand it off to somebody in your team that's going to be contracting a web designer or searching for more information, a great article about this that's on your site but honest to goodness and you've got some great pieces on your blog page that fit into this. And so I really want to encourage everybody to look at this because the key here is that content right I mean, you've got to make it engaging. Absolutely. Yes, engaging content we want to be telling stories I can't tell you how many folks I've talked to just the beginning of this year. Say, we want to be telling stories we want to tell talk about brands that we love we want to talk about our families that we've helped and I think that's really powerful so like for my husband and I. During COVID he was out of work and I have a medical condition and need we have extra medical bills basically, and we went to two different organizations and got grants. We were given money by them and so I tell both of those organizations, you need a video testimonial, you need a couple you need a family like we're in we're all in to provide some content for you and get the ball rolling to get other people engaged to do the same. And the beauty of the technology now is that we can do it on our phones, make a video on your phone and send it. And, and that's, that's just amazing and it's a, it's a great way to be able to to support organizations. There's another blog post that I have on on my agency content writer.com there's another one that I did, and it's called a what's the purpose of your website. And it's an interesting take that I just kind of experienced working with working with one of my partners we built out a website and I wrote the content. And they were basically wanted to be, we want to be the experts we want to just show what we do so that when someone comes to the website. They know who we are and that we're great at what we do and they want to partner with us. They were not a nonprofit but it got me thinking well gosh what is the purpose of the website. In the office there's a lot right we want volunteers we want donors we want to help people whoever the people are that we serve. So who do we want to highlight so maybe on the initial rollout or depending on the time of year or the season that it is for your, for your nonprofit. That's what you highlight initially, and then kind of map it out what do we do next. So I thought that was that might be an interesting one as well to just kind of think about rethink what is your website doing for your organization. You said that and because you know, a lot of what we've been talking about here today has been donor centric but you're absolutely right how are you connecting to your clients how are you connecting to volunteers corporate sponsors, the intellectual side, you know the intellectual side, if you are providing data and information that's research that can maybe be instituted or impact and another organization such as yours. In another part of this world, how are you, how are you doing that I mean sharing knowledge it's such a powerful way to move us through our mission vision and value I mean it's just been remarkable to hear you talk about this and I really want to redo my own website. We have some people who can help you Julia. Oh, man, I'm telling you. Well, you know, anyone I'm going to say feel free to reach out to me. I have referral partners, I've got partners that have done design websites specifically for nonprofits. And I've written for nonprofits and I'm actually doing some writing for Jared right now so I need to get it. I have another client as well. So absolutely reach out. I'd be happy just to have a conversation there's a link on my website to set up just a 30 minute coffee chat. Great. And thank you Julia, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. Hey, listen, I love your energy I love what you say you. I feel like you take something that's very mysterious and frightening, and you make it achievable. And you explained to us why we need these to make these investments, and that you kind of empower us at the same time to make these investments and and this is about working with contractors so the more. I always like to say, the better client we can be the better result we're going to get right. So this type of information helps us to be better clients and so I'm just thrilled with your information. Check out Ann's website and reach out. She's amazing. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, Jared ransom my co host will be back tomorrow. We want to make sure to thank all of our presenting sponsors without you, we would not be here having these discussions. You've joined us for a special episode of the nonprofit show, our nonprofit thought leaders are very rare and beloved people that we have identified as folks that really have something to say for our entire ecosystem in the nonprofit sector. So we are grateful you have been here. And you're a treasure. I'm so appreciative that you joined us. And as we sign off. Yeah, we want to say thank you and we want to remind everyone to stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.