 guess we'll whoa hello guess we'll call in the transportation advisory board meeting for December 12th call to order let's do a roll call Taylor Wicklin Patrick Hinterberger David McInerney Steve Lainer here Diane Christ here councilmember Yarbrough okay we'll move on to approving the minutes of the preceding meeting from November I need a motion to approve I'll move to approve the minutes from our November meeting to have a second second the motion all those in favor okay and I guess we've added an item we'll go ahead and have a discussion and a nomination process for the vice chairperson role on the transportation advisory board do I have any nominations I nominate Diane Christ to become our vice chair any other nominations okay I guess we'll just do a quick vote then all those in favor of Diane Christ being vice chairperson of the transportation advisory board say aye okay and we'll move on to communications from staff great thank you chair Lainer my name is Phil Greenwald transportation planner with the planning manager with the city of Longmont just wanted to quickly introduce we talked a little bit about this last month that we had hired a new transportation administrative administrator and that is Kyle Hayworth and here he is Kyle maybe you could just give us a little brief background and introduction thanks everyone I'm Kyle Hayworth I'm the transportation engineering manager nice to meet you all I'm looking very forward to working with you guys to help improve safety of the city I came from the city of North Glen just kind of surrounded by Thornton so I've dealt with a lot of more city traffic and commerce and but I am local I did grow up in Loveland so grew up there came up here and I'm slowly moving back and more north it feels like so I guess that's great to work with you guys and look forward to make me community a lot safer okay welcome we were excited to have Kyle on board obviously said this will be this is good news for the city of Longmont so appreciate him coming tonight we'll probably let him go if he needs to but he might stick around for a little while here to see how things go just wanted to also talk a little bit about the mayor's transit meetup that happened on December 3rd so we Jim was reminding me that we entered through some doors that had been I guess the First Amendment was used to put some signs up that said what they felt about cars and some of them were a little bit more and well non-discreet than other messages but it was pretty much cars kill was the message and so we did see that as we walked in the door but once we got inside there was a pretty good crowd and I know board member Wicklund was there as well and I think board member Chris I saw you in the audience not I didn't get to talk to you too much but apologize for that but we did have a pretty good turnout I think we had maybe 25 30 people but we had the front-range passenger rail folks kind of introduce the kind of the statewide ideas of transit and mostly rail it was the rail was the focus and that transitioned into an RTD discussion regional transportation district discussion about buses and rail and their you know their timelines and their their goals and how they see their role in that and working with front-range passenger rail quite frankly and then I kind of threw in some things about our local transit and just things we're thinking about maybe getting away from RTD a little bit and some of these things that RTD focus on the regional piece and then we were really talking about how we could focus on the local piece and maybe go out to a third-party private sector vendor for some of that so we're looking at some options that have been used around the country and so that was kind of it it I think it went pretty well like I said none of that maybe anger that was from the front of the building really translated into the actual meeting so that was nice it was a pretty pretty polite crowd and that's great shows well for Longmont I think with all the different folks that showed up but any any questions or any comments from the folks who were there I'd love to hear your take on how you felt things went Phil I thought you did a great job and I was very impressed with how the turnout for that event if I were going to point out any weakness I think it's in the state program for transportation you know I think I think we need a better plan for moving people throughout the state you know on the high decongesting the highways but I think our our local plan is solid and and also kind of the regional in terms of you know getting from Fort Collins to Boulder to Longmont was was yeah helpful and I think we've identified that we need a little better bit better bus service in Longmont a little better accessibility so maybe Taylor has some other ideas well original thoughts of the meeting because I was more excited about the rail discussion because I was 14 when fast tracks was passed and it still is not a thing so I'm hopeful I just wonder what what's gonna be the overall timeline and I did email Andy and you know can't give a timeline anyways so but you know I think Phil you did a great job I think Longmont's very progressive and trying to think forward beyond the car really I'm just hoping the regional part will sustain itself somehow to also improve you know you know could you give us a brief summary of some of the non RTD transit ID as you presented yeah unfortunately chair or chair Lane and board member McHenry I can't go into too many details but I do know there's a couple of groups out there we actually have via mobility services in Boulder County that's been very active as far as paratransit and I gave some bad information evidently to some of the folks and said that via was open to everyone anybody could take it and that's true if you're in a rural area but not in an urban area so in the urban areas in Longmont it really is for older adults and people with disabilities so we point people toward the flex ride service but via is kind of underlying all those different services so via has their own service they run they contract out with RTD for other mobility micro mobility services or microtransit services I should say smaller transit and they would be one of the people that may apply if we put out a request for proposal which we have to do by city code we'd have to put out a request for proposal and be pretty specific about how much we can spend on this and what we're looking for from a provider so it have to be very specific and they said that they'd be interested and then there's a via transportation services that's more national it's actually international but it's it's done a lot of things in Arlington Texas is one of the places where they operate there's a couple places in North Carolina and they're smaller most of our smaller cities kind of like Longmont and they have provided some information to us about what they can what they can provide and and those timelines we've really talked about waiting no more than 15 minutes to take a trip that lasts no more than 15 minutes across town and so that's our goals and it's really built for people who don't have access to a private vehicle so we're talking those are the kind of the three goals that we want to put into a request for proposals or a scope of work and that would go out nationally we'd let everybody know about it we would get many more than just those two that I've mentioned so but that's that has to go through this board we have to come back here we'd have to talk to you about it you'd have to make a recommendation to counsel so we have to go to counsel on that and we'd have to really start to get our ducks in a row for all the different things that that means because that's that's a fairly significant chunk of dollars so we need to go for some grants probably to get to get the you know the seed money to at least buy the equipment and then we'd have to talk about the sustainability of that because we don't want this to be like the bike share program where we kind of went in and there was a sponsorship piece of that and eventually they went away and it it kind of flopped quite frankly so we don't want that to happen here and that's that's part of this we just need a very sustainable approach and something that we can count on for years and not just year or a couple a couple months you know we need something that'll be there in the long term okay one last question was there any discussion about and this is aligning kind of with the comment you're talking about with the program of via about the last mile it seems to be that's the biggest challenge that we have with any sort of end-to-end whether to rapid transit to you know transportation plan when we're talking about commuting are we really addressing that last mile piece and was there any discussion of that I guess I would ask. Chair Lainer there were a couple questions about that and we really did try to talk about trying to mix in all the things that we you know a better more robust bicycle system a better more robust and I think I said safe reliable uncomfortable bicycle pedestrian system and transit system so all these different things and we talked about regional transit but then how does that translate into that more local gridded you know nearby transit and that idea of not waiting more than 30 minutes total for once you request a ride to get somewhere so we talked about a mix and a blend of all those different things to find cover that final mile or first mile thank you. Chair we had no more items from staff so that was it we have lots of things going on oh well that's not true we had one other thing I wanted to see if Jim would talk about the Boston Avenue bridge. So real quick informational item we've been working on the Boston Avenue bridge which is one of the phases of the RSVP improvement project that project we finally got that design done permitted it is now out to bid the bids are due in the I believe the third week in January so we anticipate seeing construction underway more than likely in March April timeframe it's right near left hand brewery which I'll help we've we the trails been closed in that area for quite some time this will be the next phase the next phase beyond that is the Army Corps of Engineers project they are at about 95 percent design anticipate that they will start construction in spring summer of this year but they have a they have a like a year timeframe on their project the Boston Avenue bridge is an 18 month project we do anticipate it will be built in stages anticipating that we will maintain the flow of traffic on Boston very good do we have any public invited here to be heard just staff okay I guess then we can move on to the information items starting with the crash report which I know that's been long-awaited sure I'm sorry I will introduce Caroline Michael who worked on that report almost exclusively so this is really her her baby and so I'll turn it over to Caroline to talk more about kind of the overall trends that we've noticed in the crash data for this latest year hello board does everyone have a copy of it with them because there's some hard copies over there anyone doesn't have one okay so I don't know how many of you like dug into this like way beforehand and already have questions like where and to go but um I was just gonna maybe like do a brief overview of like overall trends so from section one figure one which just has a list of every crash record we've recorded in the city back to 2000 we also have it back to actually like 1990 but I split it off at 2000 for some readability you can see there's 1,661 records in our system and that is the city system not necessarily counting any additional CDOT records which we'll get to but um so it's still higher than 2020 which is to be expected 2020 was a very low year in terms of crashes for pretty um like explanatory like self-explanatory reasons crap traffic went down quite a bit during COVID-19 we're still kind of below kind of the highs we were seeing from like 2015 to 2019 I think we were still I think PD was still an accident alert for at least part of 21 at the beginning so there's which he basically means that some of the more minor ones don't always get reported all the serious ones should still be included though but um in general we're kind of moving past any COVID-19 and anything I think we're seeing now might be more permanent in terms of just some shifts and like work from home becoming more popular and more people like utilizing that option and maybe not seeing the same peaks at some intersections especially during like the rush hour traffic times but um yeah we've also had but you can see from the blue line the injury or worse is kind of still in line with what we were seeing pre-COVID and we had seven fatalities in 2021 and that's counting crash numbers not necessarily individuals because one fatal crash can sometimes result in more than one fatality figure 1.1 I think has a better view of long wants population and how crashes have kind of changed in regard to population so even as our population has gone up we are still having like pretty high numbers or a pretty high crash rate black in like 2000 2001 despite having a lower population in the city but um yeah and the so the 16.6 crashes per 1,000 population is still a decrease from 2020 again but again we are not quite back at that pre 2020 level at this time I'm not sure how many we have for total for 2022 at this time but we'll see like kind of maybe next year how that ends up playing out for section two is a lot of kind of data about timing and when our crashes happen a lot of this is pretty similar to what it's been in the past so I don't think anything here was very surprising to me you know we get most of our 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. most of when these happen usually not too many during the early morning late night hours and you can kind of see from that figure 2.1 these trends have been pretty consistent for the past five years and then moving on most crashes on Friday again that's kind of how it's been for a while I don't have a very reasoned explanation for why that is but I'm pretty consistent less on Sundays kind of to be expected one thing is that it used to be that December was the highest like month for crash reports but it's actually kind of shifted to October and again I actually don't have much of an explanation as to why maybe we do have there's more that happen in like the back last six months of the year than like the first six months of the year again I don't 100% know why that happens because it's even higher in August, September than it is in February or March so again but it's pretty consistent with what's happened before so not too surprising in the data findings section 3 goes over some of the common causes of like impairment which is the DUI which is increasingly changing to include the new crash report that the state has actually actually calls out marijuana usage specifically which before they didn't and they actually made the change to that form in May 2021 so it'll be maybe interesting to see how much of that actually gets recorded but they've definitely been on the DUIs have been like pretty flat like overall over the 2000 the 21 but they're still like a lot higher than probably what from what we've liked to see like we saw some very high numbers in like 2018-19 yeah just a quick question if I could with the medical complications in this section with impairment how did they verify whether it's a medical complication versus let's face it somebody could be looking at their phone and say oh I had something happen where I passed out or whatever and so is that a concern that that could change or not give us an accurate picture when it comes to these numbers that's a good question and that's one I can't answer very well because they do have separate so the crash reports that they get they're separate contributing factors and so like medical complication is one of them but there's also ones that just cover distracted driving from cell phone usage you know other vehicle occupants radio and it goes on but as far as how many people might not be honest about that I don't know it's possible those have also been kind of on an upward trend which on one hand there is some like maybe demographic change like older populations people driving as they get into like more as they're like getting into the seven their 70s and 80s could contribute partially to that and unfortunately they usually don't say on the report what it really is like what it just says medical complication and that's kind of it so and I'm kind of as a side note to this that's not really on here but I'm triple a actually as a research division where they do like nationwide surveys and they just actually put out their most recent it's like the crash the driving safety culture index where they have like a random sample of like 2600 drivers nationwide some state-specific where they pull people about how dangerous to do you perceive this behavior to be behind the wheel versus okay but how many times did you actually do it in the past 30 days and the results are very interesting if you want to look it up so and there were quite a few as I remember like driving while like excessively drowsy like quite a few people like admit to doing that so it's triple a if you Google like triple a research yeah you can yeah you can find it online pretty easily and I haven't like they just put it out like in it was like December 22 so I haven't read through the whole thing but yeah a lot of people do admit to using their phones especially the you know hands-free which isn't perceived to be as dangerous as holding the phone to your ear but is so I think pretty distracting when you're driving so it's interesting to see how the public perception of that is so again other contributing factors still like make up the bulk of crashes we see so and one last question sorry no go ahead like ask questions please when I looked at the fatality reports on each one of those I was struck by how many distracted driving was the cause or contributing factor but we don't have any charts on distracted driving here we just have impairment medical drowsy those sorts of things but nothing about distracted driving so I'm just curious if are those numbers that are going to start getting tracked or we we can like that's something if like you're interested in seeing it I can like put it in to a table part of it is um is there a trend line to it that's the yeah I mean are we seeing a trend of higher distracted driving and I'm speaking from personal experience as a driver as a auto driver I see a lot of it now and and I just don't know if that is a trend or if it's just I just coincidence I'm just saying this yeah and it's also one of those things especially with cell phones that I suspect is probably under reported because there's not because they police usually don't get there until after the crash has already happened and if it's not serious they might not do I can't really speak for them but it might not be the most but um yeah might be under reported but that um yeah that has some it's not like delineated by the specific like subcategories of it but it might it gives some inside on that issue just going through it I guess I don't need to explain like every graph on here but a lot of the demographics you can see pretty young men are are often the driver's suspected of driving under the influence it's a more equal for some of the medical asleep fatigue crashes but it's still like young men a lot of them so I'm sure very various societal causes of that but probably won't speculate too heavily so vulnerable road users we've done this in the past slightly differently in the past we also included you know I'm always kind of on the fence whether or not to include motorcycles I didn't this time I think they're sufficiently different from like a bicycle or a pedestrian that they're more of a motor vehicle but again it's always something we can continue to point out on the report specifically Caroline I'm just in I think you've been referring to this there's just some relational data which I don't know how you would collect it but it would be helpful to if we were going to affect any of these numbers no some kind of cause and effect or some kind of patterns that we're seeing but I did notice and I guess I'm looking at figure 1.1 that for the most part that the trend in crash rates follows the population growth except for the years 2008 through 2014 where it's below the growth line and the only thing I can add to that is I know that's during the great recession I wonder if that had some impact on on crash rates I'm not sure how what you're in what your input would be on why that would affect that the crash rate I mean that's probably the biggest factor I would think of would be recession so like under unemployment probably resulted in less commuting now that's not to say COVID was kind of interesting I mean we definitely saw less than two so I think there's some correlation but the bounce back rate in 2021 seemed like it was high because some people were still working from home I think and they was I forget what the numbers are maybe 60% went back to commuting but so I wonder if that's a out-of-practice type situation. Vice-chair Chris if I may there was also issues almost I think this was a national trend was as people started returning to work and there had been this huge lull and traffic and crashes as people return to work the roads were wide open and so people were able to go faster and so we nationally the trend was that we saw more severe crashes from opening businesses in late 21 into 20 or late 20 into 21 so that might be part of the issue again we're speculating but this definitely shows that people were not crashing as much and not driving as much in during the recession years just because of the fact yeah no job I don't have a job typically the gas prices go up so it's more expensive to drive and all those different factors so people cut down their driving for a number of different reasons so that's why we see some of these trend lines the way we do and why you see such a sharp increase though it's it's one of the lower numbers on this table so still except for 2020 but that might be some of the factors I wanted to point it out because it was one of the few where I had some relational data I could kind of add into it or some eyes I guess so thank you well some things I included one table I included that's new on this was table 4.1 where I was trying to determine this is a question that comes up pretty frequently and even this isn't as detailed as it could be although I could I tried to like condense it into something of like a readable form for this report but um you know where our pedestrian and cyclist crash is happening like where are people most vulnerable on our roadways which parts of our roadways needs and need improvement so Main Street came out pretty high on this list that is on one hand counting like all of Maine I mean that's like Plateau to Parkridge Avenue but if you want to break it down in some like more granularity I that is possible I wrote down some of it I think Maine in Mountain View was the highest single intersection with like nine and the five-year period also downtown as I was defining from second to ninth although I think it might actually be to first second to ninth though but um and that was accounted for 25 so if you think of like that segment and that was the intersections and the midblocks not necessarily the midblock crosswalks in downtown Maine some of them were I know at least two were actually in the 200 block but um and that didn't did include ninth in Maine which has like six on its own but yeah and it's also most of these are the higher volume arterials we do in Mountain View Avenue as a collector it is a bit of a higher volume collector than some others that is like a straight you can go airport to Deerwood or all the way through so it does get I think maybe some volume or more volume than some other collectors but um yeah I don't unless there's any comments from the board okay comparison with other cities so I'm the data from this was referenced from CDOT has like publicly available like back sheets that are fatal crash statistics by city so pulling from those kind of using like a five-year average our rate per population is higher than some of our neighbor cities including higher than Fort Collins Boulder in Loveland we are still behind we still have rates lower than places like Commerce City Pueblo Lakewood and Grand Junction I tried to pick communities with at least some kind of a comparable population but it's um get a pretty widespread in Colorado yeah and um from this table you can at least I've been trying to like kind of work backwards okay well why does do certain communities have like much lower rates than we do and why is that it's like Centennial is the lowest one on this list I'm still you know looking at it from the high level I'm not 100% sure why lower speeds lower speeds but they do have some like wide you know like four or five lane arterial intersections that are not too different from ours it would seem so I wonder why I don't know it's very I've only done like a very like surface kind of reasoning of this so I guess stay tuned but I'm what strategies that maybe other communities see that we can potentially implement I would think looking at the list Loveland Arvada maybe Broomfield would have more similar characteristics than a Centennial because I would think Centennial being or I won't call it urban of course but suburban and so locked that it's gonna have on average I would think lower speeds in general just because of the the amount of traffic that they have I would think that's one thing we've speculated on is that there's a congestion level here especially in the city of Boulder whenever we compare to them they seem so much lower that there's a you know very much when they're high demand on their roadways there it's very congested and so the cars move very slowly so the severity of the crashes or the number of crashes is lower too so in some ways congestion is good we think but we need to we need to look into that war and make sure we have that dialed in a little better for y'all on that issue the comparison between Longmont and Boulder is the default speed limit in Boulder lower than it is in Longmont they did change it to 20 on local streets relatively recently Boulder has changed that they have a vision zero policy and so their action plan is enacted and going and so they did do some speed limit changes on a large number of streets but the enforcement issue is still the critical factor there so in my there's one street there's a couple streets that I have to use all the time when I travel to Boulder and it's there's the speeds haven't changed the speed limit has changed but the speeds have not changed so we need to look into that as we move to a vision zero policy is how productive is that how cost-effective is changing a sign versus really getting the speeds down we really do think it's more of that congestion piece that's helping oh yes one question do you know how this compares with the national average not the national but I do there's two other tables on here with yeah like other states and nationwide communities that again we're chosen well one based on proximity and then also just like population although really really probably what I should have done is population density and some of these is probably the more accurate measure because some of these you get like pre-rural we have a like a lot of rural highway sections on some especially in the nationwide categories so it might not be a very like great 1-1 to look from that to long line even if it's sure like the same population but I mean you can see I mean like nationwide there's definitely some areas of the country that probably have like much higher incidence of fatal crashes and then there's some that have much lower so it would be interesting to look into more I do know that fatals are generally on an upward trend like nationwide okay um the other question I had was is there any mechanism you guys would reach out to Centennial or Boulder or Nevada just ask them what they're doing if they have any novel ideas yeah I mean I ice oh yeah with Dr. Cog there is a Dr. Cog like Vision Zero group that where people will sometimes like share and collaborate ideas but um yeah but yeah but yeah I mean it's like definitely something like how are you keeping your rates like relatively low compared and it's again like I have some theories but it's nothing I've that's proven by any means so okay like for one one thing as I know some of these like Centennial's a pretty new community it was like incorporated I want to say early 2000s and it's like we've been around since the 1800s so we probably have some more like grid infrastructure especially in like the downtown area and a lot more just like four-way intersections that create more opportunities for like conflict but then at the same time that's not necessarily where we see the fatal crashes happen either so if I could just say I mean based on relation of population to fatalities Centennial, Arvada, Loveland must be doing something better in regards to that when our number population wise is close but our number is so much higher and if I look at the trend all the way across from 2017 to 2021 you know 2019 is an outlier but even still compared to those communities I think board member Hinderberger has a great idea of can we interface with traffic staff there and find out are they doing something yeah what you know is it education is it you know whatever it might be well also as we move into the vision zero realm that'll just be part of that discussion that'll be something we have to do and in order to kind of figure out yeah how to how to make these changes to get to our vision of zero I'll move on to section 6 so when ice it's something we've been tracking for a while it has gone it was significantly lower in 21 which isn't as I remember was a pretty mild winter we didn't didn't even really get snow until like very late in the year so that doesn't surprise me too much but again that's something that well we can't control the weather but we can't control like roadway treatments after and plowing and what a response time is to that so that is a way we can help maybe bring those numbers down if they need to in the future again these total crashes involving the younger and older demographics something we've been tracking for oil it's been a pretty dramatic change if you look at it from the past it used to be a very high the 18 or younger like teenage demographic used to be involved in a lot more crashes than they are now and it's evened out you know or now it's actually below sort of that 65 plus demo so it's just like that demographic change that's been happening and we think that's probably related to the different ideas of how you get your license these days I think anybody who has anybody in that 16 year old or been through that recently the 16 year old driver's license it's much more difficult to get now and you can't drive with you know your friends from 16 to 17 now and there's a bunch of rules until you turn 18 which weren't in place in the early 2000s so we think that that's part of this trend yeah and then figure 6.2 is kind is similar except it's supposed to be the at fault driver which traditionally was always like vehicle one in an accident although there's some gray area to that sometimes we can see they leveled out like quite a bit in terms of demographic so when it used to be a much higher of like the young like 18 and younger crowd and then figure 6.3 is distracted driving so it is that a blue line at the bottom so 207 which is lower than those like 350 346 337 numbers again I suspect there's challenges with reporting some of those things so it's not the easiest thing to maybe get a handle on but I'm especially for the sort of more minor rear ends that might happen Caroline I have a question I noticed on the bottom there on 6.3 in 2006 there was a dip in distracted driving and I noticed that same diff in figure 3.0 DUI and medical asleep fatigue crashes I wonder was there more censoring of that by the police departments do you think I'm thinking maybe that's something that could be verified yeah in 2006 shows up in both yes I probably couldn't tell you back then because I did not live in Colorado and certainly didn't work for the city at that time so I'm not 100% sure but I'm not sure if Phil has any insight how long have you worked in the city yeah longer than that unfortunately well fortunately but unfortunately I'm getting old but yeah I can't think of what happened in 2006 that was necessarily lead to that kind of dip I'm trying to think of again recessionary kind of things and I think that was mostly 2007 2008 so not sure what what's going on there it's very interesting though that you found that and pointed that out so looks like the DUI one maybe dipped in 2004 oh and then the DUI dipped in 2006 you're right in the medical dipped in 2004 so very interesting of it's so hard to like figure this out this is why this is gonna be so difficult to meet a vision zero goal because and as you'll see in the fatal crashes unfortunately you know we had we listed them but we just wanted to show that there's a lot of factors that go into all these different crashes and this is kind of what the data proves out is there's so many things that go on and we're trying to really address as many as we possibly can but there's only so much you can do with resources available so we're gonna have to put more effort into communication education enforcement engineering so all those different things that you hear about all the time are gonna have to get more resources to make this really follow the trends that we want to see so Phil because you mentioned engineering that's what I kind of care about is the design so I win when crashes happen I don't know if you had a chance to read the sustainable safety packet I gave you but one of the Dutch principles now is sending engineers out to every crash to try to innovate and come up with a creative solution instead of building the road as we always do but come up with different ideas I don't know if that's something we have the capacity to do that even but an idea well the things you're talking about is exactly why I'm here to it's kind of my wheelhouse of signals intersections and roadway signs and striping so one thing we have a lot of plans going for vision zero new transportation comprehensive plan and there are new technologies I'm looking at that we're very excited to bring to you all eventually hopefully early this year but looking at other countries other states and how they handle traffic is something I frequently do and try to find great solutions one of the biggest issues that comes to really users is having a predictable roadway because there's a lot of stuff we could put on the road but when you're a semi-old grandmother who just goes to the store to get groceries you know maybe once or twice a week she comes on this intersection and can't decipher it good example is the continuous flow intersections you start seeing popping up around engineering by the numbers they look great but sometimes you have to back it up with this is how we're improving safety and kind of more of a residential setting they're not as great because you get a lot more confused drivers who are going the wrong way roundabouts that aren't properly designed as a good example of that I'm sure everyone's seeing someone take the a left through a roundabout versus going right even though there's 20 signs that say go this way so it's something we all consider when putting things out in the roadway is can anyone go up to this intersection and be able to navigate it without too much pause and then one of the big things I'm a bit proud of is data backed engineering so in these projects that we're going to be implementing providing additional resources for I'm very big on having before and after studies showing that we can decrease crashes or severity crashes and then make sure we're getting good reporting so I'm also a big problem I'm working with our police department where it's a collaborative effort not just pointing fingers at its PD's problem you know talking about under reporting I do believe most officers report truth about the reports because if they do not truthfully put stuff that's on the report if they hand out a ticket that gets thrown out in court and prosecutors don't like that so a good way is to say we're missing this information can your officers provide additional are distracted driving how were they distracted driving and then continuously seeing what police officers see in the field of well they said they weren't but they were so I'm very big proponent of collaboration with all departments in the city and then backing that up with continuous data so answer a question yes we're looking at lots of different technology options and looking for budget-friendly so we do more areas at once but also looking at our highest need areas as well which I think is our next section as well and to mention roundabouts you know I'm a big fan of them I'm not a huge fan of how we how we build them here just because I visit in the crash report there is what one roundabout that's on a common yeah down a full or whatever and just yeah just looking at that is like well I think a car can actually just kind of zoom through instead of enforcing a slowdown yeah and that's part of the engineer correctly and providing the right solution in the right area I mean a lot with the roundabouts or any traffic calming measures it's all about deflection and a lot of those areas they'll you see a lot of neck downs where they just bring in the row and have a bull about the problem is the guy going straight just go straight no reason to stop I've tried out diverging diamonds we kind of go out and back in I've seen those work really great residential perception hasn't been totally great on those he's a little intrusive to the neighborhood but as far as speeds reduction it's significant speed reduction in areas so something that I think the easiest ones we can do right now are road diets I've seen about 20% Russian speeds on level roadways in residential areas so it's a great way to slow people down and it's cost effective so that's kind of solutions we're kind of looking for is what benefit we're getting and make sure we're being equitable across residential main street all the different sections of the city so I guess what one more points because the overall crash is 60% we're at intersections 40% signalized and again time-out roundabouts traditional four-way intersections at least for my research is 32 conflict points where a roundabout is 8 so I would just like to see you know us become Carmel Indiana but we'll find out yeah yeah yeah and you know there's always good options fortunately those do take considerable time and funds to construct but one thing we are looking at is how to make the intersection experience a little more predictable and also reducing stop and delays in the area so something we're really looking to this that's the other advantages roundabouts reduce emissions by 30% mm-hmm as well yep you're not stopping going yep exactly yeah so looking ways to improve and so always trying to think of there's another solution besides a cookie cutter solution all right cool Kyle I think I heard you say that you've seen a 20% reduction in crashes related to road diets states 20% reduction in speed and you attribute that to just the psychological effect of having a narrower traveling yes so generally especially residential is usually the best example of this because you have a predictable type of car that goes through there alive is how comfortable is it for a person to just drive down the roadway I know probably everyone's been guilty of it long day at work you're coming home just zoned out and you realize you're going 45 coming up Main Street when it goes down to 35 and you don't realize it and that's a lot of what the road diet radar signs do help with is keeping the honest people honest and that helps target as far as enforcement goes of who are the people that aren't gonna be affected by those measures so I know top my head at three different streets this last year that we put road diets on my last city we dropped the 85th percentile in speed from 32 miles per hour down to 26 and that is just by road diet we just lanes down to 10 feet and provided an 8-foot parking lane on each side for for homes so some in again when we look at what we're putting out in the roadways I like to back up by data because then we can say that it is working do we need to do more do we need are we doing too much and how are we affecting traffic in surrounding areas well so not increasing cut-through traffic to different areas thanks Kyle I want to go back to distracted driving for a moment does Longmont PD ever check mobile phone records to try to determine whether a driver was using a mobile phone at the time of a crash you know I watch a lot of crime shows on TV and they're always contacting the mobile phone providers to get information so I guess I couldn't totally answer for them I know for I know like for something like a fatal they do a pretty in-depth like investigation as you go down that scale I'm not just sure how much should they investigate that once you get down to like the property damage only I I'm not sure I don't think they're trying to like lie to us or anything but um yeah that's kind of my answer and maybe that's something I can reach out to PD and see if also there's such you also like their situations where they don't have a lot of information to go on especially for like a single vehicle that like runs off the road hits a utility pole or something like that like that person might leave the scene and they might just be going kind of on like a witness account so those situations pop up as well quick question do we track in this hit-and-run do we track hit-and-run yes we can't we do have that information yes it's not on here okay like as in like a gross number of like hit-and-runs but yeah I would just be curious because that seems to me would be where you're not going to get obviously the information as to because the hit-and-run driver does something and they leave we don't know what the cause of the action was but I'd be curious to find out what the overall gross numbers are in terms of hit-and-run as it relates to the safety in the city yeah and I think you go back I mean there's like bicyclists that leave the scene as well sometimes so it's like sometimes you're not even getting like a full account from them in the police report but okay so this is like section sevens the high crash locations so this is a lot of different tables it's kind of the same format that's been on previous reports the table A and B are added this is a bit of a late addition but um there's like a bolded line on each of those so everything above that is something that was previously a high crash intersection or location but has dropped off and then below that are new locations that have come on to the lists so I guess some notable ones to kind of point out here and they're not in I guess they're not in any particular order I was probably going from like class 1a 1b 1c so like the numbers in any of the columns aren't necessarily in any kind of order but so 3rd and main went off the list because we saw that go down from 65 total crashes to 54 and you can kind of look some of these it might be kind of like for something like airport and clover basin actually and we changed that to protected left turn only operation so that could be a reason why that those numbers have dropped so some of them I have like a pretty clear explanation some of them I probably have to research it more to see why or what categories of crashes went down but um and then some of it was also the ADT numbers influence how these are ranked so there's like the average daily traffic sorry explain my acronyms which I I kind of question how much that even has like bearing on these because it's kind of an old predictive methodology we've been using for a while but then there's also the argument to be made that you just go by crashes and that's it either way that's where you see some of like the like 3rd and Martin at the bottom there it actually went down but it went up so that's like some ADT like methodology getting moved to like a different class so I figured I'd be honest about it that sometimes the methodology does work out sort of strangely or not how you'd expect but I think most of a lot of these you can see like at least in the top rows on table A and B you can see like a reduction happening so and it also is weighted sorry but it is weighted as well so if it previously had a lot of like serious injuries and those have like kind of dropped off then that can also change its ranking even if it's just one but that's weighted heavily then I can move it down is there any idea why 3rd Avenue is populated the below the bold line which are the the higher crash index numbers do you have any maybe thoughts on why that kind of shows up so you're like 3rd and Lashley and 3rd and Martin as well as 3rd and Bowen yes the 3rd and Lashley and 3rd and Martin I think was a case so I ended up adjusting some of the ADTs down well because on some of them I actually overestimating it so I was trying to be a little bit more accurate so that's part of it like it goes to so it might have been in the higher class with like highway with Kim Pratt and Maine so it looked pretty low compared to those but then in like the more class wouldn't be ranked higher right but there's three 3rd Avenue instances in these 10 so that's 30% so is there a trend with 3rd Avenue that you hadn't noticed prior and or we're noticing now that's causing there to be a higher rate of conflict yeah I mean like 3rd and Lashley and 3rd and Martin are both very like similar close together that same section 3rd and Bowen's more it is on the collector section so I I would think of those a little differently but like yeah 3rd and Lashley 3rd and Martin yeah I mean it's like we actually had a there was actually a crash at 3rd and Lashley recently but I think it was pretty well and also I think you've seen out there that we've done some projects on the east portion of that 3rd Avenue so you'll see that we did some median treatments as well as some more of that complete streets road diet that Kyle was mentioning earlier so we currently now have what we just put out this year those bicycle lanes buffered bicycle lanes we've narrowed the lanes of traffic as well we've lowered the speed limit so there's been a bunch of different things that have happened in the last I would say two or three years that will hopefully change these trends right so when you see them pop onto the list in 2021 we're hoping that what we've done in the last year and the last two years if we'll bring those back down below but the 3rd and Bowen is isn't anomaly of some sort and we need to figure out kind of what's going on there as far with what type of crashes and and why they're going up for the 3rd and Bowen my understanding 3rd is going to be repaved and re looked at in a different way so that probably help but then do we get to see a little bit of that design before anything that's the idea that's the idea cool bring it out to the public and make sure there's buy-in for those different designs and the table bees like them was just with the segments instead of the intersections as well oops real quick Jim saying that February he's planning to come out to the public meeting for yet and actually in the segments and that call your street 17th to 23rd like that's pretty high like 21 for a collector segment so that's something that like kind of stood out to me as something to look at because I mean that's like a parking lane bike lane two-through lanes each direction kind of segment so also main in 23rd it was kind of like already approaching that like 1.0 threshold before but it's like now jumped into like the high crash segments but the rest of these are a lot of tables with a lot of information going on I will say like highway 119 in Main Street and spin the high crash intersection for years very high volume at least as part of it I have I did break down at least the top three because I know I've been asked this before into in my notes here into like what types are these and it's like 119 in main like 159 of those are rear ends but 24 are like front to side so like right angle broad sides 21 are actually same direction side swipes and then 19 are approach turn or like the left turn type crushes and for highway 66 in main we have 63 rear ends 32 approach turn left turn type crashes which we did change that to protected only left turn operation now it's like it all blurs I don't remember exactly which year that was but I'm not will hopefully bring that down over time 16 front to side 10 that just say curb which usually means like sort of either running over the channelizing islands or running off the side of the road somehow and then same again the nine were the same direction side swipes and 17th and main 75 of those were rear ends 27 were the approach turn left turn types and then 24 were the front to side with 18 the same direction side swipes so with those it's important context because rear ends tend to happen at signals in fact when you signalize an intersection your number of your ends might actually increase because you're introducing a stop that perhaps wasn't there before but when we have the left turn and front to side like the broad sides there's potentially some changes in left turn phasing and signal operation that can be made to try to alleviate that so and I can like send these numbers today now I just like rattled off a lot of like numbers but if anyone's interested I have files available so yeah just looking through a lot of these intersections are pretty similar to what they have been before mountain Alpine Street and Mountain View Avenue is still on the class 1b section but a lot of those characters actually happened before it was signalized except it didn't get signalized till 2020 unless anyone has any like specific questions about any of these I was not going to go through all those we'd be here I've already taken up a lot of time but and then section 8 was new to what we've done in previous years this was like all the fatal crashes with a location and at least like some level of detail of description of what happened it's a question that we get a lot like especially in the context of considering vision zero I think it's good information to have like I said I haven't done this in quite this way before so and I realize sometimes it's helpful to have like a visual but that would have made this quite long but hopefully I was effective in explaining what was happening without using too many personally identifying details and I think some of the takeaway of this for me at least for me was um yeah there's a lot going on and some of these fatal crashes that happen with varying degrees of like engineering influence you can have over that and some of them just don't have like even like the actual reports don't have a ton of detail to get a lot of insight into what might have been happening and I mean like the locations are pretty as like talking about this before there's not necessarily one location where it's you know highway 66 in Maine there's been you know three plus fadals that I'll have to do with the eastbound left turn or something very like get concrete then you can go out and make that you know change the timing on the eastbound left turn a lot of them are at various different places and it's not always so consistent but it's something I've read a lot into so I don't know if anyone had any questions about any of these but I think also we as staff would like to hear your suggestions on what you'd like to see in the report we've tried to provide as much as we can in this but if there's any suggestions on how we can improve this report in the future that would be wonderful too but otherwise that's all we have from staff on the crash data report yeah thank you for the report I'd like to know more about how you guys are using it is it reprioritizing our dollars or our efforts or is it showing new problem areas that we didn't know we had how it's a great job putting together this report how are we using it is my question well I think when we do our tip report when we come to you with the dollars we're going after for federal product for federal grant dollars you'll see that a lot of these intersections are on that have something to do with it maybe ancillarily ancillarily but like 66 in Maine that's part of a broader project that we're doing on state highway 66 for safety County line road we're doing a project there and you saw some crashes on County line road so when we get this data we do use it as far as which which projects are we going to go after in the future and where should we go after those dollars do we come up with them internally do we go out and use this data to justify some of the dollars that we need to get from grants yeah I think the other part was that maybe I you know it could just be used to affirm where we already knew we were and where we're going with things so if that's the case that's great that means we have some some good direction and everything going on but I'm yeah thank you so just to follow up with additional information we we basically it's data so we use it to help us generate where we can do improvements in some cases it will be larger scale capital improvements and the example I will use on that is is the what you don't see in this report is the Pike Road Main Street intersection which we had identified for a number of years as one of the top ten intersections so when as Pike Road came to be a project that we were going to put on multimodal improvements on we also looked at Main Street and what we could do for the traffic signal in conjunction with the CDOT improvements unfortunately some of these projects for the capital take years to develop one of the other items we we utilize is every year we budget in our operating budget a certain amount of dollars for safety improvements so we'll do we'll look at some of these intersections we may do small scale signal improvements such as changing some of the timings or adding protected movements so that if we identify that there's a number of of left turn crashes we'll go out and we we did it recently a few years ago on airport road where we saw some incidents of kids getting either sideswiped or or actually hit early in the mornings because of the the way the signal was configured for the flashing yellow we took that out and added in a protected left so that vehicles who are making that left left going southbound actually had to stop wait for the signal to go green in conjunction with the the the walk movements so we will we'll constantly use this data to kind of craft the next few years of small-scale safety improvements as well as larger scale capital projects again thank thank you staff for that report a lot a lot of information here we can obviously talk about it all all evening i'm sure one question i had about this in terms of this information getting disseminated to the public what efforts could be taken on the city on behalf of education and i just thought about things like you know the idea of the time of day and letting people know of course driving hey time of dates you know that from three to four we have as high of a rate of accidents as we do from five to six or the the month the fact that october has a higher rate of accidents in december would education and any sort of effect be something that's going to help us maybe bring these numbers down yeah i mean i there's definitely more we could be doing on like getting this information out there on our especially on our website the actual actually um this report wasn't even really easily available it is the 20 so the 2016 2020 report is actually on our website now but even that is maybe not as like advertised as it could be but um yeah i think that's like definitely a good suggestion to like try to increase some of the findings from this report and get that out to the public and one thing i actually did not mention both actually a pretty big determination in the high crash intersection list was um so before um so when we do when we have our database we exclusively get that information from long want pd but um there are areas in the city where long want pd does not necessarily do all um like post accident like reporting so what i did this time was i actually dug through like the c dot um spreadsheets and um found that's why highway 66 and pace is now on the high crash list because it really should have been probably for a while but it was being very undercounted because colorado state patrol usually handles a lot at 66 is probably like the weakest point where essentially out east where you can get a lot of colorado state patrol reporting that doesn't necessarily come through us directly and even then it's um a little flawed because you're kind of relying on the state it's like master spreadsheet that doesn't get updated very often so that was only current through even through like 2020 so like they don't have the 2021 edition up yet but i wanted to throw that in so hey thanks again for all this information it's it's a lot of data to um turn through um i'm wondering do you feel that you have enough data here or the the type of data is adequate to um begin working on um vision zero i mean does it give you enough information to make progress in that regard i think it sends us on a track i mean it's like you said the data is out there there's a lot of data as you can tell caroline did an amazing job of putting this all together in a fairly tight time frame too because we had some issues with um how the data was developed and and provided to us so there's been a lot of screening of this data to make sure it's it makes sense for what we're trying to do but for vision zero this is the good starting point i think what we do is we take this and exactly what was said on the board is assimilated into something that's more digestible maybe by the public and something that we can use to educate the public the different different elements of um you know i'm guessing October November December or higher crash rates because people are just starting to figure out oh yeah i now have to figure out how to drive on snow again or rain or you know and it's it's getting into those factors of people adapting and then you see in january February march people have figured it out by then but there might be a bunch of different factors to that it's just a matter of getting that word out and trying to figure out how we get that information out to the public well let let me just say um caroline you did a great job i found it was very readable for as much data as there was and um easy to understand what you were presenting so and thank you for walking us through that it was very helpful yes uh i also appreciate the information you've provided and i spent some time looking at the fatal crash data in the report and uh specifically i compared the information on figure 1.0 with the data on table 6.2 and the crash reports in section eight and i found what appeared to be discrepancies in the number of fatalities and i wonder if um if i'm not understanding something or if there could be some discrepancies in the report and for the years 2017 2018 and 2020 the the the numbers of um what i assumed were fatalities and now i think i understand were crashes with fatalities don't seem to match um from from figure to table to text description of the events so for example uh 2017 figure 1.0 says that there were eight crashes with fatalities is that correct i think i know the answer to this but yes and table 6.2 reports it as six so i think what i did so if you look at the back and let me go on just one more thing okay and when i went and looked at all the reports in section eight i came up with 11 fatalities and i know that one of those had two dead people so you would think of that as 10 fatal crashes but there's still a big difference you know six eight ten which is the the correct number of fatal crashes in 2017 and i asked that because my concern is that if the fatality numbers in table 6.0 are inaccurate then the crash rate comparisons in table 6.1 and table 6.2 are also inaccurate so the ones so in section eight if it's highlighted in red yeah that was from colorado state patrol okay and you know that they reported a fatality except there's there's one place where so that in go ahead so in so that is like so it's six in the table this is where are you saying that if longman pd didn't investigate and file the report it doesn't count as a fatal crash it might not have been it might have been a mistake that it wasn't added in to one of the tables but it's certainly because it's not because it's not in our date quite frankly it's not in our database you have to remember that like extra on top but it's i was trying to be as honest as possible include everything i can find so any other response i i i think the the data you're seeing from i want to i want to try to answer for caroline you can tell me if i'm wrong the the chart that was section one figure 1.0 i think what we what we've done is that was what we had recorded in past years so in the the spreadsheet at the back that was data we recently added this year okay so we probably didn't update the old data from the the chart we probably just carried the chart over from previous years so we would have to update that uh when we added in this year when we added in those those accidents in red we had never done that before previously um did that explain that yeah that's probably the the this was the first year we included data from outside of the long mon pd that's what the discrepancy is so we'd have to update the go back and update the charts for the last five years all right well would you be willing to consider the report that we have tonight as a draft and you have staff take another look at it and uh run it through your course insurance protocols certainly we can update that data okay great another question i see that much of the information in section seven as you've explained this michael is categorized by average daily traffic volumes would it be possible to evaluate crash data and i guess this would mostly apply to stretches of road in between intersections by average traffic speed rather than average uh daily traffic volumes it seems that that might be useful information as longmont proceeds with uh vision zero do you have the data about for what average speeds are and so for the average speed just on say like main to street third to fourth avenue yet we do have some counts like that yes that do give us an average speed um or were you asking about the average like speeds like on the report or just like the okay what i'm trying to get at is um can we use the data to come up with some relationships between traffic speed and the types of crashes that involve bodily injury and death and maybe use that as as input to the vision zero process because i'm not sure that average daily traffic volumes really helps you much with vision zero as you said phil i mean if the traffic volumes result in congestion then you'd have fewer crashes just because the roadway is congested and no one can travel at a high speed so i'm trying to find out the relationship between average vehicle speed and crashes so for this report the answer would be we really don't have enough of that data but i think as as as we get into a vision zero program there will be a component of that where you collect a lot more data um and i would the the PD is currently looking at um they they just picked up some equipment within the last few weeks that we funded through the street fund for them to to start collecting speed data throughout the city they got several portable machines where they're going to put them up so they can identify where people are speeding they're going to share that data with us and then we can start building a database of where where people are speeding and start collecting those speeds at various times of day but as part of vision zero you will see more of that data collection we can certainly add that into future reports as we collect it but that would be a factor speed is usually something they always look at in police reports although we don't record it here because it's usually as for the ADT it is an estimated number but certainly i think speed is it will be a big factor in a lot of accidents and it will be a component of vision zero in that lowering speeds is one of their their primary directives in the vision zero kind of overall program so as we move into that there will be a component of collecting that data yes thanks jim as i travel around longmont sometimes i see these what look like little white trailers at the side of the road with a digital display and the display that i see as a motorist is you know what my speed is and whether i should slow down or not but are those pieces of equipment also recording the speeds of all the vehicles that pass by that equipment is not it's not so there's a trailer it only be this new equipment it's the newer equipment that that we they're actually portable they're just like our our if you look up on kimbark those radar signs we have that show the speed limit they're very similar to that they're portable and they're a newer model that records the speed of data it'll do traffic counts as well then they're uploaded to the cloud and then we have we'll have that data every time they they install one or put one out and leave them out there they're looking at when they when the what pd is found is they get reports of from various residents of people speeding on this road but for them to make the best use of their personnel they want to know when those people are speeding so that they can use their their their personnel more effectively if they know that it's done at certain times of day they'll be able to do that in the meantime we'll we'll record that speed and then the the counts and data so we'll have more accurate information so if it's successful we'll buy a few more next year yeah so we'll see like it would be very yeah they just picked them up this year so we had some funds at the end of the budget year so we helped them buy them so we'll see what it looks like and then there's a number of of tools out there I think we're picking up we're picking up some new new counter systems as opposed to the tubes you put down on the road we're going with a more of a using radar when we do traffic counts traditionally you have like these rubber tubes that go across the road that count cars there's radar systems out there we're going to start using that are less expensive and safer for our our traffic tech to put out we've got for doing pedestrian counts we've got actually portable video cameras we put on a pole and then they record data and then we fast forward it while we count pedestrians at intersections so there's a lot of technology out there and and as we we move into kind of vision zero and better data collection we'll you'll see we'll probably have to increase our our traffic staff and those are proposals that'll be defined as we we get into the action plan through the course of next year great thanks my next question is really for any and all of you to respond to and I will be asking you to speculate so in your professional opinion what effect on fatal and serious injury crashes would in across the board five mile per hour speed limit reduction in long mod have and how about a 10 mile per hour reduction well I would well interesting if you just so just changing a speed limit with doing no other roadway like no other roadway changes like just changing the sign I don't know how effective that would be because people tend to sort of drive what they feel is right for a particular you know roadway section so I don't know that would maybe just be like in artificial like you post it lower but you don't change anything else so are people going to like actually behave any differently probably maybe not long term without like some enforcement also with I guess with um so in all these crash reports too they have usually a driver's estimated speed listed on them but um if you try to go by it gets complicated I've tried to look at like the speed differential between them or like the highest speed because sometimes you're really looking at the speed of the vehicle that's not at fault because if someone's turning left and is turning left like at fault then I mean they're not turning left at like 80 miles an hour so you're really looking at the second vehicle that's maybe going the speed limit that's 45 so just some insight into that thank you minority's transportation planner I think the the short answer is probably not much I had a conversation with one of city boulders transportation planners and we had the opportunity to discuss their vision zero program where they lowered the speed limit 20 miles per hour in their on their local streets and what he indicated to me is that they they actually didn't really see any reduction in speeds and that while the the lowered speed limit is enforceable the police department isn't actually enforcing the lower speed limit and so what he's indicated to me is that it really hasn't resulted in a behavior change what it has done is it has stimulated a conversation on speeding and the need to to bring down speeds by other means other than lowering the speed limit but but I had Caroline's job when I was here many years ago my first job here and the traffic engineer at that time was very reluctant to lower speed limits just to try to bring down speeds because he was fairly convinced that it wouldn't work and and the evidence is is is fairly compelling that that's that's the case yeah like like ben said signs are just signs and the big you're you're not wrong lowering the speed means people are going over the speed limit you're correcting that manner the problem is is they're still doing the thing they're not supposed to be doing and it's the same thing I have a toddler at home and he's staring at something like a chair he wants to climb up up and I'm like no looks at me says I'm gonna try it so a lot of it it's maybe kind of a demean analogy but drivers like that or like toddlers you got to make them think it was their idea to go that speed limit to do that certain speed because if everyone followed every law we had it wasn't distracted we'd hardly have any crashes the reason why crashes do happen is people are going too fast they're too aggressive and they sometimes just don't care so a lot of it is getting people to do what they want without them realizing that they're doing it so lowering the speed limit really won't make the roadway safer it's more a combination of putting out non-basin measures more psychoscoma measures like road diets signs maybe more enforcement or even just figuring out who and why they're speeding because a lot of things you'll see it's the same person so is it a widespread issue or is it one person driving down the road that everyone sees who thinks it's just a repeating issue so my opinion no changing the speed limit doesn't really change the speed limit it's changing driver behavior it's going to change the speed limit so okay I'll jump in so so going back to your your question to to lower the speed limit 20 miles per hour universally throughout the city I don't think has been indicated in in our residential streets I don't that's not where you're seeing the major accidents and fatalities it's on our materials and collectors so I would think lowering the speed limit with as Kyle indicated with some other improvements will work to change behavior and could make a difference there are some areas an example of night that's 45 miles per hour I think if you lowered the speed limit five to ten miles per hour in that roadway might improve it so I think it's something that that as part of vision zero we would have to look at on on our our major arterials the example one of the examples of lower speed limits doesn't always help with fatalities is one of the fatalities of zone main street where it was in a 25 mile per hour speed limit so it isn't always speed that's the problem it's the it's the behavior of a driver who was it was it was a DUI so I think you know universally lowering the speed limit will not be effective overall throughout the city but I think in case by case basis we have to look at that and that's where we'll see success did you say that a drunk driver traveling 25 miles per hour was in a 25 mile per hour zone so whether it does matter what the speed limit where you set the speed limit at okay okay that's just an example of that's just one example got it all right thank you to all of you that's it for my comments and questions on the crash report I got one more well I think to reiterate is you know I agree vision zero is all about speed control and separation so once speeds go higher then you separate your pedestrians and your bikes off the the main road and when I'm looking at the map of the what bikes and peds do we have any data of what was peds versus bikes in terms of crashes I'm looking at the what principal arterial roads bikes and peds yeah so like you're asking whether you can break that down into just bikes yeah you can and that's we have I have it it's just not presented that way I can I did like write this down because I realized it wasn't on there but for 2021 I saw like 36 separate bicycle crashes and then 31 separate pedestrian crashes and then do we keep data of like how those happen potentially so like yes trying to cross the road and yes we do yeah okay yeah and actually a lot of what I've seen especially with bikes is they don't bikes act like pedestrians because they're like on the sidewalk and some of these are like conflicts uh yeah because bikes obviously go faster than a pedestrian so even if someone might think they're clear like pulling out of the driveway they maybe don't see the bike that's coming faster like downhill so it's yeah like bikes mostly like a lot of them are like crossing and like the pedestrian crosswalks I would say most of these are do more so to that than like bikes acting like cars and like using a bike continuous like bike lane on the roadway is definitely like a pattern I'm seeing but then uh is there a trend of bikes if a crash is on the roadway um because at least according to cdc it's 64 of depth is on on the road and 27 is that an intersection for a bicyclist so and that's where I want to tie into that vision zero of separation would be key now we don't have many deaths luckily but um but yeah just an idea yeah we don't we have that can be broken down okay yeah I have more like detail than necessarily what's on there but um sometimes it's like trying to present it in a way that makes sense but um yeah there's eight so I there's a lot of and they're broken down by like signalized intersections unsignalized and then like the mid blocks okay so that's something I can develop or present if anyone's interested in it but I'm curious okay that's all I think we can move on however I think I want to reiterate what board member McInerney asked for that we treat this as a draft and some of the changes that are made we just get a chance to take a look at that and maybe the pad bike separation data would be good to also have as part of the the I won't call correction the addition or the change yes thank the we want to thank the board very much for all your input because this does help us kind of craft the draft as it were so we'll work on that thank you the next item we had for you if you're ready and willing and able to go on is the action item of the transportation advisory board annual report we've also attached to that the proposed work program for 2023 that's just for your information at this point we'll actually want you to take a look at that and we'll talk about that in your January meeting that and try to finalize that draft proposed or that proposed work plan then but at this point in time we do need you to review the different items that we've done in 2022 we did include the crash report data knowing that that was coming so we did want to put that on there this is something we do every typically every December or January but we thought we'd have some time today to do this quickly and it's pretty straightforward it is the idea that in 2022 we held those nine regular meetings including the one today the first four meetings of the year were conducted in a virtual format that was because of COVID basically we knew that and five meetings luckily we were able to start meeting in person that was wonderful when we could finally get together and here we are today so you'll see the activities listed here we we did a resilience in frame project update the sugar factory and steam update transportation issues in the state legislature so we brought those to you we'll bring those to you again a lot of this will we'll come back again next year but that's one for sure that will come back that's just an annual one the update on transportation improvement pro project proposals this year was quite full of that with four different calls for projects so hopefully next year you won't see much more of that but we will keep you updated on what's going on with our projects through the CIP we updated the TAB bylaws with language on virtual meetings and notifications that won't come before you again so that's pretty much done there subcommittee to interview new TAB applicants that's going to be an annual thing that happens every I think we'll probably say may is we'll have to do that every May Boulder County report and update on projects associated with the 119 BRT project that's going to be something that's probably going to go on for the next two years at least next year so you'll get more information on about that Boulder County update on mobility and access for all ages that's a plan that was adopted this year so that should be done Boulder County update on 287 BRT that's something that's going to be ongoing as well so you'll hear more about that coming up we always do the capital improvement program so you'll see that next year we always like to that's a good one that you guys there's lots of interaction to talk about how our projects are doing and then hopefully I'll be able to come back and reference this crash report when we talk about that how the projects are interrelated to the things we're trying to do for safety review and comment on public works natural resources operational budget I think next year it'll be just public works correct yes we've natural resources in a different group starting in a couple weeks on January 1st work plan and annual report that's what we're doing today and next month annual board elections of new chair and vice chair we were unfortunately had to do that today because we've lost a member who and we appreciate a board member Chris stepping up to fill that fill that role so thank you very much RTD update that's another fun one that we do every year we'll invite them back usually March and April time period for that one the proposed cip is really where you guys get to say a lot of kind of what you know you look at our projects and see what's what's coming from our public works group and how you can have some input into what projects move forward 287 bus rapid transit that's kind of a carryover from what we just talked about so need to remove that one is we just had two different presentations last year on that or this year on that and so one was more of the first round and this is this was more of the phase two piece that we talked about so that just lets you know that you guys did a lot of work with that this year and then of course the vision zero presentation that was fairly recent the flex bus update that was last month as well and then tonight's a high crash location summary so in draft form we'll work on that to get more information on that as well but you probably won't see that again but we'll update it and put it out there and make sure you guys have links to it on the on the web when it comes available so with that we're requesting that the board review discuss and approve the 2022 annual report so we can send it up to your city council and make sure they know all the work you've done this year thank you very much do we want to have any comments on this or should we move to a vote on moving this forward do we need to do that just because this is what meeting four for me uh question on uh because obviously we have a council member here uh most often um how do how does anything that we say also goes to planning and zoning just curiosity yeah in the um in the bylaws this board is really meant to report directly to city council you can certainly make that recommendation we can we can take it up but it's uh something not typically done all right unless the planning and zoning commission asks for tab to look at something specific that they can't answer all right it just says recommendations to city council as well as to the planning and zoning commission so i was just curious yeah i haven't seen that too often what we sometimes have done in the past and this doesn't happen as much anymore as we used to have annexations come through to tab all the time um but it just got to the point of um the tab considered it more of minutia and you know access points onto roads and uh it was very general and so uh we either it was either too little or we had too much that we brought to this board that couldn't be resolved at the board level so it would there's a few times where we had annexations were like a walmart where we had all the information all the parking and everything and we spent two hours easily on that so that's the kind of issues that we got into with the annexations and there really haven't been any annexations that were very transportation specific that we've seen yet so those were the ones we'd bring to you typically and if those come back through we will certainly bring them to you as the transportation issues come up and then you would make the recommendation to be easy first on those and then up to council okay thank you if there are no further comments i move that we approve the 2022 transportation advisory board annual report i second all those in favor say hi hi thank you very much for your time on that we appreciate it we'll move that on to council okay um i'll start on this side with um board comments on tonight anything else that we want to be brought up my mistake next action item is the 2023 proposed tab work plan and schedule we just attached that as part of the last agenda item so what we'd like to do is that's our draft work plan for 2023 in january we'd love to come well we'll come back to you regardless and we'll talk about um any changes that you might have to that that you might want to see in that work plan but this is just to get it in front of you a month prior so it gives you plenty of time to hopefully get over get through those different items and make sure we're covering everything that you want to talk about in 2023 okay then i'll then start again with the comments from the board starting at the end it was a very interesting conversation tonight so um again thank you for the very in-depth lot of data presentation um i i do think the crash report will you know eventually with vision zero we'll get even more data and then hopefully we can really focus on the the physics of roads and and like we said signs don't really help so um so i'm looking forward to continuing that discussion so thank you uh i'd like to reiterate thank you um for the crash report a lot of work went into it and that that is clear um uh yeah just thank you if this is going to be a um a draft report then um there are some editing or proofing issues with it that i'm happy to discuss after the meeting if you want but um that's it thank you very much i also appreciate the opportunity to have had a discussion about the crash report and i look forward to um coordinating crash information with vision zero planning in the future um regarding the 2023 work plan and schedule i'll give you a hint of what i'll be saying in january of the only uh the only place i see vision zero on that sheet is under dr cog so i'll be looking for some city of longmont vision zero action items on our schedule for next year that's it for me i want to say to our two newest board members how much i appreciate the inputs you've had um really good questions um board member uh woodland and hinterberg um and um to board member laner and mackernarney thanks for um beginning a rousing discussion with the staff about this this crash report i greatly appreciate the effort that's put into the safety in our town and all the the great work that you do for the city of longmont and um thank you all i would uh i agree with um board member mackernarney i think we need to maybe discuss uh before january ninth as a board even via email how we can better assist with vision zero so just an idea all right thanks again and again um excuse me to reiterate the um rest of the comments thank you i know this was a comprehensive report a lot of effort was put into this so we really do appreciate that um in in regards to that my i guess my only comment is and somebody much smarter than me said this and you might know this gentleman larry haas c dot always used to joke that you know traffic engineering is a rational study of irrational behavior and so in many cases lowering a speed limit isn't necessarily going to regulate irrational behavior so i know the work that you do is is very important and i agree with um the comments regarding vision zero i think that's something that we're we're invested in as a board that we definitely want to be involved with um for 2023 and i'll stop here and let council member yarbrough uh offer any comments that she has thank you um just want to say ditto you know what everyone else had so much work so much great work thank you for all this information is needed um and um i just love representing the city along when i go to these conferences i've only been to two but it's amazing how much work you all have already done for our city and even the board and to to say how progressive we are um and um to see other cities that's even larger than us really don't have a plan or put anything in place um so i'm definitely honored and grateful to be representing the city along my and you all so and thank you for the city uh the staff for all the things that you do and all the hard work and the data you put together for us and i thank the board for um making sure that the details are transparent so thank you great um can i get a motion to adjourn our meeting sure i will we'll move to adjourn do you have a second second it all those in favor say aye all right hi thank you