 Okay, welcome everybody. Good afternoon. My name is Sarah Olson and welcome to the Australian National Data Service of Data Citation and DOIs Back to Basics workshop. We're lucky enough to have two experienced presenters today talking about data citation and DOIs. The first presenter is Jerry Ryder. Jerry is going to introduce data citation and the role of DOIs in data citation and then to Liz Woods from ANDS who will be giving an overview of the ANDS site my data service which is our online service by the ANDS website to attach or assign DOIs to your research data. So Liz will explain how this works and how you can do this if your institution has the capacity for DOI printing. Liz will also be able to answer any technical questions that you might have about this process. So welcome to our presenters and all our participants of course and we'll get started with Jerry. Hi everybody thank you for coming along today and it's great to see so much interest in data citation that's a topic close to my heart. What I'll be covering today and what I hope will be a relatively short session I'd like to allow plenty of time for questions after both Liz and I have spoken but we'll start with looking at what is data citation, what is a DOI and the relationship between DOIs and data citation and then a quick look at why we care about data citation. Not everyone in the audience may be familiar with ANDS so just briefly ANDS is a Commonwealth funded initiative which has been established to enable what we call the four transformations of data from unmanaged to managed, disconnected to connected, invisible to findable and single use to reusable and we work across the publicly funded research and data sector at Australia. You can find out more about ANDS on the ANDS website. Today we are talking about data citation and DOIs. You might like at some point to visit the ANDS website to download this LA4 poster. It actually neatly summarises a number of the concepts that we'll be covering today but it also does provide some broader context to the topic of data citation some of which we won't be able to get to in this sort of back to basics session today but it's a nice neat resource that you might find useful. So let's start by looking at what data citation is. Well quite simply data citation is the practice of providing a reference to data in the same way that researchers routinely provide a reference to other outputs in their papers such as journal articles, reports and conference papers and this is done for the same purpose for data as it is for other scholarly outputs that's to acknowledge the use of materials or resources and to provide enough information to enable others to verify and access the resource. And in this example where I've just blown up the actual citation you can see that a data set has been formally cited in the reference section of this journal article and you can see that the structure of it is probably fairly similar to other types of references. So just stepping back a little bit it's probably fair to say that within the scholarly community it has been and to some extent continues to be common practice for research data to be shared informally between colleagues until relatively recently there were few mechanisms for actually publishing research data to make it more broadly available mostly it was stored on local servers or perhaps a USB stick in the bottom drawer so it's probably not surprising that there wasn't a real concept of formal data citation. However now there are a growing number of mechanisms for publishing data and on the screen now you can see just a few examples and these have really evolved to support global data driven research but have also served to raise the profile of research data as the first class research output rather than as a by-product of research. When research is written up in papers it's been common practice for data sources to be included in the acknowledgments of a paper or referred to in the methods section but this is now changing actually quite rapidly. Like other types of scholarly outputs there needs to be a standardized way of referencing data and there are with standards now emerging and we know that publishers are looking at how data citation can be incorporated into their instructions for authors and this slide is really just to intend it I guess to show perhaps the evolution of data citation where previously it's been important really just for perhaps the owner of the data to know where their data is and what it is whereby these sort of brief descriptions if you call them that but perhaps good enough whereas now where we're talking more formal citation and sharing what we need to see is something that's more useful to allow for the discovery of data and the access to data and my apologies to Pat and Ross who I'm sure have never done anything like on the left hand side of the screen. So here we see the same data set professionally published through the Griffith University Research Hub and you can see that there's a nice clear statement data citation statement and while it's covered down here I think on your where you can see the blue circle where it's covered in the actual record for this particular data set I've just blown up the actual citation so that you can see it in a bit more detail. So it's been as I said professionally published with a very clear statement of attribution that can be used in a reference list like we saw previously. Here's the same citation just blown up a little bit more so you can see it in a bit more detail again very similar format to what we saw in that first slide where the data set was referenced in the paper but what I've sort of also wanted to have a look at here is this DOI that's appended to the end of the citation. So the DOI is a digital object identifier and we'll have a look at these in a bit more detail shortly but I guess what I wanted to introduce here is the clarification that while DOIs are considered best practice for data citation they're not essential for data citation they're two different but related concepts. Authors can certainly cite their own data or data from other sources that they've reused in their papers without a DOI for example using a URL or a handle to link to the data or a detailed description of the data. In this example from Research Data Australia you can see that a handle has been used in the citation rather than a DOI so there's the indication of how the data should be cited if reused and this number here is actually the handle that's been assigned essentially a URL. So I just wanted to clarify there that these are two concepts that are related but not necessarily interdependent. Let's have a look at DOIs in a little bit more detail. DOIs or digital object identifiers are globally unique identifiers that can be assigned to various resource types including research data and journal articles and I'm sure many of you are quite familiar with their use in journal article citations. They provide easy and persistent access to research data and to other resource types that they're assigned to. Some terminology DOIs are minted and are resolvable. So by minting we mean creating a DOI and attaching it to a record that describes research data and by resolvable we mean being able to click on the DOI as a link and have it resolve or take you to the metadata page that describes the data including how to access the data itself. Minting a DOI implies a long-term commitment to maintain the resource it's assigned to. So this is to ensure that anyone clicking on a DOI doesn't receive the dreaded 404 message so the mentor of a DOI needs to commit to keeping the DOI and associated metadata page current. So for example if there is a server upgrade and the data or metadata is moved the DOI must be updated so that it remains current and persistent. DOIs also important in that they support automated tracking of reuse of data which is sometimes known as or now becoming known as data citation metrics. This works in pretty much the same way as citation metrics for other scholarly outputs such as journal articles and I'm sure many of you will be familiar with products like Web of Knowledge and Scopus that track citation metrics for journal articles. Well there are similar services now emerging for tracking data citations and these services largely rely on machine matching of citations so standard citation formats and the use of DOIs make this process more reliable and accurate. You'll see DOIs presented in various format in some cases as in the top example here you will see the name you might see the name of an organization or a data repository embedded in the DOI but in most cases there essentially a pretty meaningless but unique machine readable string. As you can see here there's no real pattern to this except that it's the important bit is that it is globally unique. So how do you go about getting DOIs assigned to research data? Well Anne offers the site my data service which Liz will talk about in more detail shortly. It's a service that's offered free to Australian publicly funded research organizations who wish to assign DOIs to research data software or workflows and when I say free I guess it's probably fair to say that it's at no cost to you to mint. There is of course still the associated cost of the long-term maintenance of the DOI and the associated resources. Just before we move on to hearing more about the service I just wanted to quickly cover why we care about data citation and DOIs. Well data citation is becoming accepted scholarly practice. As data is increasingly being recognized as a first-class research output it's only fair and reasonable that it's appropriately acknowledged and potentially rewarded. It's also fair to say that journals are now embracing data citation. Some of you may be aware that PLOS recently announced a new data policy which requires authors to formally publish the data associated with submitted journal articles. And what we can see here is the publisher community increasingly coming on board with the concept of publishing data and by association a requirement to cite data. We can also see that research funding will have more emphasis on data access and reuse. Some of you may be aware that the ARC earlier this year released new funding rules that encourage researchers to and I'm using their words consider the ways in which they can best manage store disseminate and reuse data generated through ARC funded research. So again data access data reuse really implies data citation acknowledging the origins of that data. And in the future what we can I guess see in our crystal ball is that scholarly metrics are likely to include citations to data. So in the same way that researchers and institutions are now often asked to provide statistics and data around reuse of journal publications through citation metrics there's the potential for the same sort of metrics to apply to data. And the tools are emerging now to enable this. And Thompson Reuters who run the web of knowledge platform which is commonly used for citation metrics for journal articles are first off the rank with a commercial service offering in this area with the release of the data citation index in 2012. And finally a key thing is the DOIs and the assignment of DOIs as best practice for persistent access to data products. So I just wanted to finish up with this data citation ready in this checklist. Unfortunately we don't have time today to go into this in any great detail but you might find it a useful reference to come back to and hopefully Anne's may run some events in the future that will go beyond the basics and start to address some of these issues in a bit more detail. And I'd like to thank Dave Connell from the Australian Antarctic Data Centre for sharing this. The AAD were early adopters of DOIs and data citation and so have a lot of experience that they have happily shared with others in the community who wish to go forward in this area. So that's it from me and I'll hand over to Liz now to talk about the Anne's site my data service. Thank you everyone. Thanks Gary. Now I'm going to give you a brief overview of a service that Anne's office called site my data. You'll normally come into us and ask for this service after you've been through various checklists. You've identified the fact that you have data that is citable, that you have a data management system that allows you to identify how to cite that data and that you're willing to take on the persistence of keeping that data. And what the Anne's site my data service does it enables research organisations to assign the DOIs research data sets or collections. What needs to be noted is it's a machine to machine service. A researcher cannot sign on to Anne's to use a service and fill out a form to obtain a DLI. An organisation makes an agreement with Anne's to be able to access our service from one of their machines to us. The clients embed the service usually within their data management workflows. When they've identified that yes they have data they want to keep, that they have the information about that data and they're storing it in their own university repositories. That's when, inside that automated workflow, they'll probably access our data to obtain a DOI to go along with the other information they have about their data. It is not accessible for individual researchers to use. We had however developed, site my data has been around for a couple of years, we've now developed a user interface for organisations to access to be able to list the DOIs that have been minted for their organisation and to perform various other functions on those DOIs. At this point and there is no talk of definitely in the future that it will happen, there is no talk of us having that interface available to actually mint a DOI. Now more information about site my data and Anne's approach to it can be found at the sitemydata.html at annes.org.au. Now to describe where we fit in Anne's amongst the organisations and within the global aspect of the DOI system the digital object identifier provides a framework for persistent identification. It's based on the handle system which is an ISO international standard. In order to provide DOI minting services integrate with this global system an organisation must be registered as a registry agency. Now Anne's is a member of an established international registration agency called DataSite and as a member of DataSite we can now register data centres with DataSite. Once registered those data centres can then mint DOIs. Now DataSite for our purposes roughly equates to an organisation or an institution a university, CSIRO that would be passed as a data centre. The Anne's site mydata machine to machine service utilises the DOI services offered through our membership with DataSite but we also add a layer of our own administration and business logic to the organisations who are minting through us. Now more information on DataSite and it is worth a read because it describes not only DataSite and its organisation but the importance of DataSitation quite well that can be found at www.datasite.org. Once you have gone through your checklist and you know you wish to mint DOIs and you are a not-for-profit organisation within Australia or you're publicly funded you can register with Anne's to mint a DOI and how you go about that is you contact our services division and to register you'll need a DOI account name which would normally be that's a dename of your organisation. You can provide us with an IP address or a range of IP addresses or a list of ranges of IP addresses of the organisation machine that will be used to mint the DOI through us. Now this is not compulsory anymore as of our last release of the service however it is used for the authentication to make sure that the registered organisation is the organisation attempting to mint a DOI but also need a contact name of a person responsible for the DOI registrations from an organisation and an email address for that person as well. When a DOI is minted for an organisation it has to be known in advance what domain the resolvable URL is in and that top-level domain must be provided as well to register the site my data service. It's not only Anne's that wishes to know this but data sites themselves will not mint a DOI with the resolvable URL pass that does not belong to that top-level domain it's another security feature. Once registered the organisation will have access to mint DOIs through Anne's API however initially they will only be able to do so with what's called that test prefix and this is 10.05027 that moment I believe. This test prefix it will be used in our production system it will mint DOIs on the data site production system however periodically data site will go through and just wipe those DOIs. It's just a proof of concept for your organisation to integrate the site my data service within their organisational data management plan. For a client to implement they will use their Anne's provided authentication details. When they apply for registration to use site my data a client will receive an app ID which is a 32 character long unique identifier. They will also receive a what's called a shared secret if they don't wish to use the IP range for their authentication they'll use a shared secret which will use the authentication of the HTTP service to pass that through and they will access the endpoints of URLs. Now I've provided an endpoint here it's long and looks quite confusing to most probably services.anns.org.au slash DIY 1.1 refers to the version of the service we're using the word mint refers to the activity we wish to do which is mint the variable response type will be the response type that the organisation which is to receive back from site my data service that could be JSON it could be a string or it could be XML. They must also pass along this service point in the URL their app ID and the URL the resultable URL of the DOI they wish to mint. What they also need to provide to mint a DOI is data site XML data site have their own schema of their XML and that XML will describe the data set it will describe most importantly the title the creators or authors the publisher which is usually the organisation in which we will reside in and the year of publication. They must provide this a compulsory data site XML parameters but you'll also know that these are quite quite accurately with the norms of citation. As mentioned previously client will initially be allocated a data site test DOI prefix 10.5 a7 to their testing and implementation the DOI example that Jerry put up previously was 10.5 4.0 26 probably kind of slash a 0 1 a slash and then a unique character the 0 1 will refer to the client ID that we that and give our organisation that we registered I don't know which client it is but it's not us we have a 0 0 and that will allow people to easily without using a name of an organisation to easily identify which organisation has minted that DOI. Now when clients are ready to start minting production DOIs because they've proved that their implementation method is true I'll need to sign with and a site Maya data participation agreement. The bulk of that agreement will be that the institution agrees that they will make sure that that data is persistent this their responsibility to ensure that that DOI is always resolved. Once signed they send that agreement to ANS and once ANS has agreed that yes it's all everyone's working well then you'll be assigned a production DOI prefix but ANS we have three production DOI prefix that data site have allowed us and 10.4.26 25 and 27 I think however once minted under the production prefix those DOIs will never be deleted so they always must be maintained and that really is a big component of that data site agreement that how to implement I've rushed over but I know because I don't know how many developers are out there and I'm pretty sure you don't want me to start speaking too many acronyms at you but we have a fairly extensive document on how to implement the site my data service and that can be found on the ANS website cmd-technical-document.pdf now I did mention that data site XML must be passed to the minting service there are compulsory elements that must be passed in that of that XML now the first one I've listed the URL isn't actually part of the XML that gets passed on the command line parameter however it is compulsory title creators publisher a publication year are all compulsory elements of that XML they must be included if not it'll just file the schema verification and it won't mint that's an example of the XML it's just it's letting you know that it's a data site schema that it gets validated against at this instance in here it's version three of their schema and you can see that publication year publisher title can create up for all them it's worth noting at this point that a lot of our first adapters of the site my data will confuse that they had to provide two ANS a different XML schema they're very used to our RIFCS schema which is our way of describing a data set however because we are minting DOIs we need to have the data site XML it is possible in some instances for us to generate a data site XML from a RIFCS schema especially if a contributor in their RIFCS object have used the citation metadata element and filled it out and people who have done that will recognize that the elements within the compulsory element to the data site schema match up quite neatly with the RIFCS citation metadata schema there is no thought in process at the moment however that we are going to go and run through our RIFCS and develop data site XML for users so just a little summary on how you would approach using the site my data service you'd have to contact ANS to talk about the service and send the account information described to us you then have to use your own developers within your own data repository methods to automatically from machine to machine mint DOIs through our ANS service you do so first with the test prefix once that has been proved you would then sign a site my data participation agreement and that agreement would be sent to ANS and then you'd be given a production prefix and be able to mean production DOIs for your data sets as I mentioned earlier due to client request ANS developed also a user interface into the site my data service what this user interface currently will do is will enable a client to list all the DOIs minted it'll be able to ensure that the URL that they provided whilst minting their DOI is a resolvable URL that also be able to click a button and they'll have in front of them the data site xml for that DOI they can also update the URLs for their DOIs through this application they can also check that all the DOIs minted by them are resolvable and have a report sent to the email address that was provided during the registration process they could have a look at their registration details and they can also view the activity log of every time they've minted updated activated deactivated the DOI and as of yesterday afternoon we had 27 organizations or clients who have registered with data site via us to use the site my data service and those clients have minted 5343 production DOIs through our site my data service and that's it for me. Great well thanks very much Jerry and Liz it's great to have some discussion about the advantages of data citation and DOIs but also the nuts and bolts of how that's done we're now going to have have an opportunity for our audience members to ask questions of Jerry and Liz so I'll just read the bottom so first question we've got is Jerry seems to be saying that DOI should resolve to metadata whereas my experience with persistent identifiers handles is that they would typically be resolved to the digital object itself rather than the descriptive metadata do we then need two separate persistent IDs one for the metadata and one for the actual research data Jerry is that something that you could offer some advice on? What we would generally recommend is that a DOI would resolve to a splash page or a metadata page what we find is that with research data what people commonly want is for people to be able to see things like license conditions access options citation requirements the sort of information that's contained within a metadata page rather than perhaps taking somebody directly to a data set I mean that is possible but the preference is generally that it would resolve to a splash or metadata page that describes the data and the conditions around the reuse of the data so you wouldn't necessarily need to have two persistent identifiers what you would do is ensure that the DOI associated with that metadata page that you maintain the resources so that you would still have access to the data and it's probably also worth mentioning that in some cases DOI may resolve to a landing page that actually describes a physical rather than a digital object or that describes how to access data rather than giving you direct access to the data so in some cases you may need to register first you may need to contact somebody if there may be some ethical requirements around access to the data and this information can all be provided on the on the metadata page I hope that's answered the question thanks Jerry um it sounds like it would have and we have the opportunity if people want to follow up question to that please do type in I'll move to the next question we have now do handles as opposed to DOIs have any disadvantages in terms of data citation metrics that is can either be used in altmetrics or tr data citation index for example so what's the what's the advantage of meeting a DOI over a handle over another handle I guess the the DOI seem to have have emerged as I guess the gold standard or the preferred persistent identifier if you look around at many of the data repositories you'll see that they assign DOIs or that they prefer that you assign a DOI you can see how well established DOIs are in the journal community so they've really emerged I guess is the gold standard and therefore it is preferable if you are able to mint DOIs and assign them to data that is preferable in our dealings with people like Thompson Reuters who have developed the data citation index they will accept records that don't include a DOI but they have stated that they would prefer a DOI I think it's because they are guaranteed globally unique they have this implication of long-term persistence and maintenance so certainly for those sorts of providers DOIs seem to be the preferred standard thanks Jerry I'll move to the next question again are there any issues to consider if you have a range of producing organizations in your data collection so I imagine that means if your data collection involves a number of organizations or institutions what through which institutional organization would you would you mint the DOI? What we what we say I guess in general is that if the data is the result of collaboration then it really needs to be decided I guess a bit like when you're publishing a journal article who the lead person is or who has the capacity to publish and perhaps assign a DOI to the data so certainly you would want to try and avoid situations where the same data set is published multiple times and assigned multiple DOIs through that process that's really not particularly desirable so really in those cases it would come down to having that conversation amongst the collaborators to determine who will publish and who will assign a DOI happy to talk to people offline if they've got specific questions that don't get covered today if I've misinterpreted thanks Jerry that sounds like a really helpful option as well another question for a single experiment with several associated data sets is it preferred practice to mint a single DOI or mint multiple DOIs per data set is it possible to have sub DOIs this is a question I've heard before so this is obviously a popular one yeah yep this does come up about I guess the granularity of what you assign a DOI to and what we try to encourage people to think about is the granularity at which the data is likely to be reused and therefore cited there may also be some very practical considerations speaking to somebody recently who's involved in managing a lot of astronomy data the practicalities of assigning DOIs and being able to guarantee and maintain those DOIs at a very granular level just you know wasn't going to happen so a decision was made to actually assign a DOI at a higher level so it does really depend a little bit on the discipline and what the expectations are of the reuse and the citation and it is possible if you have a look at the data site metadata guidelines it is possible to cite subsets of data so if there's DOIs assigned at a quite high level you are able to cite a subset within that DOI within that level so there are some options there and you know there's some also very practical considerations around being able to guarantee that that persistence and maintain DOI thanks Jerry that's um that's a yeah a great and a really extensive answer to that question which as I said does come up quite a bit um I've just got a follow-up to um an earlier question which you answered as well as well so just to follow it up because people might still be thinking about this so just in relation to the question of if you've got a range of producing organizations for your data collection um the follow-up question being so does that mean that does that mean that the organization meeting the DOI is considered the publisher or can you distinguish between the data producer and the data producer or owner and the DOI mentor so the data site metadata schema which Liz described as the mandatory requirements does allow you to describe a number of roles apart from the creator and the publisher and I guess it depends so that is possible to describe that through the data site metadata schema it's also possible to describe that in your metadata page or your or your splash page so I guess it depends on uh whether you're wanting to use this for tracking reuse or to ensure appropriate acknowledgement of the owner as opposed to the publisher or the creator essentially the publisher is the organization that takes on that role of long-term custodianship of the data and the release of that data thanks gerry this next one might be a question for Liz if an organization is already minting DOIs for publications through other means do you think it would be worth separately using site my data to mint DOIs for data absolutely mainly because they are linked to data sites that's where your XML will be stored and data site themselves are now set up almost two people will go and search there to find information about the data and data topics and it's designed for citing data I would highly recommend that an organization even if they are making DOIs for journals would still come to site my data or another organization that may work through data site to mint DOIs for their data but the big yes next question is what would the format be for citing a subset within a data set so would it be similar to a book chapter within a book or journal article within sorry or journal article within a journal this comes down to sort of citation conventions or whether there is currently a convention for doing that yeah there are there are some conventions that you'll you can have a look at some examples that at the data site meta data schema and I'm happy to talk with whoever asked that question offline if they've got a specific use case or example that they might like some assistance with we've looked at examples with people where a subset may actually be something what what you're actually citing is perhaps the the the data and the query against a database that so that where the data may be updated or it could be something that's more analogous to that example of you know a book chapter or you know pagination within a journal article it really depends on the type of data and I'm happy to sort of talk about some it will talk with somebody about specific examples it might be quite variable depending on on what kind of data it is so yeah yeah so people want to want to contact that very generous offer dirty to contact her directly she could provide some examples or guidance on that that seems to be the the end of oh no apologies here's another question um can a single DIY be used for ongoing research data or is it a is it preferred practice to meet a new DIY upon release of the new of new data associated with the experiment I guess this is a very um pertinent question it for example in in repeat at all longitudinal data sets um and again a quite a popular question I've fed it myself so I know Derry has good answers this one so there's a couple of ways of looking at this and again it's a little bit dependent on the type of data and how you're seeing see it being reused and what commitment you're able to make to the you know minting and maintenance of DOIs but in some cases people choose to assign a new DIY if it is for instance a longitudinal study you know cut off that depending on what it is but perhaps at a yearly basis time slice that and assign a DOI to that and then you know do the same thing year in year out and package those up say as an annual data set and assign a DOI to that in other cases it may be a data set that continues to grow over time uh it may be um so it may not it may not be something that you wish to sort of wrap up in a in an annual snapshot and in that case you might assign choose to assign a DOI to the data set as a whole and again ask people to cite uh the say the date and time that it was accessed when they actually took some of the data out to reuse so again there can be multiple ways of looking at this and we've seen you know examples of both ways being of both ways being implemented thank you um this next question I think will fall to live if we are minting DOIs through and what will happen and so will we work directly with data site yes that's possibly what would happen every data center that we have registered with data site do actually um have their own then account with data site and as Anne's at the time of registration was a member that data site will want to those data centers and they would be access data sites API to continue to mint as well just so we did have a question um earlier on and I might just ask for a bit of clarification on the petition to ask that question because we're just not sure whether it's in relation to an earlier question would it be appropriate to add a comment based on experience for example uh don't include a readme dot text files so can you just repeat the question I thought you've lost it yes yeah it looks like it might have been in relation to another question would it be appropriate to add a comment based on experience for example don't include a readme text file with the data perhaps if the participant who highlighted that question might add a little bit of context around that we could offer an answer and if they're if they're not to perhaps contact um contact us afterwards I mean there's uh I guess just in general terms there's uh absolutely no reason why as part of a data collection or data set that you wouldn't include a readme uh file that's actually can be quite useful in providing greater context than can be provided perhaps in a simple metadata record um and in some cases those readme text files you know provide information about software versions that you might need to reuse the data or tools that might be available to reuse the data how to cite the data so there's um it's it's certainly very acceptable practice to include that sort of information as part of you know wrapped up as part of a data set and to provide as much context uh information with the data as you can thank you Jerry um as I said I hope that's answered the question um okay we've just got a couple of new questions that have come through can more than one unit within an institution for a university in their own DOIs or is that at the university level I'm not sure this sort of comes down to the same part of our discussions we'd have between a group and an institution with the RIFCS that would I'm sorry that's a that would most political aims that you'd need once you'd have the discussion with the ANS services team I think I think the preference normally um is to have one per institution where possible but I think we've seen some instances where there's more than one but I think um I think the preference is uh one per institution where possible another question is there a process or requirement for checking if a DOI already exists in relation to no if you're going to use my data we do the checking for you and in fact we actually allocate your DOI to you and that um non-represent string at the end is always going to be unique as in you cannot meet a DOI that's already there it is possible however if the question is meant that you can have two DOIs that have the same resolution point which is obviously something to avoid um and that would have been staking your implementation is I'm not quite sure which way that's a question meant as in do you forget dissolving or do you forget DOI itself just can I think I'm going to take the first one yeah yeah um and the comment actually from another ANS member in relation to to the reading text comment would be um which is which might be helpful as well for the participant it would be good if the read me um was made accessible via a URL and then the metadata page couldn't link to it so like the related info element on the research data Australia review thanks for that comment and just an update on that question again so some clarification around the original question um was it the participant meant if the data exists in two places it might already have a DOI ah this one I should hand over to Jerry probably I think we've had discussion similar about amalgamators of data and so the data itself may exist in two places and I'm not quite sure what's using that yeah and if if it's already been assigned a DOI in one organization say somebody deposits the data in let's say the panjaya data repository and it gets assigned a DOI and then uh someone wants to publish or or or expose the same data through another repository perhaps an institutional repository uh yes ideally you would reuse the DOI assigned by panjaya rather than generate a new one so in that sense I guess if you suspect that the data has already been assigned a DOI or published elsewhere it would be worth um checking um so that you can reuse the existing DOI uh rather than create a new one you don't really want you know it's not ideal to have multiple copies of the same data published in you know if you if you think about it in the same way as other types of scholarly outputs um it's not you know it's preferable to not have multiple copies of the same data uh it's self published but you could have many metadata records um describing the data that a point to a reference copy will seem to have come to the end of uh of our questions so we might wrap up there if there was um any further clarification um needed or add on questions do feel free to contact them um and at this point um this may be thank you to both Liz and Jerry um for offering expertise today and um and thank you to audience members for for your questions as well I think that's that's really clarified a number of issues um for everyone hopefully yeah thanks everybody thank you you