 As the death toll from the building collapse in Iqoyi Lagos State continues to rise, Governor Baba Jire San Olu has condemned the incident saying mistakes were made from all angles. The governor spoke about the tragedy when he visited the site on Wednesday. Joining us to discuss this is an architect, Ebi Oene Bozimo. Ebi, thank you very much for joining us. It's a pleasure to be here. Great to see you, Maria. Same here. I just want us to go back to the basics, the beginning of it all, because now we're talking about the aftermath, which is the collapse. But you're an architect, and for those who do not understand, before a building comes together and becomes a house or a home or a structure, there are many people that come together to make that happen, and there are colds, there are certain measures that need to be followed to erect a building, right? Very correct. All construction is major teamwork. We have to have the right people doing the right things at the right time in the right way. If any of those isn't happening appropriately, you are storing up a potential problem. In many cases, when a project is not so consequential, people get away with much less. But when you have such a significant structure, the degree of care and attention has to be massively increased. Now, in the case of this equate building, I mean, there's been so much talk about it, and what led to, in some cases, we've heard reports of the fact that it wasn't approved for it to be a 21-story building, the foundation. ABU and I have had conversations in this regard as to what to do or how the foundation of a building can affect the structure in itself. Even though the deputy governor of Lagos States has come out to say that it's not true that the foundation was definitely for a 21-story. But again, we also hear that there have been, from reports that we've gathered, that there are people who withdrew from that project because they knew that certain lines were crossed and eyes were not dotted and teeth were not crossed, as they should have been. And there were corners that were being cut, as we have seen the aftermath. Now, could those things have not been avoided? Now, we know that there are people who approve, who look through all of these buildings, give approvals before they are erected. While they're still being built, there are people who continue to look at these things. At what point do you think that they lost it for this to happen? Okay, the thing about, let's start from this. Right now, in the immediate aftermath, all the investigations are going to seem until a proper, if you will call it, forensic investigation is done. We can't have concrete answers. But in terms of process and procedure, just like you say, the design has to be founded on something. Before a structure even starts, there is a geotechnical test where they inspect the soil and the structures below to determine what kind of foundation it should be. It is based on that that the structural engineer now comes up with the structural support system for the entire building. And even in that system, there are certain things that have to be done and quality control processes that must be done at each stage. We saw that lecture where the structural engineer withdrew their structural consultancy. That was the red flag. Another red flag is the fact that such a prominent building with the pride of anyone and all of the consultants on the project. Ironically, the project signboard had nobody's name, only a few numbers. That was another red flag. So you have to ask, to say, where did it go wrong? Many little steps appeared to have gone wrong and together they culminated in this unfortunate collapse. Ebi, we've seen these things happen over and over again in Nigeria. This said person who owns these buildings, according to what we've heard, has had buildings in other parts of the world. And I'm guessing I want to believe that if you were to erect a building similar to this in, let's say, South Africa or in the UK or in the US, you have to follow the building codes to the latter or else that project will be shut down. But when you bring it home to Nigeria, we always have the issues of corruption, kickbacks. Is this just about us being corrupt? Or is it that the Nigerian system allows for these things to fester? I'm asking because we have heard that this same person has built similar flats in other countries and they're still standing, I presume. But I'd like to take your mind back to something that you and I have experienced in Port Hakkot and it's still, of course, for those who are family members of those who died in the rubble of that building in the Government Residential Area in Port Hakkot, I think that was two or three years ago. It would be about two years ago. It was almost the same issue of not following due process and on payday every single person in that building somewhat were caught under that rubble. So why do we continuously have these building collapses in Nigeria? And nothing ever really is done about it. It makes the news we sensationalize it, but we do not see Government's will and power to push through so that these things don't repeat themselves. Somebody said it's simply a case of ROI taking precedence over HSE. Health, safety and environment was considered less important than return on investment. There is a piece of paper going around suggesting that the building had been approved for 15 stories. The Deputy Governor, however, said that one structure was approved for 21 stories. We'll take him at his word. Whatever the case, obviously some steps didn't go right because tall buildings are not a mystery. They exist by the hundreds or even thousands around the world. They are not new. It is about the processes and the degree of diligence required when we are doing a building of such significance and social consequence. So corruption exists all over the world, but people even in their own enlightened self-interest ensure that they follow the steps. I understand that in some of the other projects the gentleman has done, according to his own words, there he managed to change the original approval. Maybe in those cases the consequences weren't that much. You see, by the time you're going that high, any little mistake is magnified very, very quickly. We're building. It may not be as bad, but if you're adding two, three floors to a 15-story building, the impact is massive. So let's talk about the political will to deal with these issues because I'm not being a pessimist, but I'm sure in not too distant a time, we're still going to have this conversation again. Maybe not on this platform. It might be happening in a few weeks. It might, God forbid. But the truth is there seems not to be a political will to make sure that these things don't happen. So what do we need to do? And then you, of course, belong to a group of people who are certified and should know right from wrong. Is there a lobbying, a push of sorts? Will there be lawsuits to push or drive the message home? Because there seems to be a lot more politicking these days in buildings much more than HSC, just as you have said. Certainly, we are advocates of vector building practices at all times. We exist as all the professionals in the built environment to make the lives and functions that people engage in safe. That is what we deal with. So we as an advocacy body, Nigerian Institute of Architects, along with the Nigerian Society of Engineers and everybody else is always pushing for higher standards. There is a building code that needs to be passed into law and then domesticated at the various levels in the States so that that becomes the guiding minimum expected standard. In terms not just of materials, but of personnel. By the time you're doing a building of that sort, the kind of personnel you have must be above the certain level. You can't just get somebody who just has a degree and say they are in charge. There are many other aspects. But politically, we have to stop letting influence be a determinant of the projects we are doing. In all parts of the world, influence plays a role, but it must not have the outsized influence it has in our context. I'm not in any way trying to sensationalize the issue, but unfortunately, there are a lot of heightened emotions right now. You can see from the videos, family members wailing, some are very angry at the speed at which the rubble is being dug through. What do we tell members of the families, or those who have been left behind, by those who have died under these buildings? And I'm not talking about just this one that's happened in Ikui. I mean, they continue to live within this environment. And really, how do they get justice? Don't forget, I hear that this building, monies have been paid. Many people have already paid hoping to get a home. And then, of course, I'm wondering what would happen. But how do people who their family members were caught in this rubble get justice? The first thing people have to understand is that the process of rescue has to be done extremely carefully. Otherwise, you run the risk of further hurting some potential survivors. So patience is required. When it comes to getting justice, definitely I suspect there will be some class action-type lawsuits that may be done against the authorities and the government and the proprietors and so on. Oh, I think that we've lost him. Well, Abia, win it? Okay, Abia, can you hear me? Yes, I hear you. I lost you for a few minutes. I'm right here. Yes, I'm here. All right, in closing. So in the area of legalism, they'll deal with that. But in the area of construction, processes exist. This is not rocket science. Building a building is ordinary in today's world. It's just doing the right thing at the right time with the right people and in the right way. Many buildings have collapsed before. It was not that the materials were bad, they were used wrongly. For those who need justice, they should get justice. But nobody wants really to be pursuing justice. We would rather have our loved ones coming home safely. So let's not rely on justice after the fact. Let's take more preventive action. In terms of our, I think this could be a moment when the entire narrative of construction changes. This is a moment we all have to forcefully demand that the building codes be passed, they appropriate people, the lifestyles, and this unregulated environment in which construction is done in Nigeria must stop. Everybody just gets up and decides to become a contractor, whatever that means. It's not right. There are specialists in this. There are specialist builders. And even builders have different levels of authority and responsibility. Not everybody can build a 21 story building. So we have to have the proper checks before the fact and then you minimize those interlopers who now get into construction where they are not actually qualified. This should be a watershed moment in Nigerian construction industry. We never want to have this conversation ever again. I hope we don't. Well, Ibuenek Bosimo is an architect. Thank you very much. He was joining us live from Potakot River State. It's always a pleasure and a privilege, Mary. I'm so wonderful to see you. All right. Well, thank you for staying with us. It's been Plus Politics on Plus TV Africa. And I'm thanking you for watching. I'm Mary Anacorn. Do have a great evening.