 All right Looks like we're live How's it going everyone? Okay Good good. All right Got this Hollywood school thing. So it's good. You know at the end of the conference Which is fun. Thank you everyone for you know attending this to see panel basically to you know and the conference You know make sure that the TOC is approachable and everyone can ask questions And you know things you can learn about what's being planned for for the next year. So kind of kick things off I'll introduce, you know myself names Chris Anizic. I have the fun job of you know serving the technical community in CNCF You know, we have currently 10 TOC members, you know, that will go throughout and introduce themselves I will call each of you out individually to kind of say hi and talk a little bit about your you know job and Enroll so to start things off. I'll just go in order from what I could see. So we'll start with Alayna Hello everyone, my name is Alina Prokarchik. I'm I work for Apple They're a help different engineering team to onboard the cloud native infrastructure Always excited to learn about the new use cases and always to improve the platform and happy to be here. Thank you, Chris Thanks Alayna had a fun keynote earlier in the conference Next up for me is Dave Hey, I'm Dave Engineer and that's on Spotify's platform team and I've done a bunch of work around our adoption of kubernetes and gRPC and On-board worker on the perimeter things like that. I'm I think the newest TOC member on this board So I'm still kind of figuring out what I do here and how to do it, but happy to be here Cool, thank you Dave very much Next up for me is our TOC chair Liz Liz rice Hi. Yeah, so thanks Chris. I'm Liz rice. I look after the open source engineering team at aqua security and Yeah, I'm chair of the TOC and Dave. Don't worry. We're all figuring out what we're doing as we go along Constantly iterate. It's the way it works. Next up is is Michelle Hey everyone, can you hear me? Okay? Loud and clear Awesome. I'm Michelle Neurely. I am a software engineer here at Microsoft Azure I work on open source tools in the cloud native ecosystem focusing on making containers and kubernetes easier to use I am currently a core maintainer on the service mesh interface project and the open service mesh projects and Previously I've worked on several other tools in the cloud native space I'm also an emeritus maintainer on the Helm project Happy to be here Lots of projects there next up is sod All right. Thanks Chris. My name is sad Ali. I'm a software engineer at Google and my background has mostly been around storage for kubernetes and the CSI project and I'm very excited to be a part of the TOC and See what I can do to help other projects as well Thank you sod Brendan burns is up next All right. I fiddle with my sound setting. So hopefully it's not quite so loud. Hi. I'm Brendan Burns. I Work in Microsoft Azure For a bunch of compute and cloud native services on Azure as well as our upstream open source work Awesome. Thank you, Brandon. You don't sound like a lawnmowers going in the background. So Progress has been made. I think I was on my like built-in laptop mic and not my headset Apologies Or is all good. I'll go next up is Justin Cormack Hi, I'm Justin Cormack. I'm an engineer at Docker. I'm Maintainer of notary and I'm the maintainer elected representative on the TOC I'm also very involved with sick security and work on lots of security related stuff Awesome. Thank you Justin Matt Klein up next Hey, everyone, I'm Matt Klein. I'm a software engineer at Lyft I spend about 50% of my time on infrastructure leadership at Lyft And then I spend the other 50% of my time working on CNCF Envoy and all of the other fun stuff. Nice to be here Cool. Thank you. Thank you Matt and then Cheng Hi, I'm Xian Liang. I'm co-founder and CEO of Rancho Labs and We I think as Rancho Labs we We contributed a couple of sandbox projects to CNCF so far long horn and K3s and We look forward to Doing more with you know with CNCF Awesome. Thank you. I don't think Zheng from Ali is here unless I'm wrong I don't see him in my magical Hollywood Square. So You know, we'll continue, you know, I'm gonna Share my screen in a second here to kind of go over Our presentation, but generally we have 11 TOC members currently the TOC is down to 10 because You know, sometimes when you find an amazing person to hire you hire them and we you know ended up hiring Katie Comangie who used to serve as the end user a representative For the TOC so we are down to 10. Let me go share my screen See if this actually works All right All good. Hopefully this works. So Here is You know a wonderful TOC like I mentioned we have 10 You know, we usually have 11 when we have a full house You know representing, you know and users GB appointed me, you know representatives and Maintainer appointed representatives a good kind of cross-section of the different communities we serve You know one thing that you know I constantly highlight that a lot of people new to CNCF Generally don't understand is you know as a community We have come up with a set of you know guiding principles that the TOC has produced That we publish on GitHub and we kind of you know evaluate it's been a while since we've done an update We're probably overdue to kind of take a second look at it But if you kind of go through some of these principles, you know, we're always about putting projects You know first, you know projects are independent and self-governing the foundation doesn't really metal With projects along with to see members. They're really there to advise and guide We're generally looking looking for you know, high quality Lowering projects, you know, we kind of have a rule around, you know, king makers If you saw from, you know, Liz's wonderful keynote just earlier Kind of highlighted that point around no king makers and you know one size does not fit all You know, even though we host things like specifications, you know things like CNI SMI We're not a traditional standards bodies, you know, we're very much, you know code first Practical use and the kind of spec follows And really, you know at the end of the day we truly want to you know help, you know projects, you know You know above and beyond and what they could typically get, you know from from a foundation So, you know During this whole cube con with you know, 23,000 or so people are tending got pinged by, you know You know, at least probably a couple dozen people like we want to bring our projects to the you know, CNCF How does it work, you know Good news is this year. We've documented a lot of improvements when it comes to Processes so if you go to our documentation, especially our project proposals doc You'll find a lot of that information there. It's generally fairly straightforward We've made a lot of improvements around the sandbox process. So it's a lot easier now to You know propose projects and for the to see to kind of deal with the inbound of requests On the bright side, you can kind of see all the existing proposals So if you're kind of new to this Please kind of you know, look at the existing proposals out there and kind of get ideas and maybe attend One of the public to see meetings that happen every couple weeks Or just jump on slack. We're super friendly and happy to to answer any questions that you have You know, as we're kind of, you know wrapping up this year, you know, some of us on the staff side We've been working on an internal Report or you know, essentially the a lot of data that feeds into our annual report that will publish in January But one thing that kind of shocked me this year is that we actually accepted 35 Projects, you know, super majority of them being in sandbox, which if you kind of look at our history It's by far the most we've ever accepted, you know in a year in in CNCF at all, which is a little bit A little bit wild You know, we went through the expansion of upping the toc from, you know, loving people total and got that fully staffed out This year, which has been awesome. We improved the end user representation, which has been great We added two new sigs this year around Serbability and also contributor strategy, which has been Great and kind of formalizing a lot of Ideas to help projects get started and just being great advisors outside of just the the staff that usually handles the the brunt of that work as I mentioned before we simplified the sandbox projects, which you know beginning I think I had some hesitations there, but generally it's Definitely improved the acceleration in which we've accepted projects. I think that's been a positive thing overall and as of this year we also Uh, you know graduated five projects So helm harbour tight kv broke and for some of these we're giving a bit of a preview for next week, but at cd We'll we'll graduate Next next monday or tuesday, I believe so it'd be great to kind of end the year with five projects hitting that And then that level the big thing that I like to remind folks on You know, the toc is really stacked with community members folks that kind of represent You know, uh, the community whether they're project maintainers ambassadors and so on nominations for essentially six slots will be opening up in january We'll have six slots And they'll represent different, uh, you know kind of Areas and and and designated slots that the toc has so two of them will be end user appointed So this is from our end user community that uh, sharyl hung runs. Uh, they'll be Working to appoint those three of them will come to the governing board and one will be from the toc itself gets to Appoint them. So we'll go through this whole process and we'll be super public about it We'll remind everyone so we just pay attention and if you're interested In running feel free to reach out to me or any other toc members and they could kind of talk about the You know time commitments pros cons and all that wonderful stuff that happens with the role Um, not really going to dive into the prediction since Liz had a wonderful keynote on this I think we're gonna, you know, kind of move back to hollywood squares and essentially start asking You know, the toc is some questions and and and so on. So, uh, let me go stop sharing my Green here. So let's see if we could go back to hollywood squares mode Austin kind of see everyone here for the most part um So, uh, before I kind of kick off our, uh questions, um out there Um, you know, I'd love to kind of uh, see if you know, Liz made all these kind of wonderful predictions You know around communities on the edge web assembly bf is there something that uh, you know She potentially missed or glossed over that anyone wants to kind of, you know, uh, bring up You know bring up here any kind of thoughts on where we're gonna Uh, you know go next year in terms of predictions. Anyone want to jump in and take this? um Go ahead brendan so, uh, I mean I say this every year I guess but um I think broadening the developer base and the cloud native ecosystem is is critical um, I think it's just too hard to build applications um And we focused a lot of energy on operating applications and that's great But like if we don't make it easier for people to build these applications I don't think we're doing anybody a service. So I'm you know excited about bringing things like no-code to kubernetes and uh other kinds of you know developer productivity that we can We can focus on so I'm hopeful every year. I say we're going to do this and we make some progress But I'll keep saying it till we actually make full progress awesome Definitely, I don't know if you saw uh, there was some crazy person who hooked like google sheets to monitoring like and editing Kubernetes cluster. Hopefully we'll we'll see some innovation in this space to make it easier for for everyone anyone Is I was thinking more quake. I like the quake. I like monitor k Anyone else want to take this, uh, any other predictions for next year if we're going to dive into our normal Panel the lizmus anything I've got something. Um, I think extensibility is something that uh, we've been driving a lot on in this community and uh, I expect that's going to continue I think a lot of the standards that have emerged like CSI have become well established and have allowed kind of a plethora of companies to Solutions to be able to integrate together with the ecosystem And so I expect that those extensibility points are going to continue to expand Awesome. Do you have any particular areas you think that will yeah object storage was an interesting one where you know Datapath has not really been standardized and we don't really have a good way to be able to plug in an arbitrary object storage now the kubernetes folks are starting to look at a container object storage interface And what would that look like is it? I mean I'm going to be as extensible as CSI has been in terms of being able to plug in an arbitrary object storage system to An arbitrary workload on kubernetes on any environment. Can we get to that point? And so that's an interesting and exciting kind of frontier that's being explored Awesome. Awesome All right I will move on to our set of questions. Uh, then I'll go check You know in in slack to see if anyone has anything in particular but to kind of kick off our kind of first, uh, You know question, uh, you know, I'll start with um You know essentially the the service mesh, you know space. So, you know, cncf has a Hey, you know a handful of projects in the service mesh ecosystem, you know, uh, kuma smi linker d Envoy, even though matt's he completely keeps yelling at me that envoys not a service mesh Maybe talk about all that. What do you think? You know, what do you predict kind of happening? You know in in the space there seems to be a lot of approaches Um, there's a spec now, um, you know, what what do you kind of see happening? Uh in in the service mesh space, uh, next year, we'll start with matt first since Thanks for thanks for putting me on the spot Um, and yes envoy is not a service mesh. I just want to say that again. Envoy is not a service mesh. Um, you know, I I like people ask me this all the time and i'm going to be honest I don't know what the answer is and I I think I don't know what the answer is Because service mesh is not a very mature space right now. There's lots of different solutions I'm I'm personally obviously very biased. I think the data plane is converging on envoy but I just think we we're seeing a proliferation of components out there in the control plane space and I always step back to what are the problems that people are trying to solve and I think this comes back to what Brendon was actually saying Which is that we're building a lot of infrastructure, but it's still too hard to write applications and from the end user perspective They don't actually care how load balancing and retries and all of these things are implemented So it's it's somewhat of an implementation detail And I think that as we move forward over the next few years We're just going to be looking at more integrated platforms that that bring together How we how we deploy applications how we connect to various systems like apis and pub sub etc And I just don't I don't actually foresee a future in which we're going to keep going down this independent service mesh path I think users are going to come to expect a set of features And whether that comes from projects like k native or other serverless platforms Um, and you know, I I think they'll be using projects like envoy and kubernetes under the hood But I'm actually personally very skeptical that we're going to continue to see a bunch of these independent projects I think over time we're going to see some of them go away. Some of them are going to get merged into larger Larger projects and systems So so is there, you know, no hope for envoy to be rewritten in russe over the next couple of years Wow, you're just you're just trying to get a rise out of me during this event Hard time Do you actually want me to answer that absolutely why why not absolutely? Uh, I I think that over time we will I'm not uh, I'm not a big believer in a complete rewrite envoys Hundreds of thousands of lines of code and with millions of lines of dependencies So I don't think it's realistic to do a complete rewrite I do think that over time via things like web assembly and embedding rust and I I think we will see envoy You know start to use those types of systems, but no, I don't think we'll ever do a complete rewrite Yeah, so probably less lua more uh more web assembly Yeah, I think less less lua more uh more web assembly I think we will end up using rust within envoy. I think over time it'll be a mix of c++ and rust But you know, that's that's something that's going to evolve over the next couple of years I mean, there's hundreds of millions and billions of lines of c++ So I I think there's a general problem out there that we're not going to rewrite the world and we have to figure out how to gradually migrate to safer systems Definitely We are we are seeing more rust in the cloud native space, which is exciting. We've the security space has really Adopted rust and we're seeing I'm things like parsec in the sandbox and there's a lot of interest in rust there and and you know, we You know, so there's a bunch of rust projects and there's a bunch of interest in rust and I think there's a lot of I think we'll see a lot more over the next year because a lot of people, you know I talked to in the space or adopting it for these projects. So I think it's there's a lot of promise there Yeah, definitely I see it more popping up more and more but you know, very very little in let's say production As far as I'm concerned Um, anyone else on the topic of rust while we're while we're there or I dive into another question No, but on the topic of service mesh, um, I did want to highlight that Uh I think they lost michelle. Yeah, maybe lost michelle's audio. She was gonna make system. It's like just salient point That's okay Build the space with a less amazing point about service mesh than michelle's was going to be I know I was so uh, so thrilled Go ahead I will try to give us 50% of michelle's awesomeness. Um, I think for us the bigger thing is something Uh, kind of the point that matt was making more. I think about envoy that for us Talking about service mesh has been really hard because Kind of most of the company doesn't care. They just want some feature of service mesh So for us, it's been really hard to go around the company and talk about like, oh I don't know insert service mesh technology here. Do we care and Very few people across the company building features care. What they care about is that they get retries or fault tolerance or Some other interesting routing pattern that we can get from A service mesh, but it's a very rarely that anyone says like hey platform team. Give me a service mesh Yeah All right, so I think michelle may be back on so maybe you could follow up Can you hear me, okay? Yeah, absolutely Let's hope this works So, yeah, um signal working has been working on a conformance suite for smi And uh, that's a really exciting thing because whenever conformance comes around Um, and and people work on it that means, you know, multiple people are trying to implement one thing and kind of converging in a space and I think In the service mesh space like I mean like everybody else has echoed like it's really about the feature set Not really about the actual implementation. And so and and in the greater cloud native community We've just been building these modular interoperable components. Um, kind of working our Higher level like top You know to eventually To eventually end up building a really good experience for end users And eventually getting to that point where they can just be like, hey Like I just want retries and fault tolerance and a really easy and seamless ab experience like I think Since 2015 people have been asking like, how do I do ab testing in cloud native or kubernetes environments? How do I do canary deployments? So? Once we get to a point where people are like this is easy I think that'll be a success and I hope we get closer to that in the next year and See more tools being built and coming out of cloud native Competing foundation that are Really at that Higher level and and focusing on the experience rather than the details Awesome, awesome. Thank you. Thank you, michelle. It looks like we finally have some great audience participation here from Someone, uh, throw this to the audience. I'm also happy to answer it. Um, our early stage projects built by individuals Likely to be accepted in the sandbox Or is it more about vision or project maturity number contributors feature sets stability and so on anyone want to take a Because yeah, I can This go See if we say something similar. Yeah. So, um, the CNCF offers this neutral ground for collaboration Um, and we do want to be a good place for people to come together and build great projects It's not necessarily going to make sense to have one person come along with an idea Um, you know, there there is a cost associated with you know, the work to host every project So I would say that when we see people from different organizations wanting to come together it's Nearly always going to be a no-brainer that if if it's cloud native and there are multiple organizations It makes sense for them to have a neutral place to do that work And if they don't have that neutral place, they can't do that work in many cases Whereas for an individual there isn't really a blocker Preventing them from going on with their project and building up a bit of traction and making sure that it's You know something that is going to suit the community somehow by almost by definition having multiple organizations collaborating that makes it More likely to be a community relevant project, I would say Brendan was that anything like what you were going to say? Yeah, I think that was basically what I was going to say as well, which is that, you know We're not github right, we're not a project coaster And we're what we are about is facilitating collaboration and so you know, I think that You know while we have projects that are sort of led by single companies um they tend to Project that's led by a single company tends to have a higher bar in terms of number of users Uh number of sort of important importance. I mean, I think there's at cd is a great example of a very important project where there was relatively few contributors and it was basically from one or two companies But it still was important to have it. So it's not like it's a hard and fast rule, but it but I think that um The you know if you're talking about fast path or easiest way to do it build up a bunch of people who want to collaborate on something and and it's pretty much becomes a Obvious thing to add if people are interested and it hits the cloud native ecosystem And if I could add one more thing, um, I just wanted to kind of highlight that the sandbox process of getting into the sandbox has changed over the last year I think earlier we kind of had this tension between You know the projects that we led into the cncf had to meet a high bar in terms of Adoption and extensibility and security and stability and all of these things But at the same time we want to be a home for Likeless said innovation and collaboration for new projects for for To to provide kind of a neutral home for multiple companies and individuals to come together and be able to try new things And I think the old process was a little bit at odds with that So the the new sandbox project the new sandbox process has really allowed for kind of More more projects to get in and like like chris mentioned, I think we got 35 projects in this year Definitely, so I guess to kind of summarize that is you know, I don't think it's a no if you wanted to Try to submit a project that was only one person you'll get feedback eventually from the tocs though but I think in general the you know Discussion to be had each kind of project is looked at individually on on on its merits um other questions, so you know, I've been um, you know Meeting with uh, you know telcos fortunately or unfortunately, you know heavily for the last couple of months And there's kind of a lot of discussion around You know Kubernetes on the edge Kubernetes, you know, you know in smaller form factors You know, you know, what are people's thoughts on the toc? You know, are we gonna see? You know something like what happened with the linux kernel where over time just lots of different people stretching in interesting directions And moving into two new form factors and so on, you know, what what role do you think kubernetes will have? You know on the edge we have multiple Let's call them tiny distros k3s now and k0s. I I saw this this uh this week, uh Things like cube edge. I think microsoft announced something called acry recently. There's a bunch of these things popping up um All over does anyone kind of have thoughts on the role that you know kubernetes and we'll play in the edge and like what eventually the toc could kind of do to um, you know help fulfill kubernetes and cloud native on on the edge I would like to take Let's get justin and alayna and then anyone else can raise your hand Yeah, i'm right When I talk to people they all definitely want it. It's like there's huge demand for kubernetes on the edge and I think that Therefore, it's you know, it's inevitable that we will get lots of that What I like is that we've We've let in a bunch of quite experimental projects that are doing kubernetes on the edge In really different ways and I think there's because there's a lot to learn because I think I I think we don't know What the architecture of it's going to look like and I think It's great to experiment with these lots of different ways of doing it and I'm I'm really looking forward You know that shaking out as more and people actually get it into production because it's mostly experiments at the moment and Mostly little projects and getting to know That and exploring it with customers. So I think over the next year We should get a really good idea of the things that work and don't work Alayna Yeah from the end user perspective speaking All users are looking for they're looking for a universal way of delivering their applications to To different locations, whether it's a platform in your organization or something something on the edge And that's where Kubernetes on the edge really strikes as for implementation. So we have kubeh open your we have k3s Some challenges they share some challenges and some are unique to the project. So I'm just curious to To look at them and just you know, um, see um For the shared challenges What what can be what can be improved and for the new ones like for every new project It's always important to look and see like what what differs it from other Water edge projects that are already a part of cncf what unique it brings to the app system Anyone else have any or yeah If I could if I could say something this is a this is one of the I think this was the first This is the first prediction that in in in the in the you know, what's going to happen in 2021 I think all of us believe it holds tremendous potential. I wouldn't I'd love personally. I'd love to see a lot more Uh, uh, it's very experimental. I'd love to see a lot more projects I'd be you know as to see would always ask you what makes you different And what's unique but but a lot of these things you you don't really know until Until you start working on it and then engage the users Engage the community. So I definitely would engage with would encourage folks to To come up with with new distros on on your projects because this There are just so many ways to to do the same thing and it's just a standard. It's just not there yet awesome We have a few minutes left. I kind of the last question for us You know most of our end users, but you know other other books on the teaser can answer this, you know I've been working with a lot of different end users companies recently I helped bring an organization called the finops foundation the linux foundation, which is mostly dedicated to You know wrangling cloud financial management for some of us, you know who may work at a cloud provider You kind of have this Motion of cloud privileges like everything's like free pretty much But you know if you're working at maybe you know spotify or you know smaller company This stuff could get fairly, you know expensive You know quickly and the tools to kind of manage Built or predicting the cost of spending the service just seems not to be there Does anyone have any thoughts of you know how this space may evolve or what what could be done here? Because we don't have many projects at all in cnc I don't care about this problem, but I remember Dave or you know apples are fairly well off companies So maybe cost is less of a Concern Is a concern it is always a concern. I think no matter how big is your company Um, but yeah capacity planning is definitely is definitely challenging and To be honest I don't know like what are what are the tools out there that can solve everything like we are building something internally But I would be happy to see more tools Evolved in the space because it's a shared problem right no matter how big your company is Um, you need to spend your money wise and do the I do the planning carefully So yeah, I agree. That's I think that's uh, that's a good point Yeah, one small thing that I would add. Oh, yeah, sorry go ahead I was going to say quickly that for my experience one of the biggest problems that people face in this space is Not only the tooling, um, but actually tagging people's tagging people's resources to figure out how to do cost attribution And there's a couple of companies that are in this space right now And what i'm actually hopeful of is that we can develop a shared standard something something like cloud events But actually related to cost attribution And I I think that having that type of api will make it much easier to have tooling across platforms like kubernetes and other Cloud providers that can help us figure out, you know, first how to tag Everyone's resources because without having the resources tagged it's virtually impossible to make any progress here And then once that's in place, and I'm hopeful that can be an open standard Then I think there can be companies and there can be tooling on top that can help people actually with with cost cutting Yeah, it's a little bit of a perverse incentive because like the cloud provider is made, you know, you know What not care about the problem given right? Yeah, this is a this is a complex topic and Not not one that I really want to be recorded about but happy to talk with anyone about this at any time Dave had something to to stay here. Let's wrap it up. It's kind of the last Thought and comment before we we close the panel Sure, I guess the biggest thing i'll say is the same thing that matt just ended with that like there's always so much I'm gonna say recorded but i'm totally happy to talk to anyone about this And just like alina said spotify has built a bunch of internal tools for things like this Whether it's predicting or even just understanding and Labeling or cost attribution all of that stuff we've tried to open source some pieces of that But I would love to turn as much of that as possible into an open standard like matt was saying and like instead of each company building their own Thing that does 10 percent of the job poorly. Let us come together and build something that does much more of it better awesome Yeah, definitely. I think you know that could be an exciting area that people have projects in that space Please contribute them. We'd love to kind of hear from you. So with that, you know, wrapping up our 30 minutes or so Thank all of our panelists, you know, you know, folks are definitely, you know busy But everyone is very approachable. So feel free to, you know, jump in on to see meetings We nearly have, you know, you know 70 to sometimes even 100 people on these things So please jump on them and submit any projects you have. We're happy to help you. So thank you everyone for taking the time You know, con's been wild and uh, please, you know, follow us on on slack twitter and whatever communication medium for so Thank you all. All right. Take care