 In 2021, Nigerians heard various cries and calls for restructuring. Many of those who championed this cause asked for the devolution of powers, physical federalism, the creation of additional states, the establishment of state police and local government autonomy. Many even said the worsening in security crisis in the country expressed the urgent need for restructuring. The President, Mohamed Abouhari, in June 2021 promised that there was nothing to restructure, saying that those making these calls were naive. These calls are still on, even in 2022, as Shagun Shomumi, a spokesperson of the Atikwa Rubaka 2019 presidential campaign, has called on the federal government to restructure Nigeria as the nation moves into the new year 2022. Shomumi accuses governors of stealing from their states. However, the question is, how ready are we to restructure the country because we still have states that are asking for more money from the federal government, there are states who are unable to pay salaries, but are we willing and ready to get back to the issue of restructuring? Joining us to discuss this is our Chike Ture, he is a political analyst. We have Professor Eyo Itamiyung and a politician and academia, Olawale Okuni, Director-General of Nigeria Intervention Movement. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. My pleasure to be with you, good evening Nigeria. Alright, I'm going to start with you Okuni, it's very interesting that every time we're close to election season, we hear people talk about issues of restructuring, we have to restructure Nigeria, but then the moment those people get into government, that call totally disappears. Under the Bahá'í administration, the president had said that there was nothing to restructure and the calls were naive, but then we saw the APC put together a committee on restructuring, that paper that was gotten at the end of the day is gathering dust somewhere. So again, do we really believe in restructuring or are we just paying lip service to it and why? Well, thank you for inviting me, we in our movement believe in restructuring, we have done researches, we have done national consultation, we have done engagement, we have done interface with the peoples of the country, from chief and now over to now, they have seen the need for us to re-jig what we have as Nigeria, to re-engineer our structure, to re-systemise, to re-systemise our policy, because in any case what we continue to have in Nigeria is anarchy, instability, insecurity, etc., and they speak to the fact that something has to be done to the constitutional structure of Nigeria. First and foremost, what you have now that is causing problems, is a military decree that was foisted on Nigerian people, and that can never give you democracy, because democracy itself must be owned by the people. So what you have today as military decree 24, 1999, we never give you democracy, and we never give you a country that is still so, therefore, we need to restructure. Yes, Gerard Momo Diwari worked with us at some point, under the leadership of Chief Tony and now of Pleasant Memory. I am up till now through national conference organisation, Spokesperson, and we had a national conference between the 2005 and 2007, and we presented to the Nigerian states a constitution of the people that can make us to have stability and security, etc. What became of that paper? What became of that presentation? Oh yes, because it was rejected by the ruling class, the people in government. Gerard Momo Diwari was in government then. Gerard Momo Diwari is so naive, or I don't know what has come over him, because he was with us in that struggle, which was against a dictatorial state, and then we agreed, even with three or fours and even outside, that he was going to implement whatever he gets to power. And thus, some element came around him today, hijacked the presidency, either to the security forces or civil service, and then made that promise to be ineffectual. Therefore, continue to have what we have today as insecurity, instability, etc., etc. Nigeria, I want to tell you that Nigeria is an amagam of different nationalities, different backgrounds, different histories, different languages, and that is bound to create what you call conflict, and in conflict resolution, you must bring them together for them to agree and form a consensus. So what we are saying by saying that with three structuring is to say we need a constitutional consensus on the structure of Nigeria, that the peoples of Nigeria, about 200 nationalities as research by us, must sit together to build a grand consensus on how they want to co-exist peacefully. After that, government that is elected pays on black consensus will run government, because government itself doesn't have the power when it comes to the principle of constitutional making. To impose a constitution, I laugh when I say constitutional amendment, it is not, well, you can't amend a military decree and turn it to a peoples constitution, that's the point we are making. When we are talking about constitutional re-systematization of the structure of Nigeria, it's issues that are very deep, and therefore that is why we have not been able to have security, stability. I will come back to you, let's just hold that, put a plug there. Coming to you, Professor, as someone who has run within the circles of politicians and government, you would be in a great position to help us understand why the word restructuring is thrown around more often than sat down to be talked about. Again, we have had constitutional conferences, we have had the national confab under the good luck administration, like I mentioned, the APC had a restructuring committee that paper is also gathering dust somewhere. He said that the presidency is being misled, but what do you think is at the core of this and why we are still here having this same conversation year in, year out? Yes, Professor. Can I hear you? Yes, can you hear me? Hello? Yes, Professor, can you hear me? I think that we lost that connection. Okay, let me come back to you, Mr. Okuni. I remember that when we had the national confab, the APC government was not part of that national confab at the time, and that is one of the reasons they gave us for not wanting to use anything or even implement that document. Now, we have also had so many of these conferences, and you talked about the issue of, you know, I'm going to cop my tongue, with systemisation of the constitution, being that what we have now is not necessarily a document that was put together by the people, but then we have also had the national assembly go around in different regions when they said they wanted to amend the constitution, asking for imputes, but then when it came down to it, we didn't really see the voices of the people in that constitutional amendment. So these questions, of course, the people that are on the floor of the national assembly and whose interests these people may be representing. So again, is the power with the people, or is the power with the politicians? Well, for now, the power of governance is with the politicians. They have ejected it, and they will never give the people, except the people for city. If you look at section 8 and section 9 of the military decree called Nigerian constitution, you will find out that there is no way for the sovereign power of the people. There is no place, no provision throughout the Nigerian constitution, no portion, no provision for the people to make decisions on their country, on, like, Britain, where you are present, you are the kind of the people who go to do referendum. They can do plebiscites. That is not, cannot be called a constitution. That is a military decree, first set by the military at their exit in 1999. Nobody contributed to that, and to that extent, you have problem, and so the power of the people have been hijacked by the government and by politicians, so to say, and they will resist giving it back. Therefore, the Nigerian peoples, because they are not one, must begin to come together and build consensus to begin to take power back to the citizens in such a way that the people can have power again. All their powers by, all the powers of the people and citizens have been taken by the Nigerian constitution, which is concerned in 1999, and they have not done anything about it. The first thing to do in the Nigerian, in the Nigerian constitution, all the palliative and cosmetics that have been done, where the electoral fund is zero, is for the parliament. So you're saying that the waste of taxpayers' money is to do all of these theatrics, and you're saying that the score is zero. The Nigerian constitution meant in such a way that the powers of the people can be given back to the people to be able to give unto themselves a country of their own, through a constituent assembly, or what the people of sovereign nationality want to constitute. An assembly of the people, where representative are elected, and then to give unto themselves a constitution of Nigerian people. If they want to decide on resource control, so be it. If they want to decide on unity, so be it. But the powers of the people must first and foremost be restored. And that has been taken by section 8 and section 9 of the 1999 constitution. Not a very, you know, good update there. But let me, a Chiquitrude has just joined us, and I want to pose the next question to him. Mr. Chude, Mr. Kuni is saying here that the power of the people have been taken. In other words, we have been restricted. But the issue of state policing is of most importance to me. Now, under the issue of restructuring, we've talked about state policing. We've talked about, you know, fairness and fair playing ground for ethnic nationalities. And we've also seen a rise in these non-state actors as a result of the fact that certain people in certain parts of the country feel that they have been shown the short end of the stick. And so we've seen the likes of Sunday, Guwahua and Canary. You know, all of these people agitating for their regions in the country which has also not necessarily ended well. What can restructuring do in dealing with these issues? But again, how do we even start dealing with this when, according to our first guests, we're being restricted and we do not have any powers? Well, the fact that people are talking about a possible failure of natural state and the fact that there is a general agreement that the state has not worked. And the fact that people, it has proven that people are now more aware to their ethnic enclaves than to the nation is the biggest indicator or indicators that all is not well in the country. And that something needs to be done. And there is no doubt that people do not feel a sense of nationhood, a sense of pride in Nigeria as a federation. And that's why they talk about, and Nigeria is coming together to talk about the basis for existing as a nation, as more people under a federal constitution has been on the increase for a very, very long time. And I think it is clear that whether we like it or not sooner rather than later, that is going to happen, that dialogue will take place because the country cannot move forward. If you do not have, if you have not found the consensus about moving forward, and then if we have not found the consensus about what we need, the essential ingredients that are needed to be able to move the country forward. So that is very tricky. But regardless of that, you said that is what we, even there is such an expression that says that you make the best out of the bad situation. Yes, we cannot find, and under the present circumstances, we cannot get the ideal situation that we want. That ideal situation can only happen when Nigeria sit down to talk. And even this issue of talk may not necessarily be among the various ethnic groups in this country because you have ethnic groups. But not everybody might even want to have this discussion on the basis of ethnic groups. Not everybody believes that ethnic groups, for instance, show from the premise in terms of the people that are going to get engaged in the discussion. So there are also social groups, there are also professional groups. All of them must also be involved even in the process of talking. You understand what you are talking about, the worker. You know, under the ages of the Nigerian Labour Congress, you know, Congress, you know, Nigerian Medical Association and all of that. All of these organizations are more of the centipede forces, rather than the centrifugal forces. The centrifugal forces are the ethnic nationalities. You know, because they are the ones that are pulling at the same. You know, if the country does not work, then they don't want to be part of it. But then for national groups, professional groups, you have professional groups that are made up of Nigerians from the previous ethnic groups. Also, who are also trying to, you know, form support for budgets towards the centre. So all of these groups, all of these ethnic groupings must be involved in that discussion on how to move the country forward. But what must happen to bring everybody to that unified table? What must happen? Because it looks like... Sorry? So yeah, we all understand that they all must come to the table. But what must happen for that unifying conversation to happen? Because it seems that, like everybody is looking at it from a different prism, and it makes it difficult to have that conversation as a whole. Well, you know, they have always said, there's always been this thing that those who make peaceful change, a person who would make violent change, you know, we have seen some elements of violence in the polity because of the injustice within the system. Because of the exclusionary politics that is going on in this country. You know, so that has spread violence, you know, at an unmitigated level. And for us to be able to avoid this, we must stop. Now, what you have said is very clear. And it is important, how do we bring this about? Now, we must also realise that there's a ruling class in this country. A ruling class that is benefiting from the malays that Nigerians are facing. A ruling class that is benefiting, profiting from the contradictions that are going on in this country. And this ruling class, if not a class, you know, that is a class that pervades the nooks and crannies of this country. You have them from the north, you have them from the south. You know, so this ruling class must be restored. And perhaps it is the level of pressure that will bring to bear on that. That will make them face the inevitable conclusion that they possess must help in bringing about that process or change. In bringing about that discussion that we have to take place. And I'm talking about members of National Assembly and the State Health Council of Assembly. They support regardless of the talk about building a different country based on consensus among the Nigerians. But the reality is that they are already enjoying the trappings of office. And they are not going to sit back, you know, and start the process that will liquidate those things that they have been getting from the system. So there must be some level of force that Nigerians themselves must be able to bring to bear. You know, until there is a general acknowledgement that there is no other way we can do things in this country except to get to the level of bringing Nigerians to talk. So I guess that that pressure must continue until it gets to that realization that there is no other way we can get this thing done. We have to put the process in place for us to actually begin the process of discussing on what that says. All right. I think we have Professor Airet and Yong back. Let me pose this question to you, Professor. There are those who think that Nigeria is already on the precipice, with the kidnappings, the killings, all the things that are happening. But then the people who are also saying this are wondering can restructuring, you know, pivot Nigeria away from the problems that is facing. Can it solve all our hydro-headed challenges as we speak? No. Look, there is no... Sorry. The question is for the professor. I'm sorry. The question is for the professor. Professor Airet? Yes. Professor, can you hear me? You need to unmute yourself so we can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Well, yes, I've done that. I think that you have your television on because we're getting a feedback. The issue is... Apologies. I think that we're having feedback from the professor. You need to turn off your TV so that we can hear you and not have that feedback. Quickly. I think we want to take your thoughts before we wrap this up. All right. One minute. Okay. Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can. Go ahead now. Okay. The issue is what we talk about a democracy, when a democratic system, that democracy is not being brought down to the people properly. So when you don't bring governance system down to the people, you create unnecessary situations that bring about violence and all kinds of crimes and so on that we're experiencing today. The issue of restructuring is overdue. You know, and we've been talking about it some years back. There was a national conference on this issue, I think in 2014. There was an agreement between the people on what to do. When APC came into power, a committee was set up on restructuring the met and submitted a report. It's not being implemented. Recently, the National Assembly talked about constitutional review, including the issue of state creation and other aspects of restructuring. But recently they come up to say they've given up on the issue of state creation and so on. The problem is there are people elected into offices that are supposed to represent the constitution. Everybody cannot be in that office. But once they're put there into office, they're stuck in a wheelchair. They don't come back home to relate with their people. And then when the people sit up and make up their minds that this is what they want, this is what they think would be good for them, they're not part of it. And like the last restructuring or the last state creation thing that was being carried out, we're required to have members of the National Assembly sign whatever position paper the people developed. But majority of them didn't want to sign. The situation in our country is that if you're a member of House of Rest, you want to move from there to Senate, you want to move from there to being a minister, you want to move from there to being a governor, the next thing you want to be president and so on. People want to remain in power forever. So if you're a senator and they tell you to sign a bill or a paper that will divide your state, you're already preparing to rule over a larger state, you won't sign. And that's what people experience. And at the end of the day, the thing has not come to pass. But what the solution should be is a referendum carried across the state, carried across the country. But that was done. We had something similar happen recently, Professor. In 2021, we had members of the National Assembly go to their constituents, but nothing really came out of it. So we keep asking and pushing for these referendum. They will come to their constituents, but they will not agree because it affects their political interest. The decision of the people is not in consonance with their political interest and they reject it. That's the issue. But if you come down now with a referendum proposal to actually pick the minds of the people, they will not be able to stop it. But when you depend on them to sign, to agree, to sign the document before submission, before it makes it to the National Assembly, they will not do that because they are divided after the constituencies where they want the rule power up. Do we see this referendum happening any time soon? Because look, we are in campaign season and 2023 is of course the election season. How do we also force the hands of these people? Because Mr O'Connor said that our hands are tied. The power is not resting with us as it should be under a democracy. He's saying the power now rests with the politicians because they call all the shots. So where does that leave us? Everybody is focused on the elections now, so nothing like that can happen again soon. Wow. It cannot happen any time soon because... So what is the average voter, what is the average voter voting for if his voice is somewhat silenced or there's a plaster put over his lip? Well, you know, with the level of poverty in the land, people who make all these strange monies buy votes. They buy votes and there is no way of stopping them. Well, it's really sad. And on that really gloomy note, I want to say thank you to all our guest, Achike Chure. Ola Kuni. I beg your pardon. Ola Wale, thank you very much for joining us. And Professor Eyo Item Young for being part of this conversation. We appreciate it. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a quick break to find out what Nigerians have to say about restructuring in the country and of course I will be saying my goodbyes right after it. Restructuring of the mind rather than restructuring the physical facilities that we have. We should love ourselves and that is what is important. If we love ourselves and do things judiciously, do things in the way that is expected for the benefit of all, not overtaking one another in a rush to become important, in a rush to become rich, then the benefit of what is given to us by the Almighty God will be seen and shared by all. Nigerians need dialogue within ourselves. Everybody must understand that this thing cannot work. We must be sincere with ourselves. We are not going anywhere. We are not united. A lot of things happening, things is not working. And I can assure you that it will not work because of the way our government, the system of the government, the system of the government has enslaved and corrupt our leaders. Definitely now. It seems not the right for our country at all. So a really deep, deep, deep down restructuring. Only God can save us really. Because I don't believe in this politicians 2023. There's no headway. We need restructuring. Yes, every sector of the economy needs, in fact, is in urgent need of restructuring. Especially the business sector, even the educational sector, the agricultural sector, all the sectors are in need of restructuring. So I think it's high time. There's no point painting it. Let's call it spade is spade. And just like the last man said, let's call it spade is spade. It's time for us to sit at the table and say what we want to move our country forward. My name is Mary Annick and welcoming you to the new year all through the week. We will be taking a look at 2021 and all the front burner issues that we can still talk about this year because the truth is these matters cannot be left on set. My name is Mary Annick and I'll see you tomorrow at 7 p.m. on Plus Politics. Have a good evening.