 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're hailing from welcome to another episode of red hat enterprise Linux presents today We're talking about expanded rail coverage in the developer program, which is kind of a hot topic right now. So Mr. McBrien This is your show you brought on a special guest. Please share with us what we're doing here You're muted too by the way I Let me fix that first of all. Yeah, I do have a special guest. Hey Mr. Brian Gallagher who's the principal product manager for red hat enterprise Linux developer experience Brian welcome. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what it is you do and? sure I I work for the red hat enterprise Linux business unit and As you said my title is experience product manager and that what that means is I look at things from the customer perspective and try to ensure that Rail customers have a good experience My focus is developers and that includes working with the developer subscriptions Working with the developer program as well as providing developer content Within rel itself. So I work with the engineering teams that develop the runtime languages the compilers the databases web servers and Do the planning for all the releases and then assist marketing when we Make the new content available. So anything that's kind of related to a developer is something that I'm involved with Yeah, and our very first episode of the show was with gunner And one of the topics that we did for our technical demo was working with application streams And that is that is your jam as well Right application streams is the method we use to deliver developer content within rel So we make different versions of all the compilers runtime languages and databases available So that developers can select the the most appropriate one for their particular application So if it's an application that has a very long life, you know full ten years of rel You want to use a different version maybe of a database for runtime language Then if you're developing a new application that has a very short life And you want to use the latest and take advantage of all the latest features So application streams is how we make the the different versions of content available Um, but today we talked a little bit earlier in the week We wanted to talk about the expanded rel coverage in the developer subscription So last week there was a blog announcement that came out and let me preface this discussion by saying that If you go out to the developer frequently asked questions currently or you take a look at the red hat end user license Agreement at this point. You won't see a lot of the things that we talked about in that blog post, right? So the blog post was our intention for this program and we're still working through a lot of the stuff on the back end like the blog post talked about entitling 16 systems and so what does that mean what what type of system and You know our attention is that you can Use any type of physical or virtual node But we have to get that through legal and what's the legal description look like and then update the License agreement and update all the documentation. So before we start this discussion I just want to remind everyone that until those public-facing documents have been updated that what we're talking about here is our intent and Where we would like to see this go until those are Updated it's not really real, right? It'll be really real when We have all the programmatic stuff completed and through So right that's that's correct And as we said in the announcement February 1st is our target date for having all this complete And we're still we're still driving towards February 1st to have all the the T's and C's ready to go For the developer agreement developer subscriptions Also, so with that in mind Brian what was announced last week in this blog announcement? Okay, so we announced two things First we have a Red Hat developer program. That's easily Reachable through developers dot red hat dot com. That's our developer website if you go there click on Linux You'll get all the information to join our developer program We have that program available to encourage Developers Whether you work individually whether you work as part of an organization whether you're a student However, you know, whatever your your reason for for wanting to to learn about Linux and develop Applications is we make a developer subscription available so you can learn how to use rel and To assist you as you develop your your rel based applications So that's available on developers dot red hat dot com. It's been there for I think almost five years now So we've had it available now We announced last week some major changes to that program up until this point the rel the free rel subscription that's available as part of the program was restricted to Development use cases only and we're actually extending that now so that a developer who joins a developer program and uses the free subscription can not only use it for developing on his or her laptop or You know virtual machine, but can actually do Integration testing and then actually go to a small deployment of up to 16 Physical or virtual nodes and the reason we're doing that is to encourage developers to develop on rel To stay on rel and to start using rel with their As they go into production. So we like to talk about the next Facebook somebody in their dorm room is developing the the the next new Social media application We don't want them to have to stop after they build the app before they start deploying it So we we we support Developers as they go into their testing and and through their initial production then when they scale beyond 16 instances at that point You know support becomes important and they really should look at to at the various rel subscriptions We have that provide various levels of support. So that's the change in the developer program We're extending it beyond just an initial system for doing development to up to 16 instances that Allow developers to develop tests do their integration and then go into their initial production testing So just to recap Prior to the change being announced, I think we were limited to one Dual socket system and then you could run some virtual machines They were in pedal raw gas on that one system And now what we're saying is you'll get 16 entitlements to use and you can choose Any combination of physical or virtual systems to deploy those 16 entitlements on that's correct. It's it's 16 physical or virtual modes. It's not tied in any way To a particular CPU size or number of cores It's it's It's open and available for for any physical or virtual mode up to 16 and that's a little bit different than commercial rel entitlements as well because in You know paid for rel subscriptions You're counted every subscription For each dual socket pair or each socket pair, I guess not dual socket pair So if you had an eight socket system That would take four Rel entitlements to get entitled now We're saying in developer subscription is that same eight socket system in developer subscription would take one Entitlement to write right we sell rel in different ways for Different size systems and different use cases whether they be for a large number of virtual machines or or smaller machines or big Powerful machines, but what we wanted to do with a developer program is just make it as easy as possible We don't want a developer to have to worry about The number of sockets in their machine or worry about how they're deploying virtual machines because we know developers So matter what their platform is whether they're developing natively on physical hardware, you know Installing rel or whether they're running in a virtual machine on a Mac or Windows or or on a larger system We don't want them to have to worry about counting sockets and counting VMs and dealing with with red hat entitlements The whole point is to make it easy You go you download the subscription and then you install and Simple registration and you're up and running. You're just limited to 16 Right. It's also important important to to to mention that our developer subscriptions are for individual developers They are not for companies or corporations individual developer now that developer could be in a corporation it You could be a developer that works for a very big company and you just want to learn rel at home in the evening on the weekends That's perfectly fine. That's perfectly legitimate, but this This subscription is not for a corporation The second part of the announcement that we made last week is and that's what we call the developer for teams subscription This is a little different in its terms and conditions It's still restricted to developers only and still has the various socket and virtual machine limitations that that rail has But it's essentially a tiered offering by that I mean that a organization large company has access to up to 25,000 entitlements 25,000 physical or virtual nodes that can run in their organization at at no charge at no cost and then we offer support either Today support or four-hour support depending on how critical it is to the organization And those are layered on top of the team subscription and that subscription is available for an organization An enterprise big company And it's only available through the red hat sales Motion so so if you should contact your red hat sales representative to to obtain that that subscription and Because no two organizations are the same some are big some are small some have business units And we're divided in different ways some have developer organizations Some have many developer organizations the red hat Sales team will work with you to properly size it to and configure it So that it makes sense for your for your organization Again, you get systems for development at no cost You can add support to it and you get access to everything that's available in our developer program and that includes all the All the blogs all the articles all the help guides Videos everything we make available as part of the developer program and there's quite a bit We've been doing it for five years. We accumulated quite a bit We have lots of helpful articles on developing CC plus plus applications or you have using the runtime languages Are picking the latest version of Python? That's one of our most popular articles Right is is selecting the right version of Python for your for your project depending on whether you're Migrating from an older version of a legacy app or developing a newer app So those are the two things we announced the individual and the team subscription I just wanted to get a clarification real quick. So for the individual developer subscription We said you can use it for development testing QA and even Production, but it's all self-support correct for developer for teams Are they also allowed to use across their organization in any environment or is it limited to just have or just have in QA It's limited to To dev and test Okay, right now. We have other subscriptions and different support offerings that can take you all the way through You know if it's CI CD pipeline We can take you all the way from the initial developer Writing the code right up to pushing into production, but you just can't do it with this subscription Well, the account team will put up a nice set of Subscriptions together to you know based on your organization Great Like I said, every organization is different. It's hard to say Okay, here's this one subscription that works with you know a service provider an auto manufacturer a Financial institution everybody's different. So I think we have a good flexible Solution that can be tailored to anybody's developer environment awesome Sure, I saw that we were getting some traffic in chat Should we take a quick break and I mean I've got it covered to be honest with you So There is one question about getting rail on digital ocean and line node I mean, I don't know how that whole process works But I'm pretty sure digital ocean and line would have to ask us or we have to ask them Put rail as an available OS on their clouds It depends right so if they allow you to make your own instances You could make your own instances and entitle them with Subscriptions from red hat we call that bring your own subscription or be yos And we do that today with like you can make an Amazon amy using something like image builder or Amazon tools and Entitled using your regular red hat subscriptions If you're talking about putting it in the marketplace at those cloud providers We have a partnership program for cloud providers called the certified cloud provider What CCSB certified cloud Service provider Yeah, CCSB program and so digital ocean or line. Oh, it would have to be members of that program in order to get Essentially they they build their image There's some testing tools that red hat provides to just make sure that it looks sane and then they can offer it for sale in the marketplace so Depending on which we want to go to the yos you can do it today using your red hat subscriptions Marketplace the cloud provider needs to participate in this certified cloud service provider Program that right now first, right? Cool that I think is the only question that I can't answer So then there's no Well, I will point out there's no subscription fee for developers dot red hat comm right like you get that account for free Right, that's it, right like yes, you get it for free But it is for an individual and the individual signs or agrees to the terms of conditions and is therefore responsible Yeah, individual base, right The brand a couple years ago. I was talking with a co-worker at red hat and we were talking about CentOS usage and He was telling me that he uses CentOS for his wife's business mail server And I said well, what about something like developer program and he said, oh, no developer program says it has to be for in development This is my wife's business mail server. So technically it's production Would that use case now be covered under the expanded developer program? Yes, it would Yes, it would and the reason we we include things like mail servers and You know initial production is because it's very hard for a Developer an individual a small team. We use the expression two guys and a dog in a basement, right that that's Starting there developing their application starting their business We don't want that type of organization to have to worry about oh geez Is this a production case is my mail server production and my developer my development? You know the runtime languages and the VM for for testing is that covered or whatever We just want to be very very simple, you know up to 16 instances go for it. It's you know it's yours great and then You know the intention is that at some point the same two dogs or sorry two guys and a dog in a basement Guess to the point where they're now no longer two guys a dog in a basement, right? It's like a you know eight person they have a office and You know now as your footprint is growing larger you can either do continued self-support that you purchase from Red Hat or You make the decision to buy entitlements from Red Hat that includes some level of support so that you don't have to bring All your own expertise every time That's right Yeah, at some point things get critical you have a business You have a lot of people financially relying on things and you really don't want it to be down Because of you know for any reason Whether it be security patches or or just simple misconfiguration as you scale out your systems or something So having support and having a Red Hat support team available at that point is you know very useful So we want to make it easy at when you reach the point where okay or a little beyond You know two guys in a dog now we're 20 guys in an office You know we can easily move to support and subscriptions at that point And so even though the developer subscriptions come as self-support Do they do people who use them get additional resources like Red Hat customer portal knowledge base or Red Hat insights Yes, they do They it the developer subscription does come with with insights It is available if you Want to use our satellite Server obviously that's a that cost but you can use those subscriptions with our with our satellite server to make system management easy it comes with Web console image builder a lot of a lot of the tools That that Red Hat provides for system management. So that's all that's all included in the subscription Great. So earlier when I was telling you about my friend who has what's running his wife helps over on sento us If he got a new developer subscription and decided that he wanted to move that to row What would be your recommendation for how he would do? Okay, well, he would sign up through the developer program And I'm sure he would find lots of valuable content there He would also have access to all our documentation Which would allow him to you know, which would give him You know instructions on how to set up the server. He can also ask questions online Other experts can can help him. There's probably enough information there already to do it So, yeah, we he has access to our our customer portal. He has access to our developer program There's lots of stuff there to help them do it. And of course he gets all the updates. He gets all the rail updates. So You know, his his mail server will be secure. Yeah, right So would he have to install a new box and like move all his data over to it? Or can he take his existing sento s box and Transform up It's it's up to him You know, would you if he wants to start clean, you know, I was perfectly able to do that We also have Sentos to rail conversion software that's available that he can he can download So he doesn't have to update any databases or configuration rules or things that he might have available Yeah, and convert to rail is offered through the evil repository That's the tool that will convert from sent to rail or other Linux flavors like Some of the other downstream builds can be converted as well if you wanted to standardize your environmental rail, but So the tool is available through the evil repo There's also a knowledge-based article that you can download it directly from that the developers as they generate tools they they update it with places and then you can convert from Sentos Linux 7 to rel 7 sento s Linux 6 to rel 6 although Yeah, and then there's you can also now convert from sento s Linux 8 to rel 8 and that's all about in place configurations in place Is a fairly smooth transition Yeah, I just posted a link to the blog post from last summer talking about convert to rail Yeah, and Brian Smith is a technical account manager at Red Hat In the red hat enterprise Linux YouTube channel He did a walkthrough of converting sento s Linux 7 to rel 7 As a YouTube video walkthrough Cool. I'll try and find that. So there's a question Do you have to strip everything on top of the OS before you move from sentos 8 to rel 8 before you migrate? Or can you just do it with all your applications and fun bits in place as it is? so You should be able to do it in place with all your fun bits in place so if for example your Sentos Linux system was subscribed to the EPO repository and you had installed a bunch of stuff from EPOL When you do the the convert It's still going to have the EPOL repo software installed and still going to be able to pull the back of this from EPOL So that would all be kind of in place if you're doing You know you did build a bunch of stuff from source and did source based installs That's a little bit more questionable. It would likely be okay but that's one where it's like Even slight changes and right libraries and other stuff can can potentially cause problems but if you're doing packages and it's from repositories is a repository stay in place and You'll be able to use them like you would did before Well, you can't it can you use you can't use convert to rel to upgrade from like seven to eight, right? Like you have to do Seven to seven eight to eight Yes from like six to seven. I'm sure I'm assuming right. That's correct. However We do offer an upgrade path from seven to eight So you could do something really crazy No, we're not really that crazy of converting from sent to us Linux seven to Ralph seven and then using our application called leap to go from rel seven to And that is also an in-place upgrade that one's a little bit more Effort right especially if you're using a bunch of third-party stuff because you want to make sure your third-party stuff also works on the new version of rel But yeah, but that is definitely a method to get you upgraded Sent to us Linux conversion to rel and then a rel in place upgrade to another version of rel As as the question asker mentions he says I would rather do it fresh anyway, so thank you though. I Dropped the link to the blog So yeah, I can't blame anybody for wanting to do a fresh install as opposed to upgrading in place, you know, there's benefits and you know negatives to both So yeah, if you don't upgrade in place you got to bring in your applications if you upgrade in place Yeah, especially if you're a developer. Yeah, yeah, you're a developer you find yourself starting fresh often. Yeah right well Brian do you have any additional guidance or directions on Anything people should know about the developer sub or the new changes that we're proposing to it Um, that's so the important thing as you mentioned Earlier Scott is that it's February 1st is when all this takes effect. I do encourage people though Right away to go to developers that rain hat calm if you're not familiar with the site and take a look There's a lot of open shift content. There's ansible Content there's this aware content if you click on Linux across the top of the home page It will take you right into the the developer program And you can you can see some of the things that we make available Including the ability to download the developer version of of route And as we said, it will be the old terms up until the first and then the new terms will be available But take a look. I think there's there's a lot of valuable valuable content there so I encourage you to go take a look and if you're a Rel customer today, I encourage you to talk to your account team about the team subscription and some of the options that That will be available again February 1st and and into the spring when we make some more of these new developer offerings available and then Our account team can help you Optimize the number of subscriptions that you have and the type of subscriptions that you have to meet your business needs Thanks, Brian So at this point, I'm going to transition to just doing a walkthrough of registration and what that looks like on the other side You're welcome to hang out and and give me some some guidance if you would like to or If you have other more important things to do that, it's also cool to bounce out if you would like Okay, I'll say around for a bit. Okay. Good. Good to keep me honest. Yeah, I Lie a lot. You do not All right, so I Wanted to first share the Developer program registration page. So if you go to developers.redhat.com slash register That'll take you to the registration link and it's a relatively short form Where you define what your red hat login is or if you already have one you just put it in And then you fill in some additional details about the registration And and that's it Yeah so After this every year you will need to come back and kind of re-up and when you re-up it asks you for your Red hat account and I believe your email and that's that's your way out. So it's pretty frictionless to To get registered and get access to this to the subscription Once that's done It'll show up over in your red hat subscription Portal so if you go to access to red hat comm and you log in with that Red hat comm credential that you put into the registration form You'll see the red hat developer subscription show up in your Subscriptions nice. So here I actually have a mix of Production subscriptions that that I purchased and then Because one of the users in my organization actually two of the users in my organization have registered for developer subscription That shows up in my subscription list And if you click into it It'll give you a little bit more details on what's included in that subscription And after registration, it's pretty quick to show up in your account It's I think less than 30 minutes to to get it reflected in your Access to red hat that comes off. All right So once you've clicked on the developer subscription It'll tell you a little bit about it So for example, it is a self-support subscription meaning that you can't call red hat or open support cases But you do get all of the other stuff that comes with a real subscription like Knowledge base access to the customer portal subscription watch insights JP data is asking is this the same account you would use to download images from registry that red hat that I owe and I Believe so I think it's the same one. It can be it could also be different like you could set that up as a different one as well so I will warn you that user management for red hat comm is Can be challenging. Hmm. So Essentially, you can have one instance of a username and That one instance can either be its own organization and its own subscriptions or That one instance can belong to a larger organization Where that's one of several users that can belong to that other organization You can request that red hat include your credential in an organization. However Let me say this again. However You can never get it back out of that organization So if this is your independent user account and you want to keep it independent at some point in the future Then you need to keep it independent at all times and not blended into an organization Because the second you blended in an organization It can never be unblended out of that organization made independent again, right? So So here a couple of the users in this organization registered their Username with the developer subscription that has now shown up for the organization and You can see that well, we talked about the self support Down in the entitlement quantity because I have two of them That's why it's showing up as 32 subscriptions available normally for an independent user. This would be 16 And it says right here one subscription provides 16 The other is capacity per subscription. So we talked earlier about how the intent is that Developers shouldn't be limited by the size of their hardware or the type of their vehicle machines They might be using it should just be want one subscription per one instance or box and So that's what we're seeing here. There is a capacity limit that's set of 128 sockets per box, but that that's just kind of like a It is a field that's required for subscriptions right unreasonable number thinking that no one would get there So until they do of course until they do. Yeah, right and then if you look at the provided content And this is the place where I think it's it's The developer subscription is really interesting. So in order to provide Pretty much anything you would want or need as a developer We pretty much provide everything as part of the developer subscription The exception to that is satellite because that requires Management smart management entitlements as well. So it's in addition to a subscription but You know, so we offer things like the Red Hat Enterprise Linux server which includes all versions right six seven and eight and Then we also have the The update Well, that's for SAP server solutions. I was looking for EOS. Oh Extended It's in here. Yeah, it's definitely in there It might be in shops because of the short title. Yeah, it looks like that. That's it. Yeah, so Red Hat Enterprise Linux extended update support so that you can actually tie your system to a specific Extended update support release of rel for relate. That's every even numbered release So a to is a us release a force and us release and even though a new version of rel a has come out we backport the important and Critical security rata into that older dot release that we maintain for up to two years Also, we have things like the high availability product which is Pacemaker and core sync to do your high availability failover and service definitions What else resilient storage is GFS so that's your clustered storage file system Scalable file system. This is for rel seven and earlier. That's I'm sorry rel six I think is the only one that uses that now. That's for XFS support and Rel eight uses XFS natively So and then down here for SAP. So if you're an SAP developer, we also offer you rel for SAP Which is kind of like extended update support where you can stay on a specific Dot release of rel for a longer And it goes beyond the extended update support But the intention is that you would run SAP on top of that because you're running SAP is why you need that longer life span of the Individual update releases of rel So there there is no SAP included in this one. It is simply operating system with extended update support so that you could Get SAP from SAP and run it on top of it. Nice So, yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff here the code ready builder. So that's a whole bunch of development tools the container development kit Ansible engine which is automation Supported ansible automation So so yeah, lots and lots of stuff many options. Yes All right, so I see that JP data has a question. Oh, yes, it's a long one Do you want me to read it out or yeah? That's cool. Okay In rel seven it was easy to find packages in rel eight you have to start You have started to hide breakout package in a bunch of different repos These are called app streams What was the rationale in doing it that way? What was easy to find in rel seven is more difficult in rel eight and support is confused where things are also Would be nice if there was a way to search repos that are not enabled on the system So you know where to go and what to enable so that you can get packages you need Like a super duper index would work So so I actually would turn that around and say that in rel eight we drastically simplified the The Experience for repositories so in rel seven and earlier we had rel server repository that's rel desktop repository. We had a rel workstation repository. We had Extras repository. We had supplementary repository and then there was like all the add-ons like HA Scalable file system like all the other stuff each one of those had their own separate repository So in rel eight world, we have two repositories for all rel systems We have base OS repository an upstream repository and base OS repository provides essentially the minimal operating system for rel and then Appstream repository provides a lot of the add-on stuff plus all of the actual application stream modular content for rel eight so in order to get an analogous rel eight system compared to rel seven you enable the base OS and the Appstream repositories and that's it. Everything else is in those two Instead of rel seven where it was like rel seven server plus supplementary plus extras Now there are still a lot of repositories available for rel eight. So for example the Availability add-on is a separate repository the ansible engine Ansible 29 is a separate repository So if you want those additional products that sit on top of rel You will likely have to enable additional repositories to get them right that said Two weeks ago. We had rich to reel on and we talked some about subscription management and One of the things that we talked about in that show was that you can define activation keys to register your systems and As part of that activation key you can identify what repos should be subscribed on that system So if your standard build was base OS Appstream Ansible and I don't know HA add-on In your activation key you could identify that Those are the repositories the system should be subscribed to and then whenever you register with that activation key That system automatically gets configured with those red hat repositories So there are some ways that you can approach That it's a little bit different You may notice that like all the source code repositories and all the What sorry not the source code the debug repositories are all separate on rel 8 and that might be where Some of the there's so many repositories stuff might be coming from So I'm trying to get some clarification what JP Day means by quote hiding Like V8 develop. He said V8 develop is hiding. No JS and DevToolset 10 has not even called that anymore. Oh You have to go search to find things. Yes, that's To enable an app stream you kind of have to know which app string you're enabling which is kind of a chicken in an egg I kind of see it from JP Day's perspective right like okay. Here's all these app stream repos which one has my thing Okay, so there is one app string repo Let me let me pull up a box here and we could take a look at it So working with application streams. I actually made a Live system exercise that you can do with it and kind of get introduced to it So if you go to lab.redhat.com It's called managing software from an application stream So take a minute to get the box provisioned here But in this this walkthrough on a live system We're gonna kind of check out what application streams are available Then we're gonna install one of a specific version and then we're also going to change it to a newer version because we changed our minds Cool, okay Right and we did this In our very first show in October last year This was the demonstration we did with Gunnar as our Was he chief strategist and Grand Puba of Raoul or something? Yeah, yeah, I forget his title she owns with you But yes, the real master Not realm master don't be confused by that Okay, you dungeon master. Yeah All right, so this at the stage This box is and is subscribed to base OS repo and Abstract repo, right? That's the basic stuff that when you register a box you automatically get on relay Okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do a yum module list and This shows me all of the Modules of software that are offered through application streams. So Modules of software are groups of packages that are associated with a specific Application and you can see that For postgres here We ship three different versions currently 96 10 which is the default and 12 Which became available in row 80 I think and So if you're interested in just a specific module, so maybe I'm only interested in looking at postgres I believe in you. Yes, I can one one day So you tell it the module name that you want and then instead of getting QL instead of getting Everything that's offered as a module you only get the one you specified, right? So you can trim that down a little bit to make it easier to look at all right So you will install one if we just did yum module install postgres We get postgres 10 because that's the one that's labeled the fold If you don't want postgres 10 you wanted something like postgres 9 6 you have to add on the version number And that's what is happening here in this command, right? So I'm just gonna click it to run it And it's going to enable the 9 6 module and then install the 9 6 version of postgres All right, so if I look at the list of postgres app streams available That one is the one that's enabled and over here this eye here tells me that that's the version That's been installed in this box and we can verify that by actually running postgres dash dash version, right? 9 6 was what was installed in the box? Okay, so if you wanted to install postgres 12 Same same deal young module install postgres ql colon 12 and you'd get Postgres version 12 install this then the default which is 10 All right, but then maybe you change your mind and you're like, you know what I was running postgres 9 6 I now want to run postgres 10 So how do I get there now? There's some administrative stuff you have to do to like probably want to make a backup or an export of your postgres database So that when you get the new version of software installed, you can import all your data back, right? So nope. I'm not covering any of that. I'm just covering the like application stream Young module commands to flip flop it. Yeah, so you still have to do all those things But to change the version of postgres that you've installed You first have to remove the one that you've got and then install the one you want So I'm gonna remove postgres ql 9 6 All right, so it pulled off all the stuff that it installed And we could take a look at the list of postgres modules available And what you'll see is that 9 6 is still enabled, right? So I just did young module install postgres I'd get postgres 9 6 back So We're going to disable it and then I'm going to enable the version. I want right. I said that I wanted 10 so there we go and Now if I look at the list of available application streams again for postgres, right? It's the default and it's the one that's enabled. All right. So now I do a young module install I I'm specifying in the command version 10 if I didn't specify That's what I'd get because it's both the default and enabled but I want to just be explicit to be concise And now if we look at the list it's There right a little install over here flag and then if I show the version, right? That's actually the version it's installed so Appstream repo from subscription managers where all this stuff is stored and I would say yum. Whoops yum Module list is A good way to get a list of what's all available when versions are available as application streams So Brian, I know this is your jam. Do you have any clarifying statements you'd like to make or corrections? That's that's a really good description Scott. Thanks for thanks for doing that Just just one comment is that not all application streams are modules But most of them are so 99 percent of what you just did applies And that's the the best starting point, but you will find some other application streams that are not modules Some questions some comments, I'm just gonna provide like a lot of info to you right now So The Ryan Cook says this is simple as well as confusing at the same time. So pick that piece of feedback for us worth Why can't you use two different versions? Okay, the same thing right that is an excellent question right so in rel 7 world you could Okay, but let's think about this for a second so let's say that I want postgres 96 postgres 10 and postgres 12 all installed Sure, aren't they all going to install and a binary called postgres? Yeah So how do I separate them and how do I make sure they don't stop on each other and when I start up the server? Aren't they all going to want the same port by default? But a fault. Yes So there's a lot of Stuff like they all have their own libraries to come along with them that are named the same like there's a lot of stuff that conflicts and mashes on each other and In rel 7 we influence this with a technology called software collections There is a tremendous amount of work put into making them not mash into each other but That essentially what we ended up with is a binary called postgres ql 96 a binary called postgres ql 10 a binary called Postgres ql 12 and then the same thing for like all the libraries and things and that made it even more confuddling so in rel 8 world we said all right, we're gonna we're gonna change this and actually Stephen Gallagher wrote a article for fedora a blog called Modularity is dead long-lived modularity where he kind of goes into some some of these things and how it's changed So in rel 8 we said, okay We'll offer a bunch of different ones, but you can have one It's like the Highlander there can be only one And if you have a real need to have more than one on the same system Then what I would suggest is pull down something like the red hat universal base image There you have several different containers running several different versions of what it is that you want on the box and That that would be a more elegant solution than trying to shoehorn them all into the file system and keep them straight and much other stuff So run them as individual containers as opposed to Processes which a container is a process. So that's that probably is more elegant Yeah, let Norenda have just actually posted that as you were saying that like how about using different versions of post ql in containers with Bob man Yeah, yeah, it's if you need that kind of like Multi-database on one host kind of deal. I would recommend going that way anyway because it does give you Some more granular controls as well as standardization right because we do have I believe UBI postgres images, don't we? We I believe we do. I think we do rather reticent as well. Okay, right exactly And and that was exactly our rationale when we did rel 8 we had software collections and previous versions of rel We worked around all the issues to install multiple versions But we've got pushback that it was first complicated to do it And then not all the third-party tools could find the databases where they expected them to be with software collections So we said with rel 8 we have a mature container technology at this point since 90% of Our customers are going to be installing a single database on the system We'll optimize for that and then we'll leverage containers for the cases where You did the you do need more than one on a particular system. Okay, so Can we get all this stuff added to a regular UBI 8 repo? We can discuss that on the level of power next week, maybe Declan so we've been consistently expanding what's available in the UBI 8 repo, right? and We're working on expanding it again For the next release or at a press Linux In 8.3 we included a Open JDK Version of UBI You know there's Continuous improvement in expansion already happening there I think and even if there's I'm sorry Chris go ahead. I was just gonna say remember the UBI patch Packages or images roll with the rel you know version as well, right? So like UBI 8 is Whatever version of 8 is latest, right? So Yeah, and they actually rebuild it every six weeks by default, right? And they'll build it sooner than that if there's a critical or important security or rather that comes out that affects the packages for UBI 8 and if that's too quick or You need things that are not provided natively in the UBI 8 repos You can always use build up to build your own rel 8 based container So that if you build your own rel 8 based container, then you have access to the full realm of rel 8 packages Right the big difference is that UBI 8 was specifically designed to be redistributable So anything that's in the UBI 8 repos you can stick your software on top of and give to someone and it's freely Distributable to them with your stuff in it if you do your own custom rel 8 pack Thanks, Brian Enjoy your next meeting Thank you appreciate this opportunity Thank you so much If you build your own rel 8 container image from the rel 8 repos It could be redistributable But there's some stuff that you have to do through the partner program in order to make that happen If it's just like native inside your organization, I wouldn't worry about it like that's perfectly valid way to Build it and distribute it within your org so Deccone and kudo points out that Redis is missing from UBI 8 repos. Is that a licensing issue? I don't know that what the issue is there. So there's another Scott mick that works for well All right Scott McCarty and he's the program or product manager that manages Container tools and UBI I've been in him real quick. I've been wanting to have one on the show for a while But I know he does a lot with the open shift shows. So I've been giving him a repair a reprieve Oh, how nice of you. Yes At some point I think in the the next month or two. I'm going to force him to to come But he's the person that would be the definitive Have the definitive answer for it. I'll ask him it might not be answered during the show But I'll let you know via discord once I get an answer Yeah, and like I said, if if you need to write us and you're not trying to redistribute it outside of your organization Like you're not trying to sell it to a customer of your own, but you're just using it within your organization Please build a make your own rel 8 using the rel 8 repos which certainly doesn't have read access an application stream Yeah, and that's kind of how I would go anyway right like I wouldn't Like my bespoke environment is bespoke for a reason so I wouldn't assume in every case that the image directly would just be perfectly fine for me I would probably want to look at that source file and say hey are all these parameters good for my environment? Yes or no and One or two flags might you might need or might need to turn off kind of deal in some cases So just keep that in mind right like you can take that image You know the actual file itself and build your own thing out of it, too Yeah, but the trick with that one though is while we rebuild you bi every six weeks and to account for all Package changes and updates and other stuff that's happened If you build your own bespoke rel 8 now now you get to do that Yeah, so you have to track it and you have to rebuild it periodically to make sure that you get all those updates and and changes Okay, cool. So someone's trying to create Oh, this is a fedora image. So why okay, so now the question is If you're looking at chat, I'm trying to play a long year I'm trying to containerize Pajur, which is a Python basic repository with UBI 8 which I would then ask It's a fedora project. Why not use a fedora image? Oh But I understand the reasons for you for using rel to so yeah, there's all kinds of reasons for that but I actually have a lab that is on using already packaged RPMs in Containers and starts off with UBI 8 and it adds the EPO repo inside the container image and then it installs software from EPO into the container image so Sure, let me just throw you this link real quick so I will Point out that I very much chose the packages that I installed to make sure that they wouldn't have broken dependencies or other things so I don't know what the dependencies for the application that you're trying to Install any UBI 8 container is So it may be that if it's too complex or UBI 8 repos don't provide the Requisites that you need for the software that you're trying to install as a package that maybe you should look at Building your own and actually we do that in this and Another scenario That that kind of introduces build a and the builders lab does UBI 8 first and then it has you create your own custom rel 8 Container after that. So If UBI doesn't provide what you need in its repos then try building your own custom one off the rel 8 repos Yeah, and and JP days talking about GCC and how his Our data scientist want a newer version of C that is greater than what we have available, right? Like that's where you take the UBI image and Handle to them with the version of C they want Hopefully that can help them, but if they're not comfortable with You know containers they there might be some training opportunity there for example. So that would be One path so I know that we also provide several versions of the GCC toolkit as application streams with rel 8 on the latest one. I want to say is 10 that came with 8.3 So if it's even more newer than that Wolf yeah That's a hard road to hoe yeah Latest version of GCC. I'm wondering at this point 10 to so and that was released in July So, let me take a look at what application streams we've got yeah GCC tool set not dev tool set. Yes. Okay, you see see tool set. Yeah. Oh and it looks like it may not be a module Oh Okay, that would make some sense one second. I'm looking to see what I'm pulling everything that's got GCC and its title All right, so GCC tools that 10 is 10.0 and We released it Well, actually I take that back Yes, GCC tool set 10.0. We released it with 8.3 in April yeah Sounds right but is it 10 oh GCC tool tool set 10 rpm provides 10.0. Okay, so if they need 10.2 so there's a bunch of Library stuff that is GCC tool set 10 and a lot of the library stuff is 10.2.1 so Okay Yeah Does that help you JP Dave at all? I hope so So you just source that new version like you did in seven right that's the question when you say source You mean install I'm assuming Yeah, so you do a yub install GCC tools actually not here. Let me share my screen. Oh, just there you go. Yeah You show us. I'll just do it if I can type All right, so that's what it's called GCC tool set 10. Mm-hmm. And so There's all the stuff that it's pulling in So 10.2.1 is what I see a lot of 10.2.1 stuff. Yeah, but if you look that's like the libraries Right But like the C++ compiler for example is 10.2.1 so It's a mix, but yeah, that's that's pretty much it And I want to say that there is a that this is in the No, I'm not going to say that because I'm sure I'll be wrong and then yeah already won't yell at me for saying things publicly that are true Mm-hmm. I only lie half the time fine Terrible terrible Okay, so this so this goes back to that Now the next statement from JP data is there's a system versions and then user space versions of packages and rally So yes, you can have to right like there's GCC native to the system that it needs And then the GCC in user space that your users can use so After this is done installing. Let's take a look at what GCC tools at 10 gave us Because there are a couple of packages like Python where we allow you to have multiple application streams installed in parallel Because of reasons right So let's do or pmql All right, so that's really not that helpful All right, so this one is probably more look at you do Q dash out No, thank you. You're welcome. I would have figured it out after dared Yeah, I was like, oh, what's that? Okay, so that's docs Okay, so you can see that what's doing to allow you to keep it separate is it's shoved it into a Versioned directory in opt To help keep it separate from the other stuff. Let me see if I have other stuff installed here. All right, so There's a cheat I see a cheat GCC eight at the top, right? Yeah, and and this is the GCC C plus plus that is The system provided one that's eight dot three. So the way that they keep it separate is by showing this on the directory Similar to how we allow you to have both Python two seven and Python Six or four actually there's a couple versions of Python three now Yeah, but yeah, so Yeah Most application streams there can be only one but there are a couple of exceptions where you can have more than one and you fall into a Terrible abyss of sorrow When when you decide that that's the route that you want to go Yes, so JP date says you got to tell what system which version to use Yes, so for things like Python, we still use the alternatives Um Utility for doing that so you can say that if somebody just uses sharp bang user bin Python It really goes to Python two seven or it really goes to Python three four I don't think GCC toolkit includes is included in alternatives. I could be wrong I'm not I've not looked at it, but I know that things like Python have that so you can set with the system unversioned version of the thing is Which makes you wonder Why eight is installed? There's got to that's the one that we had two years ago, right? Yeah, there you go. I was released Makes sense to me. Okay Yeah, and and this is one of the things where like rel is trying to be more adaptive over time because in rel six world Right, whatever was GCC when rel six was released. That's what you had for ten years You didn't get anything else. You just got that one. Yeah, and with rel seven we introduced software collections Nbrl a and I think we did a little better with with application streams because it it simplifies it to Mostly have only one thing on the system Mostly. Yes. That's the keyword. Well rules are made to be broken. There's no such thing as perfection. Okay. I get it Um Especially with Python the two seven the three six whatever, right? Well like Ansible uses to seven And so we needed to carry it for for that reason Most other things like the red hat Utilities that are Python based Those had already been updated to Python three by and large So it that two seven was included to support some of the other Layer products that we're still using the old version of Python And Scott McCarty just got back to me. He says right now. None of the databases are available directly in UBI eight That said when rel eight four comes out, we're probably going to add redis no matter what so There's the answer to that one for you I believe that was detective conan That was asking about that and then Yes, you have to specify what you know in the user space what Version of whatever you're using to use um So can we get maria db and postgresql too maybe When is the eight four g a jp date is asking? Oh, let's take a look at the container catalog. Yeah Next may I don't think it's that far off is it what eight four Uh, it is in the spring this year. Yes. Okay This year. Yeah, not 2021 not 2022 right because so we've gone to the six month minor release So in the spring we do a minor and in the fall we do a minor And then we do have a three-year major So next year right 2022 spring right rel nine So buckle up Cool Yep, there we go No post addresses um somebody was asking about updates For rel nine ugg we aren't off six yet Ouch, sorry dude But I mean this is the nature of the industry we're in right it's going to get faster as Time goes on it doesn't stay at the same pace It's always increasing pace as we have all increased time, right? So It's it's almost like an exponent at that point. Um time goes on Technology changes go up faster and faster and faster. So But there's also some benefits to going faster, right? Like There's there's a huge difference between six and seven You're right. There's a pretty big difference between seven and eight yes, um, but By shortening the release cadence of nine There's not going to be a tremendous gulf between eight and nine So things like the in place of grade utility Currently half for seven to eight um becomes Less challenging going from eight to nine and then less challenging going from nine to ten As we move through that the faster release cadence, right? The idea is things do get easier as we have fall, right? right and In general Not always the case. Yeah Hopefully that's the intent anyway, right? We try we really try Right and and the same thing with the minor releases of rel. So Uh, there was a point in time where like we would maybe do a minor release every year to 18 months And sometimes we like hold back the minor release, even though it was mostly ready because we wanted to get a a hardware manufacturer, you know kernel module enablement or something in there and so we'd hold it until it's ready Um to try and pick that up and now with rel eight when we went to the predictable release cadence It's like look, we know it's the spring So if your thing is not ready by the spring then we'll pick it up in the fall And generally that distance is not so far that it's um, then it causes problems so All right. Uh, we are well over time. So yes Uh, thank you. I'm getting a clarification from uh, Scott on the other databases Conan. So I'll get back down to that as soon as he does Um Yeah, great show today Scott like very informative lots of diving in Miranda have now knows that lab redhead.com exists. Um, I said that like a midwesterner. I'm sorry Anything else you want to say before we jump off the air here? Uh, no, thanks everybody for for tuning today. Uh, I have no idea who's going to be coming in two weeks, but Uh, I'll continue to bring the heat um, like you down every couple of weeks and uh, yeah, if I was really talented, I'd actually figure on a schedule more than You know, half a week in advance, but I'm not that talented. Well, you know, we only ask for so much right Eventually I'll get there. I actually was feeling really good at the end of the last year. I had like two or three shows lined up, but uh Yeah, I gotta get back all that. Yeah last year's over All right, I'm having a 2020 hangover. Yeah, no kidding. That is a thing. Um, all right Okay, yeah, so thank you everyone for joining. This is the last show of the day for the channel But tomorrow we've got all kinds of funness going on. We have Uh, OpenShift Container Storage Office hours. We'll be talking about multi cloud object gateways Uh Free developer sandbox for OpenShift to have a special show about that. Um, Then there is an entire OpenShift Commons gathering on data science We're only going to be able to cover the first few hours of that and then we're jumping over to the github or get ops happy hour, um So all that is will be on the calendar. I'm trying to figure out Diane sent me two different links to the the data science one So I'm trying to figure out which link to go to and I'll get that updated today. Hopefully So check out the calendar. I'll drop a link to that in chat And stay in the know. Um, we'll see you tomorrow folks. Appreciate all your time today. Thank you everybody