 So maybe it's a little bit too geared toward my own site, but I'm finding a really big struggle between crossing over from all the copywriting, copy editing, true writing that I've done, trying to bridge over into design. I actually have a pretty good feel just from an eye for what looks good on the screen, but I'm really struggling with how to handle a site that has kind of these are all these really cool things I've done in the past that we're all writing. And these are all these very design type things. And at this point, my kind of workaround has been to have multiple tabs going on. This is design, this is logos, this is writing. And I feel like it's now it's so diluted that it's nothing. It's become this hodgepodge. How do you address a site that needs to accomplish, as you say, with goals? Very different goals, but they're both personally driven. And that might be too much for this forum. This is really bare bones, but I figured I might as well ask it. Little secret, the gentleman in front of you can probably answer better than I can. Okay. But I will give you my answers on it. I'll answer questions at the break. I'll take both answers. I'll take all the information I can get on it. Well, I'm a graphic designer, and a front-end book developer, and a photographer, and a speaker. Exactly. And I just yesterday launched my new design for my own personal website. I don't know what I meant, but I'm settled in. So for me, I'm thinking, how am I going to communicate that? Now I have a tab for my portfolio, but I'm gonna expand on that. But you have to think about what you want people to know you first. Do I want people to know I'm a graphic designer? And then, like I said before, primary, secondary, tertiary, it's like, oh, I can do this as well. But you want people to know her, she's a graphic designer. Now years ago, and he answered the question, so I'm writing it on you. I asked him a similar question. He said, what do you want to be known for? So a front-end web developer. But I realized that wasn't true to myself. I thought that's what I wanted, but it wasn't. I'm known as a graphic designer, but I work in the web. I can code, but that wasn't what my first love is. My first love is graphic design and web design. So that's what I want people to know a little. I also happen to speak. I don't do it very often, but I love to do it. And I let people know. But when people think about me, they go, Andrew, should a graphic designer hire her? Yeah, hire her. I'm very usually brought up the word logo. Yeah. Well, okay. So logos are big for companies that have a logo. Whether the logo has access to the part of the logo or if that's what you think it is from the store. A graphic designer can produce a logo. I've been across this a number of times. Choice is for a graphic designer, right? Right. When I look at the logo just on a sheet, copy sheets, they say, oh, I got one for that one. But then thinking about how you apply a logo on this color is for your corporate standards, not only just on web design, but also on paper or for the art. Where do you take the copy from? The copy of the logo is already done. Or will you recommend adding the logo to my process as you mix the colors? The logo is the logo from the well-spraying of everything else. You already have colors that you've called out from another graphic designer from a style guide. And yeah, the person designing a logo should use that. But if it's a brand new company, they're thinking of the colors that you need to use in that logo, they're making the choice. And then from there, the rest will spring from there. Things to consider when you're choosing a logo or you have logos that are designed out. First of all, will it look good black and white or gray scale? Because your logo's gonna be on everything. And sometimes faxing, yeah, that's still a thing. It's only gonna be black. Will it look good? Small, will it look good? Large, shrink it down, make it bigger. Tape it to the wall, walk all the way to the other room. This is a good room to do it in. And see, can I still figure out who that is? Now, unless you're Pepsi, Coca-Cola, or Mercedes-Benz, you can recognize that logo everywhere. There's no type, you don't need any type of it. You see the three star Mercedes-Benz. It's one of the most recognizable brands in the world. And with color, you have to make sure they're harmonious and they work together. Will it look good closer together, further apart? And you need a color spectrum to choose from. Not just one color or two color that will be in the logo, but learning how to work from there and creating a color palette that you can use for your print and all the lines of work. Any other questions? It's time for the break. Sorry. You're fired. I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry, here we should switch to the other room. No. Yeah, I have 10 minutes. I have 10 minutes. I have 10 minutes. 10 minutes. I like exceptional brands. How does it work? Just on time, here for interaction and how to get equal to come back. Engagement, engagement, engagement. These days happen. I was really wrong about this. If you're offering something They come to your website. They found you. They did a Google search for a credit card. They come to your website. They didn't find what they're looking for or they don't. But you need a reason for them to come back. And this is the really design issue with more of a marketing issue. And this is where you can say, hey, I can offer more. I have an e-mail newsletter. Or, hey, I'm on Twitter. I offer tips or find out what I'm doing if you like me. I've designed handbags. I have a new line coming out next week. I will have a promo quote on Facebook on that. So that's if it's just a stab, like, here are my products. This is how much you can buy. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. And then when they leave, they never come back. Any other questions? You got loads of time. Unless you have a question. I was actually wondering, you can experience. I've had a lot of impact compliance on how you do space. And then it's me or you and I, or you can turn off, especially my older business partner, who leads to the first website down there. And they want the bad example that you do. They want everything right there. They want the scrolling. They want the search. They want nothing. And I'm really, really tired of talking about it now. Especially with the aging stuff. They're really not even layouts for any time sometimes. So it's very awkward. What do you have in your head? I think it's about them being, like, because without them feeling like you're telling them what you're saying is right, what they're saying is wrong. I had a really tough, this brings to mind a story. I had a really tough conversation last year with a client. And unfortunately, I was on my own with this call. I wasn't really the other person that normally was with this call. It couldn't be the other person that called. And the client, as a blog, kids, and they have a lot of good information. But he was saying, I want to be like the New York Times. I want that kind of layout. Now, he wasn't saying he wanted, like, the fonts and the colors to look everything. He wanted the functionality. He wanted the navigation to change on the blog post. And then he wanted a sub-navigation on top of it for all the different categories. There were a lot. So it would have been like a two-line navigation. And I had to talk him out of it. And I explained, I said, you're not, unfortunately, you're not a newspaper. You're not putting out 100 stories or more a day. You're putting out a blog post maybe every other day, maybe once a week. You don't have that much content. And changing your navigation page to page is completely wrong. You're going to confuse your users. It's going to be like, wait, home page. The home page was over here. Now it's over there. What's going on? And I had to be gentle, but firm. And this is where you get into diplomacy. And you have to think from their point of view. Yes, I understand you want to make more money. But crowding everything together isn't going to work. And you have to come up with counterpoints. Like, you need a breathing space that you need. You talk about facts, like conversion. You can do some Google searches about space and conversion. Think Neil Patel, if you're familiar with him, talks a lot about conversion and has some articles on that. So arm yourself with that information and then be polite but firm. Because I was talking with a man and I'm a woman. That's just the fact that this just is what it is. And it's just like accessibility? Yes. If you explain why things have different colors and they're underlined, if you explain it in a large whole manner, most people will go, OK, you're the expert. We'll go with that. It's like, I call back on accessibility so much. And the fact that you now have to be polite. I'm not completely up on that, but there has been something in the back of my head. So yeah, accessibility is another good argument. You want to make everything right, all applicable, and so on and so forth. It's inevitable. Something that you can just remind them of your experience and maybe what you've come across before or the previous time is telling about the outcomes of that. Yeah, bounce rates, exactly. They get to do the landlifts. I actually really love your Facebook analogies on a better term because you're right. I was having this conversation the other day with someone older and he did a little bit of what was designed way back when people were practicing this. You know, in the dark ages of label-based codes and all of that. And you know, are you sure you want to close these things? Yeah. There's no key to that in college. No. You know, are you sure you want that content of, don't you want it up above? Because I had to explain that people don't have a phone to scroll in anymore. And I think that the huge misconception of people first learn about anything web-related years ago was that people don't want to scroll. That was true within 24 hours. The audiences have evolved. They've learned and adjusted. It was about five years ago or so that the three little lines that you see now, what do they call it, hand burners? Yeah. A lot of people didn't know what it was, but it did catch on. And part of it was also designers with menu. And they saw that. And it started to connect with a lot of people. And now you have designers that drop the menu. I'm a little iffy on that, but more and more people know what that means. And yeah. Speaking to that subject of the menu and the screen, what's your take on keeping the menu floating as they scroll or just putting it a little on the button to take you back to the time? I think those can be helpful if you have a lot of content or a lot of, and especially on a long page, and you want people to browse more, I think that can be helpful. And the backup, I'm not sure if people understand what that is. Some people know the command. I think it's command up arrow or down arrow to go shoot back up or shoot back down. People know more about what a browser does than what your website does. Because they use the browser day in and day out. They don't use your website day in and day out. So if it's a helpful item and it's out of the way, I don't think it hurts. I've had it on my last version of the website. But if you don't have that much content, you don't have to have it. You can also have a menu at the border like they reach down and then, oh, then I can click here. That finished the article. There's an end. Any other questions? Yes. So given that most content is consumed on the news day, there's a lot of good news anyway. But a lot of good stuff, at least for us, is done on the desktop side. Can you just make some examples of tips on how maybe some things that work really well on the desktop that don't translate as local mobile or vice versa have to have creation like that? Well, in the designs that I create, I've worked sometimes with different developers. And I create the design, and then they implement the design later on. And I have a mobile version as well as a desktop. Because we have to remind the client that this used to be just desktop, desktop. I mean, my life. It can be tricky. I'm trying to think of. Well, like hover overs? Yeah, definitely hover overs. That animation where you hover over and it slightly raises, that's not going to work on an iPad because of our mobile device. And that's what we find a lot of people that can do over the course of an animation on the desktop and you know, the mobile one is what it's all about. And then the app can make sure to go over that and then you're in front of it. Yeah, you have to think of what other action can you show, definitely to click on when they press it to show the interaction of what happens just before it clicks to the next website. I think always making mobile first is a really good idea because your audience is increasingly on mobile. And a year from now, two years from now, it'll be maybe 70% of your traffic is mobile. So thinking that first and then, OK, we'll look on the desktop. So you may be working backwards, but you're moving forward, but you're working backwards. We're here to add functionality which is what that's about, then to take it away and try and replace it with mobile. If we're doing well on mobile, then you're holding from there because you move off. It's like when the slider, somebody's still using the slider. I'm saying anything bad. On mobile, it should be able to flip through your phone. You're not thinking about it on desktop, but on your phone, you want to flip through the next. So I'm going to flip that little tiny dot. And if you put an arrow off to the side of it, maybe there's a link to something different. I think that's it for me, so thank you very much.