 Thank you for keeping it Y in the morning. My name is Ram Magukko. Hello Monday! Well today we have a lot of stuff for you as I had mentioned earlier. You're just in time for the next conversation of the day. It's all about you and politics which starts right now. My name is Ram Magukko. If you're only just joining us, this is Y in the morning. I'm sure that you engage with us on our social media platforms. The hashtag is Y in the morning at Ram Magukko and that Y 254 channel. Remember to also engage with us on our Facebook platform. We are live on our website at www.kebc.co.ke. On Facebook, head over there, drop in your comment at the comment section. We've made a post there in regards to youth participation. This particular Monday morning, let's talk about politics and joining me, I am with Mayena Karobiya. He's a youth leader. We shall also be joined by Emma Mongute. She is going to join us in a bit in a few and then we shall dissect the matters concerning youth and leadership. Let's get to know about what you do and what you stand for. I'm aware that you have a position somewhere. You can tell us where that is and a bit of what you do. Okay. Thank you Ram for hosting me here. My name is Mayena Karobiya. I'm currently serving as the chair forum for Progressive Future. Youth led NGO that deals with issues to do with peace, cohesion, environment conservation, youth development and fostering access to quality education. Out of that, I am in the national secretariat of United Democratic Alliance, that is UDA. I represent the youth in that secretariat. Interesting, interesting. We have a full package. My county of residence is Campbell County. That's where I pay my tax from. Yes. Thank you for finding time, Mayena. Yes. It's a pleasure. Hope you're well. Thank you. I am well. You're well. Yes. Let's talk politics now. Jimmy Wajiki has had to step aside and retire from politics and allow youths to take up the mantle. You thought of that? You see, Jimmy Wajiki is not a youth. That is one thing to talk about here. You see, there's this approach when we are going to politics where politicians always present to be the ambassadors of youth for interest or youth interest. And they present vague policies and vague aspirations of the youth. Jimmy Wajiki cannot be talking on behalf of the youth. Yet he has been here for the last, I think, more than 50 years. Youth matters, as that guy from, I think Nairobi Slams talked about, of Mamboa, Vijana, Wachia, Vijana. I would also tell Wajiki, matters youth, leave it to people below 35 to dissect them and promote them. But Wajiki, he needs to talk about issues that he has been doing with, he has been dealing with for the last, I think, that he has. Yesterday he actually acknowledged that he has been doing business with the government. He has been a commission agent of tenders within government. That should be his strength. That should be what he is doing. He just stick to business. Yes, he should stick just to business. And you see, Wajiki is presenting himself as the Donald Trump of Kenyan politics. That he can just wake up, being a businessman, he can just wake up and start floating lofty ideas to us as Kenyans. I think Kenyans are brighter than that. Kenyans know what they want. Kenyans want an experienced leader, somebody who knows what is happening in government, and somebody who actually identifies with the needs and challenges of Kenyans in daily to day life. He said that he wants to vie for presidency. He's going to challenge Arrelau Dengar at the nominations of ODIAM. Do you think that he stands a chance? I think in that aspiration, Jimmy Wajiki presents himself as an idealist. We know who caused the sorts in ODIAM. Last time we heard a youthful wing trying to take over ODIAM. We saw many in black, raining on delegates in Kasarani. So I think Jimmy Wajiki trying to vie for presidential ticket in ODIAM, I think he's baiting more than he can chew. I think initially he had the idea of having his own political party. ODIAM, if he still has that aspiration of leading this country, he should not bank on ODIAM support. We know who caused the shots in ODIAM. ODIAM, for the last or since its inception, there has not been internal democracy. It has been a neutral form of leadership, even in terms of determining the smallest decision in that party. It has to be consulted at the top echelons of leadership in that party. So I think Jimmy Wajiki is idealistic when he tries to imagine that he can take over ODIAM from Arrelau Dengar. It is an unrealistic thing. It is unrealistic. They don't arrival. They don't arrival. You see, let me tell you, politics is all about controlling a certain constituency of people. Which constituency? Which constituency does Jimmy Wajiki control in this country? In terms of where can we identify his stronghold? At least for Arrelau Dengar, we can say he has a certain constituency that he controls or he commands. But Jimmy Wajiki is a newbie in terms of elective politics. So I don't find him any chance. I don't see him standing any chance in terms of presidential ticket within ODIAM. He might actually embarrass himself. What if he actually gets it? It can't get it. Unless Arrelau Dengar just wakes up and doses him without going to the ballot. But if they are going to go to the ballot of ODIAM, a presidential ticket, my friend will be washed away. We've seen many youths come up and say that, many people have come up and said that they're standing in for the youth. They are vile for youthful positions. Yet many can as I've questioned the credibility of them being actually termed as youths. Jimmy Wajiki is one person that you are mentioning. Reminds me of many other people who have held positions that are youthful. Yet Kenyans feel as though they are not youthful. But they're getting endorsed. They're getting support. They're getting votes. Even though they don't win, actually even if they don't win, there are some votes that they get. Isn't that a sign that there is some problem somewhere? You see the challenge of democracy is that since the dispensation of multi-party in 1992, politics tends to be more commercialized. And you find that politicians take advantage of the challenges, the livelihood challenges that Kenyans get in our country. So they take advantage of this, commercialize politics, make sure that as many challenged, economically challenged youth follow them for handouts. But I can tell you that from 2022, we are going to have a new dispensation. We are going to deal with the economic challenges and economic aspirations of our country. And I have been seen by virtue of my position within a political party. I've been seen very many youth present themselves for leadership. And I hope they are not going to be assimilated in the current market politics that we find in our country. I can tell you, if we are going to be supporting people who are, who claim to be supporting youth interest, let us look at their track record. For the first time, I hope in 2022, Kenyans are going to be rational enough and vote people not just because of their promises, but vote them because of their track record, vote them because of their history based on the economics of the Kenyan youth. Do they do that? Those are things we like saying. I can tell you, I can tell you, I can tell you the conversation I've changed my brother Ram. If you follow it, if you follow the journey of BBI and the handshake, people have taken their stakes high. They are demanding more for their leaders. If you are not going to follow into the economic conversation that Kenyans are demanding, my friend, you are going to be irrelevant. And that's why you find BBI because it was a political pet project of two people. It got its struggles in terms of legitimacy with the people. Yes. Okay. Interesting. Make sure that you tell us what you think about it. That's like it's right in the morning. Jimmy Wanjiki challenges Royal Odinga to retire from politics saying that youths need to pick up the mantle. And he is going to challenge Honourable Odinga the nominations for the presidential nominations in ODIM. Does he stand a chance? Maena Karubia says that it is dead on arrival. What do you think about that? At Ram Aguko and that Y254 channel engage with us. You know, I mentioned earlier on that we shall be joined by Emma Mongute, who is also a youth leader. She shall tell us more about herself. Emma is also joining me in Sirocadb Sanayama. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ram. Thank you for having me. It is Corona. Dynamics in Nairobi. So tell us a bit about yourself so that we can also tell us what you do in Canada today. So I am the founder of Manila M.E.K Foundation. I'm also a human rights champion. Political leader in waiting. In waiting. Are you going to... Let's not get into that. Thank you so much for coming. Tell us what you think about this. You've been here. You've heard what Maena said about youths in leadership. What do you think about this? Is it the right time for youths to pick up the mantle and do they always make the right choices? He's saying that the political landscape has changed and it is changing. And Maena, I mentioned you said that youths are going to make better decisions voting for people who have the right ideologies and the right manifestos. Do you agree with that? Okay. So first of all, I'd like to start by saying that we should not be having this discussion in 2021 that it's long overdue that we should have youth. I mean, if we are looking at inclusivity, we are looking at having youth on the table, women also holding leadership positions. We cannot have the select few dominates. And just because somebody has been in politics for long doesn't make them agree, just makes them experienced. But then when we have different energy coming in and when we have youth represented, then we have youth for youth because we understand the problems of youth. We cannot have people who are not youth representing youth. And he also said that BBI was a pet project. I beg to differ. BBI was a good document. The only thing it was nullified under the procedure. It did not follow procedure. And also because they were saying that it is supposed to be a popular vote, then majority of people were not for it. I'm also differing with my colleague here that people's mindsets have changed. That is not entirely true. Why do you believe so? Because let's look at the politics of Kenya. Who are the majority voters? The youth. The youth and the people in Masinani. Has their mindset changed? Have they moved from the mindset of tribalism? Have they moved away from the conversation of gender? I mean, now we have women trying to fight twice as harder to get into political spaces. So to give blanket statements like that is wrong and to also say that what the people who are vouching for BBI had something to gain is the wrong way to look at it. And as long as we have conversations along that line, then we are losing it because BBI was a good document. The only problem is the procedure was not followed. You're doing the right thing in the wrong manner. In the wrong way, yes. And now if they go to court again and they follow the right procedure, because the document itself was not, how do I say, attacked for lack of a better word, it was just the procedure they followed. And this is what we need to move away from talking about people who are doing well by the country. And then we think that they're trying to further their own agenda. Will you ask that is it the right time for you to be in governance? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I wanted to respond to what she said, but you had also mentioned the same thing earlier on. You said that someone below 35 is someone who has a local standard to be able to have a conversation or put up proposals that who should take up leadership in youth. You mentioned that those are the people who should be involved in this particular conversation. You've also mentioned the same thing. I alluded to the fact that there is a fact I call experience. Now the youths have one problem. Yes, we have the time, but the experience is what some of us lack. Is that also a factor? And also you rejoined that to what she said in regards to youths changing their mindset. You see Ram, today we are talking about youth. For the longest time, or for the first time, we are hearing politicians who have aspiration for presidency making you this part of their main conversation. I've heard his excellency William Ruto have a whole conversation about youth. In fact, when he made his last press conference, he talked in great range about youth. Jimi Wanjige, as you are alluding to yesterday, he was talking about youth. Dengar has been talking about youth. Everybody is talking about youth. Haslas are the youths. Actually, haslas are youth. Actually, that validates my submission or my suggestion or my position that the conversation has changed. Youths are demanding more. Youths are the center of conversation. And we have made ourselves to be a center of conversation by actually telling true to power that this document that you are presenting to us has nothing to us, for us. If, like today, if the BBI, if I was to talk about it, though it is not something that I should be talking about, it is a past document by virtue of the judgment of court of opinion. It's a done deal. It's a done deal. Now we are focused. In fact, we shouldn't have any conversation about it. But let me say this, Ram. The youth are the center of the conversation. The leading presidential candidates are talking about youth. They are presenting their interests, their manifestos about the youth. So that tells you if we consolidate the youth base, if we consolidate the youth vote, because they are the majority registered voters according to the ABC records, we can determine who is going to be the president of this country. And for the first time, let me tell you, last week I had a stakeholder's meeting with youth leaders and youth serving organizations. And our deliberation was that we are going to make youth to be a voting bloc in this country. In advanced democracies, youth are considered to be a voting bloc. But in this country, women are the only voting bloc that we have in terms of the demographics. So for the first time in 2022, we are going to make the youth to be a voting bloc. We are going to be the determining factor of who becomes the next president in this country. It's not like we don't. We have youth leaders. We have the YAM Parliamentarians Association. It exists. Yes, it exists. In fact, it was that stakeholder's meeting they had a representative. From YPA? Yes, KYPA. The CEO of Bluma is my good friend. Let me tell you this, Ram. The challenge we have, when we go into the political space, is that these young politicians, when they elected for the first time, they are inducted. Or in a leadership, even when you get into public service, you are told to go to a two-weeks induction. And it is during that induction that people are shifted from their focus. That's exactly what I said in the morning. I don't know if you heard me say that. It's so easy to talk about something when you're on the outside. But when you get in, you get conformed to a different pattern. This two-weeks induction. This is the same thing that we've been seeing for so many years. Youths getting into parliament, into leadership, and changing the narrative. They used to vie for something. They used to stand in for something. But when they get into positions, whatever they stood in, whatever they stood for, is the opposite of whatever they get into. Let me build into that before my good friend gets in. We have seen youthful leadership come on board. We have seen people who are actually youth leaders, or youthful leaders, who have actually done what they promised in terms of being the alternative voice of leadership, speaking true to power. Look at how our party, our former party is behaving. We have seen youthful leadership, like the leadership of Dede Nyoro, the leadership of Rongo Kanata, the leadership of Kemani Isyongwa. People who are young, but they have not, or they have lived to the promises that they give that when we get into power, we are going to present an alternative voice. We are going to present an alternative type of leadership. Let me tell you, the greatest challenge that youth leadership or youth, when they get into power, make is that you get into power and you're expected to toe the party line. You're expected to toe what top leadership is telling you to do. But I can tell you, at least I have seen it in Jubilee, there was a change in 2017. Youthful leaders who got into power, they actually lived to the promise of being the alternative voice and they will be talking true to power. And we have seen it. And that's why you have been getting high octane politics from 2017 to date, where youthful leadership have actually been telling top powers that this is not how we are going to do it. But you see, at the end of the day, as I come to you, at the end of the day, every political party has their rules, their laws that they stand for, that every member of that particular party should follow. Are you saying that youths ought not to follow these rules of the party? But you go. Let me shed some light to what you're saying. To say that we have youth, what Rob was asking, why do we have youth who are chosen to represent people and then they deviate? Now, what we need to understand is we need to elect people, not because they are youth, not because they are women. But because they are ready to learn, experience notwithstanding, they stand for something, they have passion and they are people of integrity. Then we will not be having this issue of doing another person's bidding. Because when you are given the leadership docket, there are people who you are going to represent. And you're not going there to do another person's bidding, but then you are tied to serving your people. And I agree with you that youth are the majority voters and also women. But then when we hear our leaders talk about youth, youth, youth, the question is why? That's what we need to ask ourselves. And instead of focusing on problem, problem, what is the solution? Now, let me just shed some light on why they keep focusing more on youth. They keep focusing more on youth because they know they have the time, they are passionate. And these are young people with aspirations, they tap into that. Politics is a game of manipulation and power. And they have the numbers. And they have the numbers. And that's why it's vested interest and the promise of a bright future for these youth. And they are passionate also about... And look at the majority of youth, they are the ones using social media, social media to further conversations and stuff like that. So the reason they are referring to youth, youth, youth is not because they really care. I mean, let me put it this way. So then I'm not misquoted. For anyone to want to have somebody and especially in politics around them, there's something they are getting from them. And now that is what I'm shedding light on. The reason they are referring to youth, youth more is because they are the majority, they have time. And somehow they are going to use them as food soldiers. I mean, we've seen this happening. We've seen people having women seen in political rallies and women open stage for them. But then now look at what it comes to the circle of leadership. They're not there. When it's the decision making table, they're not there. So it is true. It is time, it is time that we understood that as much as we want to fight for youth and vouch for our voices to be heard, it's also important that we also ask for steak at the table. Because otherwise, then we'll be doing other people's bidding. Maelana mentioned earlier that someone like Jimmy Wanziggy ought not to stand in to claim that he represents the youth. Do you subscribe if I got you right? Yes, yes, yes. That's what you said. Do you believe so? Yes. And the question is why, why is he? Thank you. Let me tell you, she's a fellow youth. She knows that our voice can best be interesting, can best be expressed by the guy and me. Maena, what I'm trying to say is let's get youth in leadership positions, youthful people who have integrity, who are passionate and who are going to live by the manifesto, they pledge. They lack experience. No, experience is a bottleneck. You learn, you learn. We have had people, I mean, Ram, look at it this way. When you finish campus and get into the job market, how experienced are you? Zero. But are you, do you grow in your job? Yet they want someone with two years experience. Then let's have people nurturing the youth and let's stop, let's look for solutions and let's not focus on problem because the minute we focus more on problems, we are creating more problems. When we look at solutions, then we look at how to curb this because then that what happens is 10 years from now we'll still be having the same conversation for the sake of conversation. I want us to touch on yet another thing here. Let me add something. You have already joined. Yes, I have already joined. I have something to add value to what my sister is talking about. Let me tell you Ram, this thing that you call experience is a bottleneck. It's actually one of the hindrances of youth people or youth population getting into power. I think for me as our country, when we have the largest component of our population being youth, we shouldn't be talking about experience as being a factor, a determining factor of people joining or being considered for any opportunity. For me, the only determining factor that should be checked, Ram, is the values that she was talking about. Integrity, transparency, the skills, the necessary skills, the capacity, the personal character. If we get into to look at those values or those qualities and shed away this determining factor of experience, then we are going to get the right leadership in our country. I believe in the youth population, I believe youth have the capacity and the necessary character to deliver on what is expected in any institution. Yeah, and I agree with Maena because furthering such narratives is using those narratives to deny people a chance. And we also need to hold our leaders accountable to their word and to what they say they will deliver. Because we've seen in the country that people will come and say, oh, I will do this, I will do this if you elect me. But then the minute they're in power, then they do away with people who are in the system, they bring in their people. You get, and no one does anything. And that is what we are used to, to sing, happen, and this needs to change. Before I go to the next thing, that's the exact thing that I've been asking over and over again. What is happening with the youth? For example, the KIPA, you had a meeting with them last week. There are many kids who feel as though the youths who are in power are not actually representing them. But they are failing in their mandate to represent the youths as they are in leadership. Some are senators, some are governors, some are holding different positions in different capacities. What is the problem here? You see, the reason I say there's that feeling around is because there's a certain percentage of youth who when they see leaders, they only expect handouts from them. They don't demand right policies from them. They don't demand right registrations from these leaders. We are going for second best. Is it that we are going for the quick benefits? We are going for the quick benefits. When I look at a leader or when I meet a leader personally, I always ask him, what are you doing for the youth in terms of policy registration and in terms of policy making? So I think our leaders also fear in terms of engaging the youth because with that expectation, that commercial expectation or economic expectation, then it means they have maybe little resources at their disposal. Then it means they dig deep into their pockets. Let me say this. When we engage in a honest or direct conversation in regards to economic prospects of our country, I think we are shifting from the politics for power's sake. I can tell you, if we continue sustaining this economic conversation, the bottom up economic model versus the trickle down conversation, trickle down economics model, then I can tell you, youth are going to find their way into those conversations. You are going to find them because of the creativity, the energy and the education that youth have gotten over the years. You are going to find new conversation build up along these models. I can tell you, if we have a honest conversation along the economic prospects, there you are going to find youth being at the center of this conversation because it means that any model, if any model succeeds or is voted in in 2022, be it bottom up economic model or trickle down economic model, then it means that it is going to affect how they are going to transact their businesses and the economic affairs post 2022. Why don't you sustain that conversation? You see, let me tell you, Ram, as media, you have a moral responsibility to shift the conversation from the politics. For the longest time, politics have been serving economics. It is time that economics serve politics. Let us talk about economics. Even when we come into these shows, let us delve too much into the economics rather than the politics of the day. Minor to say that the media have a role to play, that is true, but then we owe it to ourselves as well, to do our due diligence and to also do what is right for us by informing ourselves and making right decisions. When we talk about youth not being represented, Ram talked about having senators who are youthful, but then they also have a mandate to do. You get like a youth MP has a whole mandate, things he is supposed to deliver to his people. Instead, the solution here would be, let's have each ministry have a youth docket and break down what representation of youth looks like. Because then to want every youthful leader to represent the youth, what does that look like? I believe at UDA we have youth representation. In fact, let me tell you, just give me this opportunity to talk about it. Right from the gate, right from the gate, which gate? The UDA gate. To the last, to the to the to the senior most position within UDA. We have an 85% youthful youth hold in positions. I want us to move to yet another thing. Now, because of the BBI, we are looking at a scenario where many leaders who wanted to regain or get or sustain themselves in politics or leadership because of the annulment of, you know, because of what happened at the Court of Appeal, some may need to reconsider their positions. Some may need to restrategize for 2022. For example, the second-term governors. What are they going to do now? It was also on the headlines today. I read it and the question on the headlines of the people today was, which way second-term governors to embrace the law of the BBI with the hope of landing jobs in the proposed expanded cabinet and now to go back to the drawing board and restrategize what is the way forward for such governors. Some are expecting to become CSS. They are assuming opt for senators, I don't know, for the Senate seat. But now still in conjunction with also how youth are also playing in. But now the BBI has brought in a big wave in politics. People need to restrategize. Your thoughts, Karabia? You see, Ram, politics is like a game. You have to have plan A and plan B. These governors, second-term governors, they also have their plans. They have their plan Bs. They had their plan Bs even with the BBI. They knew if it failed, this is our next option. And that's why you find there are second-term governors. Even during the BBI conversation, they were talking of, I'm going to defend my, I'm going to go for the Senate seat. I'm going for the MP seat. Like I had the governor of Boussia, Ojamon, saying that he is going to vie for a certain MP seat. I've also had the governor of Kakamega. I've had the governor of Murangatokov, vie for presidency. For Kakamega governor, he said that he was going to vie for presidency. But he dropped in favor of Rayla Odinga. But we have presidency being vied for Governor Mutua. Yes, Governor Mutua, Governor Idia. They are vying for presidency. These governors, they have their plan Bs even without the BBI. And I would say this, that the youth need to present themselves. This is actually a vacancy from the second-term governors. The youth need to present themselves for these positions. We have a youthful leader being a governor in Governor Stephen Tsang for Nandi. And we have other governors who we consider to be youth. In terms of their age and in terms of their style of leadership, is youth friendly. And I think youth need to step up, present themselves for elective politics in 2022 and should not actually restrict them for the MC seat. They should go even for governor, for executive seats, like governor and MP seat. So, and we shouldn't limit ourselves. You know, it's interesting, Maena, that you're saying someone like Jimmy Wajigie ought not to be considered as a youth. Yet you have governors who are his age. Yes. And you'd still say that they are still representing the youth. I don't consider a governor who is above 35, or even above 40. Let me keep it calculated. Many of these governors are above 35, brother. Yes, but at least for Tsang, I would consider for Tsang when he got into elective politics as a senator initially. He was actually below 35. I think he was even 32 years. So, let me say this, that to be a youth also, it is not just about age. It's all about even, it's about the mentality in terms of how your perception according to the youth population. Because for me, Jimmy Wajigie, by all factors, apart from age, even in terms of how he was behaving before he presented himself for presidential ticket in ODF. I didn't hear him talk about you. He was just talking about the political players, the senior political players, who do this, right like this, who do that. Let me come to you, Emma, but it's interesting how you've changed. You're saying, initially, you're like the age is a factor. Now you're saying it's not about the age, it's about the ideology. No, it's about age, and it's about the ideology. Emma? Yes. So, yes, by the BBI not passing, of course, things have changed, and of course, now people need to go back to the drawing board and re-strategies. However, I will loosely state that. For the BBI not passing, that was something that, you know, we're also coming. We were just hopeful that it would pass, but then we also it's coming because of how the process was being carried out. And so now it's the mandate of leaders because Maena says that we need to have more youth stepping up. We have had youth stepping up for years. I mean, are they given a chance? The thing here should be then that we should have the people holding leadership positions give chances to youth. Having parties give party tickets to youth. And I agree with Maena when he says that we should not reserve MCA, you know, positions only, you know, for the youth who are just coming into politics. We should have systems where youth are nurtured. And as they are nurtured, then we place them in a position where they are able to take up leadership and not just on MCA levels, but, you know, to whatever heights they would like to represent people. And now this is a call to our leaders because, you know, those people who are vouching for BBI were talking about inclusivity more and change of governance structure. However, now they have a chance because even in the current constitution of Kenya, we have that docket of inclusivity. How about then we have our leaders now try and find a way of including more women and more youth into, you know, political space. Let's not wait for a law to be passed because we've seen people, you know, not respect the rule of law. We've seen people being high-handed and people not respecting the constitution and nothing is done. And so for people to say that this law has to be passed and this has to happen for one, two, three to happen is the wrong way to go. Because even you as a youth, when you're trying to get into the political space, people will ask you, what have you done for your people? Before you join us, what have you done for the people? And we should also be asking our leaders the same question. What have you done before you further this agenda of we have to have the constitution changing and policy being amended? What have we done? Because our constitution is inclusive, but then we have people who are defining rule of law and furthering their own agenda. And yes, as the BBI has, you know, fallen now, people have to restrategize. But then I know politics is a game of it's very dynamic and I like calling it game of thrones. And to, you know, to have a fixed mindset and especially in life doesn't get anyone far. So, yeah, it has fallen. People have to restrategize. But then as they are restrategizing, could we have and can we see our leaders do better? But now you still both of you are mentioning one common factor that we should just focus that the youths should go for the MCA positions but also other positions. Now, look at the current political structure. We have youths who are members of parliament. We have the parliament. We have youths who are members of parliament. We have youths who are senators. They are holding positions across the board, the youths. Whole positions currently as MCAs, MPs, senators and governors for some. The composition is still there. Youths are still there. And as we talk, we have youth leaders in almost every political party, including UDA. So, doesn't that nullify your point that the youths are being, you know, pushed towards particular positions? Emma? So, the youth are not being pushed. However, we are not having more youth represented because it's like, let me use an analogy of pilau in Kenya. You're being given pilau, you expect it to be a mixture of rice and meat. But then you get like in a ball, a very big ball of rice, there are only three pieces of meat or five. And then we keep counting. Oh, see, there is that one piece of meat. The second one, there's the third one. So, as much as we have youth representative in different spaces, it is we don't have enough youth represented. And also, let's have each ministry, as I had stated earlier, have a youth docket. Because it's time then we will have more youth represented in each ministry, and then we will have more youth in governance spaces. What are your thoughts to these governors who are in the second term? Should they just retire? Why don't you ban Wakai? Let me tell you, Nani Ram, before Emma joins in, once you test power, it's very hard to live. In fact, if you look at the lifestyle of the governors who are not elected in 2017, you find there is some difference. You find them actually desiring more power in 2022. Look at how Kaboggo is coming in. Look at other governors. Kaboggo is coming back again? Yeah, he is going to buy. So, the point is that these governors, they have their plan B. They have their interests. And once they have been elected, once they have been in this executive position, they can tell, in fact, they better buy for an MCS seat, but they continue being in power. They can go for MC. They better, I'm saying, I'm trying to move it at the lowest level. They better go to the lowest elective seat in our governance structure, but then be an ordinary Kenyan walking around on the streets. As long as they have some position there. As long as they have a position of power. So, you feel like it will be difficult for them to live power for this? It will be very difficult. And let me tell you, the reason is why they feel there's that difficulty is because for us as Kenyans, we have made elected leaders to be like demigods or to be like politics, political leadership is like a position of privilege. We need to look at politics from the point of sovereignty or look at it from the point of getting political leaders being people who are serving us. Servant leadership. Servant leadership, rather than just the position of privilege and position of power or control. I think that's why you find politicians will go to the lowest bit to ensure that they continue sustaining power or being in position of privilege other than serving people. Let me say this, as we continue, as we head to 2022 for the youths, we need to move the conversation a notch higher. We need to move the conversation not from the politics that we have currently, but to the conversation of how are we going to improve our economy? How are we going to have job creation? How are we going to have affordable health care? How are we going to have quality education? That is the kind of conversation as youths we need to put to our leaders on the table so that they can present good manifestos so that we can hold them accountable post 2022. Mina, when you say that, you know, once a person, a leader tests power, it's not easy for them to let go. In Africa, in Africa. I mean, when you state it like that, I agree. I mean, because we're talking about Kenyan politics as well, I agree. And I hear, not that I agree, but I hear you. The question I'm asking is, are you okay with it? Because when you state things like this, this is still focusing on the problem. We're not focusing on the solution. Mina, wait, wait, just hear me out first. You know, that is a greedy way of, you know, looking at, okay, that's a greedy stance from our leaders. And it's also, it's not right for us to look at it and say, oh, once they've said tested power, it's hard, you know, to live because Mina, look at it this way. It's not about our leaders. And the leadership positions they hold, they hold to serve people. And I like that you stated that, you know, we need to have leaders who are servant leaders in terms of the deliver what they are mandated to do to the people. And their mandate is to serve people. So what is the solution? The solution here is let our leaders understand that it's not about them. It's about people representation. Power does not start and stop with them. And this is a cycle. It needs to continue. We cannot be having the same people in the same places doing the same things. And then we expect different things. So let's hold our leaders accountable and also let's vouch for and push for, you know, once you have led and you have not, it's not about Tamram because you ask these people, the governors who have held their second term, should they go home? Should they remain? It's not about time. I mean, with the first term, if they have not fulfilled their mandate, those people need to go. That's how we should be looking at the politics of the country. They should go. It's not about how long they serve. It's about the quality, not quantity. And so if we hold the people accountable in terms of have they delivered their mandate, do we need to have you back because of the things you have started done and not done? And because of what you are promising your people? Or do we have a new back because you hold the position of power? And it's very hard to let go of power. And so because we, yes, yes, people, let's sit here and vote you in once again until you finish your term. That's the wrong way to look at it. And that's why I keep saying solutions. Because until we start looking at solutions and until we start changing these narratives to solutions, then we are just trouble shooting. It doesn't help. We're moving around the same amount. And then we are letting the oppressors win and us assuming the victim mentality. And that has never got as anywhere as a people. It has never got as anywhere. And let me tell you, when you are in a position of power and you are leading an ignorant majority, I'm using ignorant loosely because look at the BBI process. If the BBI was to pass, it was supposed to come from the people. But then did the people know this? No. But did our leaders continue to do things that were not right? Yes. Did anyone question? No. And that is the Kenya we live in. And that is the problem. And that is where our leaders thrive. Thrive at oppressing us. Because first of all, we don't know our rights. Secondly, we are ISIS people. We choose to keep quiet more. We choose to sit, to look at things. And instead of analyzing things and questioning and saying, no, this is wrong. You get. We are there saying it's okay. You are our leader. You see better. Let's, you get. And which is wrong? Which is wrong, Ram? I'm saying you pondering about what is she saying. No, let me tell you. There are people who have been doing things. The reason I say BBI failed is because people went to court. What is the stand of UDA? No, I can't speak on behalf of UDA. There is a spokesperson. I can just talk on general politics and how UDA is planning to do things. Okay. Yes. No problem. But now if you're looking, because you're the chairman of Forum for Progressive Future. Forum for Progressive Future. Yes. There are some aspects that she has mentioned. Yes. That I believe follow and I demand it. Yes. Of the forum for Progressive Future. Yes. That the things that you're trying to fight for. Yes. And the things that you're standing in for. Yes. You know, if you look at that, because you've been on the ground. Yes. And you've seen how people relate on the ground as they are trying to fight for the thing that they stand for. Yes. Do people on the ground understand what's going on? Do they understand their own rights? Do they understand the political ramifications of all these things concerning the BBI? Yes. Those who are in power and those who are going to vie for 2022. We are seeing so many people coming in to vie for presidential election. Even this singer Ruben Kigame is also vying for presidential elections. People are trying to change the narrative. Yes. You thought of that? Let me tell you, Ram, we have an educated mass. Let me tell you. She begs to differ that. Let me tell you. Kenyans, ordinary Kenyans know things how they are happening. They have radios, they have TVs, they are on social media, so they know what is happening. Kenyans know? They know. The only thing that you can tell them or the only thing I think they are not aware of is the consciousness of their rights and the power that they hold. But let me tell you, they know daily activities, the political activities that are taking place in our country. And they know when you're doing the right thing and when you're not doing the right thing. And for instance, and if you want to know that Kenyans know what is happening, look at the rallies that were taking place of the BBI or even the political rallies that take place in our country. Kenyans have read the BBI, they know about the BBI. They know about it and they can read hypocrisy in any conversation that is brought up. And this is how I will tell you or how I can show you that indeed they know what is happening. Today, I will tell you, like for instance, the conversation around bottom up. An ordinary Kenyan knows that the bottom up is about the affairs of the person at the ordinary, at the lowest level of the pyramid. An ordinary Kenyan can explain the bottom up economic model more than even an elite. Why? The political conversation around bottom up or even the trickle down. They know that the trickle down is more of resources coming from the top flowing downwards. And the bottom up is about generally starting the investments or starting the government priorities at the lowest level of the pyramid going up. And that is the kind of conversation that is going on on the ground. And let me tell you, for me, I interact with people on daily basis on the ground. And they know what is happening. They know who is doing the bottom up. They know who is doing the trickle down. They know who is doing BBI. They know who is doing, who is opposing it or who is finding an alternative way of improving the document. So let me tell you, Kenyans, by virtue of their access to information through media, radio stations and social media, they know what is happening. You can't just come and tell Kenyans that, you know, so and so is saying this. And indeed, contrary, the person is not saying it. Kenyans are going to tell you to your face that, no, you are lying to us. The person you are trying to oppose is actually promoting this other ideology. So let me tell you, in 2022, politicians better be careful. We don't fake ignorance. Let's not think that people can be duped into ideologies. That's what you're saying. Exactly. Politicians should be very careful. 2022, we have an enlisted mass. We have a mass that is actually demanding more from their leaders. And let me tell you, there's something in political sense that is called Overton Window. Citizens have set an Overton Window for their leaders. And the Overton Window is across or is in the economic conversation. So a leader who is going to talk about tribal outfits and tribal position, power sharing in 2022, he might find himself or herself outside the Overton Window. And that's why you're going to find people being thrown out of the political space and having a large turnover in 2022. I want us to wrap this conversation up. Throughout the whole time that he was talking, you are shaking your head. She seems to say that our mass is... Mine, I don't speak for myself. Let me speak for myself. He is interpreting what you're saying. Interpreting, yes. I want you to really interpret the start of the video. You asked, are people trying to change the narrative? That's what you asked Ram. Mina, you have missed the point spectacularly. And I will say that loosely, let me explain why. I have been on the ground. I run a foundation and I work with people on the ground. Let me tell you, we have people who are not enlightened. We have literacy levels in Kenya are so low, it is alarming. I mean, when you move from Nairobi to the ground, the kind of people you meet there are not educated. You tell them things and they're in shock. And you're wondering, are we in the same country? You understand? Now, when you say we have radios and we have televisions and people know what is happening, question is, are we being told the right things in these radios? Are we being told the right things in these televisions? Are people trying to further their agendas? I mean, we have propaganda selling like hot cake. You understand? It doesn't make it true. But then look at how a steamy gossip story just runs. People love good ideas. People love gossip. People, does it make it right? No. Does it make them informed? No. Then it makes them misinformed. Now, I've been on the ground. People don't know their rights. People do not understand their rights. People do not know the political implication or the implication of having a leader who does not serve their need or who is not there to give back to the people and actually fulfill his mandate. People don't understand the importance of good leadership. And let me tell you why. Look at the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. People are trying to put food on the table. The majority few who Mina is talking about, who would know? Who would care? Who will do well by themselves and by the people? They are too busy running their lives. They will, if any of you call for a rally today or let's say for a movement or trying to do some kind of demonstration, they will not be available. But while they want to ground will come, why will they come? Because of the 50 Bob, they will be getting. Because of the 100 Bob, they will be getting. And people subscribe to very good ideologies, things that make them feel good. And when you state, Mina, that Muna Enchi will speak better about bottom-up economy than an elite, there is a problem. That is a big problem because what is happening is their mindsets have been conditioned. Their mindsets have been conditioned to think this is a good thing. This is a thing that is going to work for them. But then how practical is it? Mina, let me finish. How practical is it? Because we have had the Constitution having very good ideas and things that should be put in place and structures and stuff. We don't see them implemented. So are we running with the idea because this idea will make this leader popular or are we running with an idea because it's indeed practical? And the question is Ram, what has the UDA done so far to help us see that indeed the bottom-up economy thing will work? What have they done so far? Or is it just an ideology for them to wait until they are in position of power? Then we are told when we get into power, we will do this. We are so used to feel good things, but then how practical is it? Then we will have leaders making excuses later. I want to wrap it up, this conversation, and I'm giving each one of you a minute to have a final word in regards to this whole conversation, youth and politics. What is your take home to those who are watching you today, just in 30 seconds each? Ram, my take home for the youth in our country is that we need to put our stakes high. We need to demand better from political leaders. We need to change the conversation from politics or sharing to economic conversation. This country, the current leaders are going to be acquitted to us. Before they acquit it, we need to demand high from them, and that is the prospects of our economy, job creation, wealth creation, affordable healthcare, affordable housing, access to quality education. Those are the kind of promises or the kind of conversation we should be hosting in our country. As we head to 2022, I would urge youths to actively participate in politics and elective politics, and they should not be on the periphery, being around boys or being engaged in negative politics of our country. I urge youths of our country, let us go for elective positions, let us influence the political direction that our country takes, and it should be on the economic agenda of our country. Alright, thank you so much. Emma, coming to you, 30 seconds. You take home to the Kenyan youth in regards to this conversation on leadership. Okay, so my last sentiment is this, youth, let us not talk, let us take action, let us start doing what we have been having conversations on. We need to leave the talk, and we need to live by example first, and we also need to be very conscious about the leaders we elect. Let's elect leaders with integrity, let's try and change our mindset. We are the future of the nation, and the back lies with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. The back lies with us. Youths need to be open-minded to come out. Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure. We should love this conversation again. Make it frequent. Especially the bottom-up economy, and the trickle-down whichever version that suits Kenyansu, we need to talk about that. Yes, most available for that conversation. Thank you so much, Maena Hauzid, Maena Karabia, and Emma Mongute, who are both youth leaders holding different capacities in different fora. It has been why in the morning, youth and politics, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. We have more in store for you coming up in a bit. This is why in the morning, my name is Ram Maguko. Keep engaging with us. Keep it Y254.