 Hi, welcome to Clock Talk. I'm Crystal here on ThinkTech on this Tuesday morning. We're going to talk about LGBTQ issues today. Now on one hand, there's been a kind of a nice wave of support and inclusiveness for this issue, particularly in the US, I guess. But in Asia, there are places that are having pushback and there's just a lot of complications. Is a complex kind of a rise in suppression of this issue? And why is that? And so today we're going to talk about the kind of impact in how the LGBT community is in Asia and how that impacts Asian Americans. It's an interesting bridge because we don't really talk about that crossover, in fact, it's very connected. So I have a brilliant honorary guest today with us, Justice McKenna. And first of all, we don't know, Justice McKenna is the burden raised in Japan and the Philippines, but more importantly, is the justice of the Supreme Court here in Hawaii. So we're very, very honored to have her here. And an advocate and a champion of women's rights and women's representation in the legal industry. So without further ado, let me introduce Justice McKenna. Welcome, Sabrina. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot for having me. Thank you. Now, there's someone to talk about your identity as an, you know, do you identify as Asian American or because you were born in Asia and yet you've lived here for so long, I feel like it's a very blurry identity issue. Right, well, I grew up in Japan and the Philippines. I attended, my father was American, my mom was a Japan Japanese who became naturalized. So, but I attended US military DOD schools in Japan and the Philippines. So I do identify as an Asian American, especially I think since my dad died when I was a kid and I was raised by my mom and so we spoke Japanese at home. And I came to UH undergrad. I do identify as Asian American. That's why I often include shizue in my name. Oh, okay, that's a, okay. But, you know, being here in Hawaii where it's so Asian American, people don't think about the connections we have to Asia in a deep sense and how that impacts kind of our value system. Yes. So when it comes to LGBT issues, there's a really interesting, you know, ways like with a conservative traditional aspect as opposed to today's modern kind of trends. Now, let's just break it up a little bit. I did a little research in the US apparently, the LGBT community kind of trends or kind of people who've come out openly have increased. I think the last year has been like up by 4.5%, which is unusually high compared to the last few consecutive years. Well, that's interesting. I wasn't aware of that statistic, but that makes sense I think, especially since the laws have started to change. I've always said that it takes legal change for people to be able to come out. I didn't really come out until after 1991 when Hawaii abolished employment discrimination and sexual orientation. And then I knew that I could be safe coming out. But up until then, people could be fired for being gay. Right? So you don't wanna come out if you're gonna lose the roof over your head. But what was the pivotal kind of catalyst in 1991 other than the legal aspect? Sure, well, it was the law and then I decided at that point I was leaving the Japanese company that I was working for. Okay. And I decided I wanted to go into public service. And at that point I wanted to be a judge, but I didn't get the judgeship, but I got to be a position as a system professor at the law school. So I was entering into public service in the government sector in the legal arena. I did become a judge in 1993, but I knew that the law would protect me at that point. And I knew that the law school and the judiciary, which in 1993, the Bayer versus Lewin case, the first court in the world to say that denial of same-sex marriage could be unconstitutional. That case just really is strength of my resolve to try to become a judge. And I just realized that the judiciary of the state of Hawaii would be very, very protective and respective of that. And they were. Clearly. You didn't find any kind of pressures or, you know. No, no, not in terms of my being appointed or just a supervision or anything like that. You know, just as in any other place, we're gonna hear a few comments here and there, but when those issues are brought to administrators' attention, it's, you know, it was addressed immediately. And Hawaii, for years now, we've had a bias and prevention and harassment guide, which clearly prohibits and all employees are trained, of course, judges, but all employees and staff are also trained on not allowing any type of bias or harassment based on all categories, including sexual orientation and gender identity. But the problem is as much as the law protects, you can't control the way people act outside. And so many families who, you know, even if they live in the States, they don't realize kind of the impact of maybe their traditional family, whether it's a religious aspect or the ethnic aspect that's kind of influenced the way their controls are suppressed in coming out or actually coming to terms with who they are. It's like, how much can they all really ultimately, I mean, I guess, you know what I'm saying? Yes, exactly. It's basically, it's down to the personal level. It's family that is most important. And unfortunately, I have found that it seems like based on some of the Asian influences here, not necessarily the Pacific Island influences because I think the Pacific Island countries, actually some of the Asian countries are traditionally very accepted of LGBT or, you know, especially transgender or different types of gender identity. But because of the more conservative trends in the last couple hundred years and people coming to Hawaii from Asia and those countries, the home countries, still being pretty discriminatory, I think it has become, in some ways, I think Hawaii, despite its liberal views and laws, a lot of people still don't come out. Yeah. Well, let's talk about some specific kind of extreme cases in Asia where, I mean, in the last few years, there have been increasing flows of kind of inclusivity in terms of opening up to same-sex marriage. But let's talk about Brunei, which is shockingly, horrifyingly, I talked about this with my daughter in the car as I drove to her school today. She's like, how is this possible? Do you care to, maybe for people who don't know the new regulation in Brunei against same-sex? Right, so homosexual sex and adultery is punishable with death by stoning now in Brunei. That's middle-ages. Yes, well, yeah, I think so. But, you know, I mean, I try to keep an open mind in the sense that there are many countries that think that the America is still very regressive because we still have capital punishment, where a lot of advanced nations don't, right? So. Wow, OK, but that's still shocking. You know, it's still kind of creating many, many ripples in the LGBTQ community. It's just unfathomable to think that you could die because of your just preference in gender. Right. But do you want to kind of touch on the different other Asian countries kind of in relation to that? Sure, so in general, you know, and I have to tell you that I'm not an absolute specialist, but I do follow some of these issues. 26 countries now allow same-sex marriage, and that was the conversation started with the Hawaii Supreme Court. And of course, there was a fight until 2015, and the United States Supreme Court has now held that the denial of same-sex marriage is a violation of federal constitutional rights. So that is the law of the land in the United States now. And before that, some Western European nations, and now 26 countries, but none in Asia. Now in the Pacific, we have Australia and New Zealand that now allow same-sex marriage. But there are no Asian countries that permit same-sex marriage yet. Wow. But there are some places that don't have legal ramifications of it, but then there's the social pressure. So there's kind of like an indirect way of controlling the population. Right, right, right, right. Like, you know, recently in the last couple years, I've been to Japan, Hong Kong, and most recently India to talk about some of these issues. And finally, India, the India Supreme Court, it's only September of 2018. That's right. That they abolished Section 377. The India Supreme Court ruled Section 377 of their penal code unconstitutional. And this was one of those vestiges of British colonialism that was in the law that basically criminalized homosexual activity. And when you think about it, it was only 2003 that the United States Supreme Court in Texas versus Lawrence, the Texas law, was finally ruled unconstitutional. The United States Supreme Court had upheld the Thotami law in Bowers versus Hardik in 1986. And so therefore, you know, it's still, it's not, it's kind of recent history. Hawaii, in its wisdom, abolished our law, I believe, in 1972. Hawaii tends to be a little bit more enlightened. We abolished capital punishment in 1941. So Hawaii is much more protective of civil rights. But yeah, it's 2018. India finally said this is, it's unconstitutional. People cannot come out if it's a crime, right? How long did they advocate for this punishment? Many years. And in fact, in 2009, the Delhi High Court had, that's like the Delhi Supreme Court of the state of Delhi, had ruled that it was unconstitutional. But the India Supreme Court overturned that in 2014. And then there was, you know, all this movement by additional politicians and legal advocates to have the India Supreme Court reconsider that 2014 decision. And finally, in September 2018, it was overturned. Okay, so that's a huge deal. It was a huge deal. But now you were there also on behalf of the East West Center to do a talk, and you mentioned something about how they needed to have more women representing the justice system. And do you think that that's kind of a big part of why the regulations are the way they are now with the lack of... Well, you know, I have always said that increasing the number of women within the judiciary and leadership does lead to greater justice. I believe so because I think all women, I think all women have experienced some level of sexual discrimination or sexual harassment. And so we can, we start from the perspective we understand discrimination. And I think, you know, as a feminist and I think feminist in general, it's not just about promoting women, it's about creating equal rights for all. And so I think having women within the judiciary really, really does change perspectives. I think that, you know, it was after 1972 in Pat Ciesmink's Title IX law, where the significant increase in women in the judiciary, women lawyers, women in law schools, then women in the judiciary, I think attitudes toward domestic violence laws changed, sexual assault laws changed in the United States. And that's something that I'm saying in India. I was actually invited by a law school, gender-global law school, with which UH does have a sister relationship. And we actually accept summer volunteers from externs from that law school in the summer because it's a, you know, India is an English common law system. Their education at that level is all in English so they can actually, they don't have a language barrier. Right, right, there's no excuse for that, but at the same time it's a very deeply rooted kind of traditional male-dominated culture. Yeah, exactly. And there's so few women. And it was interesting because I was interviewed by the news agency representative, a wonderful person, very, I think, very open-minded and a lightened person. But he was, you know, saying we now have three women out of 30 women in the Supreme Court. And I, and we only had one last year. And I was like, that's tokenism. You know, three out of 31 is tokenism. There's very few women in the High Courts, which is like the state's Supreme Courts, very few women. And I said, you know, really, you need to have a system. And how did they react to that? Like, were they respectful of that? Well, I think I was talking to the men and I was talking to some of the male Supreme Court justices. And they said, I think the ones that I'm talking to are the enlightened ones. Okay, so that depends on your kind of following. Exactly. You spoke to the really chauvinistic one. That'd be interesting. I'm not sure how that would cut. Yeah, I have hope for change. You know, I'm very careful for change. And I went to several law schools and there were many women law students and they're so bright and so driven. And, you know, I just have great hope for the future of India. And of course, Japan, my home country, I've gone, I spoke at the Gender Law Society for the first time a couple of years ago. They dedicated a conference to sexual orientation and gender identity issues. And that time, you know, I was open about my own sexuality and it was amazing because after I spoke, several people, several of the professors got up and they came out. Oh wow. People around me are like, oh my God. It takes somebody like you to open up and then people kind of trickle in and share. Right, people start opening up, you know. And of course, Japan, Japan doesn't have specific laws criminalized. It was only, I think, like from 18, in the 1800s for about eight years when Japan, they did have some laws criminalizing homosexual content, but that's not Japanese culture either. So we're back to the samurai culture. Yeah, the samurai culture, the monk culture, male society. Well, let's take a quick break and come back. This is a very juicy topic and there are so many issues with different specific Asian countries, let alone the gender categorization that we're talking about. So don't go away, we're gonna talk to Justice McKenna more on the LGBT issues in Asia and its impact on Asia-American, which we'll come back to shortly. Hey, loha, my name is Andrew Lanning. I'm the host of Security Matters Hawaii, airing every Wednesday here on Think Tech Hawaii, live from the studios. I'll bring you guests, I'll bring you information about the things in security that matter to keeping you safe, your coworkers safe, your family safe, to keep our community safe. We wanna teach you about those things in our industry that may be a little outside of your experience. So please join me, because security matters, aloha. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah! Aloha, I'm Wendy Lowe and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at two o'clock, live from Think Tech Hawaii and on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're gonna be talking about. Whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. Back here on QoqTalk, I'm Crystal talking to Justice McKenna about LGBT issues in Asia and beyond and in Hawaii and the impact. I mean, we're all global citizens, so how does it impact us? And what if you're a transnational and you're connected to both sides? Aha, that's where we are too. So back here in the studio, now, Sabrina, you talked about the kind of the impact in Japan even and the kind of the increasing support and embracing of these issues. Now, just to give a little rough idea for some people is that according to a survey I saw, Philippines tends to be the most gay friendly accepted place out of Asian countries, okay? This is according to the survey from last year. 73% agree that homosexuality should be accepted. 54% in Japan, 39 in South Korea. Those are just a few broad numbers. Then we've got Brunei, we just mentioned earlier. And Singapore where same-sex sexual activity is of course illegal up to two years in prison. Some are more blurry. Malaysia is interesting. Well, that was more specific. It actually said that anal and oral sex was up to 20 years of punishment. Wow, wow. And how do they prove that? You know, it's all these kind of, so on the legal aspect, how does this kind of like very personal relationship activity get translated into the law? Well, that's very interesting. Candidly, I don't know how the extent of privacy laws in those countries. In the United States, it would be hard for a police to just break into a home to see if a conduct was taking place. I really don't know what the laws are in those countries in terms of protection of privacy issues. But it is disturbing. You know, you said of the Philippines. There was a 2013 study that also showed the broad support within the Philippines, but what I was really heartened is the same as in the United States. When we looked at, for example, in Japan, of the support for people under the age of 30 for same-sex marriage and LGBT rights was like 80%. It was the older people. Yes, yes. And so I think it's internationally, globally, the trend is the younger people, especially with social media and awareness. It is getting better and better. Is it, though? I was going to ask you, does social media kind of aid in the inclusiveness of it? Or does it actually stir people who are kind of like trying to draw old things? Because you look at like terrorism. Social media is a platform for also enabling that. Right, right, right. And you know, one of the things, I also attended a media conference in India on social media in terms of the effect of the elections. But they also talked about the impact of people having all these WhatsApp groups. WhatsApp is the number one social media in India. And they're forwarding things through WhatsApp, false things too, like this person ate beef. So a mob comes and lynches and beats and kills them. Things like that too. So yeah, social media, you're right. It cuts both ways. It can be, but it increases exposure. So people can find resources much easier, right? The young people, if they have a smartphone, not everybody has a smartphone, right? But they can access information at least and get some comfort from that, even if they don't feel like they can come out themselves. You know, and people in India still are not really coming out. Not sure. And even in Japan, people are not really coming out. There are some movements, there are some cities or words within Tokyo that are now allowing same sex partnerships. Tokyo Metropolitan government just passed a law that should not allow LGBT and LGBT discrimination in the workplace. The Tokyo Metropolitan government just this month. Yeah, I think it just went into effect, April, 2018. Okay, so this will impact the younger generation more. Yes, yes, so things are opening up. There's still more movements. There's a bunch of cities that are now allowing and then some like public housing, depending on the city is allowing same sex couples, but still in terms of no, because the constitution says the consent of both sexes is the way it's interpreted. You'll see it. So that's how it's interpreted. There may be, I think there's some points of view that a constitutional amendment may be necessary in Japan to allow same sex marriage, but we'll see. But I think, okay, so that's the legal aspect. And then going back to the personal, I feel like, again, reading on some issues with Asians, it's not just the gender issue. It got family pressures because of the religious background, the ethnic, the cultural kind of traditional ways of being. And so in fact, I kind of wrote down, it's really quite sweet in India, this one guy said, India should create a space where I'd actually be able to make my family understand that it's normal. Right, right, right, right. And that's why when I go to India and I speak, I'm very open, I say I am the first Asian, Pacific American, Supreme Court Justice, an open member of the LGBT community. And the reason I came out, and the reason I, I'm not an LGBT rights specialist, but of course I care about these issues. And I care about civil rights issues. And when I've been in these Asian countries, I'm gonna talk about it. And I talk about myself because I think it's important for people to see the Asians in those countries to say, hey, wait a minute, oh! I guess you can actually have a life, and be LGBTQ. So but any event, the reason that I came out really is because my last position before I got this one in 2011 was to head the family court in the couple A. And there I learned some terrible statistics. I know you're aware of some of these statistics, but LGBTQ youth are four times as likely to attempt suicide. If you, LGBTQ youth from families that reject them are eight times as likely to attempt suicide, then LGBTQ youth that come from families that accept them. So it's a family thing. And then the most disturbing one to me was although, and this is an older study, but 80% of Caucasian youth came out to their, youth came out to their parents. It was 71% for Latinos, 61% for African Americans. And it was only 51% for Asian Pacific American youth in Japan, in the United States that come out to their parents. This is an older study. But it's the culture. It's the Asian, and then you relate that to the statistics about suicide, you worry. And it's very disheartening because I have, there is this one organization, NGO called Rainbow 808 here, and they do support a lot of youths, homeless youth. And a lot of them are because of the LGBT issues that they were kicked out of the home, and it's really, really starting. 80% of the homeless youth are LGBT too. Yeah, and people don't realize the impact. People kick their kids out of homes. And then the psychological aspect. I mean, we can talk on forever about this, but I'll try to draw it back, but I feel like people don't see the impact. Right. Because they're just kind of like swept aside. Right. And this is why we need to talk about this. Yes. But going back to the transnational aspects too. I mean, so going back into Asians, particularly how they're impacted, we mentioned family, and then there's some Asians criticize a lack of visibility. So it doesn't encourage them to come out. Right. You know, like look at media representation, I don't know, Hollywood, media, all that. Right. So how does that have to change also in order to kind of make it, but is it something that we should make normal? Like that's a question, right? Right. People are criticizing that movement. Right, exactly. And then, you know, in 2011 when I came out and I was appointed, you know, publicly, and I was appointed to this, when I was appointed to this position, I said, you know, I do hope that we come to a time that we don't have to say, oh, she is the first. Right. But unfortunately, we're still there in certain aspects. You know, we need the first to come out. So the seconds and the thirds and then the masses can start coming on. If you look at the statistics, up to 10% of the entire world population is probably LGBTQ, right? Because B is included, right? And so, you know, there's so many people if more people would come out. While I was in India, I met a woman who is a CEO, an Indian woman who is an out lesbian and she is, I think she's gonna help change the things and there was another gay male CEO. And we need more and more people coming out. But do you see all that kind of pushback within the kind of the majority dominant structure where they feel like, I mean, they're justifying of this is that this is against what normal. Right, and that's what I keep saying when I'm in India and I'm not an expert on it. But when you look back at the Hindu and the traditional texts, oh my God, this was all celebrated and transgender. You know, God's changing gender. And of course, India is progressive in terms of what they call the third gender. The Hijirah, the India Supreme Court in 2013 recognized the third gender, right? But traditional Asian cultures were like that too. There were, you know, Indonesia, I understand had like five cultures but people tell me and I don't know if this is true but it really was the traditional cultures were much more open but when the Mughal empire, which was the Muslim empire, they had much more conservative laws. And then India was colonized by Britain which had very conservative laws. So now, I'm hoping India goes back to its traditions of celebrating diversity because that is the traditional diversity of India just like, you know, I think that spread to the South Pacific, you know, the Hawaiian cultures. Right, so why has Hawaiian culture been so, or actually, island Pacific? Pacific Island is the reason it is so open. I think it's, well, because in terms of the openness, it's because traditionally. It's been natural. It's been naturally, it was accepted. I think that the repression came more from foreign religions coming in and imposing their values. So can we assume, the safeties assume that religion is kind of the root of this whole kind of reversal of our openness? Well, I'm not gonna comment on that. But, you know, I think it would be, it would, you have to recognize the impact of religious beliefs, yeah. But I think, and then going forward, I mean, we in this short limited time left on the show, what would you say to people who don't really understand why they should accept and include LGBT community as a part of naturalness? Well, you know, just if you go, my daughter was taking a course on sexuality at Boston University and she's like, mom, my God, in nature, animals, plants, nature. LGBT appears in nature. This is a natural phenomenon. And so I think people need to stop saying that this is unnatural because this does, it's been there forever. Exactly. And you know, you can't just repress all these people in the population. I just, I really wanna encourage the parents to accept their kids. That's the most important thing. Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that. And before we go to, I wanted to do a shout out for our event at the East West Center's International Woman's Group tomorrow evening at Holly Halivai. Justice McKenna is gonna be leading a discussion on gender justice and civil rights. So we can continue this conversation over because it's all relevant. So thank you so much for coming and sharing all your personal and valued views from the justice system. And I really appreciate this. Thanks so much. Thank you. We need to talk more. Thank you so much for having me. So family, listen and include. Thank you.