 Hey Eric, I can't hear you, you're muted. Oh hi Jerry, yeah, I have some time today and Stacy's been telling me about these calls, so I figured I'd join. Excellent, so I don't know if you know this and I'll clip it off as I probably should, but this particular call just Thursday call automatically starts recording when the first person shows up. Yeah, I saw that. And you were just screen sharing, but you were talking on mute, so. Yeah, that's fine. You could clip it out, it was just experimenting. What I was sharing was Ted Nelson's zigzag database system. Awesome, the presentation looked like it was old Apple graphics and we're like, that's really interesting, it's old Apple graphics. It's on a Mac. Do you want to put it back on screen for a sec? Yeah, well, I'll wait for other people to join. If you want to bring me in at a certain point in the call to do it, I can. That sounds great, we'll do it in the check-in rhythm. Okay, sure. Check out being something else entirely. Hey Stacey, hey Craig. Hello. Hi guys. Greetings. Oh shit, so I just realized I missed you completely, completely yesterday, I didn't think of it. I meant to have a go at the Wednesday gatherings. Oh shit, well, Stacey now had a very good strategy session. Excellent, glad to hear it. Where'd that word come from? That would be no W. George W, oh yeah, George W. It's a W malapropism. Yes. It's like putting food on your family. I remember now. Food on your family, that I hadn't heard. Oh, it's a good one. There's a whole side of it. There's a whole side of it, okay. Yeah, they know these Bushisms. Think you were going to say something? Oh, you put a link up. I was concentrating on how to do it. Excellent. It fits into what we were talking about yesterday. It was an article in Forbes featuring these five women economists. How good. And I didn't get to read the whole thing, but I had listened to a YouTube video that I actually posted I think in GCC about one of the women and it was building the case for capitalists of why they would want to stop climate change and, you know. So I definitely want to look into those women, which is kind of what we were talking about. Thank you. I've got a bunch on each of them in my brain. So what I'll do is I will add that link and then I'll add the different economists to the story. So they're easy to find from the story. And then I'll add the Forbes article to the call today. This is the call instance. So it's links all the way down. Hey Klaus. Good morning. Good morning. I'll wait one more second. I want to start up a thought for today's call in my brain. Yeah, the last article I was reading before sort of joining this call was about AI killer robots. Like the next revolution in military affairs is basically autonomous lethal things. It's like, oh good. That's science, bad science fiction movies are closer to us than we think. They just do it all off the planet maybe on the moon somewhere. That would be lovely. Yeah. That would be really lovely. And yeah. Hey Pete. So why don't we start in on our normal rhythm and why don't we go Craig, Eric, Stacey? Yeah, just checking I'm not muted. You are just fine. We are coming through five by five as they say in the radio world. Absolutely, yeah. No, I got a message here about low system resources. I've had far too many things open. So I spent the last few minutes closing things and I just wondered if I had muted myself. Yeah. I've had a great week. I got my second Pfizer shot on Tuesday. And along with the other expats we were all at the local hospital too. This is a free shots from the government which has surprised and pleased us all greatly. And along with the others we all shared that common feeling having gotten the second shot. So relieving and uplifting. The cloud is dissipating and we're looking forward to getting out again. And then the news came through that my daughter who's 13 along with all other teenage school kids are gonna get two Pfizer shots during the month of October. Wow. Well done. Well done Thailand. Decided in Thailand. Yeah, so the schools can open first weekend November. She's been at home for five or six months now. Pretty awful really. She's handling it very well but there's nothing like going to school was there and all the social life around that and everything too. So that's all been uplifting. And in my work, I'm so excited and pleased. I discovered a way of packaging an enhanced website by enhanced website. I mean a progressive web app which is a website with a service worker that makes it do things that ordinary websites can do. You can package those up and create app bundles which you upload to Google Play and to the Microsoft Store and get listed there. Using an absolutely super tool created by Microsoft called a PWA Builder. And I did that this week and I've got both my main products now listed in both stores. So yay, it's been an exhilarating week. I'm very pleased. That sounds awesome. Love that. It's funny. The second vaccine psychology is really interesting because I remember early in pandemic realizing that I was treating the outside world like Matt Damon in the movie, The Martian. Like every walk outside was like an EVA and anything could kill you, right? And you just had to be really careful about everything. And then you kind of get used to it and so forth. But at second vaccine, you're like, oh, okay, so the lethality of everything out there, like things could bite me but they're not likely to kill me now. So it's really interesting. And Pete, I don't know from your streaming on the emergent event sense-making, have you been hitting a lot of stuff about the psychology of the moment? Which moment? So Delta, basically the Delta wave and all of that because there's, I think there's like a particular psychology of this wave because we're kind of jaded, anxious, tired, overstressed, a lot of people have loosened their own protocols for what to do. There's, the politics are just as bad as ever, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so our data collection has been mostly, it's largely U.S. So, you know, it's a particular shape of the wave, particular Delta phase. Different countries go through it at different times. All of the things that you just mentioned, another thing I would add is you can see some of the real anti-vax people kind of shifting, we had a decent number of stories about, you know, going to an ICU and it's completely full of COVID patients. And most of them are regretful, you know, that they're very sick and that they didn't have the vaccine when they could have. Another little blip is the anti-vax radio hosts dying. So we're up to six or something like that. You know, people who were rabidly anti-vax and spreading that and now they're dead. So that was, it was interesting to watch that kind of in the news, how that gets covered and what people think about it. Mostly a lot of kind of disappointment, a lot of fatigue from the healthcare system, the people working in the healthcare system. They're getting, you know, they get kind of both ends of it. They feel like their company isn't protecting them very well. They're overworked and underpaid and understaffed. And then they get a lot of patients who don't really need to be there, who could have avoided being there just by getting a vaccine, but who decided not to. And then some of those folks are very angry and not all of them, some of them are kind of repentant, but that some of them are very angry and it's like your fault that I'm in the hospital. It's your fault that you're not giving me Agri-Mectin. It's your fault that I can't breathe, it's, you know. And they still have to kind of take care of these folks and then watch other folks who, you know, have heart problems or need emergency surgery to get into the ICU because it's full of COVID patients. Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a few of the skeptic denier types who die not wanting ever to think that they died of COVID and like the doctors like you're dying of COVID and it's like, fuck you, like, you know, no, I'm not. You gave me bad care. Right, exactly. So it's a mess. Another thing I happen to know, Wendy Elford and I talk every week and so they're obviously in a different phase. They're just getting their first vaccines, you know, and they've had a lot of strict quarantine in different states. And Wendy's in Australia? She's in New South Wales. She's in Canberra, which is between Melbourne and Sydney and she's got, you know, friends and stuff around. So they're pretty good at doing the quarantine. They don't have the political polarization around vaccination. And the striking thing is that unlike countries like Israel or the US, Israel and US have lots of ICU and emergency room capacity because we have lots of violence and gunshots and things like that. Australia has many fewer ICU beds per thousand and they're pretty scared about it. Both sides of the political aisle are, you know, it's like we can't afford to like fill up those beds and a trip our healthcare workers because, you know, we're too small of a country to do that and we're not set up for that. And I had not had that thought that you just said for which sort of bittersweet thank you which is that we have many more ICU cases because we have so much violence. Yeah, that's a weird thing. I had not realized that. So it gives us this buffer capacity at pandemic times. Yeah, Marcus, that's the proper gesture for that thought. It's crazy. And all of this is reminding me that like the, I think it was a Vietnam war where you figured this out. The golden hour for gunshot wounds and for battle wounds. Like if you can get somebody into care within the hour and stop their bleeding and keep them from dying within the hour, the fatality rate goes way down. And so we get wars like Vietnam where many more people came home badly, badly injured and in Iraq and Afghanistan we figured out how to patch people together who would have died in previous wars. Just simply would have, we would never have been able to save them. So there are many more. So Iraq and Iran, they lost limbs but they didn't die. Right, that will even severe mental, severe brain injuries, whatever, but still we save them. Yeah, that works for strokes and heart attacks too. If you get quick care. And then of course we've gotten now so that if you've got a stroke or a heart attack or something like that and you show up at the emergency room you may or may not get treated. Right, exactly. My mom had a stroke last December and the first question from care was when was the stroke? Cause there's a four hour window to administer something that will help a lot but outside the four hour window it doesn't help at all, it might hurt. So and we didn't know exactly what had happened so it was not administered. So there we go. Anyway, thank you. Stacey, Eric Coles. And Stacey it turns out that the article you just pointed to in Forbes I was gonna screen share for a sec. I already had in my brain from where it was published I think before Forbes. So I've connected it to the link for today's call but here's Mariana Mazzucato, Stephanie Kelton Esther Duflo, Kate Rewish and Carlotta Parris. And then I connected to reimagining capitalism and the world on fire, et cetera, et cetera but over to you in the booth. Yeah, so I had a nice call with you, Jerry yesterday and I'm guessing you're like me where I got up and now I have all these different ideas. And I'm like maybe I should shape it this way or which is the best way. That never happens to me, Stacey. I am iron solid on a path and I just stick to that path. I knew you would understand. But what was nice is after the call the things that I came across like this article or a video I watched just confirmed. Yeah, I'm on the right track because it's coming after the fact. I didn't see it before, it's coming now. So that was nice. I have a little bit of a headache now which has slowed me down from further reading or doing more. And I'm happy to be here because I really do feel that it's the social weaving that's the missing piece. And with that I just wanna say I don't know Ingrid but nice to have you here. And I don't know if that is no good. We do. Okay. Cool. And I also want to report and I had a lovely conversation with Judy Benham yesterday who and I wrote this in the matter most but I figured I'd reported back in generally she had carpal tunnel surgery on her dominant right hand like over a month ago and underestimated how that was gonna sort of knock her out. And in particular, knock her off of keyboarding and all such things but it's been kind of a welcome respite in some sense. So she's doing fine and sends her love. And yeah, so that was good. I was worried that we hadn't sort of heard from her for a long time. Eric, do you wanna go back and show what? Well, I wanna talk a little first. Excellent, sounds great. Yeah, hi everybody. I'm Eric Rangel. I'm a friend of Stacy and I know Jerry from the Digital Life Collective. So, and just a comment. I was trying to find the link naturally by searching and I couldn't find the Zoom link. I had an email Stacy. So if there's an easier way to post these somewhere for people searching, it would be a good idea. So it sounds like you might not be on the OGM mailing list because I sent them in my group. Okay, so I'll make sure you're not. Okay, thank you. So I live in Pennsylvania. I work in IT full-time. So, but I've been interested, yeah, since I got into dig life and started exploring other social networks, Zoom calls. Yeah, but interested in other technologies and people who are working on them. Now, what's interesting when I look back, the experience in learning Zoom became valuable for these times. Like the time that I spent being on calls and seeing what you could do with Zoom, I actually helped my synagogue with hybrid services and I've become a key person to point out things. For example, the spotlight, the rabbi. So people can see her, yeah. Does that make you a xanter? Yeah, I guess, whatever. Yeah, there's all kinds of Z words these days. I'm just saying, it's not a canter only. Well, there's a word called gabai, so a zabai maybe. Yeah, okay. Yep, so now today is a Jewish holiday and I have flexibility. I could tune into Zoom services later and be part of the group, but I could also enrich myself. And for me being isolated so much, it's important for me to get out and I'll be actually doing an exhibit next Saturday in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania at a guy who owns a retro computer museum store. It's really cool. He's been collecting all these old equipment and he organizes it and there's gift shops. They make unique photo cards of old computer ads. That's pretty cool stuff. Okay, so one interest I have and what I'm gonna be exhibiting on is Ted Nelson, his work and what his concepts are. So earlier I was testing a screen share of his Zigzag database system. I don't wanna do it now. I'd rather have everybody check in and maybe at the end of the call I could share a little about it. But I'm gonna be demonstrating his word processor, Jot. He had the original concept of what a word processor should be and to you. If you want after, sorry. Sorry, Allison, if you can hear us, could you mute your mic? Oh, sorry. No worries. We're just over here in your conversation. Thanks. Yeah, thanks. So, see Ted Nelson, he had to design things the way he wanted to. He figured out which combinations of keys would make a word processor work the way he wanted to where it's easy to move a paragraph, easy to move a sentence. And I could demonstrate that on an Apple computer next week and people can come up and play with it. And I also have Jeff Raskin's Swift system, which is his, it became the cannon cat, if anybody remembers that, which was only sold for six months, but he had the original ideas and the patent for that. So I was able to use that patent to resurrect the code and get it running on an Apple. And I could demonstrate that now. If you wanted, I'm gonna share a stream for just a second because here's Raskin. Yeah. Who's very famous and died young, unfortunately. Yeah, I know. And I don't think I have Swift or the cannon cat. Yeah, cannon cat and SWYFT is the name of it. Cannon C-A-T or K-A-T? Cat, like the animal. With the animal, okay. I don't have that and SWYFT. Okay. I'll send you a- I got stuff to look up. This is terrible. I feel naked here, you've exposed me. Yeah, so I will send you a YouTube that I did for a Kansas Fest presentation. That's an annual meeting of Apple enthusiasts where I talked about the cat and Jeff Raskin's work. So it's on YouTube. Actually, if you search for my name on YouTube, I have a whole channel and presentations and stuff. So COVID has made me into a video producer, accidentally. And I like to just really just express myself without too much editing and really try to use everything I can for communication, like the subtitles or whatever I can do in my presentations to really get to the point, not bore people with all this pattern filler. So yeah, and so I'd love to see things happen, like these visions that Ted had and Jeff come to life again because we're living in an information overworld and your brain is one way, it's one approach, but Ted envisioned a whole global network which would have really helped because you'd have links to every source and you could follow transclusions where you the same materials quoted in different documents and he had a system for indexing it all and it just never got anywhere because like Netscape and all the way the history of computers, the browser and Xerox PARC design, so his designs, they couldn't compete but he was ahead of his time. So I'd love to talk with anybody who's interested in about these. And you're mentioning sort of some of the patron saints of OGM in a sense, Ted Nelson, Doug Engelbark, Ben Iver Bush, a bunch of other people who've had these visions of what information might look like. And some of us have met some of these people. I met, Ben Iver Bush died before, I think any of us were born, but I've met Nelson and Engelbark and I'll just screen share Nelson here. But a lot of these people have brilliant visions and then we're stuck by being stuck to their visions kind of. And I had a, there's this thing called Project Xanadu that got started out of Nelson's vision to try to play out the hypertext system that he wanted. And I visit one of my first articles about this kind of stuff as a tech analyst a long time ago was to visit Project Xanadu in Palo Alto. And Roger Gregory was their CEO. And Gregory was like the geekiest geek I've ever met to this day. It's amazing, yeah. It's actually sort of sad to shoot the biggest one really early, but anyway, long description. But I wrote an article about Xanadu and in the article back a very long time ago. Nice. I said, Xanadu will be out in two years. And this might have been 25 years ago. And then they kept changing the date. They said XU88, it'll be out in 88. But back in 79, they said that. And then imagine my surprise might be this article by Don Xanadu's launch or I don't remember which one, but imagine my surprise to read an article five or six years ago about Project Xanadu saying they're going to be out in two years. So I wish that there was a way to get more of these ideas in the world actually useably and usefully, right? And if Yuri were on this call he knows more about Transclusion than most of us. But it would be nice to have a conversation for how those features get boiled into every tool. So what we have are demos. Like you can run a Windows demo, a Mac demo and see his ideas in a limited sense. My vision is to, can this be brought forward into today's like virtual worlds? But in 3D, just even on a computer screen where you can navigate in 3D using the orthogonal structures that he proposed. Sweet. Pete, what's the best channel for some of this on? Are you on our Mattermost server as well? The Pete's Mattermost server? I haven't been on for a while. So I might be on there, but just send me the new links and I'll sign up if I'm not. I'm just wondering what channel is the best one for this kind of conversation about history, future, height, protects and all that. The best one is probably Tools and Technology. Although you could get some interest in the Flotilla channel and maybe even Massive Wiki. Cool. Could maybe use another channel for, Tools and Technology is actually pretty close. But we could have a retro computing thing or a knowledge system thing that we don't, yeah. That sounds great. Let's use that one and just post a few things and see who's interested between calls between our Thursday calls and see what's up. So someone new, essentially here, I do feel overwhelmed, overloaded with all the things that you're doing and trying to move forward and how do I get oriented? Is a question, where do I start and where do I contribute? So these will come out as we work. Thank you. Everybody who feels similarly pleased like jazz hands. Nobody? Everybody who doesn't come by me on Matrix and check it out. Yeah, yeah. Wow, cool. I'm kidding. Don't come join me on Matrix unless you're driven to. So Eric, thank you. And we'll, at the end of the call, we'll come back to her for some screen share. That'd be great. Klaus, John, Mark. And I mean, Mark Tebow. Yeah, coming back to the vaccination mess. You have to ask the question, is there some logic to this madness? And there absolutely is because Congress is in the middle of the reconciliation bill, which is completely dropped off the public's attention and it's hard and heavy what is being negotiated there. I was in a meeting, invited yesterday representing business climate leaders with Senator Merkel. That's some sort of Senator Biden and several other members of Congress regarding the carbon tax that is under discussion as part of funding this bill. Of course, we, that's our mission is carbon fee and dividend. In the big conversation is, then should we include fertilizer, nitrogen fertilizer from the bill, right? Which of course, for the commodity course is extremely important, which of course for the regenerative movement is extremely important to not exclude fertilizer because it is making a horrible mess in the environment and it's basically the life plot of row-corp farming, right? You can't grow a monocorp without synthetic fertilizer which is made from natural gas and tons of pesticides made from oil. So we want the carbon tax applied to fossil fuels, farm inputs. So those are big fights going on right now and the public is completely left out of the conversation. Even within the NGO network that I'm linked up with, they're not really conscious of what is happening there. So this whole conversation there, this is like abortion and now it's vaccinations. This is like this proverbial red flag that the bull charges into. So we are in an interesting position with Citizen Climate Lobby because I'm coming out with this webinar. I'm just gonna post it again here. So we are going to exceed 1,000 registrations today and we have five more days to go. So we'll probably hit 13, 1400 people. And these are professionals. I mean, this is all from LinkedIn. These are the NGO leadership. This is congressional offices. And we're talking about decentralizing agriculture basically, now we're talking about getting out of chemically focused farming. But then we also have a webinar scheduled for December that's focused on commodity cores. And the topic will be alignment more, it's not changing, but it is climate adjustments focused. So it's a really interesting time. And I'm having discussions with our panel. We are going to script the conversation which this is not some random talk. We are very, we are aligning the conversation. So it's like a Disney movie scripting the conversation. So because we want to create a story. The story is from the needs of the farmer to the needs of the farmer to, I mean, for what the farmer needs to be doing to restore his soil back to health to what the markets need to do to accommodate the farmer in this transition. And I posted yesterday on our open channel. I mean, I was really excited about seeing this cook show up to our Jewish friends here. I mean, my daughter married a boy from Tel Aviv and then I was over in Israel visiting her, my son-in-law's uncle is actually working for an agricultural company and they're consulting overseas in Africa, primarily on agricultural installations. I mean, the Israelis are cutting edge when it comes to agriculture, absolutely, right? And to see now that it's great what you have done in Israel, but all your neighbors are basically starting to run out of water, starving and creating massive dislocations of millions of people because Syria, basically the mess in Syria started because the farmers ran out of water and couldn't go food anymore. So this is now, when you listen in on these wonderful conversations here, there is now a recognition that food is intricately linked to the health of the entire planet, you know, to our climate, to our ecosystem, biodiversity. To our politics. And geopolitics because food is politics, absolutely. And so, rather than starving some people into submission, maybe we should help them grow their own food so they stay peaceful and worry about their own things, you know. So anyhow, yeah, so that's my focus right now. It's really zooming in on this webinar and doing final touches on shaping the story we would like to tell. That sounds great, Klaus, thank you. Let's go, John, Allison, Pete. Good morning. So, last couple of weeks, actually, people that I have some responsibility for have their medical intervention needs have escalated and that has meant that I've had to spend a lot of time dealing with that. It's kind of taken me away from things like the topics we discuss and things that I would like to rather be spending my time on. But just to bring it back to this conversation, I too, Jerry, you probably knew him better than I did, but I've had several conversations with Ted Nelson. And it would be really interesting to say what parts of that vision to rank the parts of the vision in terms of their attainability with existing or projected future technology, number one. And then number two, an interest that would might be an OGM interest, certainly be my interest, is which if any of the Ted Nelson visions would help counteract disinformation? Just off the top, they wouldn't. I mean, it's a combination of the tool plus the policy, the tool plus the design. And we don't really have the design because we don't really have the tool, we don't have the fluency yet in the use of the tool, but I just have this intuition that there's something there, or there might be something there. It would be worth the drilling into that. And so I'll stop there in terms of my check-in and good luck and keep going. Thank you, Eric, please pick up. Yeah, I just wanna comment on that. I did a video where I walked through some ideas I had where I just drew out on paper and it's on my YouTube channel as well, but I did think how sense-making could be improved with Ted's ideas of tumblers and having personal areas which you can then share in a web of trust with groups of people and build your sense-making and have real good discussions with rich metadata for, yeah, to see alternative points of view and for helping people to see other information that they may not find on their own, but it's outside, it has to be decentralized and the decentralized web has technologies that if you start about 25 projects and make sure they all do what you want, you could get it done, all right? That's my comment. But is this like awkward collage of things you need to do together to make it actually sort of work, which someone's gonna like smooth together into some easier to use off there, I think. But think about long-term, like say somebody sets that vision, like by 2050 we'll have this system. Well, can you do that? Can that happen if you had a John F. Kennedy making that a goal or something? Exactly, Eric, I should put you together with a Belgian friend, Peter Hinson. I put him in the chat earlier. He bought a church in a little town in Belgium and then converted it into an apple chapel. And the rose window over the door when you walk in is actually the Atari logo. Oh, God, yeah, that's hilarious. Which is lovely, right? And then you walk in and there's like, from the early Apple one, pretty much every model, the 2E, the 2, whatever. Yeah, sounds like my house. I have every early model. Do you maybe want to talk to him because I want to donate something to him or whatnot? He's got Alisa, of course, and I love him, so. Oh, sure. I don't know. It was lovely. That's cool. Like you care about the history of these things. I mean, there's lots of people who, they start collecting all this stuff and then they can't figure out what to do with it and where it should go. Exactly. Yeah, so there are rescues that people do, garbage dumps to rescue things. Okay, that's another tangent. There's all these tangents. Yeah, so, okay. And then Pete, you asked a good question. Like why didn't we, why haven't we built these technologies? Like another Ted Nelson, Doug Engelbar question, why didn't we adopt their ideas? And I'll give my own partial version of that, which is we did adopt huge punks of their technology, like overlapping windows on a bitmap display with a mouse and all that kind of stuff is now standard share. We're all sort of using stuff that completely came in. And then hypertext is like the juice of the web except for some of the details. And in particular, someone once wrote, and I don't remember where, that Steve Jobs gave us personal computing and then just didn't understand the interpersonal part of it. And Doug's system was, the augmented learning system, but it was really about the social nature of thinking together. And nobody got that. So the superficial windows-y stuff, absolutely stuck and was carried through by Alan McCain and a bunch of others. And then we got stuck on the social. And what's curious to me is like, why is the social and the connectedness part so difficult to get? Like, well, why is that so hard for people to understand? And some other people understand it deeply. So networking starts in other places and now we take the internet for granted. But I heard at one point a story that Steve Jobs was walking through the cubicles and somebody, one of his engineers was working on something and he says, what's that? And he's like, well, I've got this networking thing where we connect to network together the max, and you just hook them together with these little barrel connectors. And he says, no, you're not, picks up this a gear and throws it across the room. Yeah. And like later you get Apple Talk and whatnot, but don't know why those things happen. Go ahead, Eric. Just another comment. So think about the key idea of letting the data exist in separation from the presentation. Now, think about what you could do in a 3D virtual reality or augmented reality environment with having access to the data structured with the rich metadata linking that Ted proposed. That's where I see its potential. Okay. Which is its own longer tangent that I won't pick up right the second is the whole notion of 2D, 3D and how they interact in exchanges like really rich as well. I'm sorry, Julian's not on this call because he's one of our stronger sort of 3D. Wait, Julian just joined the call as I said his name. That was eerie. Hello, Julian dropping in from outer space. That was brilliant. Eric was just saying that some of the places that this interface stuff was gonna go is into the third dimension and all of that. And you know, virtual spaces and so forth. And I was like, too bad Julian's not on the call because he click. Somehow the audio got through. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It made it through the inner tubes, the ether tubes or something like that. How are you feeling? Better. I'm hoping to spend my day up to the neck and tech. Excellent. Glad to see it. Didn't even mean to rhyme. That was good. You're a poet and you don't know it. Cool, let's go back to our cue for a bit and go Alison, Pete, Mark, Caronso. So it's you, Alison, yeah. All right. Well, good morning from Northern California. I am mostly unable to follow most of the conversation about Jack because it's a really deeply into places that I'm unfamiliar with. I do notice that we are a collective of certain demographic here. And I just, I tend to notice how that directs our thinking and conversation and things like that about what information is valuable broadly. And of course, I'm just gonna share, I guess. My passion has been for a long time on healing economic trauma. You know, I talk about that kind of stuff and building and cultivating economic ecosystems and how do we share knowledge of theirs? It's a technology piece of it where I find in my other threads that are generally filled with techies, coders from all over the world, but mostly tend to be of the white male persuasion, right? Which is fine. It's been great people. And one of the things that comes up a lot is how much idealism there is in wanting to create systems that work for everybody, but that community is where it gets really, really challenging. You know, we're trying to create community, but God, people, God, people getting along. That's really where it's hard. And I invite this consideration of we can get to the moon when our brains work collectively towards a specific goal. And we can come up with so many different technologies and that it is absolutely a possibility to address the delicious challenges that we get from the charge that happens in our relationships between people and our differences in understanding and our differences in perspective, that that charge is like an atom. It's like this ball of energy that's just waiting to engage with curiosity in order to release the potential that it has for a synergistic learning that always we are in relationship. And so when it comes to technology, just kind of like I'm interested right there in this quality of our tech, our problem-solving brains being applied to opening up that relational capacity that we have as humans to connect with one another, sort of another frontier that isn't just brushed under the human side of tech. And one of the things that actually strikes me with that is our problem-solving abilities so quickly go towards problem identification. And what in that says something about ourselves and our own psychology and our own perspectives and further oftentimes in our laudable heroic efforts to problem-solve, we want to identify the source of the problem. And so oftentimes we get towards blame quickly. And in open global mind, I'm finding a continuous pattern of really trying to be open about where we find a myriad of intersecting crises that we feel need to be urgently addressed. And yet we look at the crises and we tend and I am a little bit skeptical of myself. That we, in blaming others in any time, in any form, that we might need to check that. Where is there an inherent flaw in our open global thinking if we're automatically under the assumption that somebody is doing something wrong? That's it. That's kind of what I want to share. Thanks, Allison. And that's a bunch of different related important things. We have struggled a lot with diversity here. We very much understand that we're mostly white men and heavily geeks. Stacey, you are like a phenomenal trooper to hang in there with us and ask good questions all the time. Really appreciate that. And we have a, on the matter most, we have a channel to try to address this and my own approach to this has been not to, hey, let's rally everybody and mix up this, let's make the Thursday calls really diverse, but rather to go out and try to be helpful to more diverse communities than we have and I am, than we are. And if by chance, those people decide to come over here and join us, that would be great. But if you're a person of color right now in the middle of Black Lives Matter and everything else that's going on in the world, you'll likely have more important things to do than maybe be on these calls, I don't know. But I would love to increase diversity of these calls. It's just hard. And then second comment on the diversity and the geekiness of it, there's sort of OGM as a thesis has this yin yang soft hard side to it where the soft side is all the squishy stuff about trust and vulnerability and presencing and bridging the cultural divide and facilitation and all that. And we spend very little time there and the facilitators who've come through the conversation haven't hung out and stayed in the conversation that much. So BlackBill, global facilitators like Nancy White are at the periphery listening in on us, but she's not spending her time hanging out in here, which may be a function of what we're choosing to talk about entirely. So I'm alert to that. I'm trying to figure that one out. But also a lot of the things we're trying to chew on in some of the subsidiary calls in OGM, like Mondays, Free Terries, Rain Calls, or the Build OGM calls, there's a lot of geeky stuff we're just trying to puzzle through and figure out like the question that Eric put forth a moment ago, which is what if we separated the data from the tools? That is a huge thing for us. And we're actually trying to work on that Eric actively. Like that's a really important thing. Pete is building massive wiki on top of markdown files, all of which is too geeky for the point being made here. But he's doing that on purpose to solve that problem. So I think that the many people here interested in these things are interested in chewing on some of the geeky things. Go ahead, Alison. Yeah, and in no way did I mean to, I was just saying, I really couldn't contribute to what had been said. And I didn't mean it as a criticism in any way because I am jumping into a conversation that was far precedes me. And it's actually super rich and educational, wonderful and all of that stuff, which is why I show up. And I'm listening with care because I really want our conversations to be useful, fruitful for our society as a whole and enjoyable for us here. But sometimes what it is we're talking about very much attracts and repels different kinds of people. And if I'm having a great time talking about the Apple Chapel and the history of computers and just totally geeking out on Jeff Raskin, that's probably a turnoff for a bunch of people that I'm not aware of, right? Well, let me say, and I see that Stacey has her hand up. So I want to hear what you have to say, Stacey, but I also feel like I might have put you on the defensive on something that just absolutely did not mean to do it. Well, I'm actually, I'll be quite explicit. I think it might have been inspired by reading the Overstory, reading the research by Susan Simard, who had a lovely story about how she worked in the field of forestry and Timber, I'm not sure if you were aware, Susan Simard wrote the book, yes, that's right, Finding Mother Tree. And so her research has been at the forefront of this movement towards a greater understanding of our interconnectedness and life and the necessity of each part of the ecosystem, right? To fulfill the health of all parts. And I find it really, really important right now I'm using actually forest bathing, right? And I'm teaching my class, my economics class in a little mini forest behind school. And we're talking about the purpose of a tree, it's our personal purpose. And so we can get to the purpose of an economy before we get to its functions and understanding that. And I find it incredibly valuable when we take that larger perspective, find out a tree view. And so that broader view for me has been really an important one. And I'm finding that I'm concerned about some of the traditional mental frames of looking at politics deeply in an agitated way of, oh my God, I can't believe these people are doing that thing or looking at climate change. In fact, climate change, if we say climate change we're automatically in a place of fighting against it. Proving that it's real still, right? Fighting against the forces of it. When it comes to the vaccine thing, it's just it replicates another model of this sense of I know the answer and whoever's not on board with my solution is misled. Or stupid or all of these other things. And I find that that is an area for me that is of interest. And to me, fascinating as well. Stacey, I'll be with you in just a sec. In fact, Stacey jump in now and then I'll jump in. Well, I was just gonna say, Allison, I support everything you're saying and I would love to direct you to the call that I had with Jerry yesterday which is in the generative comments. And I put a comment which I ended with, I want the idea of so towards increasing diversity and instead of looking at the problem like switching that thinking, what I'd like to see are these beginner mindset calls which I think will increase that diversity because people come for different reasons and it weaves in the social part of giving your opinion. So for example, Jerry you might be better at explaining what I was talking about yesterday than I would. You're doing great. But my interest was really looking at the values that we would want businesses to have. And I particularly, particularly like the idea of looking at what some of the female economists are saying and I put it in the chat before you got here because I think that one way that will increase diversity is if we invite these women in to give their opinions not like Jerry had suggested women's issues. I don't think that's the way to do it at all. There are not separate issues. I don't wanna be talking about women's issues. I wanna be talking about life's issues but to have these beginner calls where people are just getting to know each other and you don't have to come unless you really wanna hang with the people. I see, I go to a call because of people there. I wanna create a place where I'm gonna wanna be. I wanna learn but I wanna learn with people that I respect. I wanna hear what do you think about this? What do you think about that? I think that after those beginner calls then you find out who's interested in what because Jerry brings up, oh this person, this is what's going on here. People can go to that after the call. Somebody else says, we're interested in this. I think that's a good way to organize but to have that center place where it's like a meeting call but where you're talking about the same topic. And I don't know, I'll stop here because I don't know if I even address the points I wanted but everything you said, Allison, I totally support it. I think it's important and I think we can do it. And I'd like to, thank you, Stacey. And I'd like to ask a clarifying question, Allison, which is there's a way of interpreting what you had said as, well, there's just no facts on the ground. We can't agree that anything is actually real like the threat of something change, like human caused anthropogenic climate change, for example, that maybe that's not real. We're still trying to prove the case. And then there's a, I wanna tease that apart from how we react to people who say that that's not the case, which is like, oh my God, they're demons. They're horrible. We must like stamp them out and like salt the ground that they live on so that their offspring can never live again. And those two things are like really, really different. But don't we need to stand on some set of facts or not facts, but in science, there's like closer approximations to truth. It's not a science, good scientists use a method that never says we know how everything works. They say, we have a better understanding to do than we did yesterday and here's what that is. And if that gets replaced with a better model tomorrow, we're gonna be good with that, although that may take a generation of scientists to die off who refuse to join the new model. That happens a lot. But don't we need some anchors for what we think is going on or we don't actually make any progress on the big problems? If we're gonna be talking and spending time with whether or not we need to prove that climate change is anthropogenic, which has been proven as an accepted and we can move forward for those. I mean, what we really wanna do is regenerate the soils. What we really wanna do is so many things that move in the right direction. So I wrote in the notes in my sense of why there's pushback on whether or not climate change is anthropogenic is for a very, I mean, I'll say it. I don't know how to the truth of this. This is where my blame comes in, but why bother? Because I think that the libertarian perspective is what is really pushing heavily against that claim because it means that therefore that model of my personal merit and my income, my wealth, whatever is there is on the chopping block in order to be taxed and distributed and ameliorate some of these causes. And so the same thing with the, what is it? Sorry, critical race theory. No, we can't talk about race in schools. We need to make it illegal because what you're saying is that my investments and my privilege and my meritocracy again is on the chopping block in order to be redistributed or make amends for what has happened in the past. But all of these things are, we've just got to change it at its core. And there are so many ways to invest, I think, in the solutions and make those attractive solutions. And so when we can focus towards the world that we wanna build and make those attractive to everybody and get off of the, well, the facts that we can deny the facts until kingdom come. And there are many, many more facts. There are many more facts. And as we really think, one of the things that Susan Simard had addressed in her book was the perspective of the forestry experts when she was studying forestry. And so we have such a strong sense of the internet has taken us away from having any faith in a singular narrative. And this is such a conservative opinion to me. I'm kind of surprised at what's gone on in a progressive because I always was listening to manufacturing consent and paying attention to, well, we have a dominated narrative. It's very dominated. And so we should now listen to the experts when we look at what the experts said here and look at what the experts said here and look at what the experts said here and look at when they messed up here. Look at our human limitations. How much do we insist that we know? Let's go towards what resonates right here as the best possible that we can and try to make that a very attractive pathway. And I just feel that the, I have a child who's 13 and I'm now seen as absolutely selfish, absolutely a danger to society because I don't wanna vaccinate my son. Now I can vaccinate myself because I'm just really beyond that. I'd rather not to tell you the truth. I'd rather build up the immunity because I don't have full faith to tell you the truth that we always know the best way. And I think that I would much rather build up an immunity amongst people in society and I would much rather build up a healthy healthcare system and that our singular focus on vaccines has definitely detracted from a complexity of solutions on where we could go. So whatever. But my son, I think as a 13 year old that making me a pariah to society because I don't want to vaccinate him is kind of an interesting thing. It's kind of an interesting thing. And I just invite a little bit of a heightened, a moment of heightened perspective when we're at a critical time, we're at a critical time and the reaction at a critical time and a tense time if we're feeling upset by what others are doing with their lives then we might notice that something's going on with us. And so I think that that's kind of maybe what was coming up is like I just wanted to be frank about that and throw it out to the group for whatever it's worth because I know that there's a strong sense of how is it that people are so misled and getting false information and here we are in the open global mind and I'm not sure that we all have access to all the information. So thanks. Thanks, Alson. So we're trying to get to that point. Go ahead, Pauls. Yeah, it's actually when you dive into it it's actually not complicated to understand. I mean, in my sector last year, 2020, commodity cores, 40% of their income was generated by governmental subsidies. They could absolutely not maintain their business model if it wasn't for government funding that is being routed in their direction in multiple forms and it's best expressed in the farm bill which is up for negotiation in 2022. So we are actually, I'm partnering with the Kista Crown Organization we're mobilizing a group of NGOs to understand this and to get into the topics as complicated as it is. But yeah, this is a food fight basically. There are existing power structures. When you start looking at the way money is being distributed through the government into business channels if it's astounding, not just at the federal level but also at the state level. And to change that starts with people having to become aware of it and understanding how this money flows which means you have to cut through the entire media noise. The mass media absolutely avoids those topics because their revenue model is advertising coming from the very people whose business model would be harmed by these changes that are coming through. So now it's a transformative period and if we get this wrong, I mean, right now Congress is in the process of passing a $3.5 trillion bill. And it's going to go through if there's no choice but if these investments are misallocated if they're making assumptions in how to allocate this money it could absolutely end up catastrophically wrong, right? Because, and just staying this agriculture, I mean, if they invest that money in the wrong channels, then it would deepen the problem that we have created in the natural world in the ecosystem. So it's just all you can really do at this point is to inform each other, educate each other, stay informed and seek to understand what are the core issues that drive this discussion. Thanks, Paz. One of my wishes for OGM and OGM conversations is to slow down these conversations some, which I'm certainly not good at on Thursday calls because we're busy throwing a whole bunch of different links and things and because it's a check-in format, we move from person to person, we switch contexts a lot and we sort of jump around a lot. But on the question you just raised, Alison, I'd love to just slow it down to find out specifically what are the reasons, what are the objections, what are the thoughts, how does it work? And then from my perspective, map this out in some sense so that we can say, okay, here are the five reasons or here are the 12 reasons or whatever. And then just slow down and look at one at a time and go, you know, how does this work and what's going on around it? And I think that the Navy SEALs like to say, slow as smooth, smooth as fast. And I think that kind of goes for conversation too, for meaningful conversation, is that when we can slow things down and take and respectfully sort of take our time with the issues that might work out well. So I think there's reason for us to maybe set up another caller, like certainly pop-up calls, but maybe some other rhythm to take things a little slower question at a time and say, okay, this call is only gonna be about this one question and we're gonna unpack it, we're gonna sort of go over it, we're gonna try to figure it out from different perspectives and model the different perspectives. I think that'd be really useful for us. So thank you for bringing all that into the conversation. Let's go, Pete, Mark Ingrid. Thank you, Jay. Thank you, Alison, lots of great stuff, I think. Thank you, then we need it in the conversation. I'm gonna hit return on my Madermas chat and then I'll try to copy that over to Zoom chat. So on my mind this week, I've been playing around with a clean NFT marketplace and that led me to play around with decentralization technologies. So IPFS has been interesting to play with and Matrix, which is a decentralized chat infrastructure has been interesting. Massive Wiki is going pretty well, actually. I had a great call yesterday with the FedWiki folks and there's other cool stuff going on with Massive Wiki. Development-wise, we've kind of slowed down a little bit and a few of us, Bill and especially Wendy Alford have been really digging in on how you start to Wiki. Wendy is using herself as a test subject and she drags somebody else into the fray. Smart person, lots of information all over the place. How do you actually slow down enough to start using Massive Wiki to keep track of all of that stuff? So we're learning a lot and hopefully at some point we'll feed that back into software and process and documentation and screencasts and things like that. California recall election was really scary before it happened and then it was, we spent $275 million on that afterwards. So it's been interesting watching the people kind of react to that. And especially some of the people watching the media react to it. I remember it's like, oh my gosh, there's this polarization in California. It was crazy. There's a whole bunch of people who wanted Newsom, our governor out, a whole bunch of people had done. And it's like, dude, look at the election. It was out, it was 70 plus to 30. It wasn't, California is not divided over this. And if you're reporting it as if it is, then there's kind of a problem. Which is not to say that the United States doesn't have this weird rift that's being driven by structural forces, I think. Still freaked out about how our culture is sending kids to school in the middle of a pandemic without enough protection or ways to manage that. Glad my kids are grown and on their own and making their own decisions. Allison, interestingly enough, I was heavily into alternative health before we had kids and when we had our first kid. So our first kid went to a nature path for years and didn't get any shots, none. None of the ones that people go, oh well, COVID is one thing, but then there's mumps and measles and rubel and all that kind of stuff. You take those, right? And we actually didn't. So I kind of feel for you. And then there's a short bit sweet conversation that Rob started in tools and technology about drawing and capturing ideas and linking them together. Perennial, age old discussion, what tools are you using that isn't a whiteboard because whiteboard isn't practical for everything. And you get the regular suspects and then we kind of wring our hands and like I wish it were better. So I don't know exactly what to report out of that, but it's cool to see that happening. And Rob and I had some interesting exchanges back before us. That's me, thanks. Thanks, Pete. Lots of good stuff. And of course, the why don't we draw stuff and share stuff? Better question is big for us and we care a lot about it. As well as like all these, how do we make social decisions together? Stuff are good, there's your list. Also, Pete and I added a couple of pages to the open global online website. So there's now Vincent and his Trove system are now visible on our website with a calendar, a list of members of people involved in OGM who are registered on Trove and a list of projects that are related to OGM that are listed on Trove. So I put in the Mattermost channel, a link to you can go create your own profile and we won't use this call to do it, but I think at some point we'll do a walkthrough with somebody who isn't done it yet. We'll just do a screen share and a walkthrough on a different call and just get more of us in there because we've been looking for 18 months to see ourselves like, hey, who's in this group? And this is a really lovely way to do that. So thank you Vincent for building the platform and offering it up to us for service. And we'll put the link in the chat for that invite to go build a profile on Trove. And now let's go Mark Ingrid-Michael. Hello. Yo. It is Mexican Independence Day. Hi. I was walking through the forest talking to my cousin and we were just talking about our Mexican family and basically how all this shit goes down with the Mexicans in California. And I can pass for white. I can pass for male. I can pass for old. Hey, Father Hidalgo on December 16th, basically declared independence from Spain back in the 1800s. So hey, I'll calm down a tiny bit and slow down a lot. Because in terms of blame, it's all my fault. You did the whole thing? Yep, it's all me. I was watching the OGM, build OGM call from last week and I didn't get enough sleep. I came into work and I released some code at the internet archive and I brought down part of the internet archive. So I'm not blaming Jerry or Pete for their excellent, back and forth about basically how we can frame a global memory, a global kind of thinking together that kept me up at night. I couldn't, you know, I took a shower, I drank some tea. If I had dope, I should have smoked it, but I didn't. Or as we say, marijuana, but, you know, I released some code and walked home, you know, through the forest. There's a forest in between where I live and where I work. It's called Golden Gate Park. There's some redwoods there. There's a linear micro forest along Park Presidio. That's beautiful. But basically, yes, the internet archive searching went down because of me. Because I didn't get enough sleep and I wasn't thinking. And Eric, there is a D-Web meetup that the internet archive hosts and have hosted D-Web conferences. We hope to get back to that before everybody dies from whatever we're all going to lie from. So what I mean is- The menu keeps broadening. Sorry, yes, yes. The menu keeps broadening. It's like asteroid. So what I have been thinking about is planes with writing or graphics on them, and these planes can shift, well, they have limits to where they can shift. So you can't, so if you have a plane on a, what is it? A monitor with text on it, you can't like reverse it so the text goes backwards. You can do that to an image, but you kind of, there's that cover flow idea where you kind of move pages before, but what if you could kind of move your perspective point of vanishing so that you can, yeah, it's basically, it's the start of bringing 3D into text and image, but never, yeah, just at the beginning. I mean, I'm really interested in Julian Gomez's work and I just don't have the time. I try to, I'm a better designer than a coder, but I'm not in a design role. That's kind of a tough thing because there's politics wherever you go. I mean, the internet archive is an enlightened, wonderful kind of a bringer of as much knowledge as we can, storing it forever for free on the internet, backing up the internet, putting books out there. And I wrote that, my role there is kind of like a bit slave. We're better, I guess, a bit wage slave and making transformative change, even in a transformative organization, damn, that's hard. And I love Kevin Kelly's notion and what Pete was mentioning, that to basically create these abilities to work together, it takes human time, it takes biological time, not internet time, not, you know, enlightened little tech shit time, if you'll excuse my French, but, you know, there's people who are just like, we gotta rush, we gotta do all this stuff, you know, we gotta earn all our money while we're in our 20s. And I don't know, it's kind of slow practice, to practice slowness is infuriating at times. As I'm sure you're now infuriated at me for bringing up Bob and Ray, and the slow talkers of America. And I was hoping to hear from Mark, Tebow, I don't know if he passed or- I did. Oh, okay, so that's it. Basically, you know, I reached 15 million connections in between the two and a half million unique strings of text in my external mind, the MX project that I work on and have been attempting to get out since 1984, patiently. And, you know, slowness furthers apparently, at least in some of the eaching hexagrams, but other hexagrams might, you know, say blame Mark for not having a global intelligence network of ideas sharing. It is my fault and I'll pass it to whoever's next. Oh, and I am taking live notes within the MX system and I'm posting them to the Mattermost. I try to do that every half an hour, but yeah, stuff. Anyway, love to hear from Mark in the future and we'll try to get together. And Julian, I just owe you the effort to try and connect with you and I'm sorry, it's my fault. Mr. Caronza, thank you so much for singing and dancing for us. That is like much appreciated. In sympathy with slowness, I've put the Bureau of Mammal Affairs, sorry, the Department of Mammal Vehicles behind me, which is in the movie Zootopia where the sloths are at the desk, which is like one of the world's best scenes in animation when Judy Hopp, what's her name? Judy Hopps, what's her last, I've forgotten, but the protagonist of Zootopia is a little bunny who's really fast. He's trying to get some data really fast and the sloths are not quick. Anyway, I can put a link to that in the chat. Let's go, we're close to the end of our 90 minutes, but we have Ingrid, Michael, Vincent, Julian, and then we're wrapped. So Ingrid, please. Hey guys, so the last month I did a bit of the Camino. I did 277 kilometers, which is not the whole thing, but hey, it was really amazing. You mean you were on the Camino? Yeah, yeah, I walked the Camino. Yeah, in a... El Camino de Al? El otro, ah. Santiago, my friend, my amigo. But just a quick thing about it is I was a complete skeptic. I just thought, why not? I've heard about it all my life. I'll just go check it out, but it is truly magical and it is weirdly powerful and I can't explain, no one can explain it unless you've been on it, but I would just say to anyone if you're called to do it and I'm not a religious person at all, that you should go and experience it. I would highly recommend it. The other crazy thing that happened to me after that and why I cut it short actually, is because I was invited to go to a conference with people who are doing village building all over the world. So it was a lot of, I didn't know what I was in for, let's put it that way, it was in Portugal and someone that I've been talking to through someone that I met in this group in a very roundabout way invited me and said, come on down, really like your idea. You can meet a lot of interesting people here and boy did I. I can just tell you there was every kind of person there and but for some reason, and this must be some universal life lesson for me. I ended up meeting a lot of people who are, let's say they made a lot of money in crypto, they want to go live back on the land and in nature but they're also, and this speaks a little bit to what you're saying Allison, they are really do not believe that vaccination is necessary, they believe in a lot of conspiracy theories. These were sort of people I thought were my peers. I even heard QAnon theories. I have to say my head was blown. I did not know that people sort of that were really well educated that came from very privileged backgrounds that had traveled around the world had these ideas and are in quite powerful spheres. Let's put it that way. So I just have to share that I've, that was honestly kind of a scary moment for me. And I thought, have I missed an entire, because I live in my little bubble in Amsterdam in Europe. I'm not living in America. I had never met a QAnon. I didn't really even know. I tried not to know about it. So I don't know what all of you think about this and it probably doesn't even matter, but I think there is a lot more going on out there than we maybe in our bubbles know about. And yeah, I don't know what to think about it. I, yeah, I'm just sharing that. So yeah, so the other thing is it kind of made me think, well, look, I've got this project. I do, I want, I want to start, you know, it's not a village, but I want to start a program that integrates a lot of things that sort of these kinds of people would be involved in, but I cannot partner with people who believe in these gigantic conspiracy theories. I'm just going to be honest here. I'm very science and fact based. You know, it felt like very much hitting the we work world of that guy who started we work and made so much money and never was prosecuted. And now it's, you know, like multimulti-millionaire and yet sort of had this whole pyramid scheme. So, and I don't know what you guys think about that either, but yeah, anyway, so I'm a little bit disillusioned at this point, I'm going to try and keep the faith that there are, you know, other types of VCs out there. And I'm sure there are. But anyway, so that was my crazy month. And that's where I am right now, trying to figure out sort of what my next steps are and where to go from here. Ingrid, I do believe you've given Mark a run for the money on the check-in of the day award. Yeah, like had you added like a musical number, you would have totally been over the top and blown him out of the waters, but thank you for that. That's, it's really interesting. And I think you're just, you're describing the waters we're all swimming in, in some sense. And I don't know that we understand what to do and how to behave. And I think that's like really great territory for us to turn over, to do stuff in. So thank you for that. We had a few people in the queue, Michael, Vincent, Julian. I'll refrain from grabbing an instrument and rising to the challenge. So this will not be the check-in of the day. I was, you know, one thing I wanted to share that was similar to a share I gave after attending the Mozilla Festival that relates to diversity and sort of outward radiation of the OGM group. I apologize in advance, I mean, I apologize in the past tense actually for not alerting people to it, but I had on my calendar yesterday and stumbled into without much expectation the Responsible Tech Summit. I don't know if anybody else here was part of that. It was co-presented by All Tech is Human and The Bridge. And it was a really impressive gathering of people, you know, talking about ethics and tech and, you know, from a number of different perspectives. And while I was just checking, there's the link to the event. And they usually put things in, actually, I think that's the link to their live stream series where the current, the current event is not yet up, but will be soon. It's long, has a bunch of different panels, but it's very cool. And it did strike me that there were a lot of groups there that were mentioned, that were aligned, that have me feeling like, you know, we need, we're great people, we don't have a patent on the stuff that we're going after and participating in those other groups and possibly sponsoring panels or presentations that bring other people in with respect, not saying, hey, come participate in our group where you're gonna feel marginal and see a bunch of people who aren't diverse, you know, talking in a very familiar way with each other, but rather, hey, you know, you've got something to say, we'd like to put you on the podium, invite other people, have other people come in. Jerry, this may relate to your, you know, show notion, but I think a sort of stocking horse for that might be to do some Zoom events or air meet events or something where we can bring people in. And I think if you guys check out that event, you'll see a lot of candidates for people that we could listen to rather than help, which, you know, I think there's a term that comes up, you know, like, what can we do to help others? Well, I mean, maybe we can just listen. Thanks, that's my share. Thanks, Michael. Listening was actually super helpful and it's probably our first step in all cases, in most cases anyway. There's not enough listening going on. Thank you. We had Vincent, Julian, Doug. Jerry, why is the DMV in the background over here? It's the Department of Mammal Vehicles and we were talking earlier about slowing conversations down. So Pete posted the scene in the chat from Zootopia where Judy Hopp runs up, meeting a plate run from the DMV clerks who are sloths. So it's, you know, we're a peak obscure, we like strange references, that's how we roll. Okay, I was, that makes more sense. The actual DMV is like the worst place on earth. So I was, actually, my last visits to DMVs were actually really satisfying. It took no time to get to the counter and I was boom, boom out of there, but that's just me. And Eric has gone with a full bore Apple II background. It's awesome, like every low pixel art, sorry, Vincent, to interrupt you, but keep going. No problem. So my check-in had a really interesting debate last night with two friends, one of which is a hardcore like Trump supporter and then I just, I'm realizing, like, and this is kind of touching on some of the previous check-ins about the vaccine, is I could go up to someone who's like fervently against the vaccine and have a two hour debate telling them all the reasons why they're wrong or why there's flaws in their thinking and why there's some misinformation or logical fallacy and be arguing from the side of like why we should get vaccines or why an individual should in some certain context, right? Cause it's different for age groups or for situations. And then I can also turn to somebody who's like super for the vaccine in every single context and then have a similar two hour debate, debunking misinformation and also being, and so like it's like weird that like I can kind of in different situations, basically have a really heated two hour discussion with people on both sides and it makes it even harder for me to have a actual opinion on what to do because it feels like there's just so much to be able to weave through to find that middle ground. I feel like on top of it all is like the dynamic nature, like the virus is mutating as our conversations are mutating about it. I'll stop there cause I know there's only a few minutes left. My last other piece is I'm going to be away for the next kind of few weeks. So I might not be as present next week. I'm going to be in Prague at a design sprint working on a currency system for eco villages to help communities be able to share resources and with each other. So it's kind of instead of like a person to person, it's more of like a community to community currency system. And so I'm going to be working on that for a week and then I have like three weddings the following three weekends. So one of them is in Prague and so I'm going to be like pretty crazy but I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun to be social again and it's also going to be quite scary. But yeah, that's my check-in. That sounds awesome Vincent. Can we follow your trail on Insta or Twitter or are you going to like put your moves on the socials so we can vicariously enjoy your travels? You know, I don't do much of that anymore but I will post my Instagram link if anyone's interested. Yeah, thank you. It'd be fun because you're going to be doing fun stuff. Let's go, Julie and Doug. I actually don't have much of a check-in because this week has been one of those mostly Zoom meetings. And in fact, my attendance here this morning has been fractured because the kitten's been particularly rambunctious this morning. But next week I will have some more. Are you wearing like heavy trousers so that like little claws don't get all the way through and tear your calves open or? Yes, I call them my climbing pants not because I go climbing but because my kitten climbs me. Nothing like young pets with sharp teeth and sharp claws. He's so cute though. Yeah. Doug, we made it through everybody and the floor is yours. Yeah, a few seconds to be slow. You can take your time. We will go over as long as we need to. At this point, we're good. Well, watch out. On slowness, I've been reading a good book called Slow Writing by a woman named DeSalvo. And it's much, much better than you would think from the title. It's very encouraging to slow down thinking not in a Daniel Kahneman way but in a much more humane way. The writing is good. The examples are good. It's fun to read. And it's affected by writing. So that's been good. On two other things on check-in. I found myself this week reading Arnold Toindy whom I haven't heard a reference to for a long time. And his analysis of the collapse of societies, of civilizations just feels to me like it's right on for what we need to know now. And the writing is crystal clear. It's extremely helpful. Last point, I was late today because I was in a meeting with a group of people from Africa and Los Angeles who are connecting communities together in eco-villages. And boy, was it stimulating to be with people who think differently than the way I do. It was just really a complete delight. Anyway, that's it. Any highlights of the other thinkers or other ideas that stood out for you? Well, people with a depth of experience and interest that was just beyond what I expected. There were a few ex ambassadors from African countries. There were people from villages and people from Los Angeles. And they're all working together, mostly from the Afro-American community. But it was just a delight to be with them. Sounds awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with us. Eric, I'm not sure we have time for a screen share alas, but I'd love to see some of that. And you shared, Pete, I think, found one of your YouTube videos and added that to the chat. And maybe we can drop that into one of our next check-ins or something like that. But thanks for joining us here. Sure, thank you. Awesome. Everybody, thank you. Much to think about, much to do. Really appreciate your presence very, very much. See you on the intertubes and in the DMV. Thanks, Jerry. Bye, y'all. Bye. Bye, everybody. Bye, Mark. Bye, Vincent.