 It's actually a pretty short throw to the back. Good evening. Yeah, I figure you're on. Good evening. Hello. Thank you all for being here. Welcome to Seattle Rep. My name's Brayden Abraham. I'm the acting artistic director here. And I'm Jeffrey Herman. I'm the new managing director. And we are the new leadership team here at Seattle Repertory Theater. I want to welcome you and thank you all for being here tonight for our forum, which we've entitled Artistic Freedom and Artistic Responsibility. We want to start by thanking our partners for coming out this event. And she's done a remarkable job. This event would also not have been possible without the additional support from our friends at For Culture and the Seattle Office for Civil Rights, who are all represented here tonight. Finally, we want to thank the staff of Seattle Rep, especially our communications staff led by Karen Chilcote and Sarah Meals, and our technical team there in the back led by Elby Morse and Colin Warner. Thank you guys. They've all been working very hard over these last three weeks to put this together. So thank you very much. We want to say a big Seattle hello to everybody who's watching us over the internet tonight. That is right. We are being live streamed across the country on the theater site HowlRound. And this event is also being taped for the Seattle channel. So just a heads up that by being here tonight, you're giving us permission to broadcast your likeness over the internet and eventually by the Seattle channel. I also want to let you know that you can be participating in the conversation on Twitter. We have a hashtag, which is Seattle Afar. That's Seattle A-F-A-R for artistic freedom, artistic responsibility. We have an open network available tonight here in the theater. So if you go on your phones, look for SRT Guest and SRT Guest 1. And there is no password. We'd love to have you tweeting and participating in all of those ways. So Kathy's going to provide an overview of how we're going to be proceeding tonight. But we thought we'd take a moment to review why we're here before we get started. As many of you know, the Seattle, Gilbert, and Sullivan Society has been in residence in our building performing on this stage, the Bagley Wright, for four weeks each summer. This is a community-based performing arts company that's been serving Seattle for the past 60 years. And their production this summer was of the Gilbert and Sullivan Opera, The Mikado, which first performed, premiered in 1885. It was the sixth time that Gilbert and Sullivan Society has produced this piece in Seattle. But this year, on the heels of a blistering op ed in the Seattle Times by Sharon Payne Chan, in which she referred to the show as Yellow Face, there were protesters lined up outside the building during performances and national coverage of the story on CNN, NPR, MSNBC, and all over the internet. Though it wasn't a Seattle rep production, because it was performed in our space, we were drawn into the debate over this show. And we felt rather than distancing ourselves from it, the controversy opened up a valuable opportunity that we should seize to bring our community together for a constructive dialogue. These issues of art, race, and cultural representation are messy and confusing. And the rules about who can dress up as whom and who can tell whose story and in what context are an ever-shifting minefield. We certainly don't have any illusion that we're going to solve the problem of race in America over the next two hours. But perhaps we can achieve a better understanding of this ongoing tension between artistic freedom and artistic responsibility. And maybe each of us can take away some strategies and ideas for how to approach this dialectic in the future. If we can accomplish that task, if we can come up with some strategies and some ideas about how to move forward in the next two hours, then I think we'll all come away feeling like we've accomplished something tonight. And with that, I want to turn it over to Kathy Shea, who is the Cultural Partnerships and Grants Manager for the Seattle Office of Arts and Culture. She is also a theater artist in her own right and the co-executive producer of CIS Productions. Thank you, Brayden. I want to also do just some really, really quick thanks to begin with thank you so much, Brayden, and Jeff, for co-hosting this event tonight. In particular, their staff really bent over backwards just doing everything to make this possible. We also want to thank our partners from For Culture and the Seattle Office for Civil Rights for their additional support, in particular Diana Falchuk with the Seattle Office for Civil Rights and Patty Lally, their new executive director there, and also to Christina DePaulo from For Culture and Jim Kelly for their support and everything that they did. But the staff at the Seattle Office for Arts and Culture immeasurable thanks for jumping in and volunteering and really helping out in every single possible way imaginable, in particular, Glenda Childers, for going above and beyond. And to our director, Randy Engstrom, who when I came to him saying, I think this is an opportunity for us to take a scary leadership role in the city, he said, what do you need to make it happen? And this afternoon when I went to him at 4.30, he said that I don't think we, we forgot to think about food for the volunteers who are coming straight from work and working through the night. He went out and got food. So thanks to all of them and to all of the people who are going to be responding tonight out in the house and up here on stage for volunteering your time. And most especially to all of you for making the time to show how important these issues are to each and every one of you. That says a lot about Seattle. Thank you so much for being here tonight. Okay, so the format. Ever since we started doing this, the first question people ask is what is the format? Who's the moderator and who are the panelists? And to be honest, because this conversation is really about race and the arts, I didn't think we could do it in a traditional hierarchical Western format of that. So we brainstormed a lot of Raina and Jeffrey and all of our staffs did a lot of thought questioning and I really thought about it and decided we're gonna be a little bit more tribal, which means that instead of having a traditional talking stick, we will have these modern microphones, which will form as our talking stick that we'll be passing around. It is a curated forum, so what does that mean? What that means is, since we first conceived of it, I think we first had the meeting about just over three weeks ago to talk about the idea of doing this, we decided that we really wanted this to be bigger and broader than some specific incident that happened. And it's really an opportunity for us to talk about some of these issues about race and representation, inclusion and exclusion in regards to the artistic community, but really about Seattle and things that we've been seeing all around the country as a whole. So one of the things that we talked about was we really want to hear from the community what these things had brought up for all of you. Over the last few weeks, people, all of you and many others have been sending in comments and questions and going through all of them, we pulled what seemed to be the most representative questions that were prevalent. So what you're gonna hear tonight is just a small fraction of all the comments and questions we got in, but a lot of them do represent the different variations of the similar questions that were asked. So know that this is representative of what you wanted to talk about tonight. And the way that it will work is that we have some people up on stage because we wanted to try to find the best responses to the questions that were asked. We also have different people in the house that we contacted based on what they submitted and asked them if they'd be willing to ask the question themselves. And to be honest, some people felt comfortable with that and so we will be running to them with a microphone and they will ask their question or provide their comment. Other people did not feel comfortable with that because they really wanted to, overall, a lot of people said they wanted to be here to listen. And so we respected that. So some of us up here will ask the question in their stead. And you also have comment cards that you were given. If you have anything that else that comes up tonight, questions or comments, feel free to write them down on the cards. We do have runners who are keeping an eye out. So if you have questions that come up, what you can do is feel free to raise your hand and wave your card. Just know that rather than us calling on you, what will happen is you can pass your card down to the aisles. The runners will periodically come and try to collect them. We have two people who are sorting all the comment cards and question cards. If you feel comfortable having your name attached to your comment or question, please feel free to write that in. If you don't, you can leave it anonymous, that's totally fine. And we also have tweeters, a team of tweeters who will also be tweeting out some of those questions and comments possibly. And we will be collecting all of them to kind of go through them afterwards as well. We might not have time to get to all those additional ones, but at certain points, and especially at the end, if we have time, we might be able to get to some of the highlighted ones and the sorters are keeping track of that. So we appreciate any other additional feedback that we get throughout the evening. Finally, we want to get to know a little bit more about who's in the room tonight. So we also have these demographic surveys, our little ones, individual, completely anonymous, and we really want everyone to take the time to fill it out and you can also hand those over to the runners or leave them at the table before you leave tonight. And the reason why it's so important for us to know who's in the room is these public forums. It helps us know who is interested and cares about these conversations and who we're missing at the table. If we really want to be an inclusive city, we need to know how we can better serve everyone who should be here and these questionnaires really help us do that. Again, there's no attribution to them, so we do encourage you to be counted. It does make a difference. So in an effort to get to know a lot of you a little bit better, just to find out why people are here tonight, actually, sorry, let me backtrack. I wanna just make sure we go over just a few ground rules for everyone just so that you have them. And the first ground rule is we're gonna, basically our goal tonight is to listen for understanding versus listening to just prepare a response. The other ground rule is we're gonna treat each person's perspective as the truth for him or her. There's gonna be a diverse range of perspectives shared tonight and each person has the freedom to have their say and if the conversation goes as we hope it will, at some point, everyone in this room is gonna feel a little bit or a lot uncomfortable at something that someone says. So just know that but that everyone is speaking what is truth for him or her. Third ground rule, be willing to accept that although you may mean well, your actions or your words may come across as hurtful to others. And so again, if you go back to the first one about listening to understand, take the time to listen before responding. We want to hear from as many people as possible so please be brief and make your point as quickly as possible for all the respondents and panelists alike. Give each other the benefit of the doubt. We're all here because we care. And the fact that everyone took the time to be here today, this is how we're all gonna work together. No one has the right answer. There is no right answer to any of this stuff. We're all figuring it out as we move forward together. There are a few people who are gonna be playing a little bit more of a co-shared host role with us. And I just want them to introduce themselves and then there will be other respondents which we will be introducing as we call on them throughout the evening. So, do you wanna start? Sure, am I on? Can you hear me? Great, my name is Valerie Curtis Newton and I am the Head of Performance at the University of Washington. I'm also the Artistic Director of the Hansberry Project and I'm a freelance director. Hi, my name's Annie LaRoe. I'm currently a freelance director and actor. Prior to that, I served at Bucket Repertory Theater as their Director of Outreach and Touring and briefly just served as the Interim Artistic Director at Arts West during their transition. Hi, my name is Agastya Kohli and I lead the drama wing of Pratudhwani, which is a South Asian performing arts organization in the Seattle area. Great, thank you. And now, oh, a voucher doing. Oh no, voucher, sorry. You know what, we're gonna introduce you as we go along. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. That's a lot of room. We want to leave some things up for surprise. So, to get to know all of you a little bit better, if you don't mind, just so we can find out a little bit more about why all of you are here tonight, raise your hand, or let's share this. Okay, oh, this is me. Raise your hand if you're an artist. If you're an artist. Yay. Oh, there we go. Okay, raise your hand if you're an administrator or on the staff of an arts or cultural organization. And it's okay if you raise your hand more than once. All right, administrators in the house. Raise your hand if you are not an artist or an arts administrator, but represent the general community. Yay, thank you. Raise your hand if you are here because you believe that artistic freedom should be protected at all costs and are against censorship of all kinds. Oh, Annie, sorry, I'm gonna ask you to. Raise your hand if you believe that due to the power art has in shaping people's perceptions, art makers have responsibilities when it comes to how they present their art. Raise your hand if you value artistic freedom, but also feel that with freedom comes responsibility. Okay, raise your hand if you are here tonight because you honestly don't know what to think about artistic freedom or artistic responsibility. Okay. Raise your hand if you're here because you want to listen and become more aware of the many different perspectives in the room. Great. Okay, so let's start with what is the balance between artistic freedom and artistic responsibility? I've been asked this question a lot in the last bit. For me, artistic freedom is paramount because it's the thing that protects the voice of the minority, that without the freedom to speak your truth, the voices that are most frequently silenced are those that are in the minority. And so I don't think of those two things as an dichotomous relationship. I think that they're connected, that I can use my artistic freedom to express responsibly my relationship to my community and the world around me. Now we have a comment from the house, John Peoples. John. Hear me now? Great, thank you. Well I think that when it comes to artistic freedom and responsibility, our responsibility as Americans is to just relax and enjoy the show and promote the freedom of others to do the same, whatever our preferred entertainment fair to each his own. Read the reviews and each person has the power to decide whether or not to attend. This individual power of choice trumps any societal power to spoil the show with chain-based censorship. Great. Byron Allyoung, he was coming from Portland, so I'm not sure if he actually made it. Oh, great. He's a local composer who is heard nationally and internationally as well. Thanks so much, Kathy. This is a great forum. Thank you everyone for being here. So responsibility and freedom. You know, I'm the son of immigrants in America, so freedom is paramount for my family. But that said, I think the responsibility of growing up within a Chinese-American household and the network that was created in knowing how our actions actually affect larger, the larger networks around us was significant. And so in my work, both my independence as well as the responsibility I have for audiences and an aesthetic practice are paramount. Michael Allen, an artist and people-centered designer. As an artist, I believe in artistic freedom, but I also believe in empathy, especially for people who have been historically wronged. I think we shouldn't be afraid to present historic work even in its original form, but we can't pretend that it's 1830. And we have to acknowledge that we're living in the modern world. And so it has to be presented in context. And so we can ask what was the world then and what world do we live in now? Thank you. Augustia. Well, in my view, artistic responsibility comes first. And as a producer, I have to make sure that my production is going to first and foremost serve the intent of the playwright, speaking of theater specifically. Not to say that there is no freedom. The freedom comes after that as long as it adds to the production and to the message of the playwright without taking anything away. What was interesting in preparing for tonight, someone actually wrote in and asked specifically, can we make sure that we really cover the importance of artistic freedom? And I want to make sure that was represented, so I actually went online and Googled it. And what I found was actually the United Nations in 2013 actually surveyed all the countries that make up the UN. And the Human Rights Council of the UN actually issued a detailed report in March of 2013 that talks about the right to freedom of artistic expression and creativity. And out of all this country survey, what they felt was paramount is that the world over, they felt that the right to freedom of opinion and expression in the arts is absolutely vital and should be protected at all costs. But they also realized that it's necessary to possibly define certain artistic limitations to those freedoms and what those are, they said actually specifically was any artistic expression that might call for discrimination, hatred, and violence against specific groups or persons and to protect children. So it's interesting, they also had a lot of other things that they talked about including the importance of arts education as the best way to deal with censorship. And so if you want that whole online report on the other cards that you're handed out, there's actually a link to a page of resources and other upcoming events related to this. And you can find the full report there, but it's really fascinating reading. Lelani Baranobis, who is a local actor also wanted to talk a little bit about censorship. Thank you for holding this, much appreciated. I think there is a balance with censorship and you have to really understand it when a group of people are coming to a company and saying that what you're portraying on the stage are racial stereotypes or caricatures is not calling for a censorship of the show. We're asking for maybe an artistic difference of producing that show. On the other hand of that, we also as a group have to look at ourselves regarding censorship towards a show in the future just because a show has a certain name and it might be coming out in another year and it's been posted to be careful about wanting to ban that show before you even know what the production is about. So there is a responsibility I think there. Thank you. Annie, could you talk a little bit about some of your previous work with Bookit and around artistic freedom and censorship? Kathy asked me when she asked me to be part of this to talk about several things, but one of the ones was about Bookit's Bookit Repertories Danger Books Program which is sort of the centerpiece of their education arts program of which I ran for a while and it's now being run by Gail Horson has been a part of Bookit from its inception. And the program is an educational program that takes chapters out of banned and censored books and we produce staged readings of those books with professional actors and we take them to middle schools and high schools. And schools are given a choice of seven different selections anywhere from something that isn't very intense to things that are very intense involving violence and race and homosexuality and drugs, things that schools sometimes ban in their libraries. The actors perform those three pieces for the students and then they lead a discussion around the First Amendment and what it means to ban and censor. And I think what's so brilliant about the program and what Bookit does with this program is that it gets students talking about censorship in a very intense way that is not black and white, that they really try to represent the fact that this might be okay for you to read this book about drugs and sex, but would you read it to your younger brother? And really bringing up that conversation within the students that controversy of how and what do I censor and why? Where are my personal boundaries? What do I feel should be censored or not censored? Is it right for someone to censor for me? And is it then okay for me to censor for someone else? It brings up that conversation, which I think is really important in our young people as we move forward into the world and as they move forward into being theater goers and theater performers and involved in the arts in general to continue to understand that that is a gray area, that it is not black and white, that it is difficult, that it deserves attention and it deserves their focus and concern as they move forward into the future. So a number of people sent in various forms of the question should historic works created during times of different sensibilities be altered or shelved if in today's culture they are found offensive? So we wanna do another quick poll here. So raise your hand if you feel like they should be shelved. So, the question is should historic works created during different times of different sensibilities be altered or shelved if in today's culture they are found offensive? So raise your hands if you feel like feel like they should be shelved. Meaning never done again. Okay. How many feel that the artistic work should be altered? All right. And how many of you feel that the work can be done as originally created, provided that the proper context is provided for the work? Okay. All right. So we have a, we have a respondent, Kristen Liang, who's a student in the MFA Arts Leadership Program at Seattle University. Kristen, are you here? There we go, right over there. Thanks. So I'd like to hear from you about how should arts and cultural organizations approach works that may be controversial while remaining respectful of the culture that they might be representing in those works. So we want to hear from Guy Chan. Guy. I'm so sorry. Guy Chan, a former board member of a Northwest Asian American Theater who has a suggestion. Guy. Thank you. Hi everybody. I do have a suggestion and I think it would be helpful to, not just theater groups, but any type of performance group, to have a notebook, a notebook, or a list of contacts of people in the community. Not just ethnic, but I mean just, you know, for groups who are maybe culturally different. If you're going to perform something that's culturally different from what you're used to, it'd be nice to have people you can contact. Does that make sense? Okay. Thank you. Great. Valerie? An interesting question. I think it's important to figure out what role in your project there is for cultural authenticators. It's sort of how this list would get used, right? Like there would be some people at the beginning that you would take the piece to and say I'm really interested in this part of this piece. What do you think about it? How does it land with you? What are the pitfalls? Where does it upset you? Where do you buy in? So I think that those people are important early. I think that creating an environment where people from the culture represented feel comfortable and a sense of integrity in being able to be ambassadors for the work. If you look up and you ask some folks if they will, you know, talk about the work in the community and they don't want to, that tells you something about the work. And then the last thing is that I do think that there need to be allies, that there are people in rooms where some of us are not allowed who will actually stand up and say, you know what, I'm just wondering what role a cultural authenticator played in this production. Too often the rooms that don't include a diverse point of view don't actually ever ask the question about whether what they're doing has been authenticated by members of the community. And then I would say that the following up on all of that is having an open feedback response process so that the folks who come to see your work can tell you what they thought. And sometimes that communication can be very loving. And oh, I thought you did good. And sometimes it's quite frankly going to be what the hell and what the hell response is okay. That's in fact a part of our process as artists. We prick nerves, we provoke, we unsettle. It is why we exist because out of that turmoil, stress, self-assessment, reassessment comes change and change towards a step better, change towards more understanding. And then the last thing I would just say is to let all of those relationships figure out how you can make them long term. You know, there's nothing worse, and I can say this from experience, than being jobbed in to be the person of color. I'd much rather have a partner in the work and be able to invest in a long term relationship with someone where we can build understanding about each other and share strategies for enriching the work. That's great. We had a comment from Allison Derrazi, who's the director of Washington Lawyers for the Arts. Allison, are you here right over here? Thank you. My comment goes just a little bit of preface is that a lot of times people contact my organization when they have a legal issue that isn't related to the production of their work, but about their experience as an artist in a community or in a theater, in some sort of a production. So as employees or contractors, these are issues that are important to the clients that we represent or that come to us, so maybe we can't help them. And it requires not just their engagement as members of our community, but of course, members of our larger community, be they artists or audience members. And my point being that I would strongly advocate for a truly deep level of racial and gender equity training at all levels of arts organizations from staff, board members, leadership. That's great. That's great. And we wanted to throw it to Kim camera of Native cultures who has some I'm sorry. Just building on that really quickly. It also helps to have diversity on your staff and your board already can then have internal expertise for your organization. Great. So Kim, are you here? Kim is with right there. Kim is with Native cultures and has some best some some tips for us. I would also like to add that I am the chair of the Welcome to Our Native Land Committee doing powwows in non Native contexts. That's a really key element of what our group is doing right now. So thank you. Become present within a cultural community to learn protocols, practices and develop relationships. Respectfully develop relationships with key community arts in quotes, and cultural practice leaders. They open doors. Not everyone defines arts as art. Learn, learn, learn respectfully from elders and those artists and or performers in quotes again, known within a community. Key is developing relationships. Find out key community leaders. Network by asking open ended questions that focus upon who you are in your communications within a cultural community. And walk from the heart, not the mind. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, several people wrote in and they asked, you know, the general comments are great. But what really helps them to really understand it tangibly is to get a very specific example of what we mean by some of what you just heard. So I'm going to share an example of how to respectfully look at kind of if you're doing a piece that might potentially be controversial, some best tip strategies for how to approach it long before the doors have even opened on opening night. So I represent CIS productions. That's my life job is in the arts. And it's a company run by Asian American women to do works for the general public. And one of the productions we decided to do, we knew from the very time we thought about doing the script that it might potentially be controversial, not necessarily because of its content specifically, but because of its title. It was basically a play by Lauren Yee, which was about a Chinese American family that is so assimilated into American culture that they're basically whiter than white in how they act. And so when they encounter an Asian immigrant from China, they actually commit every single worst faux pas that you can think about that someone who does not understand someone else's culture might encounter them. But on the surface, they all look like they are the same. And the title of the play, and I apologize for people right now who are going to maybe be offended by it, is called Qingchong Chinaman. And for a lot of Chinese Americans, it's a very hurtful name because oftentimes it was the first thing that we experienced in the playground when we were little of other kids calling us using that in a very sing-songy voice and really awful, degrading treatment. And historically in America, it's related to a lot of horrific incidences, including right here in Seattle, where people try to take Chinese people and literally burn down their homes and kick them out of the city. And so because of that, we knew that that title alone was going to engender a lot of protests. So what did we do to try to mitigate that? Well, we actually literally started thinking about this a year before the production even opened. Some of the things before we even decided to finally do the play, we actually talked with the playwright herself to talk about her reasons for using that title and to get some understanding that way. But again, we are artists and we believe that there should be artistic freedom. We didn't want her to change her title. But we want to get an understanding of why she chose to name it that way. And then we really talked about why we want to do the show. The main thing about the show is that it really helps to teach and share with people and create greater awareness about some of why these things are so hurtful to communities and to actually create greater awareness for that for the general population. So we felt it was really important thematically to do the show, despite the controversial title. So what we did was we actually were very, and Val talks about this a lot, be very clear on the why you're doing it. And so we actually created an artistic statement specifically for the show about the reasons why. And then we included messaging around that statement that talked about how we knew that that title alone might bring a lot of pain for a lot of people in the community. But why we felt it was important to do despite that, because we wanted to get at the root of that pain about a lot of the inequalities that have happened in our country's history and still happen today. So we share that messaging with everybody in all of our processes from hiring the director to the designers to the casting process. We were very clear with everybody before we hired them why we were doing the show to make sure that everyone was on the same page with us. And then our staff and cast were all Asian Americans. And we felt that that was really important because we need to embody what the piece is really about and make sure it was authentic. Our director was Chinese American or design team in front of house staff were multiracial. And the and it was all a way to really be reflective of the material being presented. We also had in depth discussions with everyone well in advance to create a strategic plan for how we would actually make sure that every step of the way would be very respectful for everyone who might comment on the title, be offended by the title, protest the title, or maybe not even get why the title was an issue. We also made sure that all of our marketing materials from website to postcards to wording and the image that went with it really helped to really portray what we were trying to get out. So the postcard was of a very all American family. In fact, it was kind of taking off of the Saturday evening post covers so that it kind of really contrasted sharply with the title so that hopefully just in the imaging people could understand where our intent really was. And then we scheduled post play discussions for every single performance. And we wanted to give opportunity for the community to talk about it. And we prepared all of our actors, our front of house staff, box office people, everybody to make sure they understand what some of the issues might be so that everyone was prepared to have that conversation with anyone who might be hurt coming to see the show or even passing by the theater and just seeing the poster not knowing what it was about. We also had a trained facilitator who not only had an artistic background but also had a strong understanding of racial analysis and public facilitation to make sure that every single conversation was really well moderated for the purpose of understanding and awareness. And in fact, we did receive quite a number of letters, phone calls, emails, and people who said that they were going to protest the show, they were going to boycott it, they weren't going to come. They couldn't understand, I mean, heartfelt letters of why they couldn't understand why we'd be doing a show, us especially. And they'd seen all of our work. And so knew where we were coming from of why we would do this show. But because of our preparation, we were able to respond to each one of those communications with personal letters to respond to everything that they said to really make them understand what our intent was. And we offered comp tickets to every one of them to give them a chance to see the show and make the decision for themselves. Some people took us up on that, other people did not. And that was their choice. And a lot of them actually, in fact, actually every one of the people who wrote in and we responded to every one, actually wrote us back and thanked us so much for taking the time and care to respond to them personally. And they felt that they were heard, even though some of them still chose not to see the show despite that. And we also made sure that our box office staff and front of house staff were prepared if anyone decided to walk out of the show for any reason or ask for their money back, we were prepared to honor them, no questions asked. And we also want, I want to let you know that the show ended up being sold out for every single performance except for the preview. It was one of our most highly attended shows ever. We had 60% Asian American population coming to see the show, 25% European American people and 15% multiracial, including Latinos, Native Americans and African Americans coming to see the show. And it was really one of the most successful productions we had to date. And we were scared that it wouldn't be, but because of all that preparation, I think that's what really helped. And because of the post play discussions that actually fed people wanting to go out and share the show with other people and tell them you have to see the show and definitely stay for the post play discussions. And we had 90% of our audiences actually stayed for the post play discussions because of that. Yeah. So so related to all of this, Roger, Roger had two questions. Here we go. Yeah. So finally, Roger Tang is the editor of the Asian American Theatre Review and online national website, I guess international because now it's internet. International, yeah. We do cover Asian Canadian work. So I actually have two questions. Heaven forbid, if people do put protest your production, what are the five best practices, how to handle it? And probably, and also, possibly more important, what are the five things not to do? Great. So let's start with, I got you. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right down here. So I'd say do not disrespect the protest or worse dismiss it. There you go. So I want to also get John's thoughts on this. So this is John Fyodorov. All right, good. Associate Professor of Art at Fairhaven College of Interdisciplinary Studies at Western Washington University. Thanks, Jeff. I'd like to also add that I'm a member of the Dineau or Navajo Nation, also an artist and musician here in Seattle. And I've been told by some that my work can be provocative, though I still don't see it. So, so I've had, you know, in the past, much, much earlier in my career than now, but in the past, some comments about my work being people, some people being offended, mostly non-native, well, by completely non-native people. And so the my five responses are not are certainly not the only possible responses. But this is how I usually respond or want to respond, at least. The first is that I don't want to act like I already know what the person is talking about. Like I have more to say on the subject than they do. I certainly don't want to ignore them. Number two, I don't want to get defensive, self-righteous. And I would that's one thing that I noticed quite a bit, especially amongst progressives, you know who you are. Number three, stand by my right to freedom of speech no matter what. Number, not to do that. Number four, not to congratulate myself on how provocative I am. And number five, not to discount the protest as overreaction, as tyranny, or as ignorance. So I'd love to hear from Beverly next. So Beverly Natives is an interdisciplinary arts professor at UW Tacoma and founder of Arts for Change, workshops for socially engaged arts in Seattle. Thank you, Jeff. It's it's amusing to me because I'm following John, who's a former student of mine. So and it always aggravates him. So some of what I'm going to say is a little redundant here. It's do not patronize the project, the protesters. Do not ignore them. Do not make assumptions about what they are thinking or what their position is. Do not assume that one gesture or invitation is sufficient to address the concerns. And do not hope that it will all blow over. That's great. I would love to hear some more on this. So can I send it back to you? So in terms of what to do, I would say the first step might be to actually reach out to the protesters or protesting group and try to understand their concern. And if the cause of their concern cannot be mitigated or eliminated and this by no means means that you should hand over the control of the production or give in to any of the censorship that you might see in that protest. But you know, at least engage with them in that conversation. If you cannot mitigate their concern, then respectfully ask why and attempt a public dialogue with them perhaps as a talk back after the production is like we were talking about. That's great. Valerie? I think the cardinal sin for producers is to be caught unaware. I think that if you're engaged with the community, then you know when you're likely to piss them off. And you make choices about that. And once you you know done that made the decision that I'm going to do this thing anyway just by way of example when I was a graduate student I did a production here of a play called Steve Adore. It was written in 1936. It was about black dock workers in New Orleans. The play used the word nigger 87 times. 87 times. Right? Guess what? I knew black people were not going to be happy. Right? So I did have the step where I thought is every one of these 87 times necessary. Right? That was a step. Then it was well if I'm not going to cut them all why cut any of them. And then I thought about my grandfather who lived in the south in the 1930s who heard the word 87 times a day. So I said people just going to have to deal. Right? The step that happened sort of in the middle was I was willing to be in the post play discussion with my flak jacket and say yes I could see that would upset you. I absolutely can see that it would upset you. And I didn't want to deny the experience of my grandfather and the millions of people like him who lived under this system in the 1930s. And so I made a choice. And I rolled with that choice. I think it's the critical thing for me. We talk about talking with the protesters and let's talk with the protesters. I want to know if there's common ground. If we can find common ground then let's move to it and if we can't let's agree to disagree and keep it rolling. I don't need to go around it for months and months in the press and on the thing and over the thing and around the thing. I want to get to things that we can do to make change and that means we have to those are the places where we can are the places where we find common ground. That's great. Beverly. We need to respectfully invite members of the protest group to tea. Listen to them fully and attentively. Ask them what kinds of remediation is necessary. A public conversation addressing the concerns of the protesters and the goals of the performance might be one option. A post performance discussion group and anti oppression workshop for the cast production team and theater administration including the board. A day long retreat for all those involved or do some theater of the oppressed theater games to explore where this conflict is rooted and how to demonstrate that effectively to audiences. Look at ways to address these issues that are healthy and liberating not censoring. Since this questions come up in the comments I think it might be helpful to go deeper and try to understand some to try to understand why some groups would even protest an arts event. Roger do you want to take that? Well I'll take a little bit of that because basically my I go back to very simple principle. If you have the artistic freedom to do what you want on stage the audience does have the same freedom to say what they think of it. I mean if I mean look let's be real simple let's be real simple here. If you do a half-assed job directing Misha Bershwin is going to tell you that. If you do a half-assed job on racial stereotyping and be lazy about it you are going to hear about that and you should. Thanks. Fern can you share your take on why something that might seem harmless for some might be traumatic for others? Sure but first I'd like to back up just a little bit and add my two cents to what not to do. What not to do is say oh well I've got a native or Asian or Jewish or black friend and they're cool with it they're down with it. Oh I'm sorry I'm the person who came late my name is Fern Renville I'm system Wapaton I'm the managing director of Reddickle Soaring Native Youth Theater and I have been sitting here for the last ten minutes and also debating whether to speak my mind about something that I just have to say this. With all due respect to our non-native allies and supporters who we deeply appreciate if you want advice about how to engage Native community ask a Native person. I don't understand why people who want information go to non-native allies. If people want information about how to respectfully engage African-American community you don't go to African-American allies you go to African-American people. I don't know any ethnic group that still gets spoken for by non- Native people the way that Native people do. Sorry I just have to say that. Okay got that off my chest. Redskins privilege this is just an example that's really alive and dynamic right now in Indian country is the word Redskins. We hear oh don't be so PC don't be so sensitive move on etc etc and in if you can walk around and have the word Redskins only can out football and fun Sundays and tailgate parties then you're privileged. If you have ancestors who 150 years ago were being hunted murdered and having their scalps turned into the state for a $200 bounty then the word has a really different meaning for you. We just I think that non-native people get so much privilege not having to see or feel or think about all of the everything that gets evoked for Native people by say a word like Redskins by the play Peter Pan the list goes on and on and on but I just I know that you're probably I'm you know this is the choir but I apologize I'm sorry I'm really upset right now I'm just really upset I just have to say I I'm just upset that non-native people get asked to speak for native issues and and I'm sorry I'm having trouble moving on from that. Thank you Fern. Toshko yeah Toshko Grace Hazegawa she is the president of the Japanese American Citizens League and she can also provide some additional context but since we're we're taping this we really need everyone to speak into mic. Thank you and I didn't catch her name but I do appreciate your comments and I just want to say that I appreciate that this is a full house right now what a beautiful gesture on behalf of the community the city that we live in that we all love that we've all come here and throughout maybe this generation maybe generations ago I have a mantra and my mantra is everyday good vibes everyday fresh mind now I think I want to start where George's son left off that when there's something and it is I don't know if targeted is too strong of a word towards a group of people especially by race it's not just they're right to stand up and call it out and name it for what it is and the way they perceive it it's their responsibility right now some of the historical context for the Japanese American Citizens League well we're the nation's oldest and largest Asian American civil rights organization in the nation and Seattle is the original chapter founded in response to a need for a community who needed safety and solidarity in a time frame where there was no shortage of discriminatory policies policies that banned access barred access for Asian Japanese to get naturalized that kept us from buying property in certain places that prevented us from marrying white people that took a white person's citizenship away when they married Japanese and the bulk of our membership was actually created no surprise World War two against solidarity maybe because we were forced into that geographically when everything that we owned was taken from us and we were forced to live behind barbed wire fences well the thing is is that the Civil Rights Act was passed 50 years ago America we are one and we are young we're like this rambunctious privileged teenager that gets away with everything and we're just going to push it to the limit because we think we're invincible when when it boils down to it is oh gosh if we go down we all go down and what's our one unifying factor hello it's love it's respect now I really appreciate Karen's comments about our truths being separate and I acknowledge that I feel compelled to say that I was present at the protests that it was not organized by JCL we were invited by a grassroots movement by the community that spoke out and said we need advocacy and we agreed but what does this have to do really with civil rights with the Mikado with with the play with artistic expression it's that please understand for our context this same imagery these caricatures they were used as a tool we know that when this was written in the 1800s this is in a time frame when Japan was closed off Japan to themselves to the rest of the world we know they weren't thinking to hurt anybody what was intended by the production is not the same as what was perceived by the community and that's the difference in our truths when we go and we went to spread awareness about what our truth was we should have known that we would hit a wide range of reactions from let's talk to outlandishly yeah I'm racist but you know what when I got home honestly I must speak honestly because I'm amongst community family I felt like I just got my ass beat my head hurt I was tired you know what I was depressed too and I really did not want to go back the next day I did and then I consulted with my mentor Sharon Tamiko Santos she has a long history of civil rights activism herself and I just thought out loud I said WW MLK JD right what would Martin Luther King Junior do and you know what when he's protesting he probably would have felt the very same human things that we felt hurt anger but that wouldn't have intervened with his message and so I would like to say that I appreciate the reaction that there's been so much thought about how can we adjust to make room for respect from what your truth is and that the J ACL has also had conversations because when we name it you can't say change to a way that pleases me indiscreetly no I am we're actually also willing to host a training this is the very beginning phases but we are talking about trainings on how to effectively demonstrate in a way that is also respectful because it the human reaction of being defensive also got a very human reaction of the protesters which turned into offensive as well thank you so much Toshco what's I think it's really important to understand because a lot of people didn't quite understand why there was so much sensitivity around these different portrayals that we might see and it's for people of color in this country and especially Asian Americans Latino Americans and Native Americans there's so few depictions of us in film television popular culture and on stage and then when there are depictions and they're stereotypical or or even worse they're not even portrayed by us so that we can help try to bring some authenticity to it the reality is is that it skewers the perception that the majority of Americans have of who we are and it's if in an ideal society there were more depictions that then random depictions here and there might be less of an issue but until that time any any depiction that there is when there's so few it can have a much larger impact on the community that is being portrayed so just out of curiosity to the panel up here how many of you regularly see realistic three-dimensional and actually for you in the audience as well how many of you regularly see realistic three-dimensional representations of people who look like you in popular culture on a regular basis and how many of us have yet to see realistic three-dimensional representations of people who look like us on a regular basis and it's just an example of the fact that things are still a little bit inequitable in our country yes please about this point I raised my hand that I do see these representations and it has a lot to do with other black people other black artists making them creating them I don't necessarily see those representations on mainstream stages great thanks Val so Lauren Goldman Marshall are you here Lauren did she get here yet oh there we go so Lauren is a playwright and a theater teaching artist and former producing artistic director of Seattle Public Theater and Lauren has a very personal example to share yeah so I got very interested in this controversy because I have two daughters and my younger daughter who's nine is adopted from China and she was actually in Seattle Public Theater's manga inspired version of the Makata my other daughter is 13 and she's Jewish like me and Kathy asked me to comment on what is the effect on my daughters of seeing stereotypical images of their culture on stage and what I thought of and this is a really good lead in from the last question is one problem is seeing them at all there's really two issues they're seeing the stereotypical issues and stereotypical depictions and then there's the share absence of them my daughters are very attuned to stereotyping in the media and they will point out to me on their own accord when they see this happening and I'll give you an example Barbie in the dream house it's a popular television show that's aimed at elementary school girls Barbie is blonde she's the protagonist Raquel is Asian she's competitive often sort of ruthlessly competitive often pitted as the comic antagonist against Barbie another show Total Drama which is very popular it's a teenage animated takeoff on Survivor my 13 year old wanted me to tell you it's a great show but for the first three seasons there was the character Heather who is depicted as Asian and she is ruthlessly competitive it's after all it is a takeoff on Survivor she will stop at nothing to win and she's not the only Asian character on the show there's another one who maybe fits another stereotype that has often been seen in the past of Asian girls is very docile and submissive but what when this just happens once you know you can say well that was just that show but when you see a time and time again what my daughters are seeing is a common stereotype of Asian characters typically female but that may just be the shows they watch that seem to have all been raised by tiger mothers you know and I think what it does is it reflects American uneasiness about our competitiveness these of each China so and it reminds me of past stereotyping of Jews is kind of conniving and you know money grabbing and doing anything to get ahead and now we starting starting to see that happen with with Asian characters as well so that's one issue is the stereotyping and as my daughters will say to me in these shows the bad characters they always have black hair or if they don't have black hair it's artificially died like some chartreuse or white or something and the blonde characters are you know either the likeable protagonist or the dates right and the brown hair characters you know are sort of the normal plain ones if they appear at all and so the other issue is absence the Barbie lineup so Barbie Disney has a lineup of its princesses and you have first of all you have to be in a super popular show to even get in the Disney lineup well if you look at those photographs of the princess lineups it's almost always it's always I've never seen an exception to this a white princess in front it's usually Cinderella or Merida or next year it'll be Elsa but it's always the white ones are in front and there's one of each color there's Pocahontas there's Jasmine there's Tiana and there's Mulan and they're usually to the side and somewhat to the rear so my girls see this and what they also see is there's no Jewish princess at all and there has been I don't know if there ever will be and the and there's and of the princesses of color there's just one of each so Disney is saying well okay we'll have one representative for the Asian girls and one representative for the black girls it took them to what 2009 to come up with the African American princess but we can have all of these princesses for everybody but that's the assumption is that one is enough so there there's only the problem is is that if there are positive representations there's only one and you have to like that one so when my my younger daughter my Chinese daughter was five I said to her it was it's time to clean out the toy room let's pick up all the toys she don't want to come to the consignment store so she gathered up all her Asian dolls for disposal and left the Caucasian ones and I said well what are you doing why don't you want these dolls anymore and she sort of evaded answering me but finally she came out and said well they don't have pretty dresses so I reached a compromise with her I said well I'll tell you what we'll sew some dresses for your dolls if you will keep these dolls and so that was okay and we made dresses for the dolls but you know what she was seeing is Milan with her you know man clothes and her you know her she does have a pretty silk dress but it could not compare with Belle and Aurora and Cinderella and their elaborate ball gowns so she's getting the message from the pervasive culture and probably compounded in her case by being a transnational adoptee and a white family in a white culture she's getting the message that the blonde haired princesses are are the better ones and so you know when I see what we're talking about in the theater that's just the tip of the iceberg and I think we have to look at the broader media messages that kids are getting from television and film and we have to start fixing it here and hope that it moves into those other genres as well. Thanks Lauren. We want to just focus a little bit on the impact that some of this all these issues about race and and and representation have on kids in the next generation. Andy Jensen who is a director and producer and he also serves on the invite committee for the 1448 World's Quickest Theater Festival. We had actually a really fascinating conversation because he also is a white father who has adopted transnational youth. His daughter Elizabeth is Chinese American and he also has a son who is black and we were talking especially in light of recent events about are there things I mean they're both really young still but the kind of conversations as a parent that you have to prepare your kids for that might be different just because of the color of their skin and how they might be treated out in public because of that and I was wondering Andy if you can respond. Hi what my wife and I have decided since we don't our family doesn't look a lot like everybody is I would start with with ourselves and to be honest with our children because of the color of your skin there will be some people who are going to think you're going to act in a certain way and that's on them. You have the power to behave the way you want to behave and show them otherwise and we kind of start from and we've kind of started from there again for you know they're eight and three and a half so when Joe sees a cop car he's really excited because of the sirens and it goes fast but we know that we're going to be have to have that conversation with him that if he runs quickly in public somebody might think he stole something and that when he learns to drive if he gets pulled over to keep his hands on the wheel at all times and that's the reality but on the good side and there's a lot of good stuff with the media fortune fortunately not all of it my daughter's not thrilled about Milan doesn't like playing with boys so that that story was just kind of done for her from that perspective but you know fortunately our kids are young enough they enjoyed Doc McStuffins which is an African-American girl who is a doctor for her stuffed animals and others other toys in the neighborhood and it's an amazing role model for any kid and that character is really crossing over in so many for so many other families Sid the science kid is a multiretual family dad is white mom is black and there's Sid he loves science and he's got curly hair I'm not sure what else I can really say but except that that as artists whatever sort of art we do our actions have an impact on our audience whether we intend them to be that way or not and we have to take responsibility for that great thank you so much Andy we we actually had a number of people who wrote in specifically asking if we could have some people talk about the fact that all families because this is a casting thing right all families do not look like each other and they wanted that represented so thank you both for sharing Bob Williams who is an actor living voices actually brought up a really unique point that we just want to give him an opportunity to voice thank you and thanks everybody for coming here it's nice to see this this crowd here especially in this time we as it's been said before our 50 years since the or almost 50 years since the passing of the civil rights act and we got rid of the signs that said white and colored but the signs that white and colored for a purpose they said something about those people and who they are but whites a color and blacks a color what if those signs said black and bleached so I say that many times a living voices and people chuckle about the idea of white people being called bleach but nobody raised an eyebrow when I said colored and that's part of the problem we still have in America as we sit in Seattle just north of the Puyallup fairgrounds which is used as an internment camp and just south of Lake City way where they put the Coon chicken in after many black people went and fought in a segregated army against Hitler a few weeks ago I was at a forum over in the black box theater at center house and several of the well-meaning people who are looking to answer these same questions we're talking about looking for ethnic actors and that hit me and punch me in the gut again thank you for your words and you just you just reminded me of my talisman from my youth which was a Julia lunchbox if everybody remembers the one season Diane Carroll show my mom searched everywhere because the show only lasted one season and they actually made a lunchbox with the characters from Julia on it and it was important for her to give me that because of all the lunchboxes in school that I saw mine was the only one that had a black child a actual live photograph of a living black child not a cartoon on it it was right on the top of the box whenever I reached down for that handle I saw a black kid looking at me and that was very very rare in history anyway though my point is I was reminded of that word ethnic and what that means in lines of white and colored and seeing white people as neutral natural regular or normal and when we do that when we normalize what white is we make everybody else the other as opposed and when we think about that and we think of casting and when we think about that and when we think of casting if a white person is racially neutral or ethnically neutral then they can play anyone and then you get John Wayne as Genghis Khan and then you get the the Prince of Persia is Jake Gyllenhaal and the last samurai is Tom Cruz and just few days ago when I was coming here to see 1448 I stopped in at Bartels and everybody go there and look at aisle 12 and you will see an aisle 12 ethnic care as the sign above and now look in the on black people probably already been there looking for our products to get it did and you'll see on the boxes in the ethnic care I'll only black people so if our culture if our city is still telling us these things and we're still absorbing them and every child that shops at Bartels and every adult that picks up anything sees those still there what can we do when we think about who we cast as a person I would love to play people on stage and because of great entities like 1448 I've played Elvis Presley and then Dick Cheney because of the way they do what they do there is their way we as a community can continue to do that and open up parts as people for all kinds of people to realize that every one of us here is some ethnicity or other just really really really briefly about three weeks ago I made a post post on Facebook that said you know I get called a lot when people are looking for black actors they call me and they say do you have any like I have by like there's binders of women there's binders of black people there's binders of Asian people and you know historically in all my time here I've just I've called people and I've said are you interested in this and I've tried to facilitate mainstream theaters casting ethnic actors black actors sometimes Latino actors sometimes Asian actors in in roles that are written for them and I had this epiphany that I've become part of the problem in that I wasn't also on the back end requiring a conversation with these producers that says and so tell me how you approach nontraditional casting that tell me that you actually ask every director who pitches a project to you whether or not in fact the possibility exists for nontraditional casting and do you as an institution actually understand the difference between colorblind casting and nontraditional casting and if you don't then you're not doing it right and and also the same relationships that were telling you to build with audiences that that are diverse you must also build with artists who are diverse that long-term invested in their wholeness and the and their potential to deliver amazing performances in lots of different arenas and so I'm I'm not going to do it anymore unless I can have that conversation and hear about the processes that these theaters are using to make the community look more like it looks in life thanks well thanks well so so given all that how can an arts organization take an older work and make it meaningful for a contemporary audience Michael Allen had a specific example that worked for him as an audience members Michael Michael here hello this is about the STG so at the Moore Theater a few months ago there was a present April there was a presentation of birth of a nation remixed by Paul Miller and so that's a controversial film about the founding of the KKK and the Civil War it was controversial at the time it's controversial now more so of course so at this when the audience comes in STG had spectrum do character reenactment or historical reenactment of reviews that were written at the time or letters that were sent in or published in papers in new newspapers so the audience had context about what they were about to see and of course Paul Miller was remixing this to give it a new context anyway but they also talked to him after at the end of the showing I guess I feel like this is you would you wouldn't show birth of the nation at Pacific Place next to you know guardians of the galaxy and just expect that that was okay you need to give a context and show how the world is different than it was I haven't I really want to just let you know that the next person I actually had to ask again and again and again if you'd be willing to talk and mostly because in this actually really inspired me because we've had lots of conversations over the last couple weeks be email in person and he's really shown me that he really wants to listen and hear and that's why he told me he didn't want to be up on stage he wanted to be here specifically to listen to what the conversation was so he could take notes and really learn but he just came back literally last night after midnight we were emailing each other because he just got back from a wonderful opportunity where he it's actually it's Mike's story who is the producer with Seattle Gilbert and Sullivan Society and there was a summit that he was sharing with me that happened where they literally came up with a brainstorm list with a lot of other Seattle Gilbert and Society groups all around the country and they came up with a very brainstorm list of almost 50 suggestions and responses for how an organization can produce historic work in a way that they can still make it and provide that context and make it work possibly with in a way that's respectful for other communities so Mike would you mind standing up and just sharing a few of those thank you so much as Kathy mentioned our show closed two and a half weeks ago and Thursday I and a member of our board went to San Francisco to meet with 15 other Gilbert and Sullivan societies from around the country there would have been probably twice that many except the International Gilbert and Sullivan Festival is going on right now in England where I'm sure it's also a topic of discussion essentially there were a lot of differing views there were people there from New York City norm in Oklahoma several places in Texas the lamp lighters which is a very large company in San Francisco and we or at least I acknowledge that there is a phenomena called the white man's privilege and it has existed for what thousand years who knows it was rampant in Victorian times Victorian England was very jingoistic and we've had the privilege if you want to call it that of putting on blackface or whatever costume we want and playing on the stage and then taking off and going home and we disappear what we need to do is take works and there's a lot of them beside the micado obviously and get the context up to date and some of the suggestions had to do doing exactly that there was a Mr. Louis I forget his first name off and from MSNBC who flew out here to interview us filming some of the shows you probably saw on YouTube Richard Richard Louis sure and he made the statement that the micado was currently running in 46 states and I was flabbergasted that that number was so low I would guess if it wasn't for the festival it would be running running several places in all the states the micado to Gilbert and Sullivan is sort of like a Christmas Carol is to a theater company or the nutcracker is to a ballet company it sells out it's a very good show it has great music and a goofy but very funny plot but there's no question that it will offend some people the goal here is to be able to produce the micado in such a way that the context is taken care of in a way that people will understand it can be changed can't some of the suggestions were good some were ridiculous changing the name of Nankipoo to Frankie poo probably won't fool anybody you know Gilbert really wanted to pay homage to the beauty of Japan as he understood it of course Japan has been open to the West and he made mistakes if you read or study it at all he really wanted to do it right as he did with most of his shows unfortunately over 130 years the concepts have changed somewhat people have condemned the use of the name of a town to the pool like it was junior high school dirty talk really there is a town chichi boo that not only was the model but imported silk England and now has a Gilbert and Sullivan society and they brought their micado all the Japanese actors to England to the festival and it was very well received we are open to any kind of suggestions and certainly will reach out to whoever can help us as consultant the director would have you I've said several times I personally was sandbag by this whole thing that first article particularly I grew up in Seattle went to Garfield high school knew all kinds of Japanese people and nobody ever said they were hurt or bothered by the micado they knew it was silly they knew it was about England but I can see it does hurt somebody there's no way that I as a white man can get into the head of somebody of a different ethnicity nor can you get into my head I've got a couple of issues but I try to keep under control anyway we have had in the past dozen years ago we did the micado 20% of the cast was Asian the problem we have is that we cast whoever auditions for the show and I guess we need to find a better way to get more Asians to audition for that particular show we have one Asian on our board of trustees okay you can say so what these I think it was seven Asians that auditioned all got into the show they were made up just like everybody else they were the same costumes and it just just went and so you had mentioned that when people call you looking for an ethnic actor I'd like to talk to somebody who's an expert in ethnic studies but they have to know something about the theater the history of the micado and go through and see well what is it that is really hurtful can it be set somewhere else people tried that it sometimes works what can we do to make it right or better and as somebody else pointed out nobody's forcing you to go to the show anyway I'm very happy that we're all here starting this discussion we started it in San Francisco we probably won't do the micado for six years or so because we rotate all of Gilbert Sullivan shows but there are other companies and other states that are going to be doing it next season and they are actually asking for help in this so again this is just a start the San Francisco trip was a good start and hopefully we can keep the dialogue going and I can't take credit for all of this but thank you so much thank you so much one of the things one thing that Mike emailed me just this afternoon actually that I loved and I hope you don't mind me sharing this this is one of the 50 suggestions was a way to begin is starting with cultural humility we oftentimes don't know when when asking to do work of another culture we don't know we don't know what it's like to be a person of another culture looking at the experience generations of racial trauma that been inherited finally being spoken about and coming to the surface now is the time to bring light to the things that have taken place that we are uncomfortable talking about the work might have come from a very different culture and it's time it's being re-evaluated and we're going to be inclusive let's look at this work and how can we all work together to make things better and I think that goes back to some things that Fern was talking about and and everyone in the room so thank you so much for sharing that with me today thanks so now to talk about some best practice strategies for a company wanting to do work that represents a culture that is different from their own is Irene Gomez who is the program manager with the the Seattle office of arts and culture Irene thank you Braden I also wanted to say I'm the co-founder of la sala a collective that supports and coalesces Latino Hispanic artists yeah I thought that and this is really reiterating what has been said earlier I think it more definitely doesn't hurt to repeat it and that is to engage scholars like we have tonight master artists peer artists and community members as advisors and interpreters and translators to give feedback at either previews or staged readings thank you thanks Irene Beverly did you want to add to that yes I should mention that I teach art for social change at UW in Tacoma and my students make art about many different topics one of the courses I teach is called cultural identity in art and over the years I've been there for 11 years my students have changed a lot in terms of the populations they represent now I would say two-thirds of my students if not more identify as people of color and it's not very difficult to do work with them about white privilege they get it so it's really important if you're going to be doing this work to do anti-pression work about privilege before developing art projects dealing with cultures other than your own it's also important to be mindful of cultural appropriation issues so many people don't even know what that means but that's happening all the time Madison Avenue taught us how to do it so well and we need to stop thinking it's okay always have bridges into the communities you're choosing to represent in your work and when I say a bridge I don't mean a token I mean somebody who really is going to be talking with you in solidarity with you who respects you whom you respect as well and don't make assumptions behave respectfully and ethically in relation to cultures other than your own all the time thank you thank you Beverly deflection and I think we all know that and we've said that even in the ground rules but it's seldom done in practice I think the micado is a really good example of a lot of deflection and not listening to people who have an issue with the play Desdemona Chang who's the director for Athea Troupe she really wanted to be here but she was not able to get her flight at the last minute from where she is right now but she's submitted these questions give specific examples of projects or productions where one culture represents another in a meaningful successful way how was it handled who was on the creative team what was the process who was the audience Augusta can you talk briefly about your experience at act sure so a few years ago act put up a production of the Ramayana which is a sacred religious ancient Hindu text that originated in India but is very popular and worshipped more than revered but worshipped in a number of countries throughout South Asia and Southeast Asia and Kurt and I had a discussion about this probably years before he actually had solidified this idea that if it was even possible and the one of the first questions he said is how am I gonna do this this old white man and and so he the thought was very clear in his mind right from the beginning when the project did finally shake take shape act reached out to a number of artists in various communities where Ramayana was known and popular and familiar and subject matter experts and then gradually to the communities themselves beyond just artists and subject matter experts they created a group of people that included people from India from Nepal from Thailand from Cambodia Vietnam Myanmar Sri Lanka I think number of others I'm sure that I'm forgetting right now and and created this this board that they called the Ramayan ambassadors and these ambassadors were then reaching out into the community and reaching back into the the artistic creative team for Ramayana and making sure that things were getting done in inclusion of the community and with the support of the community and involvement of the community this was no longer act doing a production of Ramayana and putting it up on stage but act partnering with all the different communities possible in a production of the Ramayana not every complaint or advice or point raised by the ambassadors was obviously included in the show the directors kept control of the artistic quality and decisions but what was clear was that we were sensitive to the religious nature of the text we were inclusive of all the people that were familiar with the story and that we were true to the actual intent of the text itself in the production of the Ramayana thank you and Annie can you share about your experience about working on Hotel in the Corner of Bitter and Sweet I directed a couple years ago Hotel in the Corner of Bitter and Sweet for a book at Repertory Theater and book it has a history of doing multicultural pieces but this was certainly my first time the play had 21 actors 17 of which were Asian American local actors I think the first thing I had to do was acknowledge that I was absolutely terrified and to breathe through that and figure out what comes next and so I reached out very early on to Kathy to become my consultant because I knew that this story was a local story and we had to take it as a company as myself as a director to another level because we were telling a story that existed on the streets here in Seattle in this community and it was a huge and terrifying responsibility so I knew I needed Kathy by my side because I knew that she had information cultural information that I did not have and she and I and book it worked together to pull together a committee we pulled together folks from Wing Luke from the Nisei Museum the Japanese Cultural and Community Center we brought a number of the Chinese community together and we had a meeting and was very specific about getting information and help when we needed help when I needed help understanding my cast was Filipino American Korean American Thai those that played Japanese American sometimes were Chinese Americans and Chinese Americans were playing Japanese Americans so as a cast we talked a lot about getting it culturally right we were all very dedicated and it was very important to us to work very diligently to speak Cantonese correctly and speak the Japanese correctly and if we were doing a tea ceremony and needed to be done correctly we were all very dedicated to that and the rehearsal room was very much a collaborative process I needed everyone's input they knew very often better than I did I was simply holding that the chalice together and we were together creating this piece book it gifted me with an incredible scenic designer Kerry Wong who has a history his grandfather was Chinese American his grandfather wore the sign I am Chinese here in the Pacific Northwest he knew exactly the experience and he wanted to represent it on the stage so I spent countless of hours with him deep in the archives of Wing Luke trying to make it culturally correct and then we reached out to for culture and they paid for a staged reading of the play that we then took out to the community out to the Chinese community the Japanese internment organization we performed it because it was also important to me and important to book it that the community came to see this piece I didn't want them to hear about the piece that we were doing about their experience I wanted them to come and that meant the responsibility level jumped to another just astronomically huge and you know had to get it right so we we we made a huge effort to reach out to that community to tell them who what we were doing and the story was about them and that we wanted their feedback and we wanted them to come so it was a very long process but it was a very deliberate process and in the end we sold out before we opened and that was a huge a coup for a book at yes but for me what it what what meant the most was that the audience was so diverse and it was so powerful and the experiences of those who lived it came up to us afterwards and that was incredible thanks any so how can arts organizations demonstrate that they truly want to be more inclusive what are some other ways that we can do that for you do you want to offer some tips I can speak to engaging native community I'd start first by saying that most native people are incredibly proud of our culture and our resiliency and are happy to share happy to teach in my own experience what can lead to success is understanding that native arts entities or groups are receiving a disproportionately smaller amount of funding dollars and have capacity issues so don't invite them downtown to look for parking and take staff time out to visit your well-funded organization go to where we are go hang out with native people look for local tribes the people who are here originally I think that's always helpful to understand that you have urban Indians and you have your tribal Indians and also that Indians aren't homogenous in radical starting we have over 36 different tribes represented and the majority of them aren't from the Northwest but mostly just take yourself to where native people are and go spend time with them don't expect that we're going to come and hang out for a couple hours and you're going to learn a lot really it takes a much deeper investment time and funding than that. Thanks very well how about you any any tips for inclusion? Well it's interesting you know I feel a little bit conflicted even being a part of this discussion because the moment that I rise to speak I'm problematized because it's all I ever think about is race right because that's all I that's that's a totality of my intellectual artistic creative impulses is actually it's all about race all the time and so just even to be up here as part of this conversation is a little bit stress producing for me. So what I will say about inclusion I have experienced it efforts at it in many different ways in my time here in Seattle for seven years of the Hansbury project was inside the incubator of act theater and there were some glorious and some horrendous results of that experience. We made some really really beautiful things and we also struggled to figure out how we would talk to each other. I was blessed to be able to sit in leadership meetings with them for five years. I was there for season planning I was there for discussions about marketing I was and as a result of that quite frankly for five years act was the only of the big three that actually had a person of color in the room when any of those conversations were happening and I applaud them for that. I have worked with the Yentemann theater and my great gift both first with Kate Wuruski and with Andrew Russell is that they come to me and they say what is it that you want to do. What like what is it you want to do. And and so I wanted to do trouble in mind and so I did trouble in mind but I also wanted to do the zoo story Edward Albert Edward Alby's play we couldn't get the rights but Andrew didn't look at me and say well since we can't get the rights what black play do you want to do. You know in in in 20 years of living here I've been a director out of school for the significant portion of them and I've been asked to direct the not black play only five times. So theaters that want to be inclusive have to actually be inclusive. Like you actually have to do it. There's a wonderful book called an invitation to the party that talks about how to how to make relationships with communities and and to make them with artists. It is both important that we think about the large cultural groups and it's also important that we think about the individuals and the relationships that a theater company builds with artists are built one artist at a time. It's it really does require that you ask the question of every project is there room for other kinds of casting than what we traditionally think of and it's incumbent on producers to demand that directors actually think about that because we can be lazy as the next person. It's important that we ask that question. I think that that to include people in conversations beyond just the particular project that you need them for is important. I have a tremendous relationship with with Andrew at the Intamon and I begun to find that there are lots of theaters that are interested in collaborating. I have to also know what I want when I go into collaboration which took me a little while to learn because I was just quite frankly happy to be getting my shit up. Do you know like wherever whatever I'm working. Yay. And and now I'm a lot more savvy about the ways to have the conversation. How does it benefit my company. How does it benefit my community. What's the long term investment from your theater in the community. The other piece for me has been when I do a work in a partnership with a quote unquote mainstream I.E. White Theater. The expectation is that what I'm delivering are black audience members. OK now let's just look at the census and have this conversation. Right. What I'm actually delivering is an audience that's interested in the stories that these are artists are telling. And that's a far bigger potential growth demographic for a producer in a city that's got 8 percent black people like less than 50 thousand. You know like that's that's a different kind of conversation and when producers get that and we start talking about ways that we can expand the audience for the work that includes often artists of color communities of color it also includes talking to the white community about why they should care about these stories about people who don't look like them. And that's a huge part of the work that that white theaters that white producers can do is to educate their audience to be interested in our stories and and to be interested in the conversations that come out of the difficulties when we sit next to each other in our difference and watch the similar event and then try to talk about it. Like that's what mainstream theaters can do. Thank you. Thanks. Really quickly we're going to we're going to skip around a little bit so go along with me for the ride. Is there any other suggestions that you might have about what could make a partnership more equitable because actually I think Valerie just hit the nail on the head when she said that it's oftentimes it feels like folks are just dropping in to get a little something and then move on when they're done rather than building a long term relationship that has its own merits that actually I can't put it any better than that. Okay I did have one specific example Victor Pappas and Mark Jenkins who are two local longtime theater community people they want to be here and I want them to actually share an example that they're doing right now. Mark wrote a play called Red Earth and has a longer time with that it's basically about the Khmer community or most people might refer to them as the Cambodian American community and he when they were starting to develop this act was helping them develop the script one of the things they quickly realized is even if they reach out to every single Asian American actor in this town there aren't very many Khmer actors period and even if they reached out nationwide to try to fly them in there wouldn't even be enough to possibly fill out the casting requirements of this play. So one of the unique strategies they did is they actually decided to in talking with the Khmer community and having some cultural advisors within the community working with them in developing the piece they actually decided to start offering acting classes and they've been doing this for all throughout the spring and the summer they're committed to continuing it. We've been having long conversations about now they want to broaden out because one of the things they realize is the next step for these young actors is they need to actually work with some professional actors to get to that next level. So we'll be opening up to a broader grouping of Asian American actors and then they want to continue it after them they're volunteering their time to do this but they felt that was one way to really bridge and create a relationship in the community. Let's see Pamela I'm giving to you Pamela Miatov who is the artistic director of Annex Theatre something that playwrights can actually do to help create greater awareness for directors because sometimes directors won't think of it themselves. I just want to talk a little bit about combating laziness everybody no matter how well-intentioned everybody of every race comes in with their certain set of assumptions about what normal looks like what attractive look like what what's compelling and too rarely those are challenged and sometimes when those are challenged those base assumptions are challenged they're kind of swept away with questions of what's marketable what's easy what what else can we do that we don't have to try so hard and I just wanted to share something I worked on a play with a very wise and talented playwright named Courtney Meeker and Courtney in her play Buckshot wrote on the character page this is page two of her script underneath the listing of characters she put this note families can be multiracial members of friend groups do not look like copies of each other and the default appearance of these characters should not be able bodied slim Caucasians in short this should not be a homogenous looking cast and certainly not all white Courtney may never ever be in the room when any of her plays are cast but it is not possible to read her play without this in your brain and I would challenge everybody who is ever involved with casting a show write this out in long hand on an index cards stitch it on a cross-stitch sampler any time you cast a play any time you read a play before you pick it up think families can be multiracial members of friend groups do not look like copies of each other and the defaults of parents of these characters should not be able bodied slim Caucasians and ironically right after Pam Pamlet sent in her comment Roger actually sent me a script and the playwright Alexandra Collier actually included under her cast list let not everyone on stage be white specifically so it seems to be a growing trend with playwrights and it's just a great reminder for directors Val this is where I wanted to talk about your call to artistic is there any other suggestions that you have in terms of I think if we could just get people to ask the question you know does can the world look different than the way that it would look if I didn't ask the question like that just that fun will fundamentally change what we see on stage and I don't know if David Shea who is the managing artistic director with okay you can get my call I finished this introduction he's the managing artistic director of Repertory Actors Theater it is one of the only theaters that actually specifically calls out in their vision and every single production that they do that they are Seattle's multicultural theater and specifically ask this question with every single production can you just talk a little bit about maybe your current production and how that played a role in in casting sure well our currently our current production is a play called Time Stand Still by Donald Margolies which I saw and brought away in 2010 with the all white cast of course it was scripted that way in our production we have in the lead part a mixed race woman and in another part an Asian-American woman where it's obviously not scripted that way in regard but the parts aren't that doesn't say this needs to be a white woman this needs to be you know what a white man whenever I read a play I just I'm open to that to that the possibilities and you know and oftentimes in casting we have to go out and reach and find people and encourage additional people to audition and and audition again and hold additional auditions to diversify the parts and and and to consider well you know this this doctor it's usually played by a man it can be played by a woman or it can be played by someone who's disabled or someone who's really old or really young and and when the script says you know this is a 30 year old somebody somebody that actors are actors you know I know some 50 year olds that look like they're 25 and I know some 25 year olds look like they're 40 and just to you know just to keep it to keep keep keep the possibilities open and and honestly it just creates more opportunities for everybody and and thank you I just want to say one more thing and that's that if there are organizations out there that are doing the things you want to see in the world and are are expressing and showing stages that actually look like the real world is to please go out and support them please do honestly I've been running react for 20 years now over 20 years and you know we've had some really big hits and we've had some wonderful productions that nobody saw nobody saw because honestly when you're a small to mid-sized theater company there's always going to be someone newer and hotter and a new group that's getting all the press and there's always going to be the big established theaters they're also also getting all the press and it's a small mid-sized theaters you know the ones the the ones that sort of you know become like the group or become like Alice B they get to a certain point and they lose the coverage they lose the people they lose and we're the important theaters because this is where people this is where artists young artists new artists get their training and and and get the experience in the chops to move on to other cities and other projects and other companies that are larger it shouldn't always be a struggle and and if you support this topic please support the organizations that do what you want them to do thank you thanks I was actually going to make that plug for you one of the things that you know if there's a positive take away that everyone could take away from this room is that there is one thing about you know standing up for things that you don't believe in but what is especially important because it's so easy for us to always complain criticize put down things that we don't like it's much much rarer for us to stand up for the things that we truly believe should be happening and how do we support those people those organizations those artists those principles it's by showing that positive reinforcement and if there's nothing else that you get out of coming here tonight hopefully that is the one thing is what do you stand up for what do you believe in and that's what we should be standing up for and Val I'd actually love to have you you had submitted a very specific question and gauntlet for the Seattle community and beyond can you provide that I don't have to answer it though right what makes this time different because we do this really well Seattle does this like let's have a community feeling moment and make sure that everyone feels good about everyone else's opinion and that we just are all love I'm a double Virgo I want to know what the heck happens next what what are you willing to do producers to make it different what are you willing to do artists to make it different what are you willing to do audiences to make it different because if we're here six years from now when Mike does the micado again having not learned a single thing it's on us we it's on us this room seeds the ambassadors seeds the conversation each one of us can can begin to help move things forward I'm not I'm not coming up here again I'm just saying I'm not coming up here again and I just want to really quickly ask Lara Davis from our office and Diana Falchuk from the Seattle office for civil rights have been calling through things and is there anything that raises that you want to make sure we don't get lost surprisingly enough a lot of the questions that were brought forward have been addressed by panel and those in the audience but there was a question that was brought forward based on something that Beverly said earlier and it's just a term check can you describe cultural appropriation anybody on this panel can answer that question I'm sure but there are many different examples and just think about Disney and the way that Disney in a movie like Pocahontas is appropriating all kinds of things think about when I've had students graduate students who think oh I really love things that come from ex culture and I want to use that in my work are you a member of the ex culture no what culture you from oh I don't like mine I you know I'm kind of ashamed of mine I want to be in that culture oh I don't have a culture you know it's I'm a hybrid and you know I don't know what my culture is but I want to be part of that one and they end up using it without any understanding of the tradition they haven't spoken to any of the elders they haven't spoken to anyone they just have this idea of its beauty and its romance and it's it's kind of sick and it shows that really they need to do some work on themselves and look at their own internalized shame their own internalized self hate and try and figure out where the pieces that I need to repair where are the wounds in my my own family background and maybe once they address that they won't feel so needy of other people's cultures thanks we want to thank all of you for having taken the time to come here this is just a beginning this is just one conversation and we will create change and things will be different and we won't be having the same conversation six years from now and to that effect Jeff can you close this out sure listen I want to I want to thank all the folks up here on stage can you give everybody a big round of applause please and all the people yeah and to all the people in the audience who had the courage to to share what they had to say as well yeah thank you I want to give a really big thank you to to Kathy for for leading us through this tonight and for all your amazing work thank you so much I want to thank the the Seattle Office of Arts and Culture our partners at for culture in the office of of human rights the Seattle Rep staff again for making this happen tonight all of you for being here we're so grateful to have you in our home thank you for being a part of this the lobby is going to stay open until 9 30 I hope you'll stick around talk meet some folks and let's talk about some of what we heard tonight and again thank you so much for being here we'll see you soon thanks y'all