 Welcome everybody to the private property farming podcast. My name is Mbali Nwaka your host every Tuesdays and Thursdays at 8 p.m This is episode 114 and our title for tonight's Conversation is planting programs for small scale farmers So if you if you're a small scale farmer struggling with the planting program or a growing program Or you just don't have markets and don't know what comes first Do you go out and seek markets or do you develop a growing and planting program so that you could service markets? I think this conversation might be quite helpful because we we're speaking to a young agripreneur ceo of desert green farming Uh, I think I pronounced that correctly, but he'll correct me just now and his name is dumalo chiloine Um, sorry, it's desert green africa. I believe and uh, yes I'm speaking to dumalo chiloine and he will tell us all about how he works together with informal traders As well as small scale growers or small scale farmers And connect the two as well as come up with solid planting programs or growing programs That could assist a small scale farmer at the end of the day to be able to service the informal market And he's got a very interesting Solution to this he's bought in a tech element, which I'm quite keen and interested to hear If you have any questions for would be mellow this evening Please just drop a question in the comment section we're more than willing to answer your question and uh, we love engagement we love we love hearing from you at the farming podcast family and uh, please like share and subscribe and uh Yeah, if you missed this episode go on to our youtube channel and you could obviously catch this episode 114 on our uh farming playlist under the private property youtube channel So let's get straight into it and let's welcome dumalo. How are you doing dumalo? Good and buddy. How are you? It's a pleasure to join you tonight, man I'm good. Good. It's you you see it. I've been around so many farms of late So i'm just saying desert green farming, you know, I just wish everybody was the farmer, but yeah Is it green africa? Is that is that correct? That's correct. Yes, and we only we always honestly deliberately include the africa by just to make sure that everybody understands that we are coming for the whole continent You know because that's actually what I was about to ask to say not to put pressure on you But are you going, you know throughout the african continent in the next couple of years? I don't know. Is that your dream then? Oh, no Absolutely Absolutely, that's what the target is set on, you know, but yeah, it's still going to be a long journey And yeah at the moment we're still here, but yeah looking forward to having this conversation with you tonight, man Awesome, likewise. So dumalo, let's get straight into it and obviously thank you for your time because I know as in tripping years We're quite busy and especially tripping years in the agri space, you know, we've hit december a lot of farmers are fishing in the high-fell region And bumalanga northwest so we're busy harvesting. So I can imagine it's quite busy on your end But maybe first introduce yourself as uh, who you are and what does desert green africa do So um as introduced my name is dumalo chiloani. I'm the ceo for desert green africa one of the co-founders uh, actually have two other partners that Uh, pilaring me throughout this journey, uh, which has got it been an interesting one. So in a nutshell what uh, desert green does is we we are building mobile solutions for the informal value chain in africa so What we are doing in simple terms is connecting small-scale farmers To informal traders, which are some of the largest buyers of fresh produce in south africa actually So that we are able to have a cheaper faster and more transparent food system Not only just something that Benefits small-scale farmers and the traders that sell themselves But also the end user who buys in the streets because that's what it comes down to when it comes to price So essentially that's what we are building. So in market right now What we have is the marketplace, which is our flagship product We call it green cut. So, uh, that's what we have in market at the moment Right, it's quite interesting to meet an agripreneur who's decided to focus on the informal market Why specifically bringing a tech solution to the informal market and not maybe sell it commercially So, you know, I think maybe just to give a bit of context, right? Uh, specifically in south africa I think We are actually wearing some rosy glasses the level of retail penetration that exists in south africa Actually doesn't exist anywhere else On the continent, you know, we we are the highest ones. I think somewhere close to about 62 63 percent retail penetration and even with that those types of retails they are mostly dominated by The small number of commercial farmers that do exist because Fires like a pick and paste and a surprise and they they honestly speaking do not want to deal with the type of headache that exists You know when it comes to aggregating small scale farmer produce so You find where in the in south africa, then you find a situation where you've got like a parallel agri agricultural market system where you've got the commercial retail market, but also the informal one and Obviously, it was a no-brainer when we started the genu were thinking of small scale farmers need to produce more so we can sell to pick and You know, but along the journey we started seeing the difficulties That come with small scale farmers also being unable to supply those retail markets. So honestly, we just followed the value chain and We realized that of the 2.5 million plus small scale farmers like an overwhelming majority of them rely on the informal value chain which is through market agents through fresh produce markets and If we are to be critically honest It's it's it's a very crippling system for the small scale farmers, you know, very expensive It's unreliable. It's it's not transparent and so I think following that journey became almost of a no-brainer to us to say this is actually where the problems exist and this is what we know So far it's been nothing, but yeah quite an interesting one. I must say yeah, so Talk about talk us through the tech solution that a desert green Africa has founded So Who is actually using it? Is it the informal trader or is it the farmer? Or are you connecting both onto the platform and you're managing that buying? Please just take us through it So what we have built essentially is just a a a platform where both small scale farmers and traders Can meet without too much intervention from us Unlike unlike the traditional agency So on the small scale farmer side Primarily for green card, right? What they will do is When you go to a farm you you will find them producing something at the moment So we make it a plan to be able to take what they are currently producing So from the farmer side, they just have to list the produce that they are currently planting and on the trader side We list the demands what they are currently looking for and once that Interaction starts then this The farmer is able to list what they are able to grow next Based on also what the informal traders say they want going forward, you know, so that's on the green card and Additionally for the small scale farmers they Will also be able to use this data to determine being these planting programs and not just with the market demand but With just the soil sample able to take a soil sample and send it to the nearest soil lab Then our app uses that soil analysis results to auto generate a very simple weekly crop nutrition plan That they can follow for the set crop that is chosen on the platform So that's on the farmer side and on the trader side is essentially a pie Transaction, you know, and then we deliver it to the informal trader stone with Then having to leave their store to go and get some Yeah, because I know having worked with informal traders, you know, they wake up like at 3 a.m 2 a.m June 2 and 4 a.m. They're at the markets by 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock at the table in the townships You know So and then they and then they sit there the entire day to like 6 7 p.m You know and then the next day. It's the same thing again So am I correct in saying with desert green africa? You guys will channel the deliveries So meaning if I'm a farmer in the all the way in uh bubsfontain You'll come collect my peppers and then we'll drop it off at mrs. So-and-so in for slotas for example exactly so in in in in in addition to Just working with the farmers what we also do is actually map the informal traders locations Even though some of them will will tend to move from time to time But the movement is not that much so we'll map in geotech their actual trading locations So that when we are able when we when we send the check Down to the actual like the closest or nearest farm to that group of informal traders We send down a truck to collect the produce and it will drop directly where the informal traders set without them having to They can wake up at normal times like normal people that work They don't have to do the inconvenient traveling in the wee hours of the morning and also Funny enough If the I'm sure you've seen at the markets A lot of them actually Higher even like taxis To to carry stock for them, you know from fresh produce markets to their place of trading Things like that and you you you consider things like food hygiene. They're obviously not ideal. So those are some of the problems that will be Absolutely, so um now how do you pick the farmers? I think earlier on you said that You know, you you're really connecting farmers to the informal traders that are already farming So and you've mentioned of small or certain elements around planting programs, you know, soil analysis, etc So when a farmer wants to come on board with desert green Africa, what is the requirement list that you expect from the farmer and um Do you then create a planting or growing program? Based on what the farmer is farming Or based on what the informal trader would like the farmer to farm so logically the the Planting program will be based on the demands from the informal traders side, but obviously this is progressive Information by so as a new farmer when most of them that want these services The primary thing is market taxes. Small scale farmers will reach out and say yo I'm planting tomatoes. I've got peppers. I've got spinach. This and I I'm not sure where I'm going to sell that But no, I can take them to the fresh produce market, but it's the summer Mainly that's how we meet farms so Which is very important for us to to Try and sell what they are already planting then based on the Demands that we get from informal traders from the interaction with informal traders. We then Give the recommendation of the type of crops to look at for the next one So it's All right, fantastic. How long did it take you to develop this tick? application I think you said green cot and how was the exception like from informal traders as well as small scale farmers Because I also know a gang just dealing with informal traders. They like quick things, you know Compliance is like that technology. It's just not for them. They work mostly with a cash system They want to see the crop they want to buy it and then they go to their table So how was the reception? So firstly, how long did it take you to develop a green cot? And how was the reception like from both ends of the spectrum into having to incorporate this tick into their businesses So green cot was actually the simpler one. I think it took us about six months To build the product up to where it is now What took longer was the crop nutrition formulation that we had to do for for the other side of that, you know But the green cut took about six months and in terms of reception like you are saying Informal traders want things now. So we had to be a little bit Tricky also to it. So We'd initially take the risk, you know, uh, we'd go to the streets would spend some time then actually find out what is currently Short and we would take the risk of going out getting that produce and use that produce to engage with them for Upcoming transaction and essentially that's how it works It's mainly a relationship of trust if you cannot deliver what you say you have and they want it now It's over, you know, so that's that's how we mainly Keep it so the reception has has been like that. Do you have it now and You know, it's it's it's it's an ongoing It's an ongoing journey, you know, the trust is slowly building up but on the farm side I think the relationships have been ongoing for a little bit longer because we've been also, uh, offering um Just the advisory service even though they are not selling through us or anything like that. So we've been able to build some relationship so Mainly the focus now is on the data side Yeah Dumeila, I just want to find out because this is all about planting programs or growing programs How do you think deal with the challenges where farmers are dealing with high input costs and say, you know Yes, Dumeila or green uh, or desert green africa I'd really want to service this green program but prices of input costs have gone up significantly You know, can I instead of one ton? Can I just do 200 kilograms for example? And so how do you deal with the challenge of rising input costs that you might you might face from farmers and also How do you then advise farmers because I presume you guys are not agronomists Uh, you're not so specialist so scientists, etc. Water specialists, etc Um, how do you then assist farmers who are struggling with pests and diseases on their farm so that they can actually meet their growing program? Well, okay, um, so yeah one of the uh, most critical things on the planting program, right from the soil analysis soil analysis results Or with the soil analysis analysis results the main thing to check there is crop suitability first of all which crop is most likely to grow here with the least amount of resources Connected to the uh, climatic region as well, right? That's one of the uh, important things but also From the informal trader side because the demand is for a wide variety of crops We are able to uh, recommend to farmers crops that are a little bit less cheaper to produce But still fetch some reasonable prices In the market, you know, also based on their soil conditions and the climate, you know What to expect in the climatic regions and so Because unfortunately, we don't necessarily have much of an influence on the prices of inputs. We can only try and go Counterproductive against so we we actually our team actually has Uh, a soil scientist and a crop scientist, right? So Is this we we we can Diagnose but treatment usually requires like phytopathologists Specialists, which we currently do not do not have but we are able to diagnose some of these common diseases that farmers experience and recommend solutions Right because again planting programs are typically associated with markets, you know, obviously production and then market Who determines the price does a farmer list a product on the green cart and say this is my price or You know, is it a is it a three-way conversation? Where the informal trader would say no the current market price is giving x the farmer wants x and then you guys You know find a middle ground. So who determines the price in this instance So it's somewhat of a three-way conversation where we So obviously what the growing market prices is so that there isn't somewhat of So so that one person doesn't benefit more than the other but In in the basic mental principle that what we are trying to do is Get small-scale farmers to take charge of their unique Economics on their farms and actually know what their production costs are so that prices can actually be based on that and not only just market fluctuations because there's a lot of I call it a data blackout that causes those market influences that that don't necessarily have anything to do with the production of So that's one of the things that we are trying to change with making this whole market system transparent In real time, you know So yeah, it's it's somewhat of a three-way conversation and usually we'll find the sweets So what type of commodities are really in demand? Because we typically see small-scale farmers always farming spinach Everybody has spinach du mello And everybody is also struggling with market for spinach because everybody's just flooding the market So it seems like typically small-scale farmers would start off with spinach or cabbage But I think spinach is a most popular commodity. But what are the most fast moving commodities? That is in demand from formal traders so that any small-scale farmers listening could maybe think about planting Look, it will obviously move from season to season, you know, but One some crops that you'll never go wrong with will obviously be tomato or onions. You're your type of occurrence. You're your You know Your butternuts and those are the some of the fast moving crops on the informal trader markets and yes, I think apart from Things like spinach and and cabbage being easy to plant for small-scale farmers I think also most of it is based on the lack Of information of what else is being bought out there Hence the level of flooding for particular type of crops, you know so Yeah, but tomatoes onions pumpkins potatoes those everyday type of consumed That people cook with Those are the ones that we observe to be moving the most and the quickest and of course there's now this current This season is always the highest peak in terms of fruits So your leaches your unfortunately those mainly come from bigger people But those are the types of crops that kind of saturate this And I think with I know personally I tend to forget this, you know Because these informal traders do sell vegetables and fruit But I think every time we deal with small-scale farmers We always tend to focus on vegetables and I think also fruit is such a lucrative one But again, you know just farms fruit in a very small scale Doesn't really reap the rewards As much because But I just want to know from a desert green Africa What have been your challenges as a business as an agripreneur in this space? Firstly dealing with both the informal traders and as well as the farmers and then secondly just building up a tech business Honestly, I think the main challenge has been the trust element I think that's the that's the biggest part You know being able to convince both farmers and traders that you can deliver what you say you can deliver because And it's understandable because most of them's livelihoods like actually depends on what you say you are selling, you know, so That has been one of our biggest challenges in terms of uptake other than that it's The fact that you will probably need to pull from a to z to make a transaction happen because You know, that's the nature of this space. You you you need to organize help organize the logistics. You need to you know, make sure that Transaction is safe in in transit all those things, you know so but Apart from that, I think it's just been mainly the Trust and from a tech perspective The one thing I think that took us a bit of time to understand was the fact that the tech that we are building Really is for ourselves to help us make better business decisions For both small-scale farmers and traders because they honestly don't care much about the tech, you know They want the end product what the value that you are selling so We we that's how we tend to balance our craze a little bit between tech and like real life problems of it so Yeah, and yeah, it's it's been quite an eye opener Yeah, and I mean the advantage here of building a tech business is that you have data, you know, and they say data is king Data is gold So what in future are you willing to do with such data because I totally agree with you informal traders would say There's a green Africa. I want five Let's say 50 boxes of tomatoes here tomorrow at 30 rand or 40 rand That's that's essentially what they will Rate you on right and then the farmer would say green desert green Africa Buy my 50 tomatoes at 35 rand tomorrow and give me cash And if you meet that that is what they will They will rate you on and base you on so As you're gathering this data over time maybe in weeks and months What are you learning to what are you hoping to see? To build out of this data. You said you want to make business decisions What other business decisions could you possibly make because I? I presume that For you guys to be a success is to have many informal traders and many farmers on board But farmers farming a diverse range of crops to meet the meet to meet the demands of the informal trader And that's that so what are you looking to build in the near future as the months go by As the solution improves the tech solution improves from a data perspective What really are you looking to see and uncover? Essentially what we are looking to do beyond just connecting farmers and traders is Essentially build a parallel retail system You know because this is the way that our people buy so Why the data will be important in future is we'll be able to know What an informal traders capacity to sell is in their current location and with All of the map information will be able to know at what other point can This informal trader be able to sell a little bit better to stimulate a higher Production on the farms and once it gets to that level I think the conversation we were having a little bit earlier about financing then starts becoming A lot more viable because then there's now a business case Between both there's a tier demand at a fair and transparent price and there is modern enough supply on the other hand and Questions of finance then become easy a lot more easier to solve with that type of data So I think that's where it's going to be going in the next Yeah, well demela. I think your initiative is fantastic. I mean this business that you're building is fantastic as well When do you guys start there's a green africa and what's next for 2022? So, uh, we started a while back. We actually started on the farm side. We started in 2016 farmed ourselves tried to do the offtake agreement route Rent a lot of money and you know, that's how we actually started building the solution and so yeah It's been since 2016 up until now and the gen is still exciting and and for 2022 Will just be mainly focusing on this close pilot Will be going in For how things so for the next six months will just be ramping up Mainly the logistics system of how to move this produce better quicker and cheaper to this Already existing pool of traders and farmers that we have so it's going to be a little bit of a close pilot But as soon as we start seeing what do we like then we're going to go full launch and open it up Wow, this is fantastic. Thank you so much for your time this evening demelo It was thoroughly engaging and I think uh, it's like I said before, you know it's an interesting business that you and your partners have built and I think you you're definitely onto something there but definitely focusing on You know the forgotten individuals so to say, you know Because everybody looks at formalized business commercial business commercial farmers Mega Buddha as people would say so. Yeah, what about the small scale farmers? And I like the fact that you're focusing also on informal traders because informal traders Make up township economies as much as big established retail brands are in the townships Informal traders are running the show down there. Um, and so yeah, it will be interesting to see how you guys grow in leaps and bounds But thank you so much for for coming on to the podcast Thank you for having us man, and we'll definitely be happy to join you again Sometimes soon just to give you a bit of progress of how the journey is going. No, but we definitely looking forward Coming here. Thank you very much. And it was a it was a very beautiful conversation Thank you. It's a pleasure. That was demelo chiloana joining us. Um, he's a CEO of uh desert green Africa He does have partners in this business. They started in 2016 started farming a bit and then just realized that no man There's a bigger need that we could there's a bigger problem that we could solve by connecting small scale farmers with informal traders And um, he basically told us how his business worked. There's there's a tech solution That is enabling the the the trade between small scale farmers as well as informal traders And you heard both ends of the spectrum just want to do business, you know And uh, they really don't take care about the tech solution at the end of the day They want to product the small scale farmer wants a product to be sold The informal trader wants a product at the best price on their table. And if you're a small scale farmer, um, you know And that was listening to this conversation spinach and cabbage is not the only commodities You know, broaden your horizon broaden your knowledge about what else people buy especially from an informal trader Go to your next go to your local informal trader and ask her or him What is it that you buy and which commodities are fast-moving and as du mello said it's butternuts It's your tomatoes. It's your onions Those are just the simple crops that I could definitely say could get you going either then spinach or cabbage But if you miss this conversation go on to our youtube channel subscribe to the uh to the youtube private property youtube channel Go on to the playlist and search for the farming podcast. This is episode 114 This is where you'll find my comfort conversation with du mello shilwane and uh, I believe search for them on social media Uh, and um, yeah, if you want to hear more information about them And hopefully we could have them back onto the podcast next year to discuss their growth and how they've really grown Um over the past couple of seasons as well, but thank you so much for watching this evening we truly appreciate your time and um, yeah, as always keep the comments Keep uh subscribing keep watching out and listening to the farming podcast every tuesdays and thursdays at apm And I will see you next week. Take care Yes