 Thank you. I I'm already wired Good morning again everybody. I Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you all today. I'm going to talk about Work that has been done by C4 over the past six or so years especially Although there was a lot of work done before that on related topics But primarily based on work done Related to China's trade and investment in in Africa and it's and the force related effects of that of that Dynamic and I'm also going to refer back to work I did even before C4 as a doctoral student working on Chinese traded and in timber in the Peruvian Amazon So it's kind of a reflection back over Over a period a number of projects and and a number of years so Just as a as a general Comment before I start when you're looking doing research across different sectors Because we're talking about forestry and we're also talking about Land-based industries that affect forests So work across sectors work across different cultures in different countries with research teams with very diverse backgrounds It's One way to do the to do to do your research and to be consistent is to take a kind of a grounded Theoretical approach and try to ask similar questions the same questions across all of these cases But to allow for a lot of different methods to be used To test the hypotheses because there are major differences in in scale and Within different industries geographical scales social scales Companies company sizes, etc individual activities, so we look at all of these things using very flexible methodology, but Looking trying to ask the same questions and bringing them together through Once we see that there's support for certain hypotheses When we look at there there are major problems in definition when we talk about the Chinese the Chinese market When we talk about what in when we look at the international literature The press and you see the word Chinese trade, what does that mean? Who's doing Chinese trade? Are we talking about? Companies that are headquartered in China are we talking about companies that that are Headquartered where they are but are ethnically Chinese owned are those are if it's ethnically Chinese owned are the people From mainland China, or are they from elsewhere? So there are there are problems of definition. There's been much confusion in the international literature prior to research that that that Part that we did and partners are doing now and There are there's also Various units that you can discuss you can that you could use is the unit of forest Are we looking from forest to forest or forest management unit to forest management unit? Are we looking at the national market China's national market and how it links to resource? resource sectors overseas Are we talking about the behavior of corporations that are headquartered in China or not or or or or elsewhere? and and Then the Chinese market must is linked in many many different ways to the natural resources through through through through many non-Chinese channels of Market channels as well from extraction to to export to import into China so So these are this this gives us some idea of the very the diversity of of ways in which This question has been looked at and also the source of many Mistakes in in the Analyses that have been done or the reports that have come up often in media Mistaking the identity of of of people Mistaking the head, you know where a company comes from etc. I'm very very simple mistakes such as that So I'm going to talk about some of the generalizations that That we that we have found support for and they're conservative. We're going to it's a conservative set Because we're looking across many different cases many different sectors those that seem to be common Are our few in fact that differentiate The sort of the nature of the Chinese market and other markets in global resource extraction and in specifically mostly timber we're talking about but This this is also applicable to other resources So one thing that have that's happened in in So if we look at the so what we what we find in the environmental In terms of environmental outcomes One strongly supported Phenomenon with the growth in the Chinese market over the past few years has been the emergence of of new timber species in the market so Booms in in in species that formerly didn't see high demand internationally And this is a this is something that's that's happened in in a number of cases over over different countries In Peru. There was a boom in a species called shiwa waka or archa dough in in Africa, there's there's been a great boom in in demand for specialty species like various kinds of rosewoods and and Wenge etc. Now. This is a this is an important Factor in what sort of environmental impact The forest forest trade has and that is because although sometimes there have been arguments that increasing the number of species in the market can allow More efficient forest management that assumes that this is happening within very defined forest management units Whereas in less defined forest areas where management is not as clear in more open access areas which are common in in Amazonia in parts of Africa the The demand for very specific species Can lead to increased expansion into forest areas to look for those species Especially so when demand takes off for one species it often can drive further expansion into the forest And that's been that that that that was found in in a number of studies especially in in Amazonia Now that is not that it's not an effect that's unique to China That's something that's that's been seen many times in the past different With with different species going to the US market to the European market however What's different now is that it's happening that now China is the the big market for a new species So it's it's not a question of whether it's The first time it's a question of what's happening in the world now When it comes to Social social effects of forest-related trade We found in our fieldwork that there were many that and this is something that has been you know written about in the global media and the press a lot Has to do with employment conditions within Chinese corporations Operating in other countries and in this case in Sub-Saharan Africa. There have been cases there were cases from different sectors and Employment conditions we found that they are often perceived to be higher with Potentially somewhat some slightly lower pay and slightly more work, but this also Was is likely very this perception is is likely very much influenced as well by cult cultural perception and and It's it's very different from place to place and from case to case nonetheless, it's very important because of social the social vulnerability of The workforce in developing countries so And and across extractive industries if you don't if you if you take China out of the equation And you look at extractive industries in in Africa in Democratic Republic of Congo in Zambia in in you know across there have been many cases where Global or international companies from of European Or North American background have been implicated in cases in problems related to The relations with workers and and the treatment of workers by companies So so this is this this particular case is is Definitely something that needs more attention There is probably a lot there from case to case but not necessarily Something that can be generalized when it comes to economic benefits of the Chinese market and At the current time with the with the great increase in demand from China and the many linkages Among different types of companies different sizes of companies and different different sources different different production areas, etc we found that the that currently Chinese buyers are tending to move much higher up the supply chain towards the resource that there's a much greater presence at the current moment in in especially in timber production areas in areas where There there are timbers of interest to the Chinese market so this is something that I think that can be generalized and that is that that the the prevalence of of Buyers from mainland China versus buyers from other countries Is currently higher? Closer to the resource base and that and that there's a lot more interaction between those buyers and Small-scale producers often working in the informal sector Now that comes with that comes with different effects including potential benefits of distribution of income from the sector to a more diverse and smaller scale set of actors it also comes with issues of Potential governance problems locally it comes with with Connections to Well informal sectors which are interpreted as illegal even if they in many cases they might be based in customary systems of resource tenure and access We've we've seen a number of cases of especially large-scale companies Large-scale Chinese companies who are often state-owned companies Showing efforts to comply to higher social and environmental standards So over time You can see the discourse on corporate social responsibility being taken up and replicated in the Certainly in the the the the public Presentation of of large Chinese multinational companies and then Looking at it on the ground It's especially in one case related to rubber in in Cameroon. We found that in a in in a In Cameroon the rubber sector Was was largely national Prior to The 80s and then it was privatized and it was initially Bought by or a set of concessions was initially bought by a company from Singapore and then that company was was Purchased by a Chinese corporation Very recently in the late 2000s and and you can see this that the corporate social responsibility Terminology being used and also in terms of actions and Stakeholder Engagement, etc. You can see that that under the new ownership. There is a new incorporation of those of higher standards now That is a that that's a that's a partly potentially a sign of An evolution in the in in the Chinese corporate in Chinese corporate culture It certainly is it's also a Sign of when this is happening when this when this corporate Takeover is happening. It's happening at a time when CSR overall is becoming more of more adult, you know generalized in in in corporate culture now Finally just a mention on the the The the myth of or the myth that sort of the Perceptions of Chinese involvement in what's called large-scale land acquisition or land grabs In the project that that that that we did in on China and Africa over a period of a few years We we encountered many leads to What were presented as large-scale land acquisitions and generally found that most of them hadn't happened that they were they Were that they were something that they they started they were grounded in some Some some some interaction maybe a smaller contract for a smaller piece of land a plan to do to implement a much larger project and then In several cases those those projects sort of disappeared over time And one of the reasons is that when it came down to actually identifying the lands that would be used for those projects that the governments involved Notably in this happened in Cameroon it happened in DRC That they couldn't identify the the the the lands and they couldn't they couldn't Sort of untangle the tenure issues And and allocate those lands eventually to the companies that that were negotiating to Start big oil palm projects or rice projects or or or others so Just Just to sum up very quickly It's It's clear that there's been a huge amount of new activity on the chart part of the the Chinese government and Institutions that are working on forestry in China and on an on environment environmental issues to To support the development of guidelines for for corporate activity overseas in timber as well as extractive other extractive industries and agricultural industries rubber oil palm and there's been a there there have been increasingly attempts and Implementation or establishment of bilateral agreements between China and and and and producing countries And We and and we see that that there are efforts of companies to to adapt and to We saw there was a boom in a chain of custody certification timber certification in China when In you know starting about six or seven years ago and it and it took off and it increased very quickly And as I mentioned these we see the the implementation the integration of corporate social responsibility Standards, but problems of global resource extraction are not are not easily addressed There in in in many countries There are long histories of conflict over over land and resources and the the The instruments that have been designed and implemented to address those problems Many times haven't worked in the past Or haven't worked fully so when when when we look at these various instruments Including those that are now being developed. I think that There are there are a few different things that need to be done and one is that it needs to be We need to look very closely at how much of a given market how much of the market did these instruments cover? and So how much of the how much does a guideline how much do guidelines from the government to companies operating overseas cover? How many companies do they reach in reality? and And then we have to look at the capacity of the institutions to actually use them so if it's a question of of a timber legality verification system where What is the capacity of the of the customs authority to? To implement it. What what do they what do they need to see how or how how would they know? So a real analysis of those capacities and at different levels of the value chain is needed and then finally It really is it's very important For long-term field-based research to be to be done in order to to to understand the effects at the smaller scales and and over time That that that can't that that can't be Overstressed and that's something that's that's been that's actually been to date has has there has not been enough yet Done to really understand Not only the the the issues on the ground, but also how how the efforts to address them Will are working in terms of institutional capacity to use the instruments and also potential unexpected outcomes of those instruments such as effects on livelihoods of local people who might be dependent on resources or or increases in in criminality because of Exclusion of certain users or other potential unexpected outcomes, so I leave it. I leave it there and Thank you very much, please A few minutes over, but I admire your courage and even trying to cover this enormous area in in such a short Presentation now we have time for a few questions and I'd certainly like to encourage also our visitors to pose any questions There any questions Yeah, I have a question. Thanks for your presentations if I remember correctly about 10 years ago There are so many investors from Indonesia doing investment in in China on this What a pop and paper Material for you know for a plantations on Akasi, I think and eucalyptus So the how that has been going now. I mean how they've been developed in China. Are they you know? What was what's happening with their investment? Well, this is like big group in Indonesia like APP and other groups Yeah, well, I'm sure others would be better place to to answer that when I actually haven't done research on that specifically yet I did I did spend some time in in in the area where in the general area where a lot of the investment in that type of forest plantation has happened in in in Southwest China in Guangxi Province and and That that area has been there have been some some questions about Community land rights and not just in relation to Indonesian companies, but also in relation to At least one European company over over over time So there have been some some some questions about how land was transferred from the sort of the collective to and communities to to to and transfer, you know rights transferred for a certain amount of time to corporations and and There's also there in terms of the nature of that particular type of forestry a Lot of attention needs to be paid to especially the the effects of the species chosen and The landscape in which species are being planted in long-term Soil fertility because you see a lot of you see in in certain certain parts where that certain kind of Like eucalyptus is planted in the midst of sugar cane Plantations and and and it hasn't it's it's probably not the best configuration So the configuration of of of tree plots and the selection of species Could probably be improved Thank you Mika But I would also encourage our colleagues from the Chinese Academy of Forestry to say something about that Louie Do you see part of this what you call corporate social Responsibility or nature responsibility in the case of China. Do you think the Chinese companies? Can help to do this Investment to transition from extractive to productive resources I'm not talking about plantations, but many ways of producing resources and going beyond all of these These these extremes not conservation or extraction in the middle. You have many ways of Producing resources even the old one and what is the science base for that transition? I I think that's an area a huge area for for research including research by by by by Chinese forestry institutions In in all In in there there There are still huge gaps in terms of in terms of knowledge of how to produce Species from from from natural forest areas a production in in in Other than plantation forestry There there aren't very many species that are in Tropical forests that are very well understood with a regeneration ecology the patterns of Sort of gap dynamics, etc. That favor that favor production over simple extraction. So I think that Especially when a new species or a new set of species becomes Sort of it sees this huge surge in demand that would be a time to say we need to understand Exactly the the ecology of these news of these new species in the market And that that that doesn't that has hasn't happened very much. It's happened in a in a couple of very Limited cases a lot of work was done on regeneration of ecology of Mahogany, Swedenia But There haven't you know most species have been neglected This I looked at this This is a promise that I will not have the opportunity to find out I want to ask before I record this before I record this before I Say a few words first of all we feel very honored to visit safer I just understood that this safer also has a Chinese group Is standing in this international perspective to study the problem of China Then we also have a We want to from another perspective we are developing From another perspective is standing in China's perspective how to look at The world's spirit so this Then these two perspectives are also today we have this by By vonz這個這個咱們 see for a一個一個我一個新的發現那麼我後面要提問的 just not I read the agenda is found I found that There's no opportunity for me to share my opinions so I wanted to take advantage of some minutes before I post the questions and I first I'm very glad to visit the safer and just now I found that the CIFR has a team specifically interested in China to study the trade between China and other countries. And it is very good for you to study China, the issue of China from your perspective. But I think that we also wanted to see the relationship of China and other countries from another angle. And we are more concerned about the global forestry from the perspective of China. So I think it's very interesting to discuss the two angles, two perspectives to look at the same issue. China is also very important. On the one hand, we need to develop the supply chain and make it as transparent as possible. This is an idea. At the same time, the market's development wants the supply chain to be more and more concentrated. On the other hand, the government needs the supply chain to be more and more transparent. On the other hand, the market also wants the market to be more and more concentrated. This is your point of view. How to balance such a relationship to make it more satisfying the demand for illegal trade? I have a question. The supply chain has been machined a lot of time. I think it's very important. As a result of combating illegal logging, we want to achieve transparency of the supply chain, which is very often emphasized by different parties. But as the whole industry develops, it seems that the supply chain becomes more and more complex. Lots of things will be concentrated for the supply chain. That means that the very detailed division of labor that makes the supply chain is very complex. On the one hand, we want to... The supply chain can be checkable and traceable. On the other hand, we want the more concentrated market for the supply chain. I want to ask how to balance the two sides to achieve the transparency of the supply chain as well as to foster the developed market for the whole industry. Well, first of all, it's an honor to have the head of the China Forest Products Trade and Development Center visit us at C4. I'd like to welcome you, especially Professor Chen Xiaojie. And thank you for your comment and question. On the first comment, I agree with you completely. Nothing could be more important than developing and building a Chinese perspective on global forestry. And I think that that's a very important role of the researchers that are visiting us here today. I would also, in answer to your question, you partly answered the question in the question by saying that as you explore further and further, it becomes that the governance and the management of supply chains becomes more and more complicated. The more you look into, the more you find. And that's partly why I said that I think it's very important to try to assess the capacity, the institutional capacity of government, especially government regulators in producing countries and in importing countries at different areas in those chains because simply prescribing a solution without understanding if the capacity exists to implement it won't work in many cases. So any instrument probably only addresses a piece of it. And if you want to address the whole thing, you have to keep looking at different pieces. It's inevitable that you have to look at different pieces over time. When it comes to how to achieve more transparency and also allow for development, I think that also there are the process of examining value chains more closely also involves understanding benefit flows. And then we need to ask when we talk about development for whom, whose development are we talking about? So there really needs to be attention. And the impetus for this kind of inquiry can come from many different places. Definitely a lot of the interests related to the industry belong in producer countries. And so we need to ask what's the state of research? What's the state of policy? And how does that serve the interests of people who depend on forest resources for their livelihood in producer countries? In processing countries and consumer countries, the same questions are applicable. And then putting those things together is no simple thing. So these new efforts to develop bilateral instruments that involve also, some of them also involve continuing dialogue and negotiation. Those processes are very important. So lots of progress has been made and hopefully more is coming. Thank you very much. I don't see any other very pressing questions. So since we've gone a bit over time already, I would like to thank very much all of you. First of all, I'd like to thank Louis. Secondly, I'd like to thank all of you for coming and all of you for participating. And a special thank you to our visitors from Beijing. And I would like to also encourage you when you go back to wherever you go back to, please remember that both this event and all of our science attend are actually on the C4 website since we have recorded them all. So please continue with sort of seeing what we are talking about here at C4. And it's been a pleasure and an honor to have you all here. Thank you all very, very much.