 We brought in an issue of the budget issue that we alliance party. Your main aim is to deal with the wage being that is quite escalating, it's quite a skyrocketing thing right now. Some of the ways that you do think they are really possible? Yes, they are possible. Everything can be negotiated. Recurrent expenditure. We have seen cases of MPs. We don't even know each other. And we have seen other countries even bigger than Kenya, they have less representatives in the parliament. So that is one way of reducing the wage being and expenditure. Actually the most effective. We have seen also the women rep positions and we need to get rid of those positions because we don't feel they are necessary. Yes, I am a Guinness Fungusam Ziko. The third alliance proposals, I told you they are too ambitious. Every country that is developing the wage bill has to go up all the time because you need new employees, you need people to take the country further. You cannot keep on reducing as if you want to stagnate. You cannot stagnate. Number two, you cannot scrap the women rep positions in this country. The voters in this country are women, the majority are women. And the women in this country are working for the women groups in a better way than before. So to me, devolutions should not be touched. And the way they are touching, the way they are talking of reducing the members of parliament, that one is unknown and it will never be in this country. Before we come to you, he has just mentioned something about overrepresentation. Do you think we as citizens we are overrepresented? You are not overrepresented. If in my constituency, my constituency population is 140 people, one person. One person representing 140 people, 140,000 people. I am not able even to know their names, I am not able even to meet their needs. As a member of parliament and I am supposed to do that. So it is actually, we are supposed to, for example, when you take the policemen, the policemen should be decreased, should be 10 people per police person. But now how many people per policeman? Maybe 400 people. 400, even 4,000, one policeman. And then you say the wage bill is going up. It is not going up, this country is developing. And for any country to develop, because it is not stagnant, the wage bill has to go up. Because we need... You know, when you mention about development, I am going to ask something. Machakos is developing us, we can't say that. How about other counties that we have been hearing of? There is some sort of stagnation. Let me tell you. Alida is the driver of every count. The governor vision just is the one that is supposed to drive that count. If some governors came there for the sake of making some little income, then they have no interest for the people to develop the count. But if you went there with a vision and a mission to develop your people and empower your people, then you will do it. But you find them people have gone some other missions. Okay? Yes. Now that we are in Punguza, let me say, are we there right? Yes, we can just go ahead. You see, something when the means is not okay, the end is not justified. Let me begin by that. I would like to acknowledge the fact that the leader of Thaduia lands tried as much as possible to get the signatures which is in question of this vehicle. Let me begin from there. The amendment of a constitution through a popular initiative, that is chapter 16, article 257, elaborates on the chapters how this amendment should be done. I agree that there was a bill, the amendment bill 2019 for Punguza Bezigo, which did not begin by a question. And he knows very well, it didn't begin by a question. It went straight to a bill, contravention of the constitution. Secondly, there are things that I would like to say because you know, Kenyans, we are not reading, we are not finding out what is going on. Secondly, you see, the collection of signatures, 1.2, that is okay. Thaduia lands met the threshold. That is very okay. But then the constitution is very clear on something. That in between, the process that the Thaduia lands hands the signature and the certificate to IBC, between that process and by the time Chepukati sends the bill to 47 counties, something important needs to have happened, verification of signatures. Now, while that took place at Kenya Institute of Curriculum Development Studies, the constitution is very clear and the elections act is very clear on what should have been done. In that, the IBC through a reciproatory order should ask that all those who signed the signatures through Agazeth notice and through popularizing that through any local days, people should come and confirm that indeed, I Daniel from Aleguusonga or Uriri, this is my signature and I give it authority to be used for amendment of the constitution. Did that happen? Before you respond to that, before you respond, I want us to match these two issues together. It's important for us because I'm very passionate about this program because for us Kenyans have been in the loop of trying to whip emotions of Kenyans. Now secondly, that was not that either. Before you go on, I want us to match the issue of the budgetary allocation and of course the Pungusamizigo bill because the budgetary is still a stalemate and yesterday the governor of Kaka Mega cannot match both. I want us to look at it this way because the budgetary is still an issue. They are reducing the wage bill. That's what their main aim is. They want to reduce the wage bill. We still want to look at another issue that still stands there. So you said something that was really important. You want him to respond. Yes. I was coming to this budget. Yes. Now he would actually respond. While that didn't happen, an illog participated in the verification and they gave a statement. They gave a very authentic statement. They say that first of all, they are not faulting the third way alliance but the problem is with the IBC because IBC faulted the process of constitutional amendment. IBC went ahead and took the signatures to 47 county assemblies minus the verification that should have been published in the dailies and in the website. IBC only published those signatures on the website. Now, Wanjiku in Masinga in Muranga do not have an access to the website of IBC. What tells me that he gave an authority for his signatures to be used for an amendment. Secondly, this bill, there are two things that can happen to this bill. There will be no public participation carried out by IBC as required in the elections and the amendment act. As we speak, this bill, it is at the mercy of the county assemblies. If Wanjiku, you either accept it the way it is or reject it the way it is, minus public participation. So, Kenyans do not have a direct input. So, what you are saying, they are not giving the citizens the right to give up their signatures. Because the assumption is, by the point that we are collecting signatures, we were educating the citizens that could be the assumption. But let me tell you, you were here in 2010, when years in green and whatever, IBC took, by then it was called, I don't know what it was called, it took an opportunity to educate Kenyans. Unachagwa chungwa, amunachagwa banana. That was the point that public participation, education. Even in this constitution, chungwa yes or no. But in this one, it's either the mercy of county assemblies. If the county assemblies are going to pass, the way I look it is, it is going to be passed, it seems there is more enthusiasm that this bill is going to pass. Or Kenya will not have an input except through the mercy of the county assembly. Lastly, if the bill is returned to the parliament, and now members of parliament, one of represented here, do you know that the law is very silent? That should you majority not pass that bill? What happens to it? Proceeds. I want to give an opportunity to respond, but before I do that, you seem to be agreeing with that. Yes, I am agreeing with that. Because the verification must have been done. Because if I put my signature myself, and you don't go to the registration of persons, even to verify whether that is my signature, you should have even put the signature with your thumb, and verify properly in the right way. So, the way the third alliance has come, they are taking people unaware, and the IBC is the one to blame. Because they are the ones who are saying the signatures are right. How did they verify? And no public participation, as he says, nobody was called to come and say this is my signature, and I agree to this. So, Punguza Musiko is something that is being forced in the frauds of Kenyans, and it is not right just. Is that so? Do you think you are forcing this into the eyes of Kenyans? No, I don't think we are forcing because these are opinions which came from the people. We went and approached the people all over the country, and asked them for ideas. According to the issue the country is facing, we asked them how do you feel and what should we do about it. We took lots, then we came back to the office and started drafting this bill. And another thing is we went to IBC, which other referendums have failed to do. We asked them what is the procedure that we need to do for us to achieve these referendums. And they told us the steps to take, and that's what we followed. The verification exercise, they said that they have every voter registered in their database. So, they didn't need to call or verify from anyone because they have all the information with them. That is why the process is credible if you ask me. According to what he alleged, let me use the one alleged. He said very clearly that the signatures still have an issue. They have been confirmed by IBC, but they are in question. How can you respond to that? If anyone has an issue with the signatures, we can go ahead and try to see if they are legit or not. I know for sure they are legit, so that is not an issue that scares us. Now my friend, this is nowhere as a country. We still have a problem with IBC as we speak, especially on the protection of the data that is here. When you go vote, one of the things you do is confirm whether your signature is within the data. In any election process, you cannot tell me that I am assuming that since you are a voter, this will be the correct signature. Who tells you that I might have changed it? Yes. How are you sure that this is my signature that still exists? So, first of all, I am saying that for third way, probably we would little fault, but the problem like Mwashimiwa has said, IBC should be questioned. And as you speak, probably somebody will run to court and question how then my signature be validated. Now coming to proposals, ridiculous. You understand? Direct proportional. If for example you are saying that I elect two people, that the county, I don't know whether the county becomes the basis of something, but now you elect two people to meet the gender. Nairobi has a population of around 4 million. Languha has a population of about 250. Now these two people are going to represent an equal measure of people. So these are using the principles of proportional representation. The other thing that I would also like for, for us to have come up with a constitution for gender balance, there is a procedure. You do not have a radical proposal to scrap the position of women representative. To scrap the position of national assembly. To scrap the position of nominated. There is an issue about trying to meet inclusion. And inclusion. The other thing is what informed the idea of a single term president. I mean for seven years. That is why I am saying this is an initiative that needs to be restored. And I am appealing to the county assemblies. I am really appealing to the county assemblies and the national assembly. Should this thing be while or because it is political. Right now as we speak the members of county assembly you hear very well. This is appealing to them because they were denied the world development fund and it was taken through the national government CDF fund. So whenever you try to put something to the national assembly, the county assembly and call it the world development fund, they would vote it. What do you expect? That is what I am saying. And as I conclude, Dr. Akura Akut was one of the members of committee of experts in this new constitution. What has changed? Right now there is a need for him to come and amend some sections of the constitution. Let me respond. Yes. On the seven year term president. We felt that after the second term we find that the president after the first term we find that the last years of the first term the presidency is focused on campaigns on the elections. Not necessarily services. So we felt that if you have one term presidency it gives the president enough time to focus his attention on the service delivery. Then it reduces the issue of door die. The door die on campaigns on the elections. We felt that seven years is enough time for Kenyans to see if they need to change the president or not. Don't you think you are removing the rights from the citizens to elect the presidents? Don't you think that you are depriving them the rights term? No, not really. Because it depends on the situation in the country. All right. I know that we can comment when we talk about that but I want us to shift gears for now and we talk about the treasury. Henry wrote it that the CS of treasury was arrested alongside his peers amongst 16 others and on Tuesday they were reined in court and on Wednesday the president called upon lay boy CS Ukur Yatani and appointed him to be the acting CS treasury. This is in the fight of cause of corruption. What do you think will Ukur Yatani perform? I think, first of all, I am one of the Kenyans who believe that once the president has a replacement there is a due checking. He might have checked you there to see that he is suitable to occupy that position. What I am against however is the fact that right now it becomes a point to be discussed in political rally. Yes. For the first time we have had somebody from Nomadiik and all these things and Ada Anduali is running Helder Skelter and the rest. Well, it is important for matters of inclusion but then I think whatever you begin to politicize these appointments and begin to make it look like the other communities who are considered these and that others are not considered, I think is right. Right now treasury is a very key portfolio in the docket in this country and you could have realized that in between when rotiq was taken to court and by the time the president actually replaced Ukur Yatani, the dollar had actually the Kenyan shilling drastically dropped against the dollar and there was uncertainty in the stock exchange. So actually it showed you that the investors were now becoming wary for the fact that there was a gap that is there but immediately that was done I think you've actually seen the dollar actually beginning to, you know, Kenyan shilling sustainably gaining towards the dollar. So for me it's quite important. Now the task that is here is simple. Could you check if mis, because it's become a scandal as in this country. Is there another way Ukur Yatani will begin to audit on how for example the money transfers are being done and secondly the projects are already stalled. One of the most important thing I would even wish that Ukur Yatani would give address or just talk to the nation on how we would want to recover, how we would want to make the treasury again be seen as the most important portfolio in terms of driving the agenda and aligning any financial issue with the big four agenda. This is the most important thing for the president right now, the big four agenda, the fight against corruption and inclusion. Those are the three things the president either became or go down the drain in the legacy. Do you think Ukur Yatani will manage to change the image of the treasury? One thing you should know that is the treasury is the drive of this country and the president could not leave it for any longer because things had come to a standstill and the CSU has been appointed to act acting does not mean you are there permanently he is holding two dockets so he is acting as the president searches for a suitable replacement of Rutech and if he finds that the CSU Yatani is able to perform why not? Then he will be able to appoint some body on the labor docket and then he will remain but one thing is for Sata he cannot change things just overnight but the best thing is that the people that have been working behind the scenes majority of them are there the PS who was appointed was the PS planning so he is the one who was planning the whole thing and he gives to Rutech so he is now the PS4 treasury and the other people you see that that is a docket with the brains with people with the brains so nothing has changed so far the only thing is that they have to sit down and strike a balance or now to run the country so that things will not stand still so to me it is a stopover for him and we cannot write him off he is an economist as people say Right, with what Mujumawa said the challenge that could be there is that the persons who are already in the docket other than the lead the head that is the CS and his peers do you think they can hinder the work of Okuri Atani as the acting CS? Yes, they can hinder because they have to work together so Okuri Atani I agree with Dan he should release a press statement or a press conference to explain to Kenans his plans and how he is going to reform the treasury sector so that we can be able to hold him to account after a certain period Right now I can't dismiss him so we just have to give him enough time and we see the actions that he will be taking I want what's done Do you think the issue of stepping aside will help in fighting corruption? I mean, you could have asked when it's possible in this country Is it possible again? You see most of the times you've had statements that I would rather die than step aside even step aside so, well we actually beginning to have a sense in which let's you see the public ethics act actually envisage the point where all state offices and public offices should be accounted when accountability means that when you are mentioned I'm not saying that resignation is quite an elaborate process but for the purposes of your dignity and the purposes of transparency and accountability just step aside this is what is happening why would I give space for investigation because I am innocent but as you speak it's not really possible in Kenya and ever since I've had people from communion time from anybody who is saying for me I would even rather die than even just step aside for this position but if it's something that we can incalculate then it teaches young people the importance of responsibility of the public office but the fact that when you are implicated is not necessarily means you committed a crime it means that people are just suspecting so what you do give enough space and by the way you never know that wherever you step aside investigation will be done you come back very strong and very respected and dignified then you hang up there and then you find in a corrupt cases then you find time struggling to explain yourself so I think it's something that we should think about to me stepping aside is now being pronounced the court has said it is unconstitutional to stay there while you are being investigated so they have to step aside so that they are investigated if you have found you are clean then come back if you have found guilt then you go to jail that is the thing so they have to step aside there is no two ways the law will have to be enforced and especially the people that are leading the investigation the prosecutions will make sure that it is it is followed to the letter how possible is it for one to come back it is possible if you have found its allegations if there are allegations the rule of law will apply so if you have found not guilt you will come back for example the people that stepped aside in the procurement majority of them came down 80% came back the others went home yes I am fortunate to be honorable yes because of conflict of interest it is more prudent for them to step aside because once they are in office they have power to implement the investigation and intimidate the process so the best thing for them is to step aside and I think there is that law because of time I think we need to call it a wrap I want to give you a parting shot my parting shot is it is a revenue revenue we will just mention briefly on it as the parting shot my parting shot is quite simple you know as a country we are in a quagmire right now and one of the things we need to strongly advise the cities of republic of Kenya is to put a critical eye into any proposals that are made that benefits them we are having two proposals that are running right now the building bridges initiative which is questionable Punguza Musigo which is more questionable and another one where religious leaders I don't know there was another proposal I think for us as a country it's quite important for citizens to be rather proactive and as this matters openly so that they would rather find a solution than being confused by the political class but then the other question is the ethics and corruption commission and the act I think it is important for right now before you are compelled to step aside it's important to follow the dignity of the office that you hold rather than the constitution of the laws compelling you to step aside I wanted to briefly mention about the budgetary as a parting shot about the budget the wisdom that divided the budget of the counties and the national government and they gave the governors 316 billion to me it should prevail that should stand because the president has said there is no money anywhere else and the people are not even paying their taxes people have been evading taxes so the country has not been able to have enough wealth for the money to be increased as the governor's word and also something I must mention in the account of the account governments there is still 51 billion which was unutilized for the last financial year that means they are unable to consume if they are given more so let them use what they have alright your parting shot my parting can I respond to him a bit on the BBI he wrote it out also let me just mention one of the things the BBI how they have been doing in their process it's already questionable because they are going to boardrooms and they are picking representative like a youth representative to speak on the youth but we went to the people one by one so we can see which one is more questionable from them they haven't verified their signatures these people you went to