 This is the build OGM call for Tuesday, January 18th, 2022. I sent out a poll about using my brain, which is not the topic I'd like to focus on for this call, but I thought I'd share the responses so far for people who have replied. It's interesting. I tried, so one of the comments back on how to improve the poll was, I don't really like forced choice, single choice radio buttons. And I did that pretty intentionally. I'm not a professional survey designer at all, but I was trying to, I tried to make these in a, I tried to make those single choice answers in a gradient. And I just kind of wanted to figure out where people are because I have a funny feeling that it's either bimodal or something. So I added an apology at the top to the intro to sorry for the forced choices, but I'm trying to like figure out where you land. So this one is like mostly I've grown accustomed to his presence and then nobody so far who actually goes and uses it individually. And then this one's split between these two middle ones. Interesting, the curriculum connections, a useful map. This is interesting. How do I find these thoughts again? It's sort of the thing that people think a bunch. And then one answer was not again, this is distracting. So there's a little bit of information there. I think that'll be more interesting as a compounds. I don't know that many people that use jerryisbrain.com and maybe in this crowd, not so many, but one person added an other choice, functional, but not useful if I cannot carry my own brain or make my own notes. And so I didn't add, maybe I should have added that to this question, but I did add it down further. You'll see there's a new question that I added because of one person's really good feedback. The best way to access Jerry's brain is with Jerry as a guide, screen shared by myself, starting from a direct link and by myself through jerryisbrain.com. So that's breaking sort of evenly around that. The value is, the winners here are exploring context and connections and hearing stories with Jerry's brain as a visual aid. And then this is the new question. And I think somebody's just answering, oh, we're at six now, two people just answered the poll. Wow, okay, as we were sitting here because I just, like two minutes before this call, I sent it to the full OGM less. So we're gonna see some live responses come in, which is, I like Google Forms. So here we have more one-on-one time with Jerry's screen sharing a Q&A group call, reviewing tips and tricks, more explainer videos, a way to provide feedback on how to organize, a way to provide suggested additions to the brain, a way to add personal, and this is the one I added because of the other new answer. Working towards interoperability with other platforms and notifications on significant updates. And then this is, here's the feedback that caused me to add that question. And then here's the feedback about not liking radio buttons to enforce one choice. And if you feel strongly that I should delete the radio buttons and make those multiple guess, I mean, multiple check, I'm happy to change it, but I think in survey design, too many, if everybody answers all over the place, you don't really get very much information. So I'm trying to sort of narrow that. And then here's who's answered so far. So Todd Hoskins, this is Wendy McClain. This is some nice person named Stacy, et cetera, et cetera. So there we go. And let's go to the top to see what the new answers are. So here we have one answer. I seek it out myself to look things up. Come in. So this one's still split on only two answers. Cool. Well, this should be more interesting as the day goes on. And I'll stop the screen share. Thoughts, questions? And Mark, are you hearing us properly now? Awesome. Nothing like kicking the machine. Yes, basically dropping it on the floor and see what happens. Is that what they call it a reboot? Yes, I've put my boots on and gave it a kick. Let's see, the interesting, so I didn't hear the introduction and criteria and purpose, but the term that I did see that hit me was I have a different habit space. And that's still rolling around in my head. But I would like to know, I guess, you know, why? Why the survey? Why the, so at the Internet Archive, we are trying to figure out what the core experience is and basically, you know, be the UX designers. The user experience designers were supposed to be, although really we're just a bunch of programmers. Do you have anybody who's UX specialized on the team? There is. And certainly, you know, I have an interest, and I think everybody has an interest, but really, I think we need a deeper focus on what is the kind of experience that people are looking for, maybe that people need and maybe that we can steer them to that they don't know they need. And it's very difficult. It's a very difficult question. And I'm wondering, you know, how that type of question is being asked and answered by the survey? Perhaps. I think there's, so you're down a good path, Mark, but it seems like a path, it seems like a path that's not obviously, obviously the one that I, maybe there's other paths to have gone down before that even. So it's a good exploration. That's what you do when you're talking about a utility site or something like that, a site that has utility that people need and want and et cetera, et cetera. I think there's a preceding question. What is this thing Jerry's bringing to the world? What is it to Jerry? What is, you know, can Jerry make it more useful to more people? Is that used as a reference material? Is it as an interactive thing? Is it a community? Is it, you know, how does it overlap and not overlap with existing offerings? Let me just put a couple of things in to see and then I'll go to you. Mark, why is there actually a great question and Pete is getting right at it? I'm reminded of the day that Lotus announced Lotus Notes and that Notes came into the world and nobody had a fricking clue what to do with it, how it worked, what to do. IBM and Lotus had a really hard time explaining it until they didn't and until everybody was like on Lotus Notes and then IBM was on Lotus Notes way too long and missed like internet mail and all that kind of stuff. But, but Notes had this mystery like, what's this group where a thing and it's kinda itchy and uncomfortable and so forth. And so I'm trying to kind of explore the brain space in that spirit and with that goal kind of just figuring out like where's the value, what is it? Partly then to explain for a picture's brain like where the value is, like to find language to say, hey, this is what you could get and what's going on here. So there's a practical piece for me which is I wanna stand up picture's brain right now and start like earning a living, sharing my brain out for people who've got interesting questions, right? But then Mark, you're also reminding me of what you brought into the conversation when I first presented this poll I think for your brain, which was, hey, for you and me, the use of these tools has changed our lives. And also if we managed to create some kind of shared hive mind, that's going to be a different experience. And I don't think I'm getting, I'm hinting towards some of those things when I say a taste of the future collective mind or something like that in one of the radio buttons or one of the answers. But really I don't know how to pop open that conversation or that question. And I think it's important. So I think I'm missing that entirely. And then I think it was Jack Park who said, these were all very brain-centered questions. And I added an apology at the top that says now, sorry, I'm trying to focus here on the brain use. There's a bunch of other really interesting questions to pursue about other tools and so on and so forth. So I'm trying to actually be pretty focused about this thing. And now back to Stacey and then to Mark. Yeah, I just wanted to say real quick that what I see when I look at all those answers is overall a desire to become more interactive with the brain, whether they can add something or some sort of input mechanism. And the question I just added has a lot of what you just said, Stacey. And I was trying to think within the constraints of the brain and basically asking, hey, I'd like to be able to take my own notes and add them. It's like, not a feature of the brain. And so I was kind of limiting my own questions, I think maybe too much, but my goal is here not to present the brain with a list of feature requests, which I think will be hopeless, although this could turn into OGM platform design criteria, which is awesome, except we don't have an OGM platform design team. So far we're pretty haphazard about that. Mark, did you want to come back in about any of the stuff I brought up? Oh, sure. And one thing I wanted to add in briefly, I wrote in the chat Catacombs Tours, there might be some silly strange uses for the archive that get more usage and then equate people with the tools and then do whatever. Like people go to Notre Dame, well, when they reopen it again, I guess, but other churches, and they go crawl under and watch the skulls and everything else. And for me, the Internet archive is like a tell and the people who manage it are sort of archeologists of information and history and data and sort of docent tours of the archive through whatever area you wanted or even having a coterie of docents who you love and who get tiny stipends for doing so or something would be fantastic, would be super interesting. And I think might increase awareness usage and notoriety because if you actually said this is like a Catacombs, like making it a little bit strange makes it attractive and interesting. I love that. And I agree and people have brought that up before about the archive. And you can imagine I have the same, or similar, if not the same problem with the software that I've written. I brought it to VCs and they go, what's the benefit? And well, I guess it improves or deepens the quality of inner life. Okay, how do I sell that? And well, certainly these kinds of experiences are valuable but it's not the sale it's the experience and in terms of a larger brain participation, but certainly the way I put it is I have a solution and I have no idea what the problem is. And yeah, boy, I certainly don't want to discourage any kind of exploration in terms of how to articulate or even improve an explanation. I just know that in my case, I'm the only user and I need to get five users. And once I get five users, I'll get seven users and go on from there. But software is something that I'm happy to put off in lieu of actually using it and reading things and typing things in. And yeah, it's just a habit, a different habit. Then I met with Kevin, I forget Kevin's name. I forget Kevin's name. Jones? Yes, Kevin Jones. And he goes, it doesn't sound like your goal is shipping. I thought that was in a stewed comment. Yeah, it's in a stewed comment, Kevin. And he was showing me his network diagram where everybody's connected with circles and lines. So it was a Ziggy map or... Something like that. Yeah, I think it was a Ziggy map. Yeah. But I need to find the survey as I haven't seen it yet. I just sent it to the OGM, the Broad OGM list. And I also sent it, I put it on the, I think the Build The Free Jury's Brain List channel on Mattermost. And then I sent it to a bunch of people, I think including you, Mark, last night over email. Ah, okay. So you might see two different versions from me in your email. So right, just woke up and have a big day at work today. So I'll eventually get to it. And yeah, I'm trying to both be empathic, empathize. And really go, aha, well, what is it that Jerry wants to happen? And I'm sure, it's been said before in many ways, but to try and come up with an understanding of that and to try and come up with an understanding of that in order to ship. And certainly, I've got tons of coding to do. And after thinking about this for 30 years, tons of ideas that haven't really been articulated in a public space. It's very interesting to me that I'm taking a group, a class right now restarting with the lyceum.institute group, a group of Thomas Catholic philosophers who basically want to improve the world by philosophy. And I'm taking a semiotics of culture course. And there is a Estonian Soviet philosopher, semiotician named Yuri Lottman, who has the notion of semiosphere, which is like the new sphere, but also kind of the collection of all cultural. It's like the global mind, it's like extended mind. But when I went to the Wikipedia for semiosphere, it was the craziest Wikipedia page I've ever seen. I highly suggest it. It's out there, it has pathophysics, it has everything but vampires. The Wikipedia page for which thing? Semiosphere. Semiosphere, cool. I'll put it up. Thanks. The lyceum institute is the link I just shared in the chat? Um, yes. It's a very interesting group. I wish they had more people, more people, but as a former Catholic, it's a lot of fun to encounter, you know, what is the umvelt of angels being discussed? But they're also serious semioticians. So it's a great course. Love that. Excuse me. Anyone else with thoughts on this question? Otherwise, I'd love to shift to a different topic. I'm assuming the question is sort of coming off of your nail and the brain and I'm gathering Mark's thoughts about shipping, you know, really. And the one thing I was just going to say is I was struck in doing the poll. I did it, you know, just as we were getting started. That there really are two separate issues in there is like how can Jerry's brain best benefit you, the poll taker, and us in general? And then what can I do with my brain and my, you know, as a resource to benefit me? And it was a little, it was a little, I felt a little, in answering the questions, I felt a little cold to you because I was addressing the first rather than the second and, you know, I kind of almost felt like I'd like to take it again, you know, for your sake. Because that's always an interesting thing. And I put a link in the chat to a talk that a guy who I work with by a CTA in Oli Breen who did a presentation, very, very researched. And I haven't even finished the whole thing. It's quite long, but 25 minutes into this YouTube meeting, he's talking about how we basically have, why we silo our efforts and what is holding us back from collaboration, even with the best intent. And it's really interesting. And I think, you know, food for thought for all of us. That was for me. So I'm sure that. Thank you. And the survey is consciously focused on my brain value from my brain to others. And only hints at, gosh, I wish I had a brain or anything like that or anybody using a different tool in a couple of places. It kind of only comes in there a little tiny bit. So you're right, you're very right about it. It's focused in that way. You're muted. Sorry. I don't know if I follow you that in your mind, which was it focused on? It's my brain, particularly not anybody else's, anybody else creating a brain or anything like that. Yeah. No, I know, but I mean, the duality I was talking about was your brain plus you as a resource versus your brain sends you. Well, I'm trying to tease that. I'm trying to tease that out in one or two of the questions where I'm like, hey, the best way is with me or without me or whatever else. I may not have asked those very well because I was trying also to ask that without me my brain is like unusable. I can't figure it out. And there's like some people who are totally happy to go probe my brain without me and then they'll send me a question and say, hey, I noticed this isn't in your brain or could you elaborate on this or whatever? I get those, right? But then there's a bunch of people who like just bounce off it entirely and only enjoy it if I'm busy screen sharing and giving a tour or maybe recorded as well. I don't know. And there's also this interesting difference between only useful when I'm there interactively in person real time versus if I just made like a little video a day, would that be an interesting thing to absorb? So any other thoughts on this? Cool. Thank you for the help very much. I'll keep reporting back. It's fun to see and do and all that kind of stuff. I'm really interested in how we organize ourselves around some of the energy that's bubbling up around our GM conversations around grace and her quest on money and the broader quest about money value, et cetera around Sam Rose and the Civil War conversation and this idea of how do we weave? How do we actually, how do we do the work of OGMing, right? How do we make this a verb that people understand that people are like consistently interested in those sorts of things and what does that turn into functionally? It feels like a very, very billed OGMing kind of question to go in more detail in those areas and offer back to our group a little more structure on what this means. Please. I've got two other topics as well. I'd like to make sure that we hit before the end of the call. One of them is very likely do we sunset the discourse server? Do you want to see what the other one is? Yeah. I think it was, Rob O'Keeffe had a great idea about kind of a periodic regular update kind of email blog post thingy and I wanted to talk about that. Sounds great. Anybody with preferences on the three topics on the table? Let's talk about the discourse server because I think we can sort of answer that question relatively quickly and it's kind of a nicely bounded question. And I haven't jumped into that conversation and when I jump in, it's going to be like mea culpa, mea culpa. Like I think one of the reasons the discourse server hasn't brought any life is that I've been overwhelmed by it. Like I can keep up with our metamos and our mailing list and then whenever I go and try to dive into the discourse server I'm not good generally with threaded forums and trying to find my way and then make a good comment at the end because the time it takes to actually read a thread remember what was said and go back and post at the end. I've been distracted four times by other sorts of things so that format is really hard for me but I really value it and I like that you started it and it feels to me like maybe when we set it up it was like a bridge too far or I could have found a different way to motivate myself to go in but I'm relatively certain that because I'm kind of the spark of OGM that might not inhabiting it and answering questions and helping organize it is a big reason why it's not picked up its own energy although certainly not exclusively and there's a bunch of people who love that kind of forum and could make it into a fruitful zone. Am I close to what you're thinking, Peter? Maybe, the, let me and actually the, I have to say the money discussion on the mailing list would be so much better on a forum. So for me, the question of how we got here is interesting and I would love to talk about it and it's not super important. I wish it were, but it's not. The presenting situation is that the forum software needs to be updated. I haven't been tending it. Bill Anderson, bless his heart, has been actually logging in once in a while and approving people or disapproving people. We got an interloper who didn't seem like he should be there and we decided to kick him out. So the thing is, it's kind of a zombie, a zombie knowledge information system. But it has seemed reasonable to just kind of let it sit there and be itself for a while and see what happens. It's now to the point where the software needs to be upgraded because there's a security vulnerability. The bad thing that could happen is somebody could potentially, I think actually what they would do is somebody could maybe take over the server and start crypto mining or something on it. I don't think anybody's information is at risk. I don't think any people are at risk. It's just, you know, it's a server with attack services and the attack services need to be remediated. Not super, super, super urgently, but you know, soonish. So one choice is for the Sysadmin crew, me probably, to go in and update the software and make it all better again. And if you want, we can budget something from the RUT funds, RUT family foundation funds to do that. Yeah, kind of not an unreasonable path to choose. The path that I like so far and the foreign facilitation team, which is Bill and me and Rob and Charles and Jerry, I think, we haven't heard from Jerry yet, but the rest of us have kind of gone with my other suggestion, which is to turn the thing off, to figure out how to make the information available on web pages at least, static web pages. It would probably not be pretty. It would probably be searchable by Google. You know, it would be not ideal, but not bad. And there's a kind of an obvious question to me, which is, well, why don't you just leave it there and make it read only, right? Because that would fix it and that doesn't fix it. That doesn't fear the vulnerability. Yeah, so we really have to like take the information and suck it out and like, splat it someplace. And it's gonna be harder to navigate. Which is also work. Well, you know, that was part of the technical that I purchased when, you know, setting the thing up in the first place. So that's fine. Anyway, so kind of the proposal on the table is to preserve the information and static web pages somehow and then maybe as a file, maybe in, maybe if it works out and it's not too hard, maybe also in a way that could be unzipped back into a Discord server, should we ever want to. Does it have an archive format? Yeah, you can do a backup. So anyway, kind of mechanically, the mechanical parts of that is it's like, well, you'd probably want to make sure everybody knows that it's going away or that we intend for it to go away unless there's a hue and cry that like, oh my God, it's such an amazing resource and we should keep it. So that's kind of the thing. So two quick comments. One is it hadn't occurred to me to shift the money conversation onto discourse. I was very interested in probably creating a new channel for it on Mattermost because I'm just used to Mattermost and it seems to be a place and I'm liking also that I think other organizations are going to start using your server and to me, Mattermost is like the long hallway that connects a bunch of different organizations because you can go browse the public channels and join other people's conversations and that I think is going to be fruitful in the long run. And so one avenue here is to say, hey, let's give discourse one last swing. I've created a forum for this conversation about money, value, currencies, wealth, et cetera. And let's see if that works. And that probably also implies doing the upgrade. Right, and I don't know if you or others are interested in doing that. I could see if I only had to be worried about one forum that that would be actually a good way for me to get accustomed to it. And then also forum conversation feels like a limited version of the big fungus to me. It's like it's good and it's interesting. And I know that discourse forums are kind of state-of-the-art-ish in that realm, like they're really good, but they don't feel like the fungus that much. They feel like the conversation that should thread around the fungus and sort of be connected into the fungus in some sense, if that makes sense. Anyone else with thoughts? Then Mark, thanks for answering that question for Stacy. So this was something I don't think I was aware of. Of this server? Yeah, I don't, yeah. And I think I've tried Discord and kind of said, me, this is Discord. This is not Discord. Ah, well, perhaps. Discord is actually a different interesting question because Discord is very much like Mattermost. And discourse is more like the well. Huh, okay. Yeah, although it sounds like you're still not familiar with it. Still not familiar with it, yes. And so... There's the link to it. Oh, oh, maybe, no, no, I have been there. Okay. And yes, it seemed like an interesting place. It's just, you know, there's three different places. There's the email, this forum, and Mattermost, and... And the wiki. And the wiki, yes, yes. And I think he's called, Pete's wish was early on were to defecate the mailing list. And I'm like a huge fan of things that show up in your email, like you pay attention to an answer all the time. So I kind of wanted to keep that going. But yes, we have like four different places. I mean, I would say, sorry. Yeah, and this is an interesting test case when it comes to the notion of integration. Boy, is integration difficult and weird. Does everything that happen on the forum and Mattermost gets sent by email? Or, you know, there's notification settings and people can choose that. I would imagine it's simply, huh, how do we integrate when it comes to various information systems? I don't know anybody who solved that problem. I don't know if there's a good explainer. I haven't seen it, Pete. I haven't seen a good explainer out there about the differences between mailing lists, chat, servers, forums, and other kinds of things. The question Stacy just asked himself. I haven't seen a great explainer. But, and it's funny, you know, my fallback stuff is like, well, you've seen a bulletin board system, right? Well, you've seen the well, right? You've seen all the stuff that's been dead for 30 years or whatever. It's how people give directions in Boston. Like, you go to the roundabout and you turn right where the wall queens used to be. Yeah, yeah. Stacy, it's a great question. This course is set up for kind of one of the one of the axes, maybe a couple of different axes for different things. There's how long the messages are, like, how long it takes to create it. Or tweets. And then another one is how immediate it is. So email is kind of an immediate thing and the messages can get long. And there's another thing about email. It was designed for different use than the email lists today use it for. So it's got some problems. Like, the subject line is always kind of meaningless. There's no index to what discussions are going on under, you know, whatever the, you know, there's a money call coming up. That's the subject line of all the discussions that we've had about money, right? You could actually separate those out into different threads. Another thing about email is that each of the messages is carrying along all the replies for all the things. So literally, if you go into one of those messages, each message is a duplicate of the whole thread, kind of from a different point of view from everybody, right? So forum software, discourses a forum, kind of solves most of those problems. It makes a discussion space. It allows long messages. It's on the web, so it's a website. So it's a lot easier to go back and read through things a month later, six months later, two years later, five years later. It's on the web, so it's searched by Google. So if somebody not in OGM Googled up, you know, Grace Money or some of the things that came up, you know, Money and Blockchain and blah, blah, blah, they might actually start hitting on the forum software. That's another good thing. It's discourse, the forum software just allows more kind of surface area for, it's like the ability to have a bunch of email discussions of in different topic areas, right? We could be talking about money, we could be talking about regenerative agriculture, we could be talking about social good and the capitalist system and all of that stuff is pretty easy to find, it's pretty easy to navigate, it's pretty easy to read through threads that have been sitting there for, you know, a day or a week or a month. How is that different than that? Can't we do that on Mattermost too? Or what's the difference? Mattermost, if you had a slider, forum software is kind of like reading books and magazines and if you move the slider more towards text messages but not all the way to text messages, you get Mattermost. So Mattermost is something where a little thing is gonna pop up and say, Pete, you've got two or three things to read, you know, right now. And it helps keep track of that stuff and things are sorted into topic areas but not really into threads. So there is a blockchain channel on, for instance, a blockchain channel on Mattermost or there's the build a gym channel on Mattermost. And you see, you know, things pop up but it's kind of like a text message or WhatsApp or something like that, if you know WhatsApp. It's a little bit of conversation back and forth but anything that happened more than a few days ago has scrolled off and I could find it if I know how to search it but I'm probably not going to find it. So if we had a discussion about money, for instance, you'd get this rich and easier, easier to follow and more rich conversation right in the moment and for a couple days before and a couple days after and then after that the whole thing kind of gets hazy and fuzzy and falls away. So another slider would be memory, right? A discourse forum is super good at memory. It's going to remember things for years and you'll be able to find it super easily. Mattermost can remember things for a few days literally and after that it's kind of like, I don't remember. Email is kind of this weird mishmash probably I can find it if I do a search in my inbox but I'm probably not, I can't browse through it. I can't find discourse, the forum software, you can go back and when we were operating 2020 or whatever, you can see all the things that we were talking about and you can just browse through them. In your email inbox, in your mailing list, it's like, I don't know what we were talking about a year ago or two years ago. I think there was a money conversation. I think we talked about whatever but there's no way to find it, right? The forum software just makes that trivially, beautifully easy to do. So I would really, really point sort of, I think reality check. I think it's interesting that Slack ate the business world and people are sort of more or less happily on Slack cooperating, reducing one thinks maybe a bit of the email which was part of the picture of social text was like get rid of some of your email. But Slack is really caught fire and its plugins make it really functional because you can get data from your different, services across the enterprise which is a different conversation. But corporations are not sitting, talking and threaded discussions that I know of almost anywhere. Like it hasn't really caught fire. And then Stacey's adding like Facebook and I'm assuming kind of Facebook group structure which has caught fire as well. And is Facebook groups more like Matamos slash Slack? Is that kind of the- I would say Facebook groups is a little bit more like, it's more like a forum than Matamos, I think. But I don't think of like Threads and- It doesn't have the, yeah, it doesn't have the information management features of a forum. But they're very popular. The Slack thing, so in a company you need a way to walk around the virtual floor of the company and from Q to Q, right? You have to go tell somebody, yo, today is the day I need that thing from you, right? Or by the way, in two weeks, we're gonna have a big pitch, right? Where's your status on the big pitch? So you need a chat system like Matamos or Slack just to understand what's going on in your company. Kind of across the board, people don't remember things. People have an oral culture, they don't have a written culture. It's odd when we get to either the storytellers who have, who hold the memory for the tribe or now that I think about it, I don't even know how books work because people just don't like. But anyway, I guess people read books but they don't participate in books. They don't have a written culture. They don't write stuff into the memory of the tribe. That's for specialists. So it doesn't surprise me that Slack is the thing that business likes and a memory system like an intranet or a wiki or a forum thing is not what happens because most people don't participate in written culture, they just don't. Michael, thank you for being patient. Sure. Well, just in terms of the difference, I'm sorry, I wanted to speak to that and also the thing that's missing to me and somewhere between Jerry's brain and a forum, there's the idea of something that really is built around your access to the archival information and is accretive, not necessarily sequential. I mean, though it could be searched that way that takes individual posts and lets them be accessed by, I mean, it's kind of hard, like you can't, if you're interested in a subject and you're looking at a forum, it's not like you can say, show me all the posts that are tagged this or that are from, with some bulletin board software, you can say, show me everything from this person, but it's this Kluge jumping into a middle of conversation, jumping out, it's not really an information access, it's not built for information access, it's built for ongoing discussion. I think I disagree. Well, I mean, if you wanted all the information. I did use a trigger word, I used trivially, which- Sure, sure. But could we look at the OGM forum real quick and poke around a little bit? Oh, I mean, I have, and for sure. I mean, it's a forum and it's a good forum. I mean, it's a sleepy forum at the moment, but I mean, I'm pro forum. I'm just saying, I'm just adding to the conversation that for kind of Stacy's sake, like that there's this other thing that is more expressed by, depending on how people use it, a notion of Evernote, a factor of Jerry's brain, all in different ways are about contextualizing pieces of information in different ways for access and sort of non sequential, non that forums and matter most forums and chat, real time chat are both sequential things that may have like links within them and kernels of stuff that you would like wanna search for on their own, but are built for an ongoing somewhat organized conversation, I mean, to flower and that's awesome and we need that. Yeah, I was just looking for a discussion of the other thing, the other things that lie between Jerry's brain and... Sounds like a Twilight Zone episode. There's a more databasey and like, when you were describing a forum, it sounded like you were saying, matter most as a sequential chat forum is more like a database, easily searchable. And I was like, wait, what? If I may, unless there are objections, let me share screen on the forum. And I didn't expect this topic to either call, so. Yeah. I should have known better. But here's the way the forum looks. And so imagine what you can find in the OGM list from 2021, right? A year ago, half a year ago, something like that, right? Would you be able to say that, oh, there's a conversation about OGM as a complex adaptive social system or how we deal with newcomers at OGM. So just from the homepage, there's a bunch of stuff I can, it just falls out of looking at the page, like here's a bunch of stuff that we were talking about. God knows how long ago, right? And then diving into these things, it's like, oh, wow, here's a conversation. So imagine like, so right here, I can visualize like a hundred times much more stuff than I could in the email archives, right? And then on any one of these things, I can click into it and here's a nice thread that I could just read, right? And then there's probably the browse things. I can go see what Tony's talked about everywhere, not just here, right? Or I could search, I could search for money. Here's a bunch of, you know, can you do this in your email list? Probably not, right? How about currency and stuff, right? So we, as I said earlier, we could use the money conversation to see if we can't like do CPR on the forum. Yeah, I think that's, it's a good suggestion to bring up. But in practice, in reality, it's not that we haven't, the problem is one of accessibility, right? The forum is essentially not accessible to people who are used to the mailing list. Mattermost is, you know, barely accessible to many of the people on the mailing list. There's a bunch of people in the money thread on the OJ mailing list who have an account on Mattermost and they don't use Mattermost, right? So what we've found over the past couple of years is that people get used to their information system, whatever the sliders, you know, they like, and they get an ingrained practice of, you know, I get up in the morning, I read whatever it is I read, Twitter or my email inbox or a forum system or Discord or whatever, Mattermost. And that's pretty much what I'm gonna continue to do. So it would be an interesting, it wouldn't be interesting. It would be a valiant effort to try to revive the forum. I think it's not. So are we agreed to sunset it? I think, yes I am. Anybody want to argue for its survival? Well, I think this is ironic because I think what I was saying came up as an attack on it. I see the value, I see the value of it and I think it's a good thing. I'm just, I'm looking for, I'm looking for the library where that's more the meeting hall. It's definitely a thousand times better than the email chain, which is a disaster. You're wishing for the big fungus, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to make you feel like you, whatever, Michael. So another thing that I kind of know about the forum is we've had a bunch of discussions about whether or not we should have a wiki as well as the forum, right? So the amazing thing about Discord is not only is it fairly organically, it organizes itself pretty well, but it's super, super easy to have a small team which we still have amazingly enough. OGM still has a forum facilitation team who would swing into action and do stuff, but for structural reasons, nobody gives a shit. It's super easy to take Discord and groom it into a library as well as a meeting hall. It's amazing like that. You could start, you could have essentially a wiki that's easier for most people to use inside Discord, right? You could have a notion that's easier for most people to use inside Discord. It takes a tiny bit of gardening, but it's a really small amount of gardening. It's easy and fun and useful. And so we had that discussion about OGM forum, should this be the wiki rather than NASA wiki? But your point is taken. It is first and foremost, it's a meeting hall. And I'm like, I've never known it since I've been involved, you know, about a year, never been pointed to it as where the action was to the degree that I was toward MatterMos. For sure. And so I sort of, you know, given what you say about Discord, I'm sort of sad to see it go before I really got a chance to try it and wonder about the push thing. At the same time, I hear what you're saying, Pete, that like, oh my God, you know, it's gonna be a bunch of work to try and rekindle this, which could fail anyway. And do we wanna go down that road when it seemingly hasn't worked? There's actually not that much work involved. And I'm down to do that. And I think probably a good chunk of the foreign facilitation team would be. It's, what we found out is that it's very unlikely to be successful because it's not, you know, it's not the way people think. It's not the way people want to interact. It's not, you know. I don't know that it's not the way people think. I think that it takes some discipline and some group crafting work to get in there and do it. I think it's doable if there are some very successful discourse communities out there having a very fun time with a power tool. It's just that, like when you have a table saw, like when you have an actually good circle saw with a miter joint and then over there you've got like a high water pressure cutter and you have to learn to run CAD-CAN software to do it. Like what you can do is like phenomenal but you've gotta be in there with some discipline and some, you know, some whatever. And it's not even discipline because this isn't an unruly space like a wiki. This is a highly structured discourse form that kind of unfolds by itself but getting people in there and all that takes some work which we haven't been able to do. I kind of want to say that I want to go back a little bit to the money conversation and how to scaffold it because I think there's a couple of things happening there and I really like the energy around it and I love how Grace posted to the whole list and said, hey, kind of here's my project and here's what I'm trying to get done. And I think that there's kind of a Grace thread inside of the larger money, value, currency, conversation and thread. And discourse might be a great place to manifest those merely as sort of pieces of a forum section with some threads and some conversations that might actually make it kind of palpable what that's like because there's things that could happen that are specific to Grace's initiative that I think a lot of OGMers might be interested in helping with and how that fits inside of a larger conversation is itself like really interesting, including what is the role of blockchain Bitcoin, NFTs, et cetera, et cetera in this future and other kinds of threads like that. So I'm interested very much in money as the opening for better scaffolding for a deeper discussion because I don't see how to do what I just said easily using MatterMost. I think it's going to turn into here's a channel and it's going to be a bunch of conversation. It's going to be like stepping into the locker room and hearing a bunch of people talking. Yep. Can I ask a question about? No. I always want to say that when somebody says, can I ask a question when they're perfectly welcome to ask a question like, yes, please. So the email chain is completely independent of any, that's just email. And something when the conversations are going on because I have to confess, I thought that I was receiving email notifications of a conversation that was happening on the OGM forum for the longest time. And I've realized that it wasn't that because I didn't see the activity on the forum when I went to look for it and then I never went to the forum again. But if there was some way for people who are only emailers to know that the discussion that was happening there was being mirrored in some other place and recorded and therefore searchable, that would be awesome. So let people do their own thing. And like I say, I thought it was the other way around. I thought, oh, I'm not going to read this email because I can always go back and read it on the forum. This sounds like an interesting conversation. I'd like to delve deeper. I wonder where it came from. And it's not that. Jay is going to go. So should we talk about this next week and hold on any action? Yeah, Jerry's lamenting. I'm like, do we have a revival meeting or a funeral? Like I'm totally torn. All right. Let's talk about it next week. Let's do that. That sounds great. I thank you for this. Yeah. Thanks, Tom. Thank you.