 This is the generative commons call on Wednesday, August 4th, 2021. I like that idea of the gratitude and the circle and the gifting. It sounds like a terrific social process. And I also agree with you Jerry most people are not aware of their superpowers. And of course, often the people who do think they have superpowers are on the dark side. The opposite, the counter positive. I don't even know what the logical thing is. It's often true as well. Yeah, alas. Now with all these power films, there's always a dark side. So have you seen the series The Boys? No, I haven't. I believe it's on Netflix. It's about it's about a bunch of superheroes that have become media celebrities. And this woman discovers she has superpowers joins them. And it turns out that they're all murderous assholes. And that behind behind the scenes they're all just trying to make more money they're all like back stabbing each other, abusing the women. The whole thing it's called The Boys. And the premise is really cute and it's pretty well executed so anyway. Yeah, that's what really happens when you're a superhero. Yeah, unfortunately. I shouldn't say that another interesting thing is people are unaware of their superpowers, but hyper aware of their super weaknesses. You know, everybody knows. Well, actually, I shouldn't say that. I mean, sometimes they're unaware of their weaknesses. But they fear, they're much more likely to fear weaknesses than they are to feel good about strengths. And that's really interesting to themselves to other people's superpowers. Yeah, some things that they would say, Oh, this person has a superpower. Oh, I don't know. And also I have this deficit, you know, over here. Yeah, because because the idea of the weaknesses really makes a lot of sense. Many of us are crippled by our weaknesses. And one of the best things a community can do. And this has been tried by a lot of personality profile systems which are kind of unreliable and not very good like Myers Briggs. But what a good thing a community can do is compensate for or fill in for one person's week actual sort of weaknesses or, you know, I'm not the best project manager you do not want me doing your accounting or your project management, trust me on that. But I'm really great at designing an event and all that kind of stuff. So how do we how do we marry up with each other temporarily into projects or whatever in a way that that fills in those gaps really nicely and turns us into super people as a team. And so, and so Stacy, I think there's a piece of this that might be really interesting and team forming and other sorts of things and I, you know, I don't know. And sometimes the more explicit you make some things that doesn't help them. Right, so explicitness can be can be a boon and can be a problem. For example, in a directory of humans. Knowing who the super ace connectors are doesn't necessarily help those connectors. Like they suddenly get flooded with a bunch of people saying, Oh, connect me connect me and they, they said they stopped being able to just use their natural judgment about because what they're what they're usually good at is meeting any human, reading them in some way and figuring out who they should talk to what questions that it looked they're probably looking at the whole, the whole kind of thing when you have good good human judgment. Like, like you get a read like that right and that, and if they're performing for you it twists that around. Yeah, the labels can be killing. I totally agree. Something that goes through my head here as, as we say this is paralleling this to information sharing and the, the difference. Well, I mean when we're talking about recognizing superpowers and and giving gratitude and compliments and doing the supercut on in human terms that's, that's really great. It has, you know, the the drawback of, okay, we've just defined this member of the super team as, you know, super. Master of ceremonies and this person as you know super getting things done accounting and all these things so they're kind of defined and and maybe typecast a little bit and they don't get to do the thing that they're not so good at so you know a little bit of danger there. But thinking about it in terms of information we're sort of. I'm imagining the idea that you have free form. A bunch of different pieces of information, and everybody describing that piece of information in terms of in terms of just a tag that could be, you know, as simple as the shape of this. The, you know, it's not a value judgment to say, hmm, this is circular, and this is square. If we need to roll something somewhere let's go with the circular one, you know, and likewise with information pieces, just being able to say. This is that and have a bunch of people define it in the different ways they choose to define it, which may or may not overlap is the sort of information sharing. So, you know, it's, it's, I know, it's certainly what factors about and, and, and I know like what the like, this is, this is something interesting where does it fit. Sorry, so this sort of a rambling free form thought but just the idea of making a system, both for people that is is flat enough to say, I'm tagging this person with the characteristics I see so that they're findable and with pieces of information, likewise so there's a little bit of valuation and a little bit of crowd reinforcement like if a bunch of people tag you with a characteristic that is the same. I mean some people might, you know, say something about your appearance your height your whatever, and but a bunch of people would say, boy, you know, Jerry brings people together, you know, and and so like that emerges from being a flat. A flat fact to being a flat fact that many people perceive about this person ergo probably a superpower. And, and the same thing happening with with pieces of information where there may be some mischaracterizations of something but they won't happen often, and the correct things will show up often and make that thing findable by that term. Yeah, I mean, kind of obvious but you know, it's good and LinkedIn sort of tries to do that with skills and when LinkedIn skills were young and green. It was working pretty well and then people just started sort of piling on, and I think it's lost a lot of its edge. Before that there was a service called connect dot me I think, which I was part of, and they had a stormy. And I mean like, like, like good storm, kind of debut before they actually ever open the doors. They invited a bunch of people in to do this with and for each other. And that was really really actually awesome because I remember going and tagging different people with skills and that it was really frothy and then that entity didn't make it because they didn't actually manage to open the doors and take off. And then one last one last thing here which is Pete has become a fan of descript, which is a sort of basically a video and audio editing service where the first thing it does is it creates a transcript. It's insanely brilliant. The first thing it does is it creates a transcript of the recording, right, then you can edit the transcript as if you were editing Google Doc. And you can delete things you can you can sort of move things around and so forth and then hit show me this recording, and it will stitch together the video beautifully for the newly organized words. And so it does that magically, and then it has a deal with a piece of software called Liarbird. And if you can train it up on one person's voice you can add words that that person didn't say, and it will speak them in their voice and fold that into the video if you want to do that. Okay, whoa. And that's that gets into deep fakes and whatnot territory pretty quickly. However, if you had, you know, if you were trying to put together something you said and didn't say this correctly you could kind of fold it in, it will not do that for video so it won't it won't do any tweening and fake your, you know your head. I don't think it can do that but it can do the audio. So that's really interesting. So that descript could be a much easier way to do the edits of a gratitude because I think that the job of actually cutting that up and moving around is really time consuming and a real labor of love. And I think I don't know whether it was Lauren or Charles who were doing most of that editing I think it was Lauren. But man, she was putting in the time to do those things. And with that I'll pause and I'll apologize to Stacy because we've just layered like 10 things on the task that you put on the table, which was a joyous happy hey let's record some videos of gratitude about people, and I don't I don't mean to like, like, like overload the thing. We're just kind of riffing on the thing and then just wanted your thoughts. Oh you want my thoughts, if you would. Oh, the thought I just had is when you mentioned something like these script now maybe I'm being naive. But I'm wondering why not go to a company like that and see if we could work something out with them. I, that's in my head to, and I think we have to figure out what it is we want to do and show but, but we could say hey we're a nonprofit. We would love to be your showcase. We would love to do some great things with it and then you can advertise how cool it is by showing our work or whatever. That could be really cool. I mean that that would be, and there's no harm in approaching them and saying hey what do you think. There's no harm in trying to go even further than that there's no harm in trying to get something back financially to be able to use towards good, good work I mean we're performing a service for them. Sort of true, although we should be in technically paying X dollars per seat per per month for the privilege of doing so, and they're probably a startup without a lot of budget for supporting outsiders doing stuff, but they would pay media companies to create a good ad campaign Yeah, exactly so some somewhere in that territory lies the range of the realm of the possible. Cool. Thank you. And thank you all for the for the riff. Let's take ourselves back into the generative comments. I'm basically underwater here and so is Hank apparently with his underwater ukulele players. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, mine is a kind of generative comments. I mean they they are in the same space. They seem to be trying to do something together. They are generating something. So, is that a good generative comments. I think that's a rhetorical question. That's why I chose this background for this. Yeah, this conversation. I was away for a while, and I know that Michael and, and you got Stacy and maybe Judith have been talking about this a couple of times when I was gone. I did see one of the videos that was posted. I'm interested in trying to make it a little more concrete for myself, because I talk about generative comments now to everyone. It's one of the things that that when people say well what are you interested in I, I just grafted it on to what I have been calling in the past. I don't know if it's vital innovation labs or distributed labs for distributed collective intelligence or mission labs for for addressing the sustainable development goals, or an innovation comments and to me. There's no label of being generative. I first thought about it or heard about it in the work of auto Sharma in some of his early work. As he was still defining dialogue and the new process. He defined that at that time must have been 1015 years ago, four types of dialogue. And since I was working with dialogue, he became a big influence of my thinking. And the, the first kind of dialogue was talking nice. And then if you can get through that then you start talking tough. That's where a lot of discussions actually end so they don't really become a dialogue. And then you get reflective dialogue where people actually listen to what other people are saying and listen to what they themselves are saying, and they come to understand what people are all about and what they they themselves are all about and what their words mean to other people and stuff like that. And that's as far as most people in dialogue sessions yet, but he did define the fourth level which he called the generative dialogue in which you could use that information about what my words mean to me and what my words mean to you into generating something new that wasn't there before. You know, new knowledge breakthrough ideas, new relationships, etc. So I really like this, this concept and in my work in dialogue in groups every once in a while you do get a group that can have a generative dialogue so it does happen. I came across the OGM is talking about generative comments, it seemed to fit right in. So, I think I know what I'm talking about when I say a generative comments, but I'd like to be in a group like this group enriched with a few more people who would all be able to have it sort of reflective dialogue about what they really mean when they say generative or commons or an innovation commons or tagging a piece of information which I thought was really intriguing. I'd like to know more about that or or the gratitude circle and then see if we can actually generate instead of just deep understanding. So that's my opening comment. I think I've asked for a better opening salvo. And I would really love to see us generate a document of some sort that we can point to. And where we say this is our best guess at what the generative commons means right now, and how to participate in it. That would be a great outcome. Anybody on what Hank just said, and just by way of sort of thinking through or following a moment for a moment on what Hank was just saying, let me just go in my brain to I had a bunch of similar things but I don't have Sharma's I have four kinds of dialogue that I have from the book leading from the emerging future written by auto Sharma there we go. Yeah, I have four kinds of listening. Yeah, attribute don't extract downloading factual listening empathic listening and listening, which is where the President's Sing Institute and all that come from. Yeah, six levels of listening, which shouldn't be called levels I guess. And this comes from what great listeners actually do an HBR article from 2016 written by Jack Zinger and Joseph Folkman about listening well, have a whole article about listening well, I mean a whole article a whole thought. And listening. All these things are kind of collected under here. And then when I when anything I assume that these are connected here but whenever I have a whenever I have a thing like the six, six levels of listening anything. I put that under a really fun thought called enumerated wisdom, which basically is number, you know, the four primordial. The four primordial teenage drives, the four rules of permanent permission marketing the four s's of intimate relationships, the four strategies of outrage managers. And these go up into every other like outrage management is very different from intimacy intimate relationships right. So, so this is a really, really fun place to wander around and get lost all with the link in the chat. It's also a great distraction from what we're up to right now but it might be a sharper develop the idea or took the idea on the development from Bill Isaacs. So, it might be in your brain on the bill Isaacs I'll get you a reference for it and after the call and and I'll mail it or I'll put it in the matter most. Right, and you're reminding me of some things that that like Sharma and presencing have institutionalized or formalized or grooved and formalized is too strong a word, but in saying that these these different kinds of listening, and and then doing things that get people into the mode of listening well or better. They improve the conversation they improve the dialogue, and we know GM aren't really using any of those tools where, you know, we're just sort of wandering into this and the way you know I think the tone we set is good and we're doing some of that, but really not using any of these other tools and ways that would be productive for us and we probably, we probably could. And for instance, Scott mooring is a big fan of the DSRP framework from the cabrera research group and DSRP is distinctions. And that's I'm forgetting what it is. I'll look it up. But, but it's a framework for analyzing systems. And it's a useful framework. It's like a pretty. It's a exactly. That's all I do I produce I produce a clickbait that that's my job. I have a large hairball of clickbait as as a as a veteran magazine cover line writer which kind of segway segway is into, you know, search engine optimization for lines and knowing, you know, you see these these things that are in the corner of even the most responsible new stores that say, you know, 17 child stars and what became of them. Exactly. Number seven. And so, you know, those, those numbers are temptation. Totally makes sense. And then, and this enumerated wisdom thought is kind of meant to be like a rabbit hole of rabbit holes. And it functions pretty well that way. So, so partly there's a bunch of methodologies or rules of thumb or group process practices or analytic thinking frameworks that we could harness and sort of apply to the stuff that we're doing. And then as a side note, I'm really happy that Pete has sort of put a fire under the emerging event. Since making process, like hey, the Delta variant is out. How do we actually filter our way through the way too much information, and how do we present it in ways that are useful for people who love the information torrent, but also useful for people who can't take the information for but need to know, how does this emerging event affect my life. Like what does it mean I need to think of differently or do differently. And so we had a conversation about that yesterday. And I think that that process will be pretty, pretty interesting. Hank, thank you very much. That's wonderful. That's a quick one just from from the first Google. Fabulous. And I will add that to my brain after our call. Can I underline what you just said Jerry. Yes, please. In what color. Let's see, from my experience, it should be a slightly fluorescent yellow or green. Okay, green. Right. So I don't have to. I couldn't resist. The, the idea that that emergent. conversation. Be. I'm trying to remember exactly how you put it, you know, accessible to people who are overloaded and, and, and made useful by people who do want to deal with the flood. When we were we were having a conversation about how. I mean, it was actually a conversation with with Pete about factor where we were talking about RSS inputs that were unvetted. And we were just talking about the idea of, of getting flows of information that had not sense sense had not been made of. And the circles back to that, that tagging notion, Hank, that, that you glum don't do too, where if there are people who, who are going through that flood and doing nothing more than tagging the things that seem to them to be either valid or representative of something that they're aware of or looking for. Then the cumulative result of multiple people doing that on on a grand flow and doing it imperfectly is that the person who is overwhelmed, not not in a position to do the filtering themselves can come through and say, show me the information on this flow that has been, you know, interacted with or tagged, as opposed to everything, and get this only the stuff, even without knowing what tags, they're searching for, get the stuff that has been tagged that has some, you know, validation, which is immediately, you know, a great filter, a good filter and then they can get to the great filter. Oh, I see among these things have been tapped that have been tagged. The tags are, you know, climate change, whatever, you know, food, and then go deeper. Yeah. So what, so I put in the chat, a couple things, one is like, maybe as somebody's busy filtering and tagging, maybe some of the tags are kind of like a die marker for the unproven sources. Maybe we also should have maybe in factor or in this environment, we should have the ability to say this source is I'm still skeptical of until proven otherwise. And for me, a lot of entities prove themselves over time, like I discovered somebody who's kind of cool and I'm like, I'll watch, but I'll watch sort of skeptically. The majority sort of breeds confidence. So it's like, on the one hand, if I see their name often, this is this is the trick of advertising. It's like, God, that's a stupid ad. But the 15th time I see that ad and start singing their jingle. It feels like it's part of your life and you're suddenly starting to trust them, even though it's a bogus product and whatever else the magic of advertising. But here, if we can actually sort of collectively include a layer of source confidence. And this, this person has no qualifications to be talking about medicine and vaccines, yet has been forwarding fantastic information, consistently over time, and just gets more and higher and higher confidence rating from the collection and and to be fully aware that if a bunch of alt-right QAnon people came into the same tools in the same community, they would use the same ratings to raise confidence on the alternate sources. And you've got to be aware of that and be able to distinguish between, and here of all the scrubs are my friends, he did, basically he's been mapping social networks for four decades, maybe longer. And he has a famous map from back when about the books that liberals and conservatives are buying on Amazon. And whoosh. There's just like this brilliant separation of clouds, where all the blue people were reading this set of books and all the red people were reading this set of books and you could just see it in his visual. And you're like, well, hell, that would explain why the narratives are really different and the belief systems really different, etc, etc, etc. And then there's something, something a radar kind of like that coming out of it, where you could at least say and, you know, and then then there's the open question about what do you do about the streams of lies that have now been tagged reliably but are, but still exist in the sphere. Right. And one of our major problems right now is, and here I'll refer to the article, the brilliant article by Adrian Han the game developer developer saying is queuing on an alternate reality game at ARG, because if we've saw if all society is being run like a master plan, alternate reality game with real world consequences, then, and if one of the tactics inside of that alternate reality game is to flood the zone with shit or misinformation or intentionally invent misinforming stories which is what's happening right now it's like, hey, the COVID vaccine leads to infertility and look here look here look here look here look here. It's like, holy crap. There's there's like no evidence because there's no time passed because whatever. So, so all of this sorry, I just way complexified this thing but but I'm sort of also talking about the reality of in an ideal world with well intentioned participants working toward each other to try to improve the filtering of bullshit. It's actually a much easier task in the real world where there's a bunch of people trying to destroy that very process. The process then needs to have some defense mechanisms. I mean I think that that for sure that that is true and a worry that we have not yet like had to face in any major way on factor but that like we really worry about. And I think if we, if we obviously if you, you know, if you populate a platform, a set of platforms, a hashtag with with people who are of somewhat similar academic scientific strain, it'll be better at first and then better at weeding out infestation of like non scientific thought. But the better the one thing I was going to react to in what you were saying about like evaluating sources is the more flat and mathematic, you know, you can make it before getting more sophisticated like I'm not scoring the quality of this source. I'm just noticing that of the things that have been tagged by the people who are tagging climate change. There are, you know, more from this source than there are from that source that are tagged this, you know, have any veracity and worth looking at. So I'm getting I'm getting a sense. When I look at that source by itself. There's a strength in number of tags or percentage of tags on climate change where it might be weak on, you know, popular music, you know, whatever. That that that there's a source, there's a source metric there that isn't a personal evaluation, though it's the result of some, you know, personal evaluations. Totally agree. For the situation I was describing earlier is identity betting. So if you allow anonymous posting, you get chip posts and there's no real way to corral it. If you have some kind of identity betting, it tends to dampen that behavior and there's that so there's a bunch of other things one can do that change the dynamics in different ways. But then if you if you ask for real names only, then people who are saying controversial but true things will be will be hounded. So people's identities will be exposed even to trolls and other kinds of people so that's a danger so there's a, there's a bunch of interesting tweaks to do on even identity management, right. And that becomes, and if you're tackling anything interesting like sorting and filtering of information that becomes your problem too. Alas, please Stacy. I didn't really answer this question, but a question I have is, what do you do about there are certain people that are really reliable on one topic, and just totally off on another. Yeah. That's wonderful. One example I used to give is when I gave speeches or in like consulting sessions I'd say, I have a friend, David read who I would like to proxy my vote to for any issue that has to do with spectrum bandwidth telecom. Like he has my vote he can act as if, as if he were me on that realm of issues. I would, I don't have any children but I would not want him to watch my child. Like, no, he's completely distracted unreliable in that you know that wrong activity, not an expert whatever but but in this other realm, he is 100% like black belt top grade. Right and then how do we how do we distinguish or differentiate, then there's then there's the other problem of, we tend to idolize the people who won many of whom were just really lucky or just really underhanded. So they like Bill Gates has a huge bucket of money. As a result of monopolistic practices that he and Steve Ballmer basically enforced for two decades and killed off the competition. Mostly they didn't manage to kill. In fact, at one point they lent some money to Apple so that Apple could stay alive so that they weren't completely provably monopolists. So they rescued Apple at one point, but, but, but some people's opinions are overweighted. And if you can show that they reliably offer bad judgments about the future that's good but it doesn't seem to discount them or, you know, make things any any worse so. So what does that mean for what we're trying to do. What do you think we just put on the table. Well, just to, to what Stacy was asking and what you were talking about. I do think that a start. Again, I mean we're really in factor zone so I apologize that I'm bringing up. It's great because you for anything but. But you're a great use case for where everything we're talking about. The idea for starters of of allowing people tag themselves with what they perceive to be there, the areas that they're knowledgeable about. You know our thought that that's a way to say, okay, show me the thing like I would, I would venture a that the person that you were talking about, would not self described themselves and as an expert in child rearing. You know, maybe, maybe she or she would, but probably not. And so if we go at least as a first cut with the stuff that, you know, people say this is the thing you really should listen to me on this is what I know where I know what I'm talking about. And they're willing to say it on their profile. So it sort of puts them in the prove it mode. Then the, the, the sort of second stage of that is having having a visible score that's mathematically derived that sort of. The person says, they know a lot about climate change. Other people who know about change, agree with this person, like, every sort of the time you know they both, they both tag the same content, and kind of look at that. And so they have a lot of technical output against each other so that if somebody sees, boy, I thought I was an expert in climate change, but I see my score is really low there. I think I'm going to take that off my profile because it's embarrassing. So you have a sort of self regulating. Now it's a little. There are some dangers there but I think it might be a rough, a rough start. I don't know, I don't know if it's from my side but you're Michael your connection seems really video janky. We're losing we're dropped, we can understand you which is why I wasn't interrupting but your video is very hesitant and it's dropping out a couple words. I can turn my video off and I will be sad to miss your face but you might have a more, more, more luck with the audio. And then I wanted to add something I added into the conversation I think and build the GM yesterday, which was about Phillips headlock and this whole idea of super forecasting where he's, he's spent years now trying to find who are the super forecasters among us. One of the things you learn if you read super forecasting and his book on this, this topic is that most people make proclamations that aren't actually good forecasts. Yeah, and they're not measurable, like because there's sort of no date there's no there's nothing you can actually say this happened or didn't happen or, or you could say well this happened only it was two decades after the person said it was going to happen or something like that. And, and so, and so one thing that's possible and I'll just apply it directly to factor here is factor could have a super forecasting module mode or just set of features that explicitly says, we're trying to implement some of these features in this dude Phillip Tetlock and others to figure out who you know who's a good forecaster and so click here to add some features if you'd like to play in this pond. And what it'll do is it'll periodically ask you on whatever topic to frame a good forecast. And so there's a there's a sort of a set of a set of hurdles or expectations for what a good forecast is. And it's got a firm date, a measurement of some sort, and kind of a clean statement. You know, the Dow Jones is going to hit 45,000 by x date is like a way too simple version of it. But you could factor could then help people improve their forecasting with feedback on what worked and what didn't work per individual factor could then help people earn a badge as a super forecaster as they consistently do this well that would be really really interesting. I don't know I think that I think there's a bunch of stuff and I met Tetlock at an event years ago I don't know that he'd remember me probably not, but I think I have an app you know if you wanted to go talk to him and say hey, how do we implement this I might be able to open that door. Yeah, there was another I'm trying to remember the name of the woman that we talked to, who was one of the super forecaster group that I think was Tetlock associated that we're doing the. I mean they were selling their services, I think in some cases but they were doing a lot of experiments with how that worked and that's for sure a really interesting idea as a feature set I was just like you know, I like, I like the idea of, you know, would you like to switch to super forecaster mode, you know, try it out. Maybe the idea also that there's an interesting new rating that follows participants on a platform, often only but but this interesting new rating actually helps a lot. Yeah. Because there's, I'm, I'm, I'm really interested in the minority report that gets squished out a lot. And one of the reasons for me proposing a new role in events called story threaders is that I've watched way too many events where in the beginning of the meeting they had brought the right people in the room, there were some really interesting things said during introductions and I'm like that's really cool that's really cool. And you could see the sparks of a great idea in there. And I'm like I hope we get to do that a lot and talk about this a lot. And these things together could be like fantastic. And then through bad group process design, I would watch those ideas be snuffed out, like over and over and over. Very often the ideas would die when everybody clustered the post it's on a big wall and got voted on them and then clustered them in the categories, or into collective rounds. That was usually like like the knell of death for for the minority report for the good little ideas. And the idea of story threading was to get people in with very different expressive skills, a poet, a super game designer, a simulation designer, comics artist, whatever, have them be in the meeting a lot so that they get to see a lot of these randomly distributed little embers, and then say hey your charter is not to map all of the discourse in this meeting like a graph facilitators trying to do your charter is to pick up a minority report add to it your own context, your own view of the world and tell the story in your favorite medium or whatever the best medium is for this story. Right. And so, all of that to say, I'm a really big fan of the minority report in different sorts of events and situations and right now for instance if you're a fan of iver Mekton as a coven protocol, you're in the minority report kind of kind of category. And apparently the FDA has not conducted human trials or approvals or whatever, but it's a drug that's completely like it's been used forever it's on the World Health organizations approved drug panel etc. It just happens to be really effective in treating coven. And yet it's not expensive. It's like insanely cheap. And so there's this entire conspiracy theory that big farm and everybody else are keeping it out because because it's like hey, how do we create a quiet space where we can actually look at data about what's going on and figure out what's going on and then I have one friend who's a doctor who's on one of my lists, who's like hey iver Mekton people. You know and I'm on another list where Carl page brother of Sergey Larry page is busy saying hey people iver Mekton. It's interesting. And, and how do we, how do we protect the minority report and at the same time defend from the minority report that's a Q and on person who's spinning a brand new but exciting conspiracy theory. Right, because that's because that's how terrible conspiracy series theories are also born. Plug, you know, this aggregation and granularity. Again, as, as like outputs for, you know, it's very interesting and like conversations about how we all work together and how different platforms work together and you know trove and massive wiki factor and, and, you know, things that things that other things that exist elsewhere that if something if you if you think about the output of our conversation right here or the kind of conferences you were talking about where a bunch of ideas come up and then they get group on groups and post it and then something like doesn't really fit and so it gets lost. If everything that comes up is based in the sort of organized way and it's like, you know, every everything that came up in this meeting let's let's imagine that we are a trove group. Everything in this meeting gets is a resource that's associated with this meeting under this group in a place on trove. And then generate from it, a, you know, something on massive wiki that was like more of a composed document that builds on those concepts on factor, or other platforms like that, the disaggregated items, including the things that anywhere that maybe just had one or two tags on them are are there loose for the finding to be associated with other things from other meetings that were smoldering embers that didn't, you know, make it to the composed massive wiki, but are the other things that you're talking about which when you pull them together across the conversations in other groups can surface they're there they're like the, and they're the things that, like when you think about. Certainly, it would be nice in the group setting for all of the, all of the stuff that's come up within one group conversation to be looked at by the comic artists or the, you know, the other person who's going to have a different perspective. I also want to put them out there in a more accessible more widely accessible way where the, the fact that they've interacted with this group is part of its metadata. And the, the tags that have been. We just lost the last. We just lost what was after the tags that have a tag. The tags that have association. See I'm getting unstable. You have to feed the hamsters in your router. Yeah, right. I'll give it a try. And just say that that those tags can be surfaced those weak signals can be surfaced and associated in a more widely accessible way. And the, you know, the comic artists can. The comic artists can be out there in the wild, not somebody that you found and discover these things and read them together. Yeah. As you were talking Michael I was realizing, and maybe somebody does this already but I haven't seen it that platforms that help us tag into seminary information from Tumblr to Instagram to factor to many, many others and delicious back in the day and so forth. Pinterest Pinterest a lot these days and pin board which picked up a lot of delicious users. And it would be super interesting to have some analytic tools on top of the flows, and to apply analytics to what's flowing through the platform, and not just not just trending tags, which everybody does, which is great. But other kinds of tools from the different kinds of perspectives we've been talking about here, and probably five more that we would think about. And it would be great to have a brainstorm that way, but wouldn't it be interesting to have different visualizations of what's happened on the platform the last week, or, you know, it's a little bit like when you do the Google now insert what's the Google search called where you search for a term in literature over time. Oh, I don't know the name of it. Yeah, it basically word trends or phrase trends and you can see that creative destruction, you can see that the phrase creative instruction sort of originates here, so because there's a blip in the literature. And then it tapers off and then it rises again when some other things you can sort of see trends over time, which is really, really, really, really interesting. Yeah, that sounds cool and the and I would also inject that the analytics tools be not like, you know, here's what we found but here's a tool that you can use to find. You know that that the idea of having filters at your disposal that, you know, rather than an algorithm that smartly set for you to find things are, you know, ways for you to say I want to see only the things that are tagged this that have been posted by this person that are from this source, whatever. So to me as from the key. Yeah, agreed. And for instance, on Twitter, I retweet a bunch of stuff I hate the Twitter killed off all the alternate Twitter clients. I hate that. So I use tweet deck now grudgingly. I wish there were more choice. And I don't use the Twitter main interface on the website ever because it's not very functional you can't really use it, but I retweet a bunch of stuff. I don't know what I'm retweeting and I would love if there's a pattern. And I, and I, as occasionally I'm like, Oh, I seem to retweet this person a whole bunch I'd love to meet them I wonder who they are, etc. But I don't really go there I don't have the time. I would love to know just the pattern of what I see and what it implies for the reliability of sources. Right. And then some people create Twitter lists of people they follow that's interesting. I've never created a Twitter list I don't use the feature. But my volume would increase too much if I subscribe to somebody's list. So I kind of have been hesitant to do that, except Twitter lists are one very simple week form of saying here's who I think is good and useful in this field. And that's interesting information too. But this meta information isn't being fed. There's like a triple loop learning opportunity in this field. So, double loop learning is like correcting how you're doing the thing you're doing triple loop learning is fixing the system to improve it. And there's a triple loop learning opportunity in this field to instrument what's going through because once there's a torrent of info going through once you've got like the Amazon flood in front of you. It's overwhelming anyway, might as might as well analyze our way through it to make it better. Yeah, Stacy, please. Don't sometimes people follow somebody not because they think they're reliable but just to know what it is they're saying. I mean, I watch Fox, I'm not watching Fox for anything other than wanting to know what the narrative on the other side is completely. I totally agree. And actually some people use Twitter entirely what I would say is wrong. Like my advice to people to newbies is don't use Twitter like you use Facebook. Follow your friends on Twitter. Be very, very miserly about whom you follow and follow only really interesting people who seem to be saying the right thing, or, like you just said, people who are saying something that you feel you need to be in touch with or follow or understand what's up or whatever whatever the right framing for that reason is, but but if you if you curate who you follow with care on Twitter, your Twitter stream will be awesome, regardless how much bullshit creeps into Twitter. Because you're not following people who forward the bullshit. Right, and that that's fine like like a lot of people could attempt to flood the zone with crap, and you might still actually have a fine experience on Twitter, depending on how you curate who you follow. That's all that's what it takes. And that's just a quirk of Twitter. That's because because that's kind of how Twitter works. Okay, just as a side note. So I own story threaders calm. I would love to stand that up as a platform to attract story threaders to make a living and be hired into corporate events, and conferences and other kinds of stuff to perform that role. I would love to be the or story threader with me and my brain because I know that I could exactly do that. I'm basically describing this role partly from my experience and what I know I'm as a superpower of mine. And I've seen other people like Nikki case creating simulations and Jane McGonigal building super games. I've seen other people at work, doing stuff like this and I think that if we like were to connect in on these concepts there's a really powerful. One of the things that I see happening is that there's a bunch of new roles showing up that organizations will need. And just in the story I tell is 30 years ago you couldn't hire a graphic facilitator because it wasn't the thing. Nobody was doing it. And now, a lot of people who have attended events have been there once with somebody capturing the meeting on the wall. And you can Google for graphic recorder graphic facilitator and find people and hire them. There isn't a single community of practice so you can't wander through a bunch of people going yes yes no, but you can find them and hire them. And I believe that 10 years from now there will be a dozen new roles, and Pete talks about context weavers. Pete is a maven. I tried to convince Pete, 20 years ago to buy the domain mavenology.com and begin train mavens like him, because he's a maven. And he's like, I just not good at training mavens I'm like, he knows he's a great maven, but he's like, I'm not good at training other mavens I don't know how to pass on the skill I'm like, because organizations need people like Pete on hand by the bucket full to help the sense making, and they don't know it. Because they don't know it yet, because they don't exist, because we haven't brought this to bear and, and the whole story threader thing is a bet I'm making that I haven't put any money behind that I haven't actually run through and pilot test, because maybe it doesn't play out. I don't know. Maybe maybe it doesn't play out but I have a funny feeling that if you drop people into a meeting with some skills and a charter to not report everything that happened faithfully but rather to find them in order reports and and call them out, and and paint them in a compelling way, have a funny feeling that's really really interesting and useful. You should, you should do something with it because in particular in futures work. So Hank, I say this out loud, because if you wanted to, if you, if you or I or anybody found somebody who'd like to do that as the heart of their business, because for me, doing that and dropping them in the DM and everything else is not what I can do. And but I, but I'm happy to help stand this thing up and be the first story threader and let it go and I'm happy to turn it over to somebody who wants to turn it into a business that's a goal of mine. As they say in the Netherlands, you never know how a cow can catch a rabbit. That's so profound. And really, it's in the real translation it's never know how a hair, a cow can catch your hair, but because hair means different things in different languages. Are you always in say in English as a cow can catch a rabbit because everyone knows what a rabbit is anyway. Is it a has it in Dutch as well. And house. German it's a has it. And Yeah, exactly. If you put it out there enough and I'll put it out there and sometime there'll be a company that says, that sounds like a crazy enough thing to do. If we build it, they will take a risk. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. No, from the first time you mentioned that I thought there's a terrific idea. But now, this is the first time you told the story with the minority report, which is a film I really like. So it's starting to come together in another way in my imagination. Cool, love that. And one of one of the story threaders ought to be somebody who's really good at augmented reality simulations right and can tell a story that way, which takes me over to fail and more life who is an occasional GM member who has a start up right in the middle called virgins XR where he's trying to build an extended reality environment where people like us, whom he calls path makers can leave a trail in the real world of annotations and commentary. And, and Michael might be really interesting if what they leave is a trail of events and stories, right tagged up from factor with a geolocation. Hey, hey, a factor node with a geolocation is a tag in in virgins perhaps. I think I was telling you that we are our geolocation feature is down but we had it for a while and man, it's an awesome thing to do. I'm sure I would love to. And geography or geographic points are just one way to anchor stories, right. And they're they're an interesting way but they're in some sense they're a limiting way because sometimes the stories just not geographic but but they're a beautiful and interesting thing to do. And this reference to to you, you started to talk about the path makers. So this is, hold on. So Phelan is an OGM member and occasional he's he's in some of our conversations but he's really heads down. He and Mark Tebow, who's also been in our, I think it's spelled that way. Both of them are occasional OGMers. Mark has been on a bunch of our Thursday calls, and they're cooperating to try to build up this platform called, I think it's virgins XR I don't know how much they have on the inner tubes. Virgins is a term out of optics it's sort of about the collimation of optical information they don't have a don't think they have a website but but if you if you ping me if you want an intro or just ping Phelan through OGM or whatnot. And he, you know, he could tell you more, but he's he's right now at the stage of trying to get it funded and trying to figure out what's going on I've been helping them or find their pitch and figure out like, you know how does this work. And if you know it's promising but very very young it's not a it's not a thing in the world yet. We've been over our hour. So I'm going to say, if any, would anybody like to offer any thoughts and closing on this conversation. I thought it's another great conversation. Just Stacy were you there yesterday at the. So at the, what was it the build OGM call in the morning. The community food systems call. Yeah, it was it's an interesting group I think it's going to do really interesting stuff, but at the end we had to comment on it and I said, there was no wow it sort of missed an inspiration. And I feel like about this call and these calls in general there's always two or three wow things that I have to go away and keep thinking about. So thanks everyone this was really good. I love that. Thank you. And Michael, please don't apologize for representing for factor and thinking about factor in the in the realm of what we're doing because, because one of the things I hope OGM does is appeal to vendors of software companies and encourage them to write toward the center I call it. I don't know how better to say it toward interoperability toward what the flotilla calls are trying to figure out, you know things like that. And, and so anytime something lights in your head that might be practical and doable like that sounds awesome. And no worries there. I'm still interested in us creating a document that smells like a generative commons agreement or document or something like that. We have a website, a simple website. I would love to create a, I mean, we could create a Google thought I mean I have a starting Google doc, which I can share out with us that where we could just sort of kick around ideas about what to say and how to explain it let me just share that for a second. Because I was on it yesterday and I added a couple new paragraphs so yeah. Fabulous okay I did not know that. Wait I think it's this is it called help us build a generative commons is that the document. Yeah, yeah I just Googled your thing that you would put to the very start of this in matter most fabulous so here's the link to the document. I want to wander in there and the idea of this document was an invitation to people to come in to these calls. This document was meant to be an email we would send to other people to involve them in these calls and do more of this so I only managed to put a couple paragraphs in Hank thank you for elaborating. But if we can build stuff there it's really really simple to copy paste into a website. And I would love and maybe maybe next week we can start the call, just looking at the document and seeing what we can move toward because the more we can move GM calls toward deliverables of any kind, the better I think. Yeah, I really agree with you and I mean I like this idea of the rapid prototype and the best guess and not analyzing things to death. So, that's why I love these sparks of inspiration and these kind of calls. So I just put a few things there that represented what I was thinking yesterday and if people want to comment or edited or wiped it away that's fine. But I think it'd be great if there were four or five or six people thinking together in the document. That sounds awesome I love that. Cool. And then, I'm afraid that I love mutual inquiry, like like collective inquiry, or just the collective sense making thing is like my favorite thing in the world. And, and so I have a peak calls it shiny object syndrome or SOS. And for me, for me it's like OGM bites off more than it can chew, kind of on purpose. And so these conversations are necessary because they're generative in the sense of, oh, this could fit over there and we, you know if we tried that it might lead to something really that fixes a problem over here, and so forth and, and but then we also need to buy us for action and toward building stuff and doing stuff. So, just trying to make that. It just reminds me, sorry, I keep getting these thoughts now. The Chinese dissident artist who why you mean I went I way yeah, and brilliant and fabulous I love him. And a couple of a couple of months ago, there was just a little article in the Dutch newspaper, someone in I think it was Switzerland had a collection of 30,000 buttons, and put that online someplace, and he bought them, not that he had a project for 30,000 buttons, but he thought if I have them some idea will come. So I think you're shiny objects are probably like that Jerry. And that's where he, he hired a village in China to paint pebbles. They're not pebbles they were they were little great. They basically made porcelain copies of a natural object a seed a grain I'm forgetting exactly what it was it wasn't grains of rice that's too small. They were, they were kind of inch long objects, and they made millions of them as a village and employed the village for a couple years. And his project was to pour these out on the floor of a large museum space and have people walk on them. With the with the full realization that each of the grains was handcrafted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of his. He's a genius. I got to, I got to, I don't think I shook his hand but I was at a conference where he was at a really long time ago and he was like that's my way. Yeah. And so I got to stand near him but not shake his hand, and dude is just off the charts brilliant. His hacks of the system and living in China, you know trying to fight what China does his father was a famous poet, who got banished basically sent out to the Google view the Chinese equivalent of the gulag. And then they got kind of reinstated, you know, back into society. Thank you very much for these very generative conversations. Yeah, it was great. Seems so appropriate. Bye.