 Well, we're back with our first conversation. Talent exodus from Nigeria, popularly called Jakba, a Yoruba word for run quickly, has been on the increase in recent time with several fact sectors of the economy losing critical manpower. Now, one of such is the banking industry, according to reports and a copy of job listings for recruitment website, found that some banks have even reduced the education criteria for their recruitment process due to all of this. Now, some of such banks are Access Bank, the Fests Bank of Nigeria, Guarantee Trust Bank, that's the GTV Fests Minument Bank, and the Polaris Bank, reduced their minimum eligibility criteria for their 2022 graduate trainee programs to a second class lower grade, that's a 2.2 from a second class or per class, that's a 2.1 and the Fests class grade, they used to be demanded from job seekers. This is just one out of many ways, the loss of skill and qualified manpower has affected the bank sector. I mean, this is according to expert report. When joining us to discuss the effect of mass movement of bank workers from Nigeria is Abraham Great, a public affairs analyst, who joins us this morning from Canada. Abraham, it's good to have you join us, good morning. Good morning, nice to have you again, good morning to you, how are you doing? Very well, I see you look very great, apparently, you have no idea what's going on here, so you look very relaxed and chilled, but that's on the lighter note, let's quickly get to the crux of this. What are your thoughts exactly? I mean, there's several reports that we have bankers leaving the country, very skilled persons leaving the banking sector. What exactly do you think is responsible for this? Well, my thought generally is that we take JAPA, too serious of a thing, as sieve is only Nigerians that are JAPA in. In the case of key skills that are leaving the country like doctors and now we're talking about bankers, the country need to be worried in terms of the skills that we're losing in mass. I mean, it is recorded that there is about the banking industry have lost nearly 10% of its staffing strength in the last six months alone in Nigeria, and if that continues, I mean, that is a very, very huge loss. We have to look at what is the primary reason why people are leaving, and we have to look at it this way. Number one is the economic reason. I know we have security issue in the country in Nigeria, but the number one reason is the economic reason. So when you look at it, the average salary that has been paid to bankers in Nigeria I think is about 92,000 Naira, between 92,000 Naira for junior staffs to about 435,000 Naira to senior staffs in Nigeria, compared that to whatever is on offer anywhere else. Now banking needs to understand that we are going through globalization while the banks are still struggling with internationalization. The difference is that the banks are trying to open branches in one or two countries around Africa or around the world, and they are still trying to treat their local staff, paying the local salaries, but people are now global. People can see the jobs served, the job sites around the world, and they can see that their degrees, their wealth, their experience, their CV is worth earning like maybe 5,000% more than that. Every human being normally will want to be somewhere where they can earn a lot more money. And then the second reason is security. We are in a situation where for the last few years the country is actually not secure. In fact, let's put it this way. The country seems not sane for anybody to live in. So no matter who you are, either you are a nurse, you are a doctor, you are a banker, you are a mechanic, you are a plumber. No matter what the career is, people are just thinking of finding another place to live at the minute. So that's my thought on why people are living. Okay, but let's also begin to look at some of the arguments that Spain put out. For instance, if you have people that are living, you also have a population of people that are not employed. So you have 1,001 persons who have dis-cues. How come there's been no replacement in the bank sector? Because it's looking like it's the end of it. Well, we have to look at that in perspective. The banks have their role for training. But also besides training, we also have the government integration of people. So for example, a few days ago, we have people graduating from NYSE. When people do NYSE and they graduate, how do we integrate them into the system? How do we integrate them into the country? What are the incentives? What are the social benefits of being a Nigerian? So first, you have the banks that, the banks have to really start the situation that is going on right now and provide solutions to, I mean, people will keep going. And the reason why people will keep going is that there are countries around the world that need people and they're going to keep fishing for people. Nigerians are one of the key people that they will look for because we speak very good English. We are well educated. I mean, we are finished. We have class. We have all the kind of things that people are looking for. So countries like the UK, like Canada, like the US, like France, like Germany, they will keep looking for Nigerians because they know that we can feel in their job shortage. So banks have to look at the pool of the population of people who are graduating, people who are going to polytechnics, people who are going to, you know, all the different institutions that we have. What is their recruitment strategy? But also, what is the return on investment in terms of when they train people, how long do they stay with them? Also what are the intrinsic benefits for people? So if I'm going to stay in your bank, I know you've trained me. I know you've employed, but what is the need for me? So study has shown that the industries of the, you know, yeah, the employer, who gives accommodation, who gives transportation, who cater for the basic need of their staff are able to retain their staff a lot longer. Let me say this before I pass back to you. It is very out of proportion. If out of proportion the amount of money that banks make in Nigeria proportionates to the kind of salary they pay, the parity is too large. But because of this parity, and this is what I found. What I found is that a lot of the banks, when they make profits, this is what they do. They diversify instead of investing that money a lot more in human capital, in exception of some banks, maybe UBA or what have you, most of the other bank, what they do, and if not all of them, focuses on diversifying their resources into other kind of venture not looking at the human capital development as a whole. Well, let's also look at the report and the survey that has been carried out. Job listing from recruitment websites found that some banks had reduced the educational criteria for their recruitment purpose due to, you know, too many issues. So I'd like to ask you, with the current situation that we're faced with right now, I mean, the banking services are not sweet. Do you think that it's because of unskilled and unqualified presence in the system? That's what we're faced with? Well, there are sectors that can be mitigated by employing people with low qualification. But there are key expertise like the IT and other industry that they cannot just, you know, fill those gaps by just picking random people. But when they pick the low end people, they can also profile training. And let's look away from the bank also, the country needs to restructure the education and training system also to be able to allow something that is called the NVQ, which is the national vocational programs in the country. What that means is that there are people who dropped out of university or people who went to secondary school, but who have gained, I mean, solid experience. My uncle used to be a chairman of Wormer Bank for many years, from the early 80s until, you know, much later in the 2000s. And I recall that all he says to us in the family, most members of my family were in the bank working in Wormer Bank at the time, even if you have a secondary school education, he wants to integrate you into the system and then you keep growing and then you can go to Polytechnic or university on a part-time basis. But what the country can do actually is that we can have the national vocational program that even if you had OMB or you have a school tax and you have started at the receptionist in the bank, that your years in the bank can count towards a degree. So what I mean by that is that someone who had been in the system for 12 years, who are the reason of the ranking, can go into a university and say, look, I have worked at a bank as a branch manager or as an operation, in charge of operation, he writes all my experiences together and I think a degree can be awarded to me. Now, in many part of the world, this system works. In the UK, for example, this system works where somebody had worked in McDonald's, somebody had worked in a kitchen, somebody had worked somewhere, and after a few years, they can put all of their experiences together and voila, they have a BSC, they have a degree or they can take that experience and go straight for a master. That is one of the reasons why some of these people come into Nigeria and somebody will argue with them they don't have a degree or they have not done that because there are different systems that can train people for the shortage of occupation in the country. Great. My question to you is the current crisis that we're facing right now in the banking industry which is affecting a lot of Nigeria, do you think that it's because of the poor manpower that they have or the banking sector have? Could this be the reason why all of this is going on? We wouldn't attribute it to just the bank alone, we have to look more holistic into what is going on in the country so because it's not only the banking industry that is losing people, so we have to look at what is going on in the country as to why people are leaving the country and we have said there is economic hardship in the country but there is also security issues in the country but let's go back to the economy so someone that is earning 92,000 as a banker, 92,000 business cannot even sustain you for a week in Nigeria. Nigeria for those who live in Lagos or Abuja, Lagos alone is even becoming more expensive to live than to live in London and I'm saying this to you and live in different countries. The cost of living, the cost of transportation, the cost of food, the cost of just general outing in Nigeria is becoming extremely high and unless Nigeria drastically industrialized to bring down the price of basic amenities, people will keep living for greener pasture where they can earn a lot more money. It's happening in India, it's happening in Bangladesh, it's still happening till now, it's happening in China also, they're losing a lot of people to the developed world. Okay so I'd like us to begin to talk us to what this means in terms of you know the implication for the Nigerian economy. Now that we have, I mean you have rightly said that we're losing skilled personnel and we're also having those who are not very skilled affecting the banking sector. So what's the implication for the Nigerian economy? I mean you look at how much the banking industry contributes to the GDP of the country and the latest report from the last quarter of the year say that about 10.2 of that revenue over 200 billion of revenue was lost from the banking sector alone. So unless there is a very creative measure to put in place the banking contributions to the GDP may continue to be lower. Now staying that a lot of bank owners have to come together again and rethink how they can you know contribute to boost the economy of the country by not only having the profit to their pocket but reinvesting some of their profit into training and into helping the country to find solutions to some of the problems that is going through at the minute. So let's begin to also talk about you know solutions right there. What exactly do you think that we can do now as a people that's first before and then as a government you know to solve the problem? First we have to realize that the country is in a mess and it will take a number of years. I think it will take more than a lecture to be able to repair the country and then we all have to become innovative. So for example we're still stuck with banking in terms of going to the physical banking when the entire world is already moving to I mean virtual banking there are banks now in the UK in the US in America and stuff that does not even have a building. So the banks can cut costs in a lot of way the bank can retrain a lot of people to work from home the banks can innovate technology the banks can I mean there is a lot more development that can happen in the country but also in terms of the country I would always go back to Manslow hierarchy of need the first need of the human race is a physiological need as long as people cannot breathe good hair people cannot drink good water people do not find food to eat they're not going to be productive you cannot have the economy growing when the basic need of the human who lives in that country are not met. So we have to start with first of all let's provide an enabling environment the country no matter who rules are needs to provide an enabling environment starting from say electricity if the entire country is you know of electricity you will begin to see the outward the impact of that into the performance of the banks in human you know contribution generally to the economy so but I mean so that's that's one of the solutions okay should I let you go on no okay so the other thing that the banks or the country would need to invest a lot on is to create more institution where people can be trained for key sector like technology and for banking and for agriculture so in Nigeria we have institution we have university but what we do not have is technical institution that can train people specifically for specific you know jobs like in the banking you don't necessarily have to go to the university for five six seven in some cases seven or eight years to earn a degree to work in the bank there are so many institutions in the country that can be created or that already existed so one of them for example I mean Abraham Abraham the reason we're having this conversation is that the rate at which you know the jack per movement has gotten to us that is it's on the high I mean so the jack per trend is typically on the high and that's why we're talking about this and we see that the banking sector according to reports is that you seem to have a lot of people moving away we've had several sectors originally we thought the doctors were the ones that were moving and then gradually we move from the doctors to the teachers from the teachers now we're in the banking sector where you have those who are in the IT unit or department are moving and what have you now if you were saying that we need to as a way of solution create institutions not very regular universities but create vocational not necessary vocational but you know specific institutions of learning where people can go acquire knowledge and they don't have to probably end the degree to you know get the knowledge and work in the banking industry or sector but see the problem is when they gain this knowledge they eventually are going to leave you know so people are training to become whatever it is they're training to become doctors they're training to become teachers but eventually everybody is moving so how do we stop the moving you know the movement we know we can't stop that I mean I probably would say movement is natural but how do we reduce it to a barest minimum because different sectors of the economy are crippling down I'd like to remind you of what I said earlier that every human being want to be better of economically so when people are earning less I'm going to say that again so when people earn 92 000 naira you have to understand that when they look at that skill can earn better in Ghana or in South Africa or in America they're going to dream to be in those countries so the rate of the economic reward in Nigeria the incentive the salary the wages at the moment are extremely low to global standard and human beings no matter who they are will react to that no matter the sector that they are Nigeria needs to work at bringing the level of income of our people the minimum wage higher people are genuinely suffering you know I listen to some of the words of sheung sheung kuti is that people are not jackpot people are people are escaping so what it is is that people are suffering and what people are looking for is a better place where they can make their life better the other thing is this I think we need to work seriously on de-emphasizing our talk on jackpot for example I read a report I read an article that is talking about jackpot for banks and they are saying that Nigeria is the top three countries in the UK that is not true Nigeria is not even in the top 10 countries that are migrating at the moment into the UK I have a list in front of me is Polish India Romania Irish you know Pakistan Germany Italy Bangladesh Chinese and Portuguese those are the top 10 but everything you focus on magnifies as long as we keep looking for the negative things to dwell on to make a topic a subject to to talk about we're not going to find solutions we have to de-emphasize some of the problems we have in the country in the media this is what they do in Canada this is what they do in America America will not tell you that over 52,000 people are dying of crimes of gone on a yearly basis but they're going to report what is happening in Nigeria we need to de-emphasize our problem a little bit more so that we can find internet solutions because whatever we focus on will magnify okay so I mean I really understand but just to say that even if we have we get to a point where we say we have this institution and government creates that but if you don't address the basic things that should be addressed then you would always have people who want to move because I know a lot of persons who say I mean Lagos traffic is a lot and so people have moved just because of the traffic it's not because it's not because they don't have money to survive or because they're hungry but you know they are moving because I mean it's not even favorable the environment is not conducive it's not very okay for them to leave and so that's why they're moving but however there's also another fear I mean it's a conversation that sometimes we don't like to have because we think that oh that's dwelling on negative do you think that we probably might just have the conventional banks as it is right now in Nigeria going extinct that the fact that we have 54 percent of the unbanked we probably might just you know get a larger percentage to be unbanked now the the the essence of this policy according to the CBN is that we want to you know cater for the bank we want to show that the population of the unbanked are banked now that this is happening do you think that we're going the other way to have the population that are banked to now get to the point where they are unbanked and do you think that we gradually get into a point where there might just be a total extinction or gradual extinction of the conventional banks you see with the advent of technology the country need to move fast so there will continually to be banked what you want is to have everybody in the banking system every human being including children in the country to have a bank account is one of the way of gathering data is one of the way that you can have good security in the country because you can trace people with money or by money so wherever you can find money you can trace people you can trace crime you can trace so the real thing is that you really want to have you want to capture every human being in that country in the banking system but we have to leave this fixation on the way things are done so when you go into the banking system in Nigeria for example you're still filling forms you're still having a lot of forms you're still having some of the you know some of the pages of the form are not it's not even clear so you're still going through procedures that people countries have left behind like 30 years ago Nigeria need to catch up sectors banking you know the different power sectors need to catch up with technology we need because of our economy of scale we need to start doing like China and running ahead of the rest of the world in terms of technology we've got the brain but the policies the public policy in Nigeria are very thief the public's policy does not make life easy for sectors like the economy like like the different sectors in the country suffer because of public policy an example is what we're going through right now in the banking industry with a new note I mean yes maybe the president or whoever is behind wants to ensure that you know there's not cash around for specific politicians not to be able to buy both but what is the data what is the science what is the science behind that if it is not personal that is making the life of an average Nigeria more difficult even though you're trying to get at something but we've seen that the rest of the world in the UK we just change currency uh because we're having a new king but it's going to be phased out I recall that you know in Northern Ireland uh sometime ago the currency changed and I wasn't there for like two years and I stayed at the old Northern Ireland currency pounds and went back there but they will still take the the note from you but in Nigeria why this needs a reaction why making the life of people miserable so it's not just it's not just the banks the government has to play a role public policy have to make the life of an average Nigerian a lot more easy you have to get a point and I am grateful to know now that there are banks in Nigeria where at the click of a phone you can actually open a bank account we need to have more of that we need to have advancement in technology so that people don't need necessarily need to be you know in the physical bank that will help you know a whole lot let me say one more thing you see in terms of talking about why people leave we're talking about the salaries law and and stuff like that when you look at what public officers like the senators the house of assembly the amount of money that moves around in Nigeria you know uh red chambers or the green chambers you will wonder that can we really not move the minimum wage in this country is it not possible when you look at the profit that the private sectors are massive when you look at the amount of money the banks are making in terms forget what they report the actual profit that they make in terms of gross does it really mean that you cannot bring Nigeria to the standard of South Africa or you cannot bring Nigeria to the standard minimum of some country I'm privileged to have been to so many countries in the world over 50 countries in the world there are seven countries in the world that I do not know under this ever why Nigeria will need a visa I don't see why in Nigeria will need a visa to Romania or to Ukrainian those countries are not better than Nigeria but because Nigeria including Guinea-Bissau yes I mean most of I lived almost five years in in ibericles from my teenage into my early 20s and you will hardly see an Ivorian trying to travel because there is permanent electricity do you I mean in every home you can come on the top and you drink water I mean in the country there is social benefit for every citizen in the country in South Africa how many South Africans you actually see in the UK how many South Africans are there in Canada we have to go now Abraham great thank you so much and being prompted that we're out of time it's a delight listening to you show your thoughts on this and we just hope that the relevant quarters will pay attention you know to some of the issues that you have raised and concerned and then we'd have you know a Greek country I mean it probably would sound very simple but that's it thank you so much for joining us this morning thank you for having me all right have a great day we have been speaking with Abraham great who joined us this morning from Canada as a public affairs analyst we take a quick break now when we return the federal government has established an investigative panel to probe alleged human rights violation that's especially in the north east however would definitely have a guest join us when we return for a second conversation you stay with us good morning