 You're welcome back. They embattled former Deputy Senate President Ike Kweramadu, told Justice Nyangekwo of a federal high court in Abuja on Thursday that the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission was responsible for its travails at the London Court, where he had been in detention over alleged organ haves since from June. The ex-deputy Senate president, in an application by his counsel, Chiva Adeweyga, or Womulu, claimed that the for-feature order was granted to the federal government in error because the EFCC suppressed information and facts in respect of the properties. Specifically, the senator, who has been detained since June 21, 2022, alleged that the EFCC fraudulently obtained the for-feature order for the government by concealing information that the investigation on the 40 properties started as far back as 2008. Ike Kweramadu therefore prayed to the court to set aside the for-feature order and stay proceedings in the matter until he resolves his ordeal before the London Court. However, counsel to the EFCC, Silvado Stahir, denied that the commission was behind Ike Kweramadu's ordeal, while admitting that the EFCC wrote to the London Court based on a special request. He said that it was a normal routine for anti-graft agencies to exchange information that would be helpful to one another. Well, joining us to discuss this is Oladotun Hassan, a legal practitioner and Charles O'Toole, a political analyst. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Well, it's a pleasure to be on your program. Thank you for having me. Good. Let's begin with you, Dotun. Ike Kweramadu is in a faraway land. It sounds like a fairy tale, far, far away in the United Kingdom. And here we are in Nigeria doing what we're doing to him in absentia. He's made to face the law here and is requesting for more time so that he can resolve that issue there in London and come back to the country. Now, this case of Ike Kweramadu, is it such a case that it can be done in absentia? Because maybe some cases are very, very serious that you don't even need the individual to be there and he can be convicted in absentia and all that. What are the kind of cases? Does this one also fall under those kind of cases that can be, that the person can be prosecuted while he's absent? Well, let me first perform a legal record straight. Well, in as much as the London case, we see on average a woman who had abuse, that is the ongoing case in London. And the separate case is pending, that is what's pending before it's a remit in London and all these other issues that came about have been there. So, and the order that ESCC sorted was on the future order of proceed of crime. They believe that the always and every property that was end was at the proceed. And it can be obtained via a court order. Just in order not to dispute those properties or sell it off, the court needs to protect those properties that they suspect to be proceed of crime. It's protected under the ESCC Act to apply in that regard for the protection of such property, there for future order, as well as the ongoing cases. So, in as much as the ways and manner, the introduction of the London case to this matter, to me, I just see it as most ridiculous for anybody to equate ESCC to be behind the London case. The London case is not Nigeria that anybody can sweep anything under the carpet. As simple as we may think, the matter is it's a severe offense in that place. So, it breached the laws of the UK. So, and you cannot expect ESCC to not be the windchant. You know, these are issues we are so overwhelmed in this part of the world that we try to equate everything to be political, even when you commit some case corruption offenses, you still perceive all your predicaments must be weighed on a particular SQ. So, I don't think the claim or the headline, I believe the lawyer should withdraw that. And I think here, Equino Maduro is well learned as well. You shouldn't put up the London case to equate to the ESCC case. Inasmuch as the matter is this subsystem before the court, I would want to prejudice the outcome of the application by his own lawyer. But we should correct the record that corruption cases, as far as it's concerned, they can grant anything in absentia, as far as it is bordering on allegation that revolves around corruption-related issues. And nobody should see ESCC at a windchanting. If you don't commit crime, you will not be pursued in the manner the ESCC is going. And this should stop as a deterrent to all our political leaders that they should not take us for granted. You can see how much of billions is being recovered from the accountant general of the Federation. And that is the person in charge of our budget, our spending, our live wire. So if these people just take us for granted and are the heels of a pinch from the ESCC, they start crying foul. What if the money that the embezzled are used to acquire over 50 houses across the world, we didn't know Abuja and everywhere, those are the monuments for the road construction that people died every day in the Far East, West Road. Those are the money that was meant to build agriculture, build the use of the eastern part of West Road. So, but the fact that we've been embellished in the act of corruption, nobody's trying to call anybody to hold that, they believe it should be a culture. And I think this ESCC is on the right path. And they should go after all that, since there's no such similar criminality tendency. So we cannot continue to reject failure. I would think we are managing a state as a country. We need to have our democracy working. We need to be all standing and we need to support the ESCC to achieve its constitutional impact. Thank you. If we have time, we'll revisit that. You've talked about the fact that ESCC is doing its job and all that. But let me first of all just hear what Charles has to say about this before we revisit the ESCC and the kind of functions and the accusation of a quermado that the ESCC may be complicit or something. Charles, what do you think about this whole thing? Thank you very much. The work Mr. Dottun has deposited is, say lawyer is very correct, the law should always take its full course. And that is what Nigerians have come up for. Just to differ in a way, to say that in the case of the argument by Primaris Lawyer, when I read the lawyer, the SCL, if you can read in between the lines, it appears to him that it is the case of the wish cried in the night and the baby is dying in the morning. Now he cited that Primaris, the ESCC is claiming that this investigation started around 2008. And that since 2008, this is 2022, that is a period well over 12 years. So that for 12 years you were investigating this man, you were concealing information. If you read the lawyer very properly, his argument is his on the fact that information was being conceived by the Commission from even if we're a man of himself. And in that case, just like in the long, long court where a man is being tied, none or in the Nigerian legal systems he oppresses in such a way of manner that one is subsumed innocent until he's proven guilty. That is the import of the laws of our government, the constitution and our laws as it were. But if you look at it, why would we want essentially the ESCC or the courts to get a pre-model and dogged new convincingly, in a way that the facts would be laid and the public would be convinced. The lawyer may appear to be calling the sympathy of the public, but if you look at his argument too, there are some sense in it. The question would be, since 2008 when the ESCC started getting a pre-model, have the Commission been communicating the public on this? Or is it the case of, oh, Bob, the child, Bob, someone's because he's absent? These are the questions that should arise from the disposition of the mother's lawyer. And we shouldn't just maybe think that the lawyer is crying because he wants to protect whatever interest he may have as someone who is handling the matter. So I would like a scenario where the Commission comes out clearly to say, yes, in response, instead of protesting or demonstrating as they are alleged to be doing, the ESCC should come out to say yes. Since 2008, we started this investigation 12 years ago, these are the facts we've laid before the table of the accused. These are the ways we've communicated the facts before going to court to ask for future of those 40 houses. It is ridiculous, really, that we have a brand of politicians who do not look for their children they look for even the people, you know, they just look in the way that, you know, how can somebody have 10 houses in Apuja, for instance? I mean, it's ridiculous, it's crazy, and anybody who hears the number of properties, don't bring about 40 as the ESCC have said. It should worry us that these are public office owners. It should worry us that these are people that have been presiding over Apuja's in the last couple of years that the state has been the president of the Nigerian Senate. So why all this is in place? My own concern is that the ESCC should come out to claim to say, look, we didn't conceal any information. This is how we've communicated our investigations since 2008, because you cannot be investigating someone for instance since 2008. No information is before the public, no information is before anybody. The public is just getting to know all of this, so they are going to have to do that. ESCC is taking advantage of the absence of Ekweremadu to ask for those properties to not only be prohibited, but to be taken over by the federal government. That is my disposition. Okay, well, let me come back to Hasan now. Based on the strength of the argument of Charles just now, there are a lot of things in this case. Now, what if Ekweremadu really does have some evidence in his favor, but he's not around? And people are also very suspicious of the fact that in the Nigerian justice system that a lot of things take so many years, suddenly between June and December, where Ekweremadu has been in London, his case is very fast. He's not here. And then also you talked about EFCC being the ones that will teach these politicians a lesson by showing, by using some of these people as examples. Yes, it's a very good thing. But we also know that EFCC chairman, the immediate past EFCC chairman, is in custody because he himself was corrupt. So is it not possible that maybe Ekweremadu should have been given the benefit of doubt to come defend himself? Why the haste? Even though the case has been there from 2008, why is it now at this point, are the people who are suspicious not justifiable in their suspicion? Well, we don't need to overcry on the issue that borders on law and the procedure of interest that is before the court. Well, there are investigations. Investigations can take a number of years. That doesn't mean it will be later to have been someone to the court for the fact that he's facing one crime and one challenge or the other. Then we should forego the order. What I'm trying to say here is that we shouldn't be over sensationalizing issues. In this part of the world, we are too much over crying on issues that come to the media, cases of popular politicians. Why we forego the fact that these practices of corruption, of believing corruption should be promoted, we need to really think twice as a nation. We cannot continue as a nation to see things from different prisons. People may see it from the prism of ethnic bigotry. Some people may see it from the political point of view that, yes, because the Kurumadu is running as some of his enemies are behind him trying to pull him down. Please, we should learn to think outside the box. So the fact that there is an allegation, it needs to be proven beyond reason without that is guilty. But most of this thing that we are being pursued now are the property. It still has rights of appeal. But for the fact that we know that if a case is already ongoing against the politician, all they do early enough is to withdraw their monies, withdraw their children, sell the properties that they may not even disclose. These are one of the the ailments that we are overhauling about. Where is the morality? When you are coming in, you say, okay, you are declaring your property, you are declaring your assets. At the end of the day, when you are leaving office, you go home with all declared assets that were never the part of what you were known for. And when do you start acquiring those? What would have been the source of your income? How do you really get to acquire those things if there are no symptoms of corruption? So for me, I'm not trying to say that, oh, we are putting the cap before the seahorse. But let us begin to take cognitive interest as citizens. Let's begin to make noise. But the fact that the Quiribadu today, any other person can be tomorrow, it doesn't mean that if it is this person now that we should begin to do because it's ethnic. No, let anybody that is following one thing, let there be a proper procedural investigation. Inasmuch as these are investigations that the ESCC found so worthy, they've only brought an application for the perpetual access. Okay, so Quiribadu still has a chance. It might be eatery before the final perpetual can be gotten. That might be after the judgment of that matter. But because of the protection of those properties, the ESCC needs to do the needsful and they are protected under the law to do that. So inasmuch as the lawyer might be putting out an issue that worked, there are a lot of issues that were never disclosed, that were shielded away from the public. Let the Quiribadu himself through the lawyer, let them tell us what are those issues that were never put before the public. If they are eating facts that we all need to know, let them put it in the fact of complicity from the ESCC officials. Let us know so that we know our common enemies as citizens. People should not begin to take us for granted. We don't hate the Quiribadu as Mr. Quiribadu. But whatever things that would demean our citizens, the ESCC should go after every corrupt politician, everyone that is found wanted and will continue to raise our voices. We know it's not easy because in the same corridors of power, there are a lot of angels of corruption flying and hunting every night and day. And I pray that Nigeria will survive all of that. That is just my prayer. Okay, well thank you so much, gentlemen. This is where we're going to wrap up. It's a term for political olympic, as I like to call it. Every four years it comes and then we hear a lot of things, some of them unbelievable things. But like you have said Hassan, everybody has to sit up and let our voices heard, especially when it comes to fighting for our common good. And also you have said something really very reasonable. Let everybody be given a chance to defend themselves and all that. But here we are, it is our Nigeria and we hope that we can make it as good as we want it to be. Thank you gentlemen for coming on the program tonight. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Robert. So this is where we wrap it up on plus politics, but before we go, we are going to leave you with the highlights of the week. And as you enjoy that, my name is Nyam Ghul at Gadget. Let's do it again on Monday. Bye for now. Have a brand new law, the lecture acts. We're going to try it for the first time, the amendments that demand biometric authentication before that counsels the need for incident form and also counsels the need for the collection center, which is the center where they live in Oklahoma City. So we're changing our country, let us see how it will go. We are quite optimistic that this will help. And that's why you see that you have much more optimistic about the politics that those who believe in transactional politics are the ones who are thinking of the older other. So I think you can be very optimistic about next year and I want all Nigerians to be optimistic to see the letter as something similar to the civil rights act. I want Nigerians to be hoping again that the better Nigeria is possible. The people should be the one not interest, not about you and showing that no, the incoming governor will not understand what is happening and will not be able to achieve his results in case of that. What I see here is politics. People don't want any other successful government or the government that is sourcing them. It's not when they're not in the same party from the same party to succeed so that they will have a positive to also say we want to come back or some other thing. So you need to say, look, we are all working for the state. We are all at our work, whether I am from the PDP or I'm from the APC, what we are fighting for is in the interest of the state. So whatever that would benefit the state should be our interest, should be the paramount in our mind and not politics. And what I see here is politics. So we can get results by way of asking more questions from the outgoing government. They need to come and ask some questions. They need to ask, they need to dig into it and say, look, who are those collecting this money? Are there money being paid? Are there no money being paid? If money are not being paid, then you have to move to different government and say, look, why are these people not paying when they have license from you? Or what is happening? Or are they being given to operate freely? Or what is the issue? The lack of political will from the politicians themselves. Unfortunately, in this dispensation, not just the Mamadwari-led administration, since the turn of democracy, we have not really fed well in the way our politics has been played. We've been playing the politics of do or die. Our politics has not been smooth at all. And somehow, I think it's just this part of the world. We now tell everybody politics is a dirty game. So stay out of it. If you are clean, stay out of it. And so almost it's like a home of criminals. So as it were, it's almost like it's left for terrible personalities to get into the space and do their bit. And somehow, even though that should not be the case, that's what we are seeing. And so people come in there, they steal votes, they pay thugs to create mayhem. And even though their leaders say nothing about this, or even when they say it, it just ends like the holy book will say. It's just lip service. We pay lip service to all of these. And then the security agencies seem to have been compromised. They seem not to be doing anything tangible about it. How many politicians have been prosecuted for electoral violence across the country? Since the turn of democracy till now, lives have been lost. And lives continue to be lost. And nothing seems to be happening. So we need more agencies to come out and talk about this. People need to know that we cannot become canon foders in the hands of these daredevil, some of these daredevil politicians, not all of them. But we know that somehow it's almost like no matter how good your intentions are, the moment you step into the arena called politics, you probably begin to sing a different song. It's almost as though you drink, like we always say, table manners. You begin to eat with criminals. And so you are not supposed to speak while you are eating, while you have the food in your mouth, until you leave the space. But that should not be the case. That should not be the case. We must have to begin to enlighten ourselves, voter education, citizens participation. We must begin to hold ourselves accountable.