 So, this is what I was supposed to discuss with you, I had planned this to be an interactive session, but I think the syllabus part we are more or less confirm what we are going to do, right. Sir, actually yesterday evening also and all the faculty actually discussed and they felt that you are thinking of conducting the workshop for two weeks, all of us felt that probably two weeks would be a very long period if you are looking only at C programming. The reason is they felt that capturing faculty for two weeks to especially we are going to travel from outside and come and stay, it may bring down the numbers because people don't prefer to stop their work and come out for two weeks, that's very difficult. In the month of December? No, even in December because it's vacation, see 80% faculty prefer to take their vacation that is also. The history of human resource development says that it is obligatory for the teachers in engineering colleges to attend so many courses and in fact they are saying that there are not enough workshops of the IST kind that the teachers can attend. I am told that for teachers in engineering colleges attending IST workshop is a requirement towards carrying or accumulating certain points for their promotion and recognition. It may not apply to your institution. All that is there sir but still like I am also the head I have seen the feeling is we have 80% female faculty. So all of them prefer that one week we should spend with our kids and with all these it's very difficult to force people also to go. So sometimes a very long period becomes a drawback, people don't mind for a week but if you expect 15 days of commitment, many people back up for personal reasons. Actually the workshop if you have read my theme paper the commitment was for four weeks not for two weeks. Two weeks they are physically here. The subsequent two weeks they have to go back and do some work. That part will be okay, going back and doing will be okay but No it will not be okay, it doesn't get done. Believe me the moment I go out you look at the best example is the teachers who come to IIT system for doing their PhD program. If they don't finish in three years they say okay I will go back and finish in six months. They take two and a half years more because once you go back to your own respective place whether it is home or your college there are day-to-day requirements that you have to put in and you cannot put aside a time. A group environment is the only conducive way of ensuring that everybody participates in that activity. That is one of the reasons. Secondly in one week I will almost guarantee that out of thousand teachers at least 200 teachers will go back without understanding programming themselves. I can almost guarantee that. I know how much I had to struggle to learn CC++ myself having been a almost operated programmer in the country. I would submit it is not easy. I would submit that the hard problems that we wish to give that teachers must solve themselves, must apply their mind and do it and unless they do it their teaching will not be effective. This is my conviction. Now if you agree with this conviction there is no shortcut. What you are looking at it is from the personal life point of you. Once you decide to become a teacher there is no personal life. We are on duty 24 hours. So I can appreciate this. What I am willing to consider is that originally I had planned that two weeks meant actually Sunday to Sunday. So it is 14 days and 14 nights of rigorous work is what I had planned. I think I can relax it now to say that two weeks but they can occasionally sleep. Sleeping is not a problem. They would even mind working 10 days. Believe me unless they dirty their hands and unless they write complex programs of the kind that we ask. This lady just asked me a program, a simple code which somebody has given. Firstly I sincerely object to somebody setting x minus equal to minus minus x minus x minus minus. What exactly are being achieved is not very clear. It is a very tricky code and by the way I also thought the answer will be 7 but the answer turns out to be 6 and I could figure out why. You are actually changing a part of the variable during the evaluation of the expression. Now what we have to find out is the right hand side being the same location it probably is reflecting that effect. I am sorry for digressing. You have given a neat problem. Now I want our teachers to face 20, 50 such problems in an environment where they are not likely to be criticized by their students. Believe me if I am teaching I put myself in a small place and I am a teacher there. I will be terribly worried about students making comments on my programs. Actually in Bangalore we may not encounter because locally we will capture a lot of the people coming from these small cities. I will tell you even in a small place if only 10 teachers come but they work for 15 days rather than 100 teachers coming working for 7 days the 10 teachers are likely to be more effective when they go back. The idea is to increase their effectiveness. When you take 1000 people statistics will catch up with you. Independent of what you do some people will not benefit. I have a thumb rule I don't know it might apply to all of your places but let me share that with you. Did I share this earlier with you? 20, 60, 20, no. In any organization it applies to teachers. So you take a conglomeration of 100, we have 400 teachers but 20% of the teachers are always self driven. They will work, they will slog, they will learn on their own whatever and they don't need any incentive. You reduce their salary, you don't pay their salary you pay them double their salary whatever they will work. 20% of the teachers won't work any which way. You double their salary whatever, they will come 9 to 5 because somebody here is asking them to sign, they will physically be present whatever they will go to the class, they will teach, they will not change. In fact if anything they will try to ridicule the other 20%, they are pahgal. The 60% people are the cracks. All 60% people want to be recognized for their good work. Also want to escape away with little work if possible. There are simultaneous strains which exist. Now for the organization it is important as to how you can drive this 60% towards those 20%. Wherever whichever institute succeeds in doing that the institute does well. Now given that rule if I have 1000 people we are talking about 200 people of the first variety and 200 people of the last variety and my ambition will be to even make those 200 people at the bottom feel that they are gaining something. So any reduction in time, permit me to say that with my experience will be inadequate, will be inadequate primarily from the practical point of view. You see it is not completion of the syllabus that we are interested in. It is we want them to understand teaching methodology. We want them to experiment with different ideas of teaching the same thing. So that is why the syllabus that I am planning is or the course conduct is broken into two parts. The first part they will be working as if they are students of programming course but they will be given an elevated page because they will be expected to know programming. But believe me the problems that we give them many of them will not be able to solve quickly. That is the purpose. The purpose is not to fail them in evaluation or something but to tell them that life consists of extremely complex problems and that programming will take some time and there is nothing wrong if I make mistakes. But they should be able to solve problems that then only they will be able to face their students more confidently. So there is no shortcut to this. Secondly, the technology that we are adopting, the interaction will not be as we are having here. You saw yesterday the Fiasco. Suppose out of 7 day program, one day is lost like that. Out of 15 days, even after 15 days I cannot afford loss of one. So we have to guard against that. I am seriously thinking after seeing what happened yesterday is to prepare all the delivered lectures ahead of time and send you the DVDs knowing that this lecture, this schedule will be this time. So in the worst case, you put DVDs and start. Master Udhar is speaking in Bombay but this is what he is saying. And we can synchronize with telephone. Telephone works. I mean this is the worst case thing. The point I am trying to make is that two weeks will be required. I will also tell you another point. You mentioned about the teachers, particularly the lady teachers who may be unwilling or whatever. Look at it from their own career perspective. A one week IST course gets them less weightage than a two week IST course. Am I right in that? So towards their own career advancement there will be some. Why do you think I am spending enormous amount of time in convincing IST to have an MOU? They were not at all very keen because they want us to conduct conventional programs. 25 teachers each. They said 25 teachers, we want to conduct 1000 programs in the country. I said 1000 teachers, 25 programs we will conduct. This notion they don't have. So we want, this is also another thing. The first pilot of this type. And I would not like to err on the negative side by which the pilot does not show visible results because then the government will not permit the subsequent. My humble suggestion would be let us do this for two or three courses and see exactly what the effectiveness is. And if we all agree that this is okay, we should continue it for other courses. So this is the suggestion. So two weeks appear harsh but we are sorry. Like now we understand it's very clear for us but it's difficult to convince the people from the local places because the moment they hear computer programming or see language they feel that it's very light and most of them feel that they are masters even though that is not the fact. So it's very difficult to convince them through brochures or websites and we need to clearly state the objective and how it is going to be implemented and what is the real target. So what do we call how to enthuse participants? Right? How do we basically marketing? Yes marketing. Even when we are doing good things we are not able to tell people how good it is but the marketing experts without doing anything they will convince you how great things are being done. This is a challenge. Anybody here is an expert marketing person. Our symbiosis institute should be able to help. You teach marketing, right? Anyway, but I understand this. They feel that what is there to learn for two weeks if we are to see programming. We have to really good in conveying this and we have to do a proper marketing as you said. So it is, we will not call it see programming per se. The name of the whole program will remain effective teaching learning of computer programming. In fact, you know the IST and even others, M-H-R-D and I-C-T, they call these programs Q-I-P program. Quality improvement program. 35 years I have objected to this one. I am a teacher. What you are telling me is your quality is so poor that it needs to be improved. I mean, okay, I may not be as great as somebody else as a noble lord or something but I am a teacher in my own right. Why do you want to use derogatory words? So that is why I do not like the word improvement or whatever it is. It may, in truth we might want to improve things but I think the correct word to be used is what I have used. The enhancement of the effectiveness of teaching and learning. The individual is an incidental thing in the process because unless the individual improves, the enhancement will not happen in college. So do you think even this title, enhancing the effectiveness of teaching, learning of computer programming may still disturb people once they see the details? Because you are the people who have your feet on the ground so you will know how the reception should be. Because you see this is going to happen to all the courses that we plan to run here. We are saying in our proposal to MHRD that the core courses in engineering and science are not understood by students and therefore the increasing effectiveness of that learning teaching is most important. Once the core courses are done well, the other electives and other things people may be able to master relatively easy. Now if you say teachers will say what is there in C programming? If there is nothing, why 25% students are failing? When I teach a course, if 25% students of my class are failing then can I legitimately say there is nothing in C program? So that, but of course these questions and counter questions we ask once they are here. The chicken-eating is they won't be here to listen to all these arguments. Now how do you put forward some arguments in a simplistic form? So the conventional brochure will not do that is first conclusion. In fact we shall discuss some of these things in tomorrow's session when we have a special session on this. Tomorrow also we are talking about this, right? On the actual logistics arrangement for the, because there are so many other issues that we need to discuss. Last time when we had discussed for example, what would be the cost of conducting such thing? So that time hurriedly people had gone and done some calculation and now MHRD which has done elaborate calculation which says no we will stick to the IST norms. Now IST norms are very clearly inadequate. Yesterday I was talking to some colleagues here and they said they have 6 to 8 hours of load shading. Now they can run the workshop but they will have to run a diesel generator for 8 hours and the diesel generator consumes so much diesel per hour. If I have to run it for 8 hours and if I have to run it for 2 weeks then this is the extra cost which my institute may not be able to bear. Now actually after that I had a long discussion and also incidentally I talked to not Ministry of HRD person but Ministry of IT, one senior director. There is nothing to do with this but he also approves funding and things like that and when I was asking him I have this peculiar problem he says fataksab that you can sanction through consumable budget. So it is a very funny situation that for teachers to spend money I have to do it as per some IST 1932 norms 2.50 paisa for breakfast whatever whatever but for diesel I can spend any amount of money. This looks stupid to me, I am still arguing with them Anyway conclusion is that the conventional brochure alone will not be adequate we will have to do something else. If you have any suggestions you are most welcome to mention. But first let us consider this part. Are we frozen on this? We take the syllabus which is essentially C programming I would like to buttress it by the following I would like to say introduction to problem solving and computer programming as a little bit of introduction in first two hours and I would like to conclude by saying the sequence of this particular course such as object oriented programming which may come later that may be useful to certain institutions which are actually teaching both but it is okay if we use the style of teaching this course to teachers which is Professor Ranade's style that we will cover these topics which are actually required to be covered by them but every lecture we will have a problem theme which will be solved using which except for some few minor things that is the style we will keep. My idea is to have half the amount of lectures and half the amount of practically. So we in a day we propose to have we normally is for such workshops it is like a easy kind of thing three hours and three hours we cannot afford that. The normal institute timetable in a college is four hours and four hours right or four hours and three hours. It is four break and three hours. Now three hours is usually lab but for teachers can we afford to have three hours of lab we can do that if the first four hours are broken into two parts so there are two labs actually. So first two hours this is followed by one lab next two hours this is followed by one lab but both the labs will run concurrently for one half hour one half hour in the afternoon or will it be better to break up lecture hours followed by lab again lecture hours followed by lab. The pace will be extremely fast because I propose to cover this entire course as we may call it the syllabus with the teachers participating actually writing programs making submissions exactly as students do we would like to finish this off in the first ten days. So let us put it this way first week we would like to cover majority of the syllabus in the labs because I would like the teachers to do projects we would like to encourage teachers to go back and give group projects to students as a part of this course as a part of internal evaluation. See one of the ideas is not only to encourage to enable teachers to teach their current mechanism effectively the other idea is also to let them think of alternative ways of teaching someday many of these colleges will become autonomous colleges or part of autonomous university someday the university itself may start thinking differently now where are we preparing people for change that is the question and that is where I wanted to roughly divide this entire portion as two-third one-third so for two-third portion we actually cover the course as rigorously as we would expect them to cover for students and for the one-third portion on one hand they are doing a course project kind of thing with the group and on the other hand we are discussing issues related to teaching pedagogy setting up of questions finding out answers and methodology of collaborative contribution to the whole effort so the assignment that they will have to do after going back the coordinators will have to actually look at those assignments when they submit from their own homes later so my suggestion is let's stick to two weeks and let's decide what should be the portion if you agree that this should roughly be the portion that is ten days and five days but we will not put all the working days as heavy as Sunday to something we can put it like Monday to Saturday and even if you want we can keep Saturday, half day or whatever in majority of the places I do not expect people to travel and stay at your institution I would expect them to come in the morning and go back in the evening if it is possible we can leave off both Saturdays and Sundays and conduct it from Monday to Friday in that case is it possible for the entire course to get end by ten days ten working days or should we go for again three weeks then so that also comes no no no we will do it ten days only ten days that is two weeks okay right the total duration is two weeks but their physical presence is required for ten days ten days however will it be okay if we give them some home assignment that is okay on the weekend they can be at home but at least two three hours they will have to work and do some home assignment sure and which they will have to submit Monday morning sure sir the only thing is what happens to the home assignment for week two because that weekend they will be dispersed they can send it through mail they can send it through mail or they can in fact as a matter of fact we are going to set up an extremely strong logical network of us all these people they will be submitting not only to the coordinating institution that will automatically also get updated into a large server which I am going to maintain here and we will have some automatic monitoring procedure as to who has not submitted who has not submitted etc a simplest trick I have found out same thing as students do when there is an evaluation if there are marks people will submit so here we will say that certificates will be sent to you by post after your assignments are received that is a simple way although it is not very good to say that about teachers we should not say in the beginning maybe after after giving the assignment anyway but that is a minor point so basically what you are suggesting is I should plan all the contents lab and everything including the effectiveness and teaching mechanism including other things including the discussion on the collaborative content generation etc in ten working days that will give us a little bit more time for the first week Monday to Friday second week Monday to Saturday because after that anyway they are going to disperse so we will have one more day for our planning the problem is those people who locally travel or come from nearby places Monday to Friday is an extremely good thing but suppose somebody has travelled and come to stay with you then that Saturday Sunday he or she would have been delighted to have colleagues they are doing work simultaneously now you are all running away leaving me alone here that is also the worry actually in the second week we can give short assignments every day every day you can give a short assignment to be done from home if it is not very long, half an hour, one hour one can think after going home it is not a big issue when you are sitting in a training program how many people do you expect to be wanting to be away on the weekend a very large number of, very large percentage of people because you see if you consider the time 20, sorry 15 to 30th December whatever planning there is a Christmas vacation in between that is 25th are you suggesting that people will refuse to work on 25th? logistics also in the college is sometimes a problem because suppose we have some no it may not be if they are coming on their own and going back on their own but in Amrita we will not have but I don't know about the local there could be a problem 25th is Friday so in that case my suggestion is first week, why can't we have it Monday to Saturday and second week we close on Thursday that is better sir close it before Christmas that week we can still call it, I am worried about IST asking me questions how can you give two week certificate okay ultimately if you do all this teachers come they will learn something but at the end if they don't get that two week certificate they are going to shout that you have got this don't forget that what we are planning in that MOU we are writing is that the IST certificate will be given jointly by IIT and the coordinating institution so each one of you or whosoever is your colleague who will coordinate this course will have to sign as coordinate on that certificate along with me or whosoever is coordinator from here and that's a burden on your head if they don't get that certificate can we start around 10th and finish it before 25th? no 10th is not possible can we start on this Sunday? we can actually no it will not work okay then why not we do it Monday through Thursday with a possible break on Sunday in between but totally 10 working days as far as the workshop is concerned so this is 11 days and then we can 10 working days IST is happy and we should be able to in fact this is better because after 25th again calling them for Monday or something whatever and then people will get into a new year celebration mood and whatever psychologically that will not be conducive now for out station candidates calling them and making them said idle is not worth it I agree and my objection that some individuals who will stay back on Sunday they will not feel bad if they stay back alone only for one day one day yeah one day is okay by unanimous agreement do we freeze these days yes yes Kalpana please note but as far as our brochures in all concern we will call it two weeks course because that wording is important for our friend Hariyarandheer sir how is the publicity we done yes from the IIT or from our universities make suggestions we are very bad at publicity we don't mind doing it I don't know about other colleges why not we do all of us together but we will give the brochures in those brochures we will list all the names of the centers which are participating and their email IDs or whatever we will give our brochures we will open up the registration site here we can even say preliminary registrations immediately now we will mail you sufficient copies of these brochures these brochures will take at least 15 days to get ready but that's okay by middle of October if you get the brochures would you be able to additionally send them our problem is I had addresses of about 2,000 colleges at one time and when we actually sent physical letters to the addresses which we had about 30% did not reach them so we don't have sufficient addresses will you have contact details of the colleges around you okay so if we can if we can take this upon ourselves Kalpana so on the action agenda item we will say that all colleagues after going back because we will take 15 days to get the brochures ready anyway over the next 15 days as many college addresses with a particular contact person's name email ID if they can get then we can ensure the following apart from you we will also send all the brochures to them I will write a letter to the principal or the director and meanwhile you can also follow it up by talking to the corresponding team it's good if it is directly going to the colleges no it will go directly to the colleges but additionally we will also send you additional forms what happens when I send something directly to the college it will be addressed to the director okay the director will quietly keep it on his table or will he say okay mark it to head such and such department and the movement of that paper to percolating down to the individual who is actually likely to be interested I don't know how long it takes depends some places it will happen quickly some places it will not so my suggestion is to fold yes we do it we send it to all the people and we will inform you to whom all we have sent so you know exactly which colleges it has gone if there is any correction in address you want to suggest you can do that but if you to begin with give us some addresses that would be nice so let us put some target date say brochures to be ready by whatever say about 17th October ready by 17th October so it is less than less than 17 not equal to okay so the week after that the posting will happen about 5 to 6 days you can say all people will have these brochures now around the same time if you can also start pursuing this and we will make the preliminary registration Karthikar is here but Swathi is here so what we want is a preliminary registration site for the larger workshop where they should mention the centre at which they wish to attack and ordinarily the list is visible in terms of only the total number of people but if the list could be visible also as sorted on centres so normally list visible as people have registered but some click I do and the same list is transformed into sorted by centres the point is Koyantur will know how many people are registered today Surat will know how many people are registered yesterday and they can monitor the progress of registration for each of the centres so you can sort of take care of these things now I also want to know what is the maximum number of teachers that you can accommodate in your centres this is the other way around assume that there is a huge number of people who want to attack then what do we do there is only one stipulation from IST that if the number is more than 30 or 35 then there should be two coordinators appointed so we will treat this as two courses of 30 each means the same college is arranging that the physical arrangement is same the lecture can be at single place but there should be two coordinators and technically if there are two labs not necessarily two physically separate lab but two different set of people looking after them because the costing that we have done is assuming around 30 to 35 people per batch that is the batch size for the total budget that we have so one suggestion I have here because we were looking at that 60% faculty who will look for the credit the organising college only the coordinator will not do much task see we will have to suppose we have to help in the labs we will have a team of 4-5 of our own faculty whom we will give all the assignments and they will actually help the 60 so some certificate if it can be issued for those people because then they get a recognition of having participated in the activity what happens when you organise an IST course in your organisation we have never organised till now no no participants certificates for teachers who participate organisers certificate exactly please feel free to give organisers certificate from our level or from something from your I can do that I think that will be good because that motivates them to contribute my own idea was that this certification should be done jointly IIT Bombay and IIT should organise so for example Nandhe arranges this or Rambhavati arranges this or Bangalore or Coimbatore or Surat or whatever whosoever is the coordinator from Surat and whosoever is the coordinator from here those two names should be there and what we will do is we will print two types of certificate one is the participating teacher for two weeks and other is for organisational support which would be given to local people all the names that you send I will just enter I will do something better which is not considered correct here I will sign some blank certificate and send them but I will count say 10 or 5 or 8 or whatever now whenever you put the names there you have to inform me that these have been used and the others are written back the certificates that IST considers something I don't know why something great or important or whatever because there is a logistic issuing those certificates but is that okay that will help sorry for telling it so instead of providing the certificate the supporting people will look for renumeration that is very important concern over there IST has the provision what about us that is the thing so that separation also we want to intimate actually I have used the word staff very loosely it includes everybody from director of your institute to attendant okay so now do you have any figures which I can use to do some bin counting so what should be for example you said 10 days so 10 days of lectures plus lab now typically what is the kind of remuneration I would recommend for let's say technical staff which supports for the faculty members who participate in setting up the lab and conducting it and for the coordinator if I have some quick figures we can do some quick addition because this has been the dilemma I don't have any figures IST does not distinguish like they have given a list Kalpana they have given a list right the list of remuneration etc. I read somewhere 12 rupees for an hour or something for doing this it looks very stupid to me I don't know I feel the IST has to change its ways significantly but whatever it is you must be conducting some QIP programs or something like that in IST they will give for coordinator around 1500 two weeks course two weeks two weeks but what is the thing is coordinator 1500 what is the thing is what is the thing is the lecture was also support by renumeration those who are taking lectures we will give some renumeration for it but lectures are going to be given from here who should we give lectures we will give them honorarium and similarly supporting people but labs people will have to be supporting that yes before that teaching staff they will give per session 500 rupees session is one and half hours one and half hours session per session yes sir one and half hours for a technical 150 yeah this is the lab assistant I didn't figure out it sir but normally it will be above 150 150 per session same per session let's do some simple arithmetic session yeah I have said per session only I am saying session is one and half hours yes sir so let's do some quick calculations if we have to run let's say lab let's assume a median of 30 people so in one lab 30 to 35 people how many you will have at least one teaching staff and two teaching staff and technical staff basically the technical staff is one which ensures that the setup has been done software has been installed and if there is a problem that problem is resolved it's like our sysad means right yeah but employment is okay they should continue to get their regular salary but this is something extra that they are doing you call them on Saturday ordinarily they will be hesitant you call them early morning you have to ask them to wait or something like that you can't see why people should not make some extra money if they are just showing additional sincerity and commitment so that is why I was asking if you take 150 per session no no which item you are talking about let me say one two and three no no that's okay this per session we are talking about per session 600 they are saying less let me put it grossly as rupees 500 per day it appears to be a round figure 600 there is no justification okay now I will tell you because the lectures will be conducted from here we are talking about three lab hours so one and half hour one hour one and half hour so there will be two sessions per day so basically we are saying two sessions per day into 10 days here also we are saying two sessions per day into 10 days and we are saying 10 days here now if we do some arithmetic can someone help I can't add without computers this one is simple 5000 this one is 20 into 150 sorry 2000 into 2 clerical stuff here I and Kalpana do all the clerical work let's first consolidate this and let's see what other thing is required I think you can make it 250 sir 250 per session yes sir ultimately I will tell you what he is trying to do he is trying to make the whole proposal so infeasible that all teachers will have holidays throughout December no I will tell you why I am telling this maybe technical staff it's okay no no just one minute teaching staff it will amount to say 10000 or we will have to keep so many faculty on different sessions there will be big politics in whom the head assigns them if you have too much of amount my faculty will say she gave chance to her friends what 10000 rupees you mean yes it happens see now it is like one session is 1000 rupees 3 hours one day suppose I appoint a team of 2 faculty only doing whom I or a 3 they will end up earning 3000-1000 rupees out of it now the people will say who should be appointed there are people who look for money they should know C programming I don't want a heat engines expert just because of the money coming in okay that's okay anyway we can put right now let's do this computation we may have to tune it up or down because the total figures have to match finally but what you are suggesting is we should make this 250 he has so this is 500 into 10 is 5000 so this is also 5000 into 2 is that so I am just talking per staff here it is for the whole day here it is for 3 hours that's the difference and here per person it will amount to 10000 and the coordinator so now I will just add these and multiply it by 2 I think let us make it 3000 years okay I mean give or take 500000 rupees you think these figures are reasonable now if I have to spend 43000 rupees in the effective conduct support these people's cost you also said you should like to have one attendant or one whatever a clerk or something like that let me put it this way an attendant may be required to open the facility and close the facility in time and thing like that a clerk may be required to maintain the records but that is not an activity which is related to number of days or number of sessions that's a gross activity let us put some figure for that activity here which is a consolidated thing like we said coordinator is a consolidated activity it is not this day or that day in fact the coordinator is the one believe me who will end up slogging maximum but that's life okay frankly anybody who is a coordinator here is doing it for 3000 rupees is something wrong with either the coordinator or with us whatever we are getting from ISTA from ISTA and all minimum 6000 rupees is there and one more doubt I have like technical stop so obviously we are going to use a TA teaching assistant so those are M.Tech guys so I have one doubt what about those guys you can pay them same amount we pay them exactly and one more doubt is because they are working and they are going to help a lot so I need some some sort of certification for them also for whom? for those TA's teaching assistants those who are going to work yeah so we will be paying them no not ISTA those are the M.Tech students no no you use either staff or you use M.Tech students I am going to use M.Tech because I cannot call my professors no no I am talking actually you are talking about technical staff technical staff for lab we have we have provision for two okay sir I am saying is this is roughly we are using it for purpose of calculation okay the coordinator has full freedom to do exactly what the coordinator proposes to do okay see I personally would have no problem if the coordinator opens up the gate runs the e-learning facility conducts tutorials and takes this entire money absolutely no problem I also have no problem if the coordinator and some teachers decide they will run the whole thing I have no problem if you are competent technical staff who run the whole tutorial I have no problem if one person does the work instead of five people I believe in autonomic if you are my coordinator then you decide but I tell you the problem you will have problems if nothing is specified because you are head of the institution your other colleagues the politics that she mentioned all of these will work on you so please use me to solve your problems and I am willing to write different letters to different institutions I am very shameless my objective is to get these thousand teachers transform from whatever they are to that plus data that's all nothing extraordinary I expect so we will have this flexibility I am just trying to compute now per participant how much is the expenditure that you will have to incur for a 10 day workshop