 Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh dear respected brothers and sisters and welcome to another episode of Live in London with Dr. Said Amman Akshwani. Now tonight's topic is a topic of pedophilia and child abuse. These two are two very important issues that we generally fail to talk about within our communities. Pedophilia is defined as having or showing sexual feelings towards children. Unfortunately these issues aren't just issues that are within the Muslim community but rather these are issues that affect humanity on a global scale. A lot of people may go through these unfortunate circumstances but are worried to raise their voice against the injustice done to them. For example we have family members sexually abusing each other, we have religious clergymen that may be involved in these things or even people within high statuses and authorities or with a lot of fame behind them who are involved in these things. Now the person, the victim of these abuses might think to themselves or rather believe within themselves that they lack the courage or confidence to be able to seek justice against these people that they think who are untouchable. Within Islam especially of those of us who live and reside in the West we are often faced with questions or slander even around these issues. For example questions such as did the Prophet really marry a 9 year old girl, is it actually permitted in Islam to have physical relations with an infant child or how far can a parent actually go to discipline their child? Sayyidna, salam alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Thank you for joining us once again and blessing us with your visit. Sayyidna, does Islam give us a sexual ethical guideline to help us through life and if so what are the pluses and drawbacks from this? Well if the religion of Islam claims to be a way of life then it has to be able to discuss pertinent issues related to one's sexual life. At the end of the day the human being, part of their existence, part of their survival involves their sexual desires. As much as there is a yearning to eat, there is a yearning to be involved in a sexual relation. You find that when you look at Islamic ethics generally there are certain neutral desires that exist. Eating food is a neutral desire, you don't say it's good to eat food or it's bad to eat food. But an ethical system seeks to direct that neutral desire into that which is gaining you closeness towards your Lord, helping you become more spiritually disciplined. So if we were to say for example eating food is a neutral desire, the religion of Islam will still provide you with guidance ethically how to eat, when to eat, when to abstain from eating. A month where you take a rest for example like the holy month of Ramadan. Likewise when it comes to sexual desires. The religion of Islam recognizes sexual desire as a neutral desire meaning that it's a desire which you can't say is good or bad but we the human being can either channel it towards that which is good or towards that which is bad. So for example we the human being can take the religion of Islam towards that which for example is in a positive light where the aim is for example to procreate in a healthy marital relationship and so on or we can take it towards the wrong way. For example in an adulterous affair which is seen as being one of the greatest sins in the religion of Islam. So you find that Islam no doubt has a lot of discussions on sexual ethics, on sexual desires, on the dangers of our sexual desires. If a person allows the animal in them to take over the divine spirit that God has breathed into them then there's no limit to where these sexual desires can take you and there's no limit to the destruction that can be caused because of these sexual desires. There is absolutely no limit. I always remember for example the Holy Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his family talking about how the worst of the killers of the ancients was the killer of the camel of Prophet Saleh. And the worst of the killers of the latter he said will be the killer of Ali ibn i-Talib. And you witness both of them end up killing this Prophet known as Saleh or this saint known as Ali they kill them because their sexual desires had such an overload that they've been promised that it will be fulfilled if they kill another human being. The Prophet Yahya John the Baptist was killed because of a king who had an overflow of sexual desire wanting to marry his niece knowing it's not permissible getting the law through knowing the only person who was gonna get in the way was Prophet Yahya and he found a way in which he wanted Yahya killed. So we've witnessed in history how the overflow of sexual desires if it's not controlled can cause destruction in society. Now this area of pedophilia and child abuse is a very difficult area to discuss for a number of reasons and there's so many different sciences which are intermingling in the discussion psychology ethics law all of these work hand in hand in the discussion on pedophilia and sexual abuse sadly in our communities I don't think you'd hardly ever hear a lecture related to this area even though the prevalence of pedophilia is unbelievable at the moment in the world we live in as in it's disgusting how many YouTube videos there are which discuss openly how they capture these pedophiles from the internet and these are regular lads who live in the UK who'll capture these pedophiles on the internet pretending that they are you know a minor and these guys will come and you'll see them and they've actually come with the intention of having sexual intercourse with this minor and this is occurring not just you know on the videos that we see in YouTube they're the ones where it comes I'm public with this is occurring even within our communities there are fathers who have sexually abused their daughters their daughters have to get married have to remain in silence for years because of a number of reasons either they don't want to ruin their future or they don't want to ruin their mom's future so they remain in silence even though they know that an abuse has taken place on them and believe you me the number of emails I've received imagine the number of emails I've received of people who have been victims of sexual abuse as minors in our community and these victims of sexual abuse cannot speak to anyone and they may email me but most of the time it's probably gonna be an anonymous email and they'll email me because there is no recourse for help there's no one out there to speak for them now I don't think legally we said psychology is one thing you're worried is there anyone out there to help me who's gonna blame me who's gonna listen to me should I speak out legally I think there is also a problem because in many cases the Islamic legal system is based upon 6th 7th 8th century Middle East the Arabs had their own cultural norms their own environment their own climate the Romans had theirs in their time the Greeks had theirs there were certain things which would not have necessarily been seen as taboo at that time which now we look back on and we think no way would we do that you know if you now said that for example there was a certain time where were men would all sit in public baths naked and discuss the political affairs of a city literally in the nude you'll be like that's disgusting there was a certain time in certain empires where was normal to sit in these bath houses and discuss the future of the Republic or the Empire fully naked without even thinking twice about the ethics of it Greece has their own culture Rome has its own culture China had its own culture Persia had its own culture the Arabs likewise Islam does come to them but I think that there are certain things which Islam cannot necessarily abolish straight away or Islam can work on but the reform process is going to be quite slow or there is a legal system that until today we're studying in the 21st century in our seminaries where only a few clerics have had it in them to come out and say that is wrong no more and that's a problem because whether Muslims like it or we don't I remember inviting a good friend of ours professor Haidar Hammoudi I invited him while chair of Shia studies at Hartford seminary and when I invited him he presented a fantastic seminar on sexual ethics in Shia law and he showed us the unbelievable issues of controversy that exist within the Shia legal system when it comes to whether you could propose for a minor and the debates concerning the menstrual cycle of one who's still a minor you know you've got these issues and other issues of what's your relationship like if you propose to someone they've accepted the proposal but you two still haven't lived together how far can you go in your intimacy and when I was looking at this and he presented the paper fantastically and you know for the viewers if you contact professor Hammoudi at Pittsburgh if I'm not mistaken there's a brilliant brilliant presentation from this law scholar and he highlighted to us that in in Shia as well as the sexual chapters of ethics in other schools of Islam and the chapters of law normally known as Kitab in Nikah there would be a whole section called Kitab in Nikah you'll find some things which I think today if they were to come out in London or to come out in America would be seen as being horrific now that's where other maxims of jurisprudence now have to emerge and that's why you've got law the principles of law psychology ethics all intertwined into this discussion concerning what may be construed within Islam as still being a religion that may speak out against the issue of marrying someone young but may not necessarily have abolished it completely yeah okay so following on from your point of bringing these maximum clergymen forward to abolish these rulings often someone might come and say to play the devil's advocate it's these clergymen that are predominantly found to be partaking in these activities or it's you know whether it's Catholic priests or within the Islamic schools or scholars in Najaf, Qom, Mashhad etc who partake in these activities why would they then come out and say we need to abolish these etc you're absolutely right in saying that there are a number of people who claim to be men of God who turned out to be known pedophiles and child molesters I think no religion has been hit as hard as Christianity on this issue the Catholic Church is under intense scrutiny today because many people feel that years of abuse of kids has gone without the correct amount of righteous indignation against this act that turn the other cheek is one thing but there's also righteous indignation there is a right for someone to speak out against the atrocities that many children in Europe let alone around the world but in Europe especially had to go through from people who claim to be working on behalf of Christ that's why Islam was so against celibacy Islam is a religion sex I think sometimes you know non-Muslims say you guys love sex too much because whenever they hear about you know oh the Quran allows for wives although the Bible is quite proud of mentioning God's messengers who had a few hundred but they say that you people are you know sex mad okay Christianity as a religion said celibacy is the way forward but Islam said this is not something natural to keep away from sex doesn't make you someone who gets closer to God suppression is not the way it's discipline it's not suppression it's a person trying to find us a certain amount of balance in terms of these acts so and the Quran refers to this when it says that it was a sort of monasticism that they innovated you know it this is not the monasticism of getting closer to God because you know some early Muslims they say we'll stay away from sex and perfume and meat and the Prophet Muhammad came down harshly on them when Muhammad said that I am someone who's with my wives I'm someone who loves and even does not mind extravagance when it comes to perfume it's sad when you go to some of our centers today and you smell people and you wonder if that person's ever put any perfume on or any deodorant and so on and then the third area being meat so it's Islam was against celibacy the Christian the Catholic Church sadly for years ended up having priests who are known pedophiles and known child molesters and I'm not just gonna say it's Christianity listen every religion in this world and people of no faith in one way or the other you'll find cases where they been involved in child molestation I'll give you an example recently there was an investigation that was done which shows you it's got nothing to do with religion only there was a case that was done about football coaches where when you were in the youth team some of the best football players were abused sexually and could not speak out for years where one of their coaches would say and this was also in America when it came to American football where there was people who were abusing boys pedophilia and child molestation for years and no one could utter a word from those boys and some of them went into depression and so on because of what took place now the difference when it comes to religion is that that child trusts the religious figure as a man of God that child completely believes when that person says I'll look after your prayers I'll look after your sustenance I'll pray to God for you so the sad thing about religious figures who do this I heard that up north in the Yorkshire area that there were Quran teachers of Pakistani origin who had abused kids for years and I tell you that in some of our countries there are people who claim to teach Quran to these children who abused and abused for years and I only found out in their 70s or 80s because those kids when they grow older so I want to get married have kids don't want to admit because you know the whole community will know what's happened to you and that will cause other issues as well so sadly no one can deny there are people who are just like but they are not the ones who write the laws or represent those who are the highest of figures are normally seen as the people of ethics and they're the ones who the onus is on them to be able to come out with statements making sure that we do not oppress or allow for this oppression to take place yeah so you mentioned these are people of God people who follow religious law now there are a lot of people come and say that the you know from from the neo-nazi or right wing extremists that the prophet was a pedophile of some sort for marrying a nine-year-old girl what would you say in response to that from them if he's a man of God and he's gone and done something like this what would what could a Muslim respond to an accusation like that well firstly I'm not gonna sit here and apologetically deny that there were acts by prophets of God either in the Quran or in the Bible which we could all question sitting with 2020 hindsight vision now looking back if you look in the Bible for example when a Christian comes and tells me or you mentioned neo whatever their name is come and says to me that the prophet Muhammad's a pedophile well you know lot was a man who was incestual Noah was a drunkard David kills make sure that his generals killed so he can commit adultery with the wife that's not exactly the most moral people in the world when we come to the prophet Muhammad I'm not gonna deny that the prophet Muhammad and others in Arabia were marrying girls who are 10 years of age 11 years of age 12 years of age I don't think that before that there was even a taboo on this where you find for example Mary mother of Christ God decides to give her a child when she's 12 and many Christians will not mention this that God decides you know what Mary the 12 year old is where I'll give my greatest son 12 years old God got no husband and you decide yes let's pick a 12 year old but no one ever talks about that when it comes to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family I certainly do not take and I've said on shows before I don't take these narrations that he saw a six-year-old girl playing on the swing and then he decided you know what come home this is the one I want to marry I certainly don't take any of that but if you're looking within our narrations yes any mom I leave them at all when he marries father with his daughter father with his daughter is not older than 10 when he ma'am I leave them at all in Marisa say the same about her daughter when she gets married it's not older than 10 11 in Arabian society that was the norm and it wasn't a case of this person who's going undercover behind closed doors what's a pedophile you can look at definition of the pedophile person's only attraction it's towards children of yeah some they say you know some like adults and children you're talking a major definition is related to those who want the children cannot go to the children because of the fact that you know it's a society that will find this act atrocious and this person will do it behind closed doors and there's also gonna be an abuse of that child it's not just gonna be it's sex without for example any there's no love there there's no nothing it really becomes a case this is my sex slave and I'll torture this person some of them have gone to barbaric lengths you're looking in Arabia there is no who are raised at the time it's a very public event a public way we're talking different cultures that's why the beginning of the show I'm saying that an Arabian society there was no who are when the Prophet Muhammad for example marries this girl at the age of 10 or 11 does that mean because the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family marries someone that age that that should become the norm for the whole community this some this is a point that has to be discussed you can't pick one of the marriages of the Prophet Muhammad and say well that's the norm because likewise if you're saying say the Khadija who he married her is older than him why don't Muslims for example why don't people discuss the fact that while in many societies people would not marry those who are widows he married widows while many would not marry those who are divorced while many would not marry those for example who you find as being older the Prophet Muhammad marries a widow from Muhammad marries a divorcee Prophet Muhammad marries that though the one who is a few years let's say older than him so it's not the norm that the Prophet Muhammad secretly gone off and married this nine-year-old kid ten-year-old kid nobody knows about this is a really secret thing her dad finds out and gets really angry on the contrary the dad is involved in the proposal pedophiles will pray on those people who without wanting the dad or the mom to have a clue about what's going on unless you have a really sordid mother or father Abu Bakr is the one who's come to ask the Prophet Muhammad that would be an honor for him to have married his daughter and if you look at Aisha which led a few people by the way to say that you know what she's older and they try and show different arguments and I've seen both sides and both of them have got plausible weight and all honesty that she may have been 14 or 18 but let's go let's say she is 10 or 11 when he marries her you look at Aisha's maturity in her early years and the sense when I say maturity someone will say well physically she might not be mature but tell you what the way she's talking she's virtually able to control the whole house she's able to debate other wives which she has she's able to raise her voice against his daughter all this is happening from someone who doesn't seem like there you know there's someone who doesn't know what's happening in the world in Iraq we have a saying where we say she'll take you to the river and bring you back thirsty and so Muslims out there yes in their worldview because they're not in 6th 7th century Arabia it's very difficult to comprehend what's happening because today if you have a 57 year old man for example or you have a 54 year old man as he was when he married Aisha is marrying this 10 11 year old I cannot disagree when I say that today if I were to hear such a thing nah but when I'm looking at the annals of history I find the Christianity of today may have certain moral compasses which are different from the biblical prophets they may admire as being God's chosen servants or not the whole moral compass but rather what's culturally accepted what's not is the climate we live in the same or not even climate has a bearing on adolescents so when we're looking at the Prophet Muhammad and this issue the context of what's the definition of pedophilia versus what takes place with the Prophet Muhammad there's too many different points which are there of course I guess we always have to look at the context in every situation and I guess something you said on the early nights that I've learned from you is just because Islam says it's okay to do something doesn't mean you have to go and do it so going on from the topic of context a lot of people come with the verse in the holy Quran from Al-Talak verse number four and they say that this this shows that the menstruation of a woman if she's not in the menstrual cycle you can do other things with her what's the context of this verse what do you derive from this scenario well Sura 60 you're referring to the verse in Sura Al-Talak verse number four that was that was an interesting verse Sura Al-Talak refers to divorce it's very interesting how many Muslims will ask me questions concerning divorce and yet many have not read the Sura called divorce there's a whole Sura called divorce now it's a very interesting verse Oba Ibn Ka'ab asks the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family he asks him that there are certain categories of woman he wants to know about their waiting period the number of menstrual cycles for them so for example the divorcee the widow the one who's reached men are poor and so on and what's interesting in the verse is that there is a certain amount of uncertainty for each category not uncertainty as to the law but uncertainty as to whether you know as the men are poor as reached has it not reached is the person you know you may be someone who for example may have passed the age of nine but you still may not have seen these cycles come to you yet maybe come at 13 or 14 or 16 so some people straight away look at that and say the part of the verse which talks about let's say for example the one who is of old age we can understand the widow we can understand the divorcee we can understand but who's the one who's talking about who have you know who've got an ida period awaiting periods who the menstrual cycle is not or the Monday cycles not affected now are you telling me that there is someone who still has not been a biologically affected by this but they've got married and now there's a ida period some say that could only point to the fact that Islam allowed marriage with minors I cannot deny that in Arabia it was normal for a person to say my son will marry my brother's daughter for example and they decide this for example while they're minors at the age of six seven eight but doesn't mean they consummate the marriage even I think I'm on wants his daughter for Imam Al Jawad alaihi salam consummation doesn't take place straight away even the sonia opinion about Aisha with the Prophet peace be upon his family is that okay the agreement may take a place but they coming together was years later so can we say that in in certain Islamic legal schools a person may be able to have a marriage agreement in principle with a minor I would say if you're looking at the traditions I think there is evidence for that in different schools in the religion of Islam there's always these stipulations however they are also made that if this is of harm to her physically socially then do not allow these things you may have been an Arabian society where it was seen as a norm for you to say well you know what my son is gonna marry his third cousin and you know this happens in our families when we were younger he's gonna marry her she's gonna marry him but not in agreement people are joking about it but in those days no it was something to be agreed upon then when they reach adolescence now someone may reach the age of an let's say some scholar said an adolescent girl in Islam is when she's how old nine you have others who said no maybe you got going towards 12 13 there's not one agreed upon opinion by all the Maraja on the age of for the female some said nine others went up to 13 even and if we were to say that yes we agreed that in the time of the Prophet Muhammad when this verse is being revealed marrying a 10-year-old marrying a 11-year-old was something normal that doesn't necessarily mean that that person has had their monthly cycle come upon them yet so you may have been involved with the person but doesn't mean that that monthly cycle may have come upon them yet and they would have to wait because if they want to move on for example someone else you never know maybe in that waiting period you might find you might find that the cycle happens then you get married to someone then you get pregnant with that person then the other person says how do I know that's not my child so there's all of these issues that come up within that one verse however once again I go back and I say that in our legal textbooks can I be frank enough to say that there are discussions not laws remember when you're studying any any area of law you're looking at methodology or you're looking at theory or you're looking at clear legal instruction yes I will admit that within the Islamic tradition in methodological and theoretical discussions of marriage the minor is included at marriage to a minor does that mean that it's something legally accepted you can consummate there's a consummation for example you'll have schools of Islam which are clear that when the persons of adolescence that's when consummation takes place however the word being given in principle could that be seen as something that is there I don't think a person can deny that it is there within the Islamic literature however looking at the world that we live in today and taking the jurisprudential maxim that there should be no harm to the image of Islam such things bring harm to the image whether we like it or we don't you could come all day and say to me that in Arabia such an act was being practiced today such an act as they try to pass in the Iraqi there was a discussion in Iraqi politics three years ago if I'm not mistaken the Fadila party and they had discussed about you know the age of marriage being nine there was upro upro within Iraq and upro outside of Iraq from human rights groups because whenever you hear the age of nine today a girl getting married off are you telling me in the world that we live in today she's physically or emotionally mature enough to get married off at that age countries are I'm not going to deny that the United States only a few years ago there were still parts of the United States where the legal age for marriage was as young as 12 don't think that Islam 1000 years ago and that the West today did not have such a concept in the United States only up until a few years ago there were states where the legal age was 12 some 14 some 15 but today's time I believe that accepting this to become the norm is very difficult so would you say people had these if I can call them arranged marriages maybe for the sake of land or for the sake of wealth or a change in status family name etc I think that's what I think that's where the scholar stipulation comes in that makes sure this does not is not something which is harmful to your daughter meaning don't be a greedy person don't be a selfish person your daughter has feelings don't be someone who's like well you know what you're gonna have to marry so-and-so because so-and-so is wealthy that's all you know there's no concern about the feelings I think the holy prophet peace be upon his family even even though the Arabs are having these marriage and principles that arrange marriages when father Zahra alaihi salam wants to marry ma'am Ali and she's only 10 at the time or even younger when she wants to marry Imam Ali bin Talb alaihi salam the prophet asks her that there's been this proposal that's come to you from for example Abu Bakr proposed Omar bin Al Khattab proposed Abdel Rahman bin Auf proposed all of them proposed it's very interesting that you'd think that this person would not have a clue what's going on and on the contrary this lady being a model exemplar you know she's not interested in anyone Ali bin Talb comes her silence was a sign of her approval but the prophet Muhammad said that I have to ask Fatima it wasn't a case of you know what well you know what I think you're suitable the Arabs did have a tendency to give their daughters away to someone who was going to give a high dowry because they were interested in taking the dowry in their own pocket however islam wanted to come and change this whole system where your greed or your selfishness is the reason you're marrying off your daughter and not consent from the girl yeah inshallah thank you very much Sayyid thank you to the viewers watching from home we will be taking a short break and in the second part we'll be looking specifically more closely at the topic of child abuse inshallah and we'll also be taking your calls in either directly by ringing the number on the screen or via facebook or sending a message through whatsapp on the number we look forward to seeing you after the break thank you very much thank you for joining us after the break we are again joined by Dr Sayed Amman Akshwani discussing tonight's topic of pedophilia and child abuse in the first part of the show we looked closely into the topic of pedophilia in the second part of this show we'll be looking at the topics of child abuse and inshallah if you have any questions you'd like to put through to the Sayyid you can do so by ringing the number on your screen that's 07 939 917 163 or alternatively you can send in your messages via facebook or sending a whatsapp message to the number on your screen so Sayyid no in islam we're taught to be gentle with our children and we're given the example of the holy prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and how he would you know look after the children play with them hold them close embrace them like he did with Imam Hassan and Imam sallallahu alaihi wa sallam is this how we're meant to bring up our children or are there other ways yeah it's very sad today when i hear so many stories of children who are physically and emotionally abused in their houses you know there are so many children out there who are beaten black and blue in their respective houses and their fathers do regret what they've done years later but that boy by that time has has developed in some cases insecurity that girl has developed a hatred against the world that they were brought up in and imagine from the physical abuse for example of being beaten or being hit to that worst level which is you know the sexual abuse of children in households you know where there are fathers who have molested their children and no one can say a word you know it's hard for the children and when you look at the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family he sees arabia as being very cold with their kids some of them had buried their daughters alive and continued to live comfortably after that and really the most ignorant nation is a nation that finds it normal to bury its child you know there's no heart there anymore when you find it normal to take your child and just literally hit them as they would with their spades they'd smash their heads and just bury them in the ground and so what he does quite wonderfully with his own children you know some call them grandchildren but as for the eye of Abna Hassan and Hussein he publicly hugs them and one of his companions comes to him he says you actually hug them he's like yeah he goes i got 10 kids i don't hug any of them so he wants to display this affection he calls Fatima the young Fatima the mother of her father he stands up for her when she walks into the room these are all indicators to us about the way that these children are a form of rizq a form of sustenance from Allah subhanu wa ta'ala to us there are families out there who could never have a child in this world so when you do have a child God expects you to look after that piece of sustenance that's in your house that's a trial from Allah subhanu wa ta'ala but when i have met some of our youth who went off the rails one of the first reasons when you ask them about their relationship with their father for example it's the relationship of so many slaps so many hits so many belts rather than a relationship of sitting and discussing and dialogue and so on so the prophet muhammad was the best example on this area inshallah say no we have a caller on the line from the netherlands who'd like to ask his question salam alaykum salam alaykum yes brother could you share your name and your question yes thank you that this is our costitious choice and how is islam dealing with someone with a pedophile what is his treatment how i should see a society deal with him from a islamic view that's my first question and my second question is um uh you said earlier that in the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam the norm was to marry young girls at age nine 10 11 12 um at this time there's another standard does it mean that it's abnormal for a muslim to marry a girl for example 12 11 years uh also from the islamic views and that was my two questions and may Allah bless you all inshallah thank you very much thank you thank you my dear brother so the first question was relating to how does islam view a pedophile and what does it think of someone who has these urges within them yes islam definitely views it as a disease it's a spiritual disease no doubt um islam divides diseases into the physical and the spiritual physical you know you know the physical diseases you go to the chemist the pharmacy and you try and find the cures but when it comes to spiritual diseases we have spiritual diseases such as lust such as anger such as arrogance hypocrisy envy jealousy these are all spiritual diseases and this pedophilia is no doubt a spiritual disease that affects the human being when a human being is willing to go and molest a child uh take out their sexual fantasies on a child if you found it as being something normal why not approach the parents it's only when you're not approaching the parents because you know very well that what you're doing is something which is going to be horrific and going to be poured to punishment so islam definitely views this as an act which deserves punishment but to punish of course there are all these conditions which needs to be taken towards the legal system the witnessing and so on it's not me and you can just come and pick someone up and say i think that person did it no there's a set system in which a person has to go through the courts before that person is given a discretionary punishment by the judge of the time someone says well does islam offer a cure islam says that just because a person has certain fantasies in their life does not mean that they act upon them even if you tell me i feel something is a natural feeling not everything that's natural is moral it's natural for a person to urinate doesn't mean you go and stand in the middle of the street in front of everyone and say hey i'm urinating here there's a sense of morality in the human being yes science has sought to explain so many things about our existence but on the area of morality science still saying well you know what it's a bit out of the lab understanding dignity and honor and respect and patience and so on so islam says that for a person to come and say that because i have certain fantasies i must act them out because it's a natural urge no on the contrary you're a human being your gods represented on the earth firstly you have the ability to actualize your potential through self-discipline secondly there's a day of accountability for every act that you perform so this is how islam looks at the issue and at the same time if a person may feel they have such urges but they haven't acted upon them that's very important that in our Muslim communities we have counseling it's very important that we have people who can actually sit with them try and see where does this come from is it truly a fantasy of theirs or is it them making up for something that may have happened to them there are some who have prayed on kids because they were prayed on but they had no one to open up to no one to talk to and that's why i say that our mosques can not just simply be places where lectures are given and food is served but our mosques have to be places where such people who before they've acted out the most indecent of acts but the thoughts are going through their head such people there should be counselors who speak to them before such a crime is committed and the brother's second question was to do with uh i believe given that the prophet did or his companions did marry girls of young age is it still permissible to do i know we discussed it briefly in the you respect the law of the land you live in a country where the law is 18 you respect that country there's no such thing as you know what islam the prophet said this that you live in britain so you respect the law of the land the law of the land is saying 18 the law of the land is saying 16 the law of the land is saying 20 you go and you respect the laws of the land this is something many of our people need to understand inshallah so back to the point of uh children and their parents and the abuse they face from their parents what rights do children have over their their parents the rights that children have over their parents are a number of rights amongst them is the right of being given a good name in islam you know today this is something that we've forgotten and it's so beautiful how the religion of islam your question is a beautiful question because beautiful how the religion of islam actually has made sure there are rights for every category of people so that you all you feel a sense of accountability right of giving a good name don't give them a name where they're gonna grow up thinking why did you give me that or they're gonna be facing mockery or it has nothing to do with their heritage when i go to greece or i go to italy and i find people who are named paul and mark and luke and mike you know i see names related to the bible i see people who are proud to be associated with disciples with writers of the bible with people in the christian church you come to our communities today there are many good names given but there are also names which are given to kids where you're like what exactly does that name mean or what impact will it have on the child you've bought a name which you've only really given the child so that in some cases your non-muslim friends might say oh that's a nice name or i always find it amusing when someone says well i'm not going to name my daughter fatima because we have 60 fatimas in the family imam el hussein said if i had a thousand sons i would name them ali and if i had a thousand daughters i'd name them fatima and that name has a bearing on the character of that person so firstly given the child a good name secondly teaching them the holy quran don't neglect your children that when they grow up they can't read the quran properly we'll come back to that in a second you've given me the hint of a phone call yes sorry say it no we have another call on the line islam alaykum alaykum salam yes brother could you say your name and location in your question please my name is my name is ali and i'm from edinburgh edinburgh the reason i'm calling as i've watched sayid amr for a long time and actually he made me convert to shia islam and you know my family's from turkey but you know it's like different over there you know but he said the like the reason i'm calling is because a lot of like things come up about the child abuse and the you know because of the recent events in iraq you know with isis and the things they're doing no and it's just like to you know speak like how to react to non-muslims and what answers to provide them to to assure them that this is not like the real islam now like you try and say different things but you know it's like they obviously oh no no that's fake or this is wrong or no that's no right and it's just really to provide like a real proof that you know islam is not what's in isis you know like it's different inshallah inshallah thank you very much for your question brother thank you so much brother it's always wonderful to hear such inspirational uh phone calls from brothers like brother ali uh in scotland it's gonna it's gonna take a while but it's gonna take hard work from all of us to actually give the non-muslim that confidence that the barbarity of isis was not the norm in the religion of islam i can't blame many non-muslims out there who looked at isis and thought to themselves what what's this and especially looking at the event since the year 2000 and looking at september the 11th july the 7th isis i can't blame any non-muslims who are like is this the real islam but i also know that many non-muslims have met muslims who have been the best doctors in a hospital the kindest of people in their social environment you know and they've met the best lawyers the best engineers teachers who have helped their kids charitable philanthropic personalities and i think more of us i know that we repeat this many times and some people get sick and tired of the fact that do i have to prove myself again you continue to prove yourself not because of yourself but because of the religion of god and the protection of the prophet muhammad's reputation sallallahu alaihi wa alih so for us in the school of ahl al bayt alhamdulillah the shia school we are able to show not only the spiritual ethical path which many other schools in islam do not have the richness of the supplications that we have in the school of ahl al bayt all the wonderful ethical statements and principles of the imams of ahl al bayt but also the fact that isis al qaida shabab boko haram amongst others have got nothing to do with us whatsoever and therefore a person should be able to spread the teachings of ahl al bayt even if it's to their neighbor when imam al rada alayhi salam said may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala have mercy on the one who revives our fear and they said to him imam how do we revive your fear and he said learn about our words and then tell the people for the people hear our words they'll come towards us so this is a time when a person should try their hardest every once in a while forward a quote of imam amir al mu'mineen alayhi salam every once in a while invite an old muslim friend of yours to the mosque let them see the mosque let them learn who them is in the mosque let them meet their neighbors there are many initiatives along those lines which hopefully will dispel what isis has created in terms of myths inshallah so i guess going back to the point we were on before the respected brother called in when you were saying the right of the child over the parent is that the parent teaches the child verse of the quran if you'd be kind enough to my apologies for cutting you off no not at all the right of the child is the child is to be taught the holy quran you know it's sad how many are in their teens and their quran recital is not good at all but never lose hope there's always people out there who can teach you but the parents should not only teach the quran but should have the skill of explaining the stories of the quran quran is not an easy text to read you wouldn't expect it to be that easy but the quran at the same time has a wonderful index which the parents could use to discuss with their kids stories such as the story of ibrahim musa prophet jesus the prophet muhammad other stories ethical principles which are there spiritual maxims which are there so it's not just a matter of saying to the kid well read surat yasin every surat yasin and then we saw yasin every thursday night for 20 30 years without knowing one reason for the revelation of such a chapter why was it revealed what happened in the time that it was revealed what was taking place at that time who is the mu'min of ali yasin why did he come from the furthest part of the city to help the disciples of christ it makes a difference but the parents have to educate themselves so the second right is the right of teaching your children the quran the third is the third right of the child to teach them good manners have to be an exemplar in the household otherwise that child will turn around and say why are you telling me to be moral when you yourself are not moral for yourself are hypocritical liar deceiver deceitful abusive that child's not going to pick up any good akhlaak so these three are normally taken as the main rights of the child and the religion of islam mashaAllah say no we have another quran on the line as-salamu alaykum alaykum as-salam salam alaykum brother could you share your name location and your question with us please my name is yusuf and i'm in canada mashaAllah yes brother how can we help you my question is what is the punishment now i know they've kind of discussed punishing and whatever what is the punishment for someone who is committed this crime and is someone who is close like an immediate family member who has done it to someone do you mean the crime of pedophilia or the crime of pedophilia yeah okay inshallah thank you very much last i said thank you thank you yusuf if you're living for example as yusuf is living in canada or i would say everywhere around the world then islamically you cannot say that there is an islamic state which is under the leadership of an infallible and in shia law for all of these laws to be administered you would require the infallible at the helm and again it's not an easy issue to be able to solve but if you do find that this has taken place this would go towards the laws of rape and they have their own criteria for punishment and what is to be done to the person who for example may have sodomized and what is the discussion concerning the laws of sodomy at that moment and you know forcing yourself into someone without consent that's another debatable issue when it comes to the legal system but suffice for me to say if you you know islamically would require that there is an infallible at the helm some may say for example if an infallible is not at the helm but you may have a state that calls itself islamic state then you'll find that if all the criteria is met some will say for example imprisonment the judge may give the punishment in terms of imprisonment but you'll find in western countries even until today there are many non-muslims when they hear of a pedophile and the crimes of a pedophile even when the law is for example deciding that this person is to be punished by imprisonment you'll find many non-muslims who say no this person should be put to death so even if now i was to say that a judge reaches the decision in islamic law of putting such a person to death i think not only has there got to be clear you know there's got to be clear evidence you can't just come and accuse someone you didn't see in your own eyes we know the difference between truth and false it is four fingers that's what you hear in your ear has to be verified by your eyes adultery murder so there's many other areas where if there is going to be an offense which is committed which is to be punished by that legal system then there are strict criteria but today i've seen for example many times when i read the british press or the american press when you hear that there is someone who's committed an act of pedophilia and they say his imprisonment is for example life if you look at for example what's their names myra hindley and ian the yorkshire yorkshire yes um they will come back to us you find that they had just missed the death penalty but people in britain when they found out how he had abused these kids for killing is a crime but the way they abused them there were many who wanted them dead so today if a person comes and says well you and your islamic legal system you people say death could be an option there are many non-muslims who believe death should be an option when it comes to this area however does islam say death straight away is the option no this is of different opinions there are certain people there's a reform process for them there's other people maybe there's an imprisonment for them each case may be a different case sane or not sane the person who's committing these things how far have they gone and what they've committed so there's many areas of the law that have to be defined before the punishment is meted out so i guess it brings me on two two questions one from a brother in iraq and another one from a christian sister uh one is asking uh sort of if if you based on the ruling of uh if you see a sinner at night don't look at him with the same eye in the morning if someone's gone to repent do then report them do not report him what do you do and second of all um what is your duty if you 100 know that something has happened to a younger family member by an older family member do you speak out against it or not when a person says that you don't spread for example gossip in the community yes you make 70 excuses for someone when you blatantly know someone is abusing children you have to go and report this but this is on definite knowledge not on probabilities not on hearsay there are people out there who have enemies against them who want to spread lies about them to destroy their lives there are famous personalities even in media who are involved in sexual abuse and some who weren't but people just want to destroy their careers simple as so a person can not just say well i heard so-and-so situation if you have definitive knowledge then comes another issue maybe that person who's the victim of what's going on the victim might turn around to you unbelievably and say that i don't want anyone to know this is going to affect my marital life this is going to affect any proposal that i have in the future that's another issue i think the committees in our institutions have to be formed with a few of the wiser members coming together and even our schools in our institutions require trained experts who come who help our teachers on how to keep an eye out on how to train them to watch for these things spot these things of course spot these things very important we can't still live in that bubble that this doesn't exist and wherever there is an environment where kids are going to be alone with an adult should never happen should be a couple of adults there to keep an eye and boys leaving boys alone with you know a male supervisor alone i think that's troublesome as well female okay male i guess troublesome i don't want to say oh we distrust all the males in our community well no bring a couple of people there to keep an eye but when a person knows of something they shouldn't just straight away say well you know what that's i'm going to report everything go to the you know speak to a couple of the wise people the community and maybe someone may have to reach out to the victim do you want us to bring this out because yeah you've exposed someone but you've also possibly ruined the life of someone else because you know there's some guys they'll come back and attack you why did you tell everyone i didn't want anyone to know you are doing it sincerely but i think that our institutions certainly require trained personnel who come and give guidance to the teachers to the volunteers as to how to spot these things and to community members at large inshallah another question here is a earlier on the show it's a said you said that if the father of aisha was the one who brought the proposal to the holy prophet why did the holy prophet accept why didn't he just say no to marrying the child well each of the holy prophet's marriages involve either legal um precepts which are to be enjoined in society or political alliances the only lady the prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family married because he truly loved her was khadija and the best clearest evidence of that is that he lived with him for 26 years without marrying anybody else from the age of 25 to the age of 51 he was with khadija and khadija alone no other wife of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family has that honor that khadija has and another question is did the prophet have any children with aisha no no thank you very much say it back to the topic of children and child abuse then what's the difference between discipline and punishment and how far can a parent take that with their child for example if the child's misbehaving uh can they discipline them or should they punish them would you mind elaborating a little bit on that well there's no harm and you know you can discipline someone without being physically abusive listen some of our parents one look one stare you know you know that you're not going to do that act again they don't even need to say a single word one stare is more than enough especially if you've gone out somewhere to a family's household for example do you know you know one stare is more than enough um and i'm not just going to say it's a it's a matter of a stare islam talks of dialogue is the right of your child imam assala says one of the rights of your children's dialogue you know physical abuse where did that get anyone anywhere i remember a quote attribute to imam alibna mi talib alayhi salam and he says um that that ill discipline child is like an extra finger on the hand if you leave it it looks ugly but if you cut it off it's painful you can't just leave the child to cause menace by saying oh i love him i don't want to say anything nor do you go and just cut them out of your life and also try and make sure that the peers around them are good role models the friend circle has a major bearing on discipline sometimes 50% of a parent's work is friend circle and community parents aren't going to be there on the watch 24 seven but if the community is helpful and the friend circle is a good friend circle sometimes that will be instrumental if you could see that your son or your daughter's behavior has changed have a look at who the friend circle is and try and get them involved as much in the community as possible if your son or daughter does not find involvement in community they're going to look for involvement as well when they look for involvement in other projects elsewhere that's where they could carry some of that ill discipline back home so what if we flip the question around and we say for example if a child comes to their parents and says i have been sexually or physically abused by so-and-so and often rather than the parents saying who did that to why did they do that to how did it happen and going to confirm it they might turn around and punish the child and say keep quiet you don't know what's good for you etc etc and sweep it under the carpet which unfortunately does happen so that the family's not lost their i don't know respect or status within the community what's the right thing to do in that situation from the parents of the may god never show any parent that day it's a it really is a difficult moment because there's so many factors involved in the in the answer or in the solution to the issue what if the child comes and says it was the granddad who was molesting what do you do the daughter-in-law she's now angry but she knows that that's her husband's dad for example what does she do does she say something does she stay quiet if she says something she's ruining a number of relationships but also safeguarding the future of her kids that son when he finds out that that's happening the son's now the kid the man i've respected all my life what do i do to him now but slam says this what do i do do i kick him out do i expose him he's at old age what if he dies the daughter who's come up to you if you don't do anything will be so angry might leave the house never come back again there are parents out there who i think have had that moment but sometimes the fear of community fear of reprisal and the extent of it some just think you know what if you keep that man away then it'll never happen again but you gotta remember that that child goes to bed every night you'll never know what they saw and i think if your child does come up to you and say something like that you need to keep a close eye on them if you've kicked that person out and you want to report something to the police you could do those things but keep an eye on that child because that child there may be a lot they haven't opened up on and sometimes when you keep something in for too long it could end up destroying you so i guess how did these things affect the child in the long run then if they've been through this at a young age but how would they turn out for example someone going through something as traumatic as a as a family member like you said your granddad your uncle your stepdad your father even your older brother sister etc abusing you in such a way how would you be able to to deal with it there was a god the film will come back to me mystic river was it called mystic mystic river i think shan penne there was a group of them who they were one of them i was taken and abused by the priest and the police and so on and and and you really saw the way that it stuck with him when he grew older and you see films like sleepers and the way that they were abused and how it sticks with them and believe you me that for many they can't live a day without a flashback without feeling a belt without feeling you know the sexual penetration and it's vital that we empathize with these victims by being support mechanisms for them you know when you see your friends down sometimes a person looks at them and says you know what's wrong with this guy but you don't know what this guy may have seen that's why slam says always be gentle soft-hearted you know sometimes you walk past someone homeless in the middle of the street you know his guys are alcohol i'm not going to give him any charity that alcohol maybe because unlike you who may have been given the most wonderful mercy of being in a house which was great that person was abused for no reason whatsoever and it's really difficult it really is i remember you know the film monster which was on the basis of a true story uh shalice taran she i think she won an oscar for it and this is a girl who was raped abused by her grandfather for years and when she commits the crimes that she commits later on she blames it on those years of rape now islam will look at that and say hey it's disgusting and oppressive what happened to you but you can't then take that out and blame it on the whole society that i'm going to kill all of you that there's that that is your test and i'm sorry to say that is a it sounds so cold from me because i haven't been through such a test but god's always going to be there for you you're going to say but where was he then and i can't blame you for saying that i really can't and i'm sad that society in allowing alcohol to be something normal and killing religion to an extent where if you're religious anymore people laugh at you and i'm sad that there are religious figures who abuse their positions but you but that you but that faculty of discipline after intense hardship and faith in god must remain you look at karmala and the oppression that those ladies went through could have blamed the whole world but they maintained a solid stand to continue the mission of their brother and sometimes i wonder if it wasn't for events like the tenth of muharram i think we would all fall into moments of depression and hatred of everything but you looked at the tenth of muharram and that's what religion brings that sometimes that iman that faith that you have that you know what they went through even worse than me i can get through this when that starts getting missing from society you feel like you know what there's no god there's no accountability there's no justice on a day and god save you if then shaitan takes over you and tells you that you know what because this happened to you you got to take it out on everyone but we have to also have a soft heart in recognizing that whenever we see someone in difficulty don't always assume it's because of their own fault sometimes acts such as these are reasons people went towards drink and drugs and other things inshallah so i guess as a closing point say adna how do we ensure that these things don't happen or continue to happen within our community i mean what's what's uh whether it's young people listening now who will be parents one day whether it's elders who have heard of things for example back in their respective countries of these things happening who didn't do anything then but have the power to do so now what advice can you give these types of people to sort of ensure that this is from today onwards none of this will well i think our pulpits have to speak about this openly on the first level to make clear to anyone who is doing this that you know what we're speaking out against this and we will come down harsh against this and we will excommunicate anyone who is involved in such practices and also to give solace to those who are going through it that you know what come out and tell us your story don't hide it come speak to us don't continue going through years of abuse and guilt that you've done something wrong because you haven't there are some who are made to feel guilty don't think that you're wrong come out come speak to us and we have to have a section in our mosque called the councillors section where people are able to go to councillors and sit with them in privacy and confidentiality it's great that we have a number of organizations around the world where a person who's been abused can pick up a hotline confidentially and open up if you're suicidal you could open up if you need help you can open up but every single center of ours has to have hours where confidentially a person can call in or walk in and speak out against what has happened to them in their life and likewise any moment whether you're in charge of football on a saturday school on a sunday you need to make sure that the kids are not left alone without proper supervision and people who are trained and not with just one adult but a number of them and to involve the authorities to help keep an eye out on the possible pitfalls that we're not looking at which may affect some of our youths thank you very much for another insightful show thank you to our respected brothers and sisters for tuning in apologies if i didn't get a chance to read your question there's million questions coming in and we didn't have the time tonight on a more serious note if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in tonight's program please please please please do seek advice from either your local council or your local mosque or people of knowledge within your area in your respective countries and we look to join you again soon for our next discussion from live in london with dr said amman akshwan said now thank you once again thank you and thank you to our viewers at home please keep us in your doors assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh