 Don't forget and good morning to everyone. That's that's just dialing in. So thanks. Good morning, Ravish. How are you? Hi, Ravish. How are you doing? Very good. And I see Ken on the line. What Ken are we? What Ken is this? Ken Johnson from Central Healthcare. Oh, good morning Ken. Are you are you new on the call? No, I was here the last time. I guess they should update my name. Yeah, well that's okay. Yeah, Stephen just did it. Yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to track who it is because I usually can remember names, but not always, but anyway, well good to have you on. No worries. Good to have you on. Wendy's just got on the call. Fantastic. Good morning everyone. Good morning. And we have a Brian on the call. What Brian is that? Oh, and he doesn't have, he doesn't have, doesn't look like he has a mic. So we'll get that sorted. All right. Well, so as folks get on the call, thanks. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good good evening, depending on where you're calling in from. Great to have you on this Friday. Here in Seattle, it's a bit overcast and gloomy, but that's okay. That's springtime weather out here. So we do have a pretty full agenda today. I do want to get started. And as always, first thing we want to do is talk about antitrust with our antitrust policy for the Linux Foundation. I am sharing my screen, so you should see that. And if not, please let me know. Otherwise, there's our antitrust policy. In short, it means be good to others. And so, but I'll urge you to read through there as far as any kind of details go. And that's available as well through the link, the full link for our antitrust policy going forward. Can I ask someone to take notes for me today, please? Oh, and this is always the fun part. If I don't hear, if I don't hear anyone volunteering, I'll start picking names. Hi, Rich. I'll take notes. Yay for Wendy. Thank you. Awesome. Just very, very high-level notes, Wendy. It'll just help me get notes together after the meeting. So thanks. I appreciate it. And then just email me whatever notes you have. Okay. With that said, I also want to sort of ask if anyone is new to the call, new to the group. And I'd love to hear from you. Anyone on the call who wants to introduce themselves to the rest of the membership? Okay, Rich. I'm new to, I think this relatively new to the overall group, although this is not my first meeting. Go for it. Yeah. So my name is Brian Bento from a company called Instamed. Oh, yeah. Yes. So hold that, Brian. I don't want to not allow you to introduce yourself, but I'm going to have you introduce yourself later on because you're actually in the agenda. And so I'd like to have you talk more at that point, if that's okay. Anyone else on the call before we get started wants to introduce themselves? Okay. All right. Well, we'll get started then. So I see a lot of familiar names. It's great to see everyone. And as I said, we do have a full agenda. So I do want to get started. Okay, great. So first of all, I want to go through our subgroup updates. For those of you that may be new to the group, we have three different subgroups. The subgroups are really focused areas for focus areas for this special interest group in healthcare. And these three subgroups are not the end all be all, which is to say that if you have other ideas or other areas of interest that you'd like to participate in, I'd love to have you sort of step up and say, Hey, I got an idea about a work effort that we can do through this special interest group. Keep in mind that we have over 1000 members in the special interest group. They're already sort of, as I describe it, pre filtered with an interest and a professional background in healthcare. And of course, also an interest in blockchain technologies, particularly using the hyperledger frameworks. And so, you know, with with over 1000 members, that's over 1000 resources available, we can do some pretty amazing things. So if you don't see anything here in these subgroups that that's particularly interesting to you, and you see something else that you'd want to pursue, please let me know and I'm happy to facilitate again, we have a lot of resources on hand that we can put to use. So with that said, let's see is Benjamin on the call? I do not see him. So patient member subgroup, I'll give you a sort of a general overview. So their focus, as the name states, is interested in the payer, I'm sorry, the patient aspect of the sort of what I call the the trilogy, which is patient payer and provider. So it tends to be patient focused. Their background and their history, they've been around for the organization, the subgroup has been around for just over just about a year or so, I'd say, with the big focus in donor milk project, which is also a hyper hyperledger lab project. And that is looking at the supply chain for mothers milk, for babies that are born prematurely with mothers that can't yet produce milk for their for their child. And it's an interesting supply chain exercise. So that's part of the focus for that subgroup. They're also looking at other options, other new projects, and other supply chain issues going forward. And so I would recommend that you contact Benjamin. The easiest way to do that would be through our rocket channel chat, which is through the hyperledger HC SIG channel. And feel free to contact me or look on the wiki for details for that for connecting through rocket chat. And they meet every two weeks. Really, it's actually opposite this week. So next week, Friday, I think I want to say nine o'clock Pacific, they meet nine to 10. And so it's every two weeks. Ravish, you want to talk about payer subgroup? Sure, it's a couple of updates. One, if you remember, we've been talking about the white paper and earlier, but looks like they've picked up this team. So last few meetings, they've been good discussions. And also, people have started contributing to the paper. We have the paper on the docs and the meeting agenda and notes that I share. Patricia Chantel, I believe Alan, and I also got the email from John Stolman. He's been a regular attendee earlier. And, you know, he had some, you know, some break time and now he's coming back and wanting to engage more on that. So, so I have, you know, enough, I would say, steam on that side, which is good. So it's progressing. We are hoping that we will wrap up something in this quarter for that. Second is, we also had a good discussion around starting the prototype on a use case. So that will be picking up. I have also thought about, you know, before we pick that up, I was, I've started talking to a few leaders in the area and also talked to Maryland Center for Entrepreneurship. They are willing to host an event of hyperledger event, including bringing in some of the leaders in the local area to talk about hyperledger and blockchain and healthcare. So that's, that is really recent development. I had literally had a discussion on Tuesday, you know, after our call. So that's something that is coming together. I am hoping to have a physical, you know, attendance event if possible, and obviously inviting some more folks to the, to the party, if you will, to work on or start planning on the prototyping that we are planning to do on one use case that we plan to pick up. I will be sending out a communication as well on that regarding to the whole group to invite, if anyone is interested to contribute towards prototyping that we'll start working on, on hyperledger fabric and, you know, related to healthcare pay, that would be a good idea for them to join. So that's where we are right now. Excellent. And can you sort of give everyone sort of a quick summary of what, what the payer subgroup does? Absolutely. So a payer subgroup is more focused from healthcare payers perspective. You know, there is a, there is a lot of interest in a number of use cases in healthcare that may be a valid use case, a leveraging blockchain. And we focus on all our discussions related to payer and how it will facilitate adoption in payer industry. And in the last few meetings, we have been, we have been able to make some good progress on the white paper that we were planning to publish. And hopefully this, I am hoping to wrap this up this quarter and then also kick off the, the prototyping effort or some kind of POC effort, just like the donor milk use case, I will be looking for a sponsor in the healthcare industry. And that's what the, that's where the, you know, the Maryland Center for Entrepreneurship and, and their engagement with a lot of local businesses, including the larger companies is there. So they will help promote that event and, and bring in some, you know, people together here physically. So we can, you know, really put some steam and steam and some sponsorship behind the use cases. Excellent. And, and when, when do you meet? We meet every other Tuesday. And it's the same week of the Tuesday that we meet for this, you know, Friday. So we met this last Tuesday and we'll, we are meeting every other Tuesday. And, and at what time? It's from 3pm to 4pm Eastern Standard Time. Excellent. And it's the same conference number and everything. Correct. So anyone who's on the call is, and, and wants to contribute, they're welcome to join. Perfect. Okay. Thanks, Ravish. And then our newest subgroup, the healthcare interoperability subgroup, which we call his, not to be sexist or anything. Stephen, you want to talk a little bit about that? Sure. There hasn't been any substantial progress since the last meeting. We're not probably going to be, well, I don't have a firm date. Right now I'm really overwhelmed with a large contract that is coming to fruition next weekend. And not this coming weekend, next weekend. And so the build out for that has ramped up, as you can imagine, quite, quite heavily. And so there's not, I'm hoping that in middle of May, we'll be able to start the meeting. Part of the reason that I don't want to start it sooner is because I want to make sure that we have enough momentum to begin to carry through. There's several things that we'll be doing initially, which will require a body of different types of people, clinical people, software people, to begin to build out specifications. And that's where the documentation will be coming from in this particular health group. The goal here is to actually build a working hyperlegion POC that can respond to episodes of care use cases and be able to put interoperable semantic data on the chain or accessible from the chain and build out the transaction policies and assets needed to do all that. And just to sort of, you want to give kind of an overview of the intent of the subgroup? Okay. I skipped that. So the intent of the subgroup is to take a different approach than most of the other groups, at least I've been involved in here, and that's a bottom-up approach to actually tackle the technical requirements and build out actual code and documentation that will be things like software design documents, that sort of thing, to actually build a hyperledger fabric health channel for a consortium of health systems and individual patients so that we can begin to see just how we would exchange data, where it's needed to be exchanged, and how it's going to be stored on a distributed ledger. So it's a bit of an investigation, sort of a spike, so to speak, as we say, but we will be actually building code and requirements from that. That's sure which is going to drive, which I'm sure at the beginning will drive the requirements for the blockchain and documentation then as we build it out, it'll circle back and feedback into those requirements. So essentially it's to build several use cases. The first one we'll probably be taking a look at will be immunization. Very simple thing to describe the use case and then how that immunization, once it's been put on the blockchain, is used by the patient and by their primary care manager to surface that data from the blockchain. We're making a lot of assumptions, things like identity, consent management, all of those very nice things. We're going just to make assumptions, document them out, so that we don't get bogged down with distractions to exactly how to persist or make available interoperable data on the blockchain. Excellent. Yeah, I think that's pretty good. And it just occurred to me as you were speaking that you've generated a charter for the subgroup and I really ought to get it up on the wiki, and so I have a note to myself to get that taken care of, because I think that'll also help to inform newer members about what it is that you're planning to do going forward. And I think, as you know, Steven, we've gotten an awful lot of really interested folks that are looking forward to participating in this subgroup, so I'm very excited about that. Yeah, and I think it'll be a great effort. I'm looking forward to it. I'm very, very sorry that I haven't been able to, I had hope to get this started back in March, but I just became overwhelmed and just didn't want to start something that we couldn't carry momentum forward. So May looks, that we can try everything possible to get this mid-May. And yes, you're right. We've got a lot of people that have contacted us, and so that's perfect. I don't want to let that momentum die as well. Right. Good. Okay, thanks, Steven. Okay, and then we also have teams that we put together. Teams tend to be more, well, ad hoc, you know, they kind of come and go, although sometimes they spin out more permanent groups, which become subgroups. In fact, the healthcare and operability group that Steven was just talking about was a side effect of an ad hoc team that we had put together. So Ravish is on the call, and he leads the Wiki redesign team. I don't know, Ravish, if there's anything new that you want to report out for that? No, I think, Rich, I don't know if there was any meeting that was set up after Dave's initial discussion, but I think nothing else has come up on that. I think we've been fairly using the Wiki, and I find it effective as well. There are some confluence features that we are not using today that I can definitely share, because there are ways you can create tasks in there for the people who, you know, at least that's something that I've been trying to do. But it's not being used consistently. There are some really good features that confluence has that can be effective. Okay, and yeah, I would agree. It's been pretty quiet on this side. So in general, earlier this year, we moved to confluence from our old Wiki, the old Wiki is basically read-only at this point. So you'll notice that up on our Wiki page, we have some older links that sort of dead end, and so we're in the process of cleaning up that transition. And then as Ravish points out, we have a couple of newer features that we'd like to implement for this SIG. And then the broader issue that Ravish was alluding to is we're trying to work with all SIGs and work groups within Hyperledger to generate sort of a common look and feel for membership. And it's taking an awful long time, it seems, because well, part of it is we're growing at such a fast rate. The organization is growing at such a fast rate that it's just really hard to keep up with things. And so kudos to Ravish for helping to drive this. It just takes an awful long time to get this stuff sort of synced up. Okay, so this is really exciting. So we also have an academic research team that's sort of come together. It was originally kicked off by Adrian Berg, who I don't believe was on the call this morning. Adrian brought this issue up in one of these general meetings, I want to say October, September, October of last year. And so we started talking and generated a proposal, sort of a proposal for where we thought this research team would go. So the gist of it being in short that in healthcare particularly, it tends to be driven in large measure by academic research and the process that academia has used for vetting new ideas through peer-reviewed papers and journals. And so we wanted to find a way to sort of encapsulate that and generate some activity through this SIG for the sake of academic research. Logan, so we had a great meeting, I want to say about a week or so ago. Logan, who's one of our team members, put together a proposal. So thanks, Logan. Did you want to talk sort of briefly on that? Thanks, Rich. Just would invite all feedback. There's no pride of authorship here. There are several things that the paper actually talks about. One is, it's a pivot to actually talk or engage academic medical centers in delivery of healthcare, actually applying blockchain and specifically smart contracts into healthcare delivery. There's actually a checklist in there. There's an attempt at a generic care continuum model that potentially can be looked at by other groups. There's also within the checklist a look at who and how you can potentially drive interest in not just creating papers but actually doing evidence-based medicine and attracting the economic interests of the U.S. healthcare specifically, the payers and the providers. So welcome any feedback. And obviously, I'm very happy to be part of the team. Thanks. Thanks, Logan. Yeah, and I think the way forward is at our last meeting, I think we're going to do, probably get together for an initial meeting. So if there is anyone that is on the call today that's interested in getting more involved in this particular team, please let me know. And again, either through chat, which is a little bit difficult, but more so either through email or the rocket channel chat or rocket chat channel. And the reason for that is we're still sort of coming together with some focus on how best to proceed. But we have a great team. I'm really excited. It's fun. Particularly for SIGs of this nature, we have folks that are really, really sort of top-shelf folks from all over the world that participate. And periodically, we'll have a group spin up and then it tends to queuesce for a while, then it's sort of, you know, we can get another big kick of very, very good resources. And so this is a great example of where Adrian and I sort of let this languish just a bit and then we had some other great people, including Logan and Wendy, Nisarg as well joining the team. And we were really sort of moving this forward again with great momentum. So this is very exciting group. Okay, well good. And so more on that going forward, like I said, we probably have another, at least one other meeting. And in fact, we may end up turning this into a subgroup because of the enthusiasm behind it and the interest behind it. So more to come on that point. Alrighty, old business. So first of all, thanks to all of our subgroup leads, Steven, Ravish, and Benjamin. We have a quarterly report, which we're obligated to generate at a quarterly interval, of course. And what that does is that tends to sort of summarize the work that's been done the prior quarter. And so this is that page. And this is part of our wiki. So feel free to parse that as appropriate. I think it's a great resource for people coming online or people just just general membership that wants to get a sense for kind of where we are at a granular, higher level, quarterly level. But thanks particularly to subgroup leads for helping to make this happen. It tends to tends to just be one of those things that you just got to get done. And so we got it done actually in advance of our deadline, which was fantastic. And interestingly enough, the deadline was a tax day here in the US. And so all the more thanks to you guys for making this happen, because the timing was odd. So last meeting, and actually two meetings ago, because our last meeting was our guest speaker, we had a discussion about use cases. And this was really a conversation that came out of some feedback that I received at the HIMS conference back in February, which was the HCCIG. This group doesn't really have use cases documented per se. We have some very old sort of stale use cases that are floating around in the old wiki. But the question really was, do we want to generate use cases? And I think Wendy sort of, we'll talk a little bit more about sort of her insight on this, because she's she put together a great resource for us for the sake of research that will I think influence some of this discussion. But here's kind of what I want to talk about this morning, which is I'm interested to get a sense for what people's thinking about use cases are. And really sort of the corollary to that is, because I have a view on this, is who would like to volunteer in this space. So first of all, let's talk about use cases. Who sees value in it? And again, we need to sort of think about not just ourselves, because we tend to be maybe a little bit more thoughtful or maybe progressive in understanding blockchain technologies. But I'm thinking more about people that are just sort of maybe learning about blockchain technologies in healthcare and want to maybe learn more. And part of the value I can imagine of use cases is a good example of how to maybe implement a blockchain solution in the healthcare space. But I'd like to get your feedback on this. So anyone want to just sort of jump in and make a comment about this? I have a question first. Go for it. So when you say a use case, can you elaborate more? My understanding when you say use case is I'm thinking something like donor milk, which is a specific, you know, let's say industry, it could be a specific service or product, something to that extent. Is that what you mean by a use case, you know, tracking a specific product or something like that? Yeah, I could be. So, you know, so that would be a good supply chain use case, the donor milk project, for example. So the feedback that we were receiving from the HIMS conference was, and to be honest, it's a little odd to me. But people would come up to us and say, well, what are your use cases for your hyperledger projects? And I said, well, as long as you sort of understand the underlying technology, there are, you know, there are an awful lot. But in the supply chain space, for example, we have, and I go on to talk a little bit about the donor milk project. So to answer your question, yeah, the use cases are really good examples within the context of the healthcare industry that are good examples of utilizing blockchain technologies. So really, it sort of unambiguates the question of, well, gee, why can't you use a traditional database, you know, centralized database instead. So I think, and I think the rationale behind why people are interested in use cases, and this is part of the discussion point, I think, is they want to have a better understanding of the bounds of blockchain technology and when and where and when not to use blockchain technologies. Does that make sense? Yes, so I've been talking to quite a few folks recently. And I've been getting questions about use cases. And to me, this, I might, perhaps I share some of your or maybe confusion or, you know, there's an obvious use case in healthcare, which is interoperability and sharing data across different providers. You know, the, and I know we're going to talk about this in a little bit, but my thought was that taking the fire specification, which is all about being able to exchange information across many different use cases as it were, you know, could be sharing immunization data could be, you know, selling a product, submitting claims, you know, there's all the different ways that different processes and transactions occur in healthcare. It's defined within the fire spec. And if we want to add new message formats, we can add them to the fire spec. You can join HL7 and work on that. And, you know, I don't feel that we need to have like, you know, 10,000 different explicit use cases, because in healthcare, there's, you know, over 100 specialties and hundreds of thousands of procedure codes and so on and so forth. You know. Yeah. So I agree. So here's my concern about use cases. It, in my mind, it's, let's see how to describe, in my mind, what it feels like sometimes is people say, well, you know, if I said here the 10 use cases that we present, I don't want people to sort of stop thinking that, well, gee, here are the 10 times, 10 opportunities I would use a blockchain solution, and that would be it. And I'm limited to these sort of 10 different sort of examples or 10 different instances where blockchain technologies would be appropriate. And it kind of shortcuts people's sort of understanding or expectations of the technologies. Now, the flip side of that being examples are always great to present because it gives some context for the implementation of technologies, particularly newer technologies. So people can kind of understand where the value in the technologies are and are not. And again, like I said, you know, the corollary that was at the conference, people often ask, well, can't you do this as a central database? And the answer is, yeah, in some cases, you certainly could. And so you want to be able to, in this case, underscore the fact that blockchain solution usually is optimal if you're, you know, working across organizations rather than within a single organization. And of course, there are obvious examples where that is not necessarily true. But I think the value then of a use case is that it does present good examples so that people can better sort of understand the technology and sort of, you know, see different facets of value as implemented. So I get that. But again, maybe to your point, it just, I'm always a little cautious about it, because I don't want to try to limit the discussion to, you know, the five or 10 different options or examples that we present. And that's the only thing that, you know, a hyperledged solution affords. The example that I've been using that I think has been helpful in conversations is to say, you know, and this is coming back to the project that we did, but, you know, a patient goes to a doc, goes to the hospital, the hospital for a single visit, you know, they maybe see six different providers that are all contractors. And then, you know, a couple months later, the patient gets six bills from six different organizations. And for all for the same visit, and the patient is extremely confused because they wonder if they've already paid the bill, they have to go to six different websites and follow six different payment processes and have six different logins just to pay for that one visit. Obviously, the US problem. But what would be a, if you wanted to think about what would be an ideal state would be that there would be a virtualized single system where I as a patient would only have one set of credentials. And as a participant, I would be able to see all of my data across all of those providers and see all my balances in a seamless low friction experience. So the creation of that virtualized one system, similar to, hey, you know, how would it be if we had to, if we were calling different people in the United States, we'd have to have six different phones, one for each different part of, you know, bell telephone, because those different organizations didn't speak to each other and were not interoperable. Yeah, and exactly. So this intermediation is a great example of how blockchain technologies can sort of solve some of the issues there. Hi. This is Wendy. Is that okay if I jump in? Yeah, I was just going to open it up to everybody else. So thanks, Wendy. Yeah. These are great examples, Brian. Thank you for offering those. I would like to offer kind of a big picture suggestion for starting and I'm more than happy to jump in and volunteer to lead this effort if the group would benefit from that. I see this is overlapping tremendously with our academic research because a lot of the use cases are being developed and established in academic research. And I wondered if it would make sense to start by just creating a skeleton, basically a list of use cases that have been proposed out there so that we don't try to recreate the wheel and we just kind of consolidate just at a high level just what are different topics under different categories. And then we as a group decide after we have a chance to evaluate and really incorporate the diverse experience of this group that we pick certain use cases that we feel like have the most potential and the most attraction for those organizations that are really looking for a value added approach. So what do you think about that? That would be fantastic. I love volunteers. And of course I'd be happy to facilitate and get that spun up. So I'd like to hear from others. I'm interested to get people's perspectives on where the value lies and where we want to maybe avoid areas that maybe don't demonstrate value to purpose. Yeah, one of the challenges there's, it's always, the value is in the eye of the beholder. And I am aware of about 150 different use cases in healthcare and some seem more tangible than others. So I wondered if it would make sense to just start listing them and then picking where we want to elaborate. So what do you think about that? Sure, that would be great. I'd love to open this up to others. So how about, this is Jonathan. So I don't like the use case approach. It's more important probably like case studies. My background is in healthcare, but also is in medical informatics. And one of the pillars of medical informatics is an ethnographic observation of information flow. So it really is not just throwing out a use case, let's say immunizations. It's really taking that as a case study of where the information is, who holds the information, who are the stakeholders, how is that data modeled. And in this case, really the provenance of the flow of the information and who there controls it. So I don't like just throwing out a buzzword of, oh, we're going to put immunizations on the blockchain. It really is taking each of those, and you can create a list. There's lots of lists out there. I'm starting with immunizations as well, but I think that is kind of like the hello world of healthcare, but I was in my master's degree. It was like I had to build an EHR system. And we started off with a immunization or vaccination registry because everyone has one, or at least they should have one. It's decentralized by nature. And it's, you don't get all of that in one place. So it has to do with identity. It has to do with lot numbers. It has to do with track and trace, et cetera. So I think it's a fascinating starting point. The mother's milk is in the use case. I've heard about last year, it just, it's so specialized that it's not probably, it can't be torn apart and actually broadly applied. So I was just thinking about it more of a case study. And once you actually have a systematic way of tackling it, really understanding all the nuances of the information and then see how actually that could be generalizable into other use cases. Yeah, very good point, Jonathan. So this is useful. And what I'm going to ask is, and again, I'm happy to set this up. Wendy, I'll sort of put you on point for helping to drive this. What I'd like to do is just get a meeting together offline with anyone that's interested on the call. So if you're interested, let me know, or let Wendy or Jonathan know over on the Rocket Chat channel. And we'll schedule a meeting. And it'll be in the next week or two to talk more about this and to set some direction. And so like, as I was talking about before, we have ad hoc teams that we put together for dealing with issues like this. So if you're on the call and you're interested, please feel free to let me and the others know and we'll move forward from there. Does that sound reasonable, Wendy? That sounds great. I am always eager to hear everyone's perspectives and to determine the most efficient approach for moving forward. Awesome. And thanks, Jonathan, to for your input. I suspect you'll probably want to be interested in that conversation. And probably Brian as well would be my guess. Yeah. And we are. So the immunization use case is actually, so I'm on the IEEE, so the Identity Healthcare Working Group for IEEE. So that's actually our use case. And that's a subgroup within IEEE, the 2418.6 specification. So I think it's probably important to have these standards developed across the board. So now it's just out of one standard's body, but actually is that we get buy-in from different standards organizations. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Even better, yeah. Yeah, even better to cross-pollinize that. Yeah, fantastic. Great, great. Good, good, good. Okay. Yes. Yeah, hi, Bob Coley. I'm trying to determine when Benjamin Deedee set out a private email back on April 12th, which was a call for project ideas. Is this synonymous with this use case investigatory effort, or is this something totally separate? He's not on the call, unfortunately. Right, right. So Ben's really more interested in looking for use cases within the context of their subgroup, which tends to be a little bit more patient-facing. So it's very possible that the work that we do out of this ad hoc team is a feeder into the patient subgroup, but right now they're really a little more separate than the not. Okay, all right. And before I forget, Jonathan, can you contact me through the Rocket Chat channel because I don't think I have your contact information. Yeah, sure. Thank you. And are you local, by the way? Are you in Seattle? No, so I'm in Chicago now. Oh, okay. So it's Jonathan Holt, H-O-L-T. So I'm the founder of Transcendex. And are you on LinkedIn? Maybe I can just contact you through LinkedIn. Perfect. Okay, thanks. Okay, and thanks, Bob, for the comment. Yeah, so I know Ben is trying to look at other use cases for patient subgroup, and so that's kind of been his action. Okay, thank you. Okay, in the same sort of general context, the other comment that came out of the HIMS conference was an interest in blockchain governance. And so this, we had a discussion two meetings ago. I ran this up through Hyperledger Community Leadership and asked them, is anyone doing anything in this space right now? And the answer was no. And our sort of broader interpretation of blockchain governance really is cross-cutting, so it isn't necessarily specific to the healthcare industry. It really is going to apply to just about any organization that stands up a blockchain solution and then has a need to understand how to sort of manage it going forward with best practices and so forth. So, and I'm going to color this a little bit, but my sense was this is going to be a lot of heavy lifting, but in part because I don't think the organization really quite has mechanisms in place to make it easy to contact organizations laterally. I mean, even with our Wiki, it just seems to be taking a long time to sort of get synced up across SIGs, and we really haven't worked with the work groups quite yet. However, that said, I think there is value in this. I just wonder if this is something that we want to try to do within the context of this healthcare SIG. And of course, if anyone has a real interest and again wants to sort of volunteer themselves as a resource, I'm happy again to facilitate, make introductions and so forth. Anyone want to sort of talk more on this on this particular topic? Oh, and now I've done a horrible job and I've frightened everyone. So, well, so I'm going to say I think there's value to this. I think really, I think, and this was sort of my recommendation was we may want to spin up a standalone work group called Blockchain Governance that is really focused on this again at more of a cross-cutting or sort of more lateral view on this. Because again, this is something that it was brought up in February. And it's a great story because people are in some ways already accepting of the technologies and they're looking ahead to say, well, three to five years out, or even a year out, how do I manage this solution in the same way that I manage other technologies that are pretty well established? Again, thinking centralized databases and doing updates and CI type activities. And again, what are demonstrated best practices and where are they documented? But again, my sense is that's out of the context for this healthcare group. But again, I'd be happy to facilitate if we have people that have an explicit interest in pushing this. Okay, well, so if you happen to, after the fact, feel free to contact me and we'll continue to push this. Okay, so on a new business, and I'm looking at the time we got about 15 minutes. So this is great. So I'm going to let Wendy talk a little bit about this. But one of the great things that Wendy brought to the table several weeks ago was a list of her sort of private citations that she's been collecting over some period of time. I sent out a special email about a week ago to membership, and this was to all membership, to talk a little bit about this great resource that she's provided. So it's officially now part of our wiki. And it is, it is vast. In on paper, it's about 97 pages. Of course, a wiki page, there is no such notion of that. But it's phenomenal. And so Wendy, do you want to talk a little bit about this and more sort of how this came together and how you use it? Oh, sure. So this, because I come from academic research and trained as a scientist, I really find value with exploring the academic literature, especially because it has gone through peer review. So many, so much information we find a blockchain on the internet hasn't been scrutinized and hasn't gone through a rigorous review process. But academic research provides another layer of scrutiny to ensure that the information is more credible. So over time, I had been collecting references in EndNote. And then I realized as we had an academic research team in this special interest group that it would be valuable to export some of the references that I have. So the way that I created this export is to also include links to where you could find information, where you could find these articles. And I noted next to each whether it was open access, or whether you whether it required a subscription to review. Anytime that reference required a subscription, I also looked to see if it was posted somewhere else as open access, so that you could click on the subscription information, which contains all the details that you would need to download the reference if you liked it. But otherwise you could access the article for free. And I provided an abstract so that there were more key terms so that if you were looking for a particular topic, you could just do keyword searches and see which articles seem to mention that topic. And then you could click on the link to access that information. So I cannot provide the subscription only articles to the larger group for copyright due to copyright restrictions. But if anyone absolutely loved an article and they just couldn't access it, send me a private email and I can provide it to one individual. So just I hope that this is a helpful resource and I plan on updating it approximately every month. And Rich and I are still working on figuring out how to best update the website. So where to go. So excellent. Thank you for that, Wendy. I mean, this really is a phenomenal resource. It really is an amazing document. And thanks again, Wendy. So that does remind me. So if anyone is on the call that is familiar with Confluence, as it turns out there does not appear to be a direct way to import a Word document, a Microsoft Word document into Confluence or Confluence without losing formatting. And that's really key because again, Wendy's original Word document, which is we're going to use her document, which is offline as a single source of truth, which means as she updates it on we're hoping about a monthly basis, it'd be great if we could do it more often, but we need a workflow for this. We need to be able to import these with zero friction or near zero friction. And at the moment, there is apparently no way to do this. And I've been working with Hyperledger community leadership to see if there are plugins that are available. And there used to be a plugin, as we understand it, but there doesn't appear to be a plugin that allows us to do that. So anyone has ideas? Rich, this is Ravish. Yeah, just a quick thought. If you save the document as HTML, you will not get a Word document, but it'll just flow. And if there are links in the document that works, you can import the HTML into Confluence. Yeah, and I've done that. And the issue that we have is horizontal lines, even in HTML, don't get carried into Confluence. And as it turns out, we exercise that particular issue in this document, which is really ends up being a high cost issue. It's about a 20 minutes or so to reintroduce those horizontal lines. But Ravish, let's take this offline and talk more, only because, yeah, this is a big deal, and I'd love to find out. If you can send me a tamper document, I can try and I can send the directions. Sure. In fact, Wendy, can I have you just email that document to Ravish? Would that be okay? Oops, absolutely. I'm not sure if I have Ravish's contact information, so maybe we can just exchange that offline. Sure. I'll make introductions. Okay. So I'm just mindful of time. We have about 10 minutes left. So I'm going to move forward, pretty quickly here. So every so often, we have opportunities in the healthcare space that come up that present us with very interesting opportunities, collaborate, and work as a team, or as teams, plural. So if anyone is familiar with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, they tend to fund a lot of socially sort of facing challenge opportunities. There was one that I participated in a couple years ago. And so we have two opportunities that are just opening up at the end of this month, so about 10 days from now. One is social determinants of healthcare, the innovation challenge for that, and then the other is the home and community based care innovation challenge. So I've provided links in the agenda, and feel free to walk through here. There's sort of the statement for this particular challenge. And I want you to think in terms of blockchain solutions, of course, and then for the home base innovation. And here's sort of the challenge sort of thesis here. And I see Alan Bachman on the call, and we just did a kidney X challenge courtesy of Alan and CVS Health about a month or so ago. So again, this may be something that we may want to think about. And my background is in kidney care. And so I'm looking at this and going, well, we can maybe do something with blockchain technology is kidney care. So anyway, so I'd really like you to think sort of long and hard about these two opportunities. And again, imagine from your perspective that we have over 1000 resources potentially available who would want to participate in something like this. And so it is as is the case for a lot of these challenges, it's a very, very short window of opportunity about a month to put something together that the deliverable, I believe on both of these is a very short statement document. And then I think 10 pages up to 10 pages of slides and a wireframe sort of prototype of the solution. So so the deliverable is reasonable for that one month sort of turnaround. But of course, you'd have to really be, you know, moving along with some velocity sort of quickly to put together a solution. So it's a bit early. I'm thinking out what I'm going to do is I'll generate a an email to introduce this to full membership, and then we'll sort of coalesce some teams around these two points. But what I'd ask is, since this is a very quick sort of introduction, I think I learned about this maybe the last night is when the email went out or when I saw it, we do want to sort of try to operate quickly and see if there are people that are interested in moving forward on this. Okay, and then finally, and we have Brian on the call, and I'll let Brian speak for a little while. We've got about five minutes left on the call. Brian will be presenting next general meeting, which is May 3. And he's from Instamed, and I'll just sort of point out Instamed, there's their website, and they're working on some solutions. What's really great about it, and this is going to be the real incentive for people to go play, they actually have a demo that's up and running. And so I'll let Brian speak a little bit more about his presentation at our next meeting. Thanks, Rich. Yeah, I wanted to quickly say, Jonathan, I loved your comments. We wanted to take a similar approach of building something that is more generalized, that's more generic. And we open sourced our code. We implemented, I even translated all of the HL7 fire resources, including the clinical ones, to the Hyperledger, Node.js SDK, and Convector TypeScript model. So it would be very easy for anyone to build on top of what we built, and just implement other flows, as defined by HL7 fire. But the specific aspects of HL7 fire that we implemented on Hyperledger Fabric included the financial management workflow part of fire, if anyone is familiar with it. Specifically to solve the problem that I mentioned earlier, where as a patient, the majority of bills that are being sent to patients are done via paper. And then when the patients are paying those bills, they tend to pay them by mailing a check-in yet still. Sometimes they pay online. But it's very inefficient. Over $400 billion a year comes from patients in the US market alone. And the fact that it's so difficult and expensive to collect from patients is a huge burden of inefficiency on the market. And then a couple other big ideas that I thought about while implementing this is that Instamed is a clearinghouse, but we are focused on healthcare payments. I'm thinking about this as Clearinghouse 2.0, that if organizations wanted to host their own node and be a member, they could, or they could go through another member and just be a participant. But this is not too dissimilar from what Clearinghouses do. But in Clearinghouse 2.0, in addition to just being able to support the claims and remittances and eligibility and a few other of the HIPAA transactions, you know, it would be being able to support a much broader set of data exchange. And I also think about this. I've been thinking about Hyperledger Fabric as something more about interoperability and the, it's kind of like the TCP-IP protocol. Nobody should own the TCP-IP protocol. What would the internet look like if companies tried to own their own protocol? You know, we might have 10 different internets, you know, or 100 different internets. You know, my thinking is that we did this work in an open space and made it open source so that anybody could use it. We're not saying we don't own it. We're trying to become a Hyperledger Labs project. I met with David Boswell yesterday to talk about it, and we're also talking to HL7 Fire and, you know, trying to ask them to make a few enhancements and add new resources to the specification. And we're trying to get a working meeting at the September working group meeting in Atlanta to have a conversation about interoperability and blockchain. Because right now, you know, OAuth is great. It allows, you know, you to use your credentials from a third party application. But it still doesn't solve the problem that if I go to six different doctors, now I have six sets of credentials. And so we need some sort of single sign-on, you know, some way to be able to access all of our data across multiple providers to create that layer of abstraction while still maintaining HIPAA compliance and security. So, you know, those are some of the ideas. And you'll be sort of focused on this discussion in your presentation at the next meeting? Correct. So I will be demoing, taking a look at our open source repository, demoing our application, and then talking about the big vision of, you know, what are some possible things we could do with this code base and move the ball forward, you know, next steps. Because the purpose of this was not to just solve our one problem, I took this opportunity to come up with a generalized solution that other people can just carry forward and start working and cut down on the work that they need to do to implement their use case. All you have to do is, hey, go to the fire spec, you know, pick the resources that you need. They're already been translated for you, implement a few of the controller methods. We have instructions on how to deploy it and you're done. Literally, you could probably get it, implement your use case as it were, you know, in a few days. Because we've done all this heavy lifting for you. Excellent. Well, good. So this is a great intro to our next meeting and a great segue to sort of close out this week's meeting. We're at the very top of the hour. So thanks, everybody. And stay tuned for in two weeks. And Brian will be talking about their open source solution using hyperlittra fabric and InstaMed. So with that, it'd be great to say thanks, everyone. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you in two weeks. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks, guys.