 There's probably three or four points in our Better-booch career where we hit a fork in the road that was like are we doing this or not You know and the first of which was about six months into the farmers markets at the time We were actually the only thing we could either find or afford Was a time slot of the commercial kitchen that we rented, but the only shift was like midnight to 3 a.m so we would drive up to like Santa Clarita with our tea and like bottle from midnight to 3 a.m and We quickly grew out of that space so within six months. We had to find our own space and we did find a space You know turns out the commercial kitchen was Miss advertised to us. Nothing was done to code and we had to redo the whole thing Which basically ate all of our savings by the time we actually had our license and could operate out of it We had no more money. So we were basically like starting from dead zero This is start of the storefront the podcast where we inspire entrepreneurship through truth Today's guest is Trey Lockerbie co-founder of the kombucha brand better beach Trays first experience with kombucha was an unpleasant one on many levels His sister was going through treatment for breast cancer and trying everything under the sun including kombucha Tray tried it and hated it, but couldn't quite shake the thought from his mind that it could be better After a few years and a whole lot of tinkering with recipes Trey and his wife Ashley took their bootch to a local farmers market where it was an instant hit But just because they had a better product doesn't mean that the journey to becoming a nationally distributed brand was all sunshine and rainbows So listen in as we cover everything from why they never set out to conquer the world with their brand Why the kombucha market is nowhere near its full potential and how being an investor in other people's companies Makes you a better owner of your own company Now back to the episode Welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Trey founder of better bootch. Thanks for coming on my pleasure This is Nick's favorite drink legitimately all time I was at a music festival a couple years ago. I was working it and in the artists lounge They had a kombucha display with like three or four different types of kombucha and I I tried them all over the course of the weekend and Yours stood out head and shoulders above the rest I think it was like brew doctor or maybe like some like health aid or whatever and Later on I found myself in a Whole Foods and I was looking to buy a kombucha And I saw your brand again and so the first thing I kind of do when I look at drinks that I like I'm like alright how much sugar is in this and Comparing the sugar content of all the kombuchas in that store yours was below. Yeah, everyone else Absolutely, and so I was like, oh, okay. It's actually living up to the name. Yes, and I can feel good about drinking this Yes, because I'm not just overloading with my body with sugar. Yeah, it's probably obvious But being better bootch we try to do everything better everything. Yeah better way Absolutely, so and part of that sugar content is Fairly easy to understand once you kind of grasp that most of the other brands are adding juices to their kombucha for flavor and all of our Kombucha is tea based so teas herbs botanicals adaptogens so it's actually more authentic and traditional as far as kombucha goes and Whereas a lot of the other brands are almost like fermented juice, you know in that regard What made you want to start the company? What was like the the problem you were solving or maybe you were just a fan of kombucha? I wasn't a fan of kombucha funny enough me neither So until yours and then this is not this sounds like a plug But it's not like Nick put me on to this and I was like, I don't like kombucha Yeah, and then he got me this one specifically the sage and I was like, this is amazing Yeah So the story goes a little bit where my sister who got diagnosed with breast cancer very early on in her early 20s Tried everything, you know chemo radiation Tons of different surgeries and it really wasn't till she went to Germany To get some treatment. She couldn't get in the US and it was more of a immunology kind of treatment So full body overhaul of nutrition and everything else and they put her on a diet and it included kombucha And she started being like wow, this is a this is actually making me feel really great And so she was telling me all about it and raving and I started looking into it and what year was this? This is 2011 probably actually probably 2010 because Yeah, my experience was going to a store and I bought the only brand that there was at that time And I pulled into my driveway actually and opened it up and it Overfomed and exploded on the import on my lap and I like ran inside and it foamed basically half of it down the sink And then I tasted it and it tasted like dirt water and I was like, okay What the hell is this and I kind of swore off kombucha to be honest since then but she was very adamant about the benefits And so I was eager to like make it work. I was just really intrigued by it So I learned how to brew it myself and I figured okay Well, I like peach tea I like some other things I drink very often and maybe if I make a kombucha with that it would taste better and that was the first light bulb that went off is when I've tried my own kombucha and Had tinkered around with how to brew it. It was so good that I was like Oh my god, everyone would drink this if they knew it's supposed to taste good I didn't know kombucha was supposed to taste good right You're like, hey, would you like to try some homemade kombucha and the first thought is no How do I say no in the most firm but polite way possible? Yeah, and that's there's a lot of reasons for that too a lot of people over ferment their kombucha It becomes very vinegary, etc But what we were tasting at home was way better and hence the name better butch yeah We thought you know my wife and I at the time we were both touring musicians So we were kind of at our wits end with the touring life a little bit And we're looking to kind of pivot and and do something more domestic You know we starting to date and everything you don't want to be gone all the time and we You know eventually wanted to have a family and do other things and said okay music is not gonna really allow for that so we were looking for something else and Honestly, we didn't set out to conquer the world or anything. We really just wanted to sell at farmers markets and make some side income and and it really is Actually quite a feat to even show up at a farmers market, which I think is surprising to most people I kind of thought you would just rock up to one and be like hey I've got some stuff to sell and they'd be like cool grab a tent, but that's not how it works at all in LA Especially it's kind of like the mafia you have to get in and I can see that yeah It's there's a lot of bureaucracy around it, etc And we had to make the product in a commercial kitchen and all these things so by the time we showed up We were pretty invested and ready to go and then we sold out and then we went back the next week sold out And it just kept baking more and then it just slowly consumed our livelihood and here We are were you guys like a group in them like were you guys working together as musicians? No actually so my wife She was primarily a background singer for Rihanna. So she spent four years with her all over the world And I was more on the Like singer-songwriter route so a lot of LA based songwriters I toured with including my own music and then this artist named Lenka out of Australia I did a lot of international stuff with and so yeah, we got I mean it was an amazing opportunity because we got to See the world and get paid for it and be in our early 20s and have some savings and well I dropped out of college and she went to a conservatory. So neither of us had like college debt and So we were in a really good position to kind of like take a risk and yeah I started business when you said the farmers market thing. I had a company at one time and we had I Remember we had to wait for a cancellation like someone had to cancel their yeah It's like a year-long wait list or yeah, and then that's how we got to show up and then The woman running it was like if you guys are nice, we'll invite you back And I was like what like we have to be which we obviously were planning to be nice But it was a weird that that's how she presented it like if we like you yeah You'll be invited back to next week and it was like our car was full And we had the super small car and it was like full of like the tent and the weights and we had to learn like Oh, there's wind so we need weights and then if it rained this was in Boston And so it was like different factors or if the weather is not good nobody's showing up to this thing But I remember that I remember like she was very territorial about us just being on the list Yeah, you wouldn't believe the you know the feedback from our friends I mean they were like you're doing what like we were set up at a farmers market selling tea and they're like You quit Rihanna to do this like what I mean a lot of people thought we were crazy Rihanna is the latest billionaire. Yeah, she's doing she's doing great Okay, so then things are going all at the farmers market. Yeah, and now you're thinking like, okay Let's scale or are you thinking? Yeah, so we kept there's probably three or four points in our better brooch career where We hit a fork in the road. That was like, are we doing this or not? You know and the first of which was about six months into the farmers markets at the time We were actually the only thing we could either find or afford Was a time slot at a commercial kitchen that we rented but the only shift was like midnight to 3 a.m So we would drive up to like Santa Clarita with our tea and like bottle from midnight to 3 a.m And we quickly grew out of that space. So within six months We had to find our own space and we did find a space. It was advertised to us as a commercial kitchen and They wanted a two-year lease minimum And so that was one of the fork in the road that we're like, okay two years Geez, that's a that's a big commitment. You know, like are we really doing this or we but you know Are we not so we were like, yeah, let's do it. So we signed it, you know, turns out the commercial kitchen was Misadvertised to us. It was nothing was done to code And I think it was a cannabis facility beforehand or something that they didn't tell us and so it was all very like We had to redo the whole thing which basically ate all of our savings and then by the time We actually had our license and could operate out of it. We had no more money. So we were basically like starting from Dead zero like scratch and so so that was your introduction to the city coding. Oh, yeah That was our first. Yeah, we're so bring reality. Oh, yeah Yeah, were you full-time by that like before you signed that to your lease were you still like dabbling in it and not really? Yeah, we weren't full-time. I think it took two or three years for us to finally go full-time into the business So we're still doing music on. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, luckily like the touring gig I had Actually Ash was doing less touring at that point But my touring was pretty easy like we'd tour for a week or two out of the month and then be back home And so it was manageable But still trying to kind of pivot out and it was really like a point where Like I said, we kind of set it up as a side business to start and then when it started Getting serious and we had to sit down be like, I think we need to now really consider this as a full-time thing And that's we saw a huge inflection point once we once we did that I remember just as as simple as setting up an office in our brewery, which we hadn't done yet You know, we were working out of our apartment as soon as we even like put an office in and started going to work every day You know that that's when we saw like just a huge amount of momentum start. That's awesome Was that hard though to not give up on music but to stop touring and everything because that that's a lifestyle You know, you're not just like leaving one job and starting another you're leaving a lifestyle Yeah, I don't I mean looking back. I don't feel like it was that Difficult, you know, especially that the gig I was doing at the time was a lot of international stuff So there was one point where I was flying to China I think I flew to China four out of four times in like two months or something something like that We're just like long flights and that makes it very easy a lot easier to be like, I'm done You know, I'm over this and I think that's where I was at the at the time and Ashley's story is, you know, she was so Rihanna was released the record seven records in seven years and Ash was on the wave, you know from the time umbrella launched to the four years after and They did not have a break They would just be a world tour cycle and then another one and then another one because the record kind of you know Is written while they're on the road and then recorded and you know a week and then wow they're back on the road again and so She was supposed to be she got home for Christmas and was supposed to have I think two months of a break for the first time in a couple of years probably and You know on Christmas, they sent an itinerary and there's another 12 months of back-to-back dates like so the break wasn't happening So that was her kind of point of being like I can't do it again, you know, so was Rihanna like no I need to see you. Yeah, I don't I mean I don't know about that, but it was certainly like the time to move on and and I think a lot of people Understood, you know because yeah, it's just not for everybody long-term. Yeah I've been a groupie for a little bit with our friends who are musicians in Australia We did like four gigs with them in four days and Like I was just hanging out with them. I'm like, this is a lot a lot This is not not a lot of people realize that you're only playing music one hour of the day You know, there's a whole other 23 hours involved Where you're almost like a professional traveler Yeah, like you're basically carting around your luggage and getting on airplanes and waiting for buses and yeah It's just like that's what you're doing the majority of the time or you're sitting in a green room and they're not always nice I mean even in Ashley's instance They were like stadiums and they're or the hockey arenas and they're basically in a locker room You know for that, you know, they try to decorate But it's it's a smelly locker room at the end of the day And so you just start to realize like how you're spending your time You know and as much as you love the music portion and much as how gratifying that can be It's the majority of your time and how that's being spent. And so I was also I remember looking back I was really jealous of my friend who had started a bar and I loved it because it was so tangible like you could go into the bar and you could see him behind the bar and he had this, you know everything you could like touch and feel everything he was doing and I like to say that touring was like this false sense of momentum because You're on the road. You're moving and it feels good At the time and then you get home and it just like slams on the brakes and you're like I have nothing to show for what I just did. I was just on the road You know, like all I was just here and there and everywhere, but like I have nothing like you're not building equity Yeah, I don't like have something to like show and even music. It's so digital now and everything So it was very ethereal all of it was very ethereal and there was something about like just having something tangible that I think was drawing me to the beverage Business because you can taste it and hold it and share it and it's you can you know It's just a real thing at for whatever reason that was in my mind at the time That's I think that's how I felt about leaving tech It was like you we were in tech for so long and there's a part of you were at once you get to your seven That's when you really know if you're on to something, but it takes like that full commitment And so when I moved to real estate development, it was like so obvious. It was exactly what you're saying It's like this isn't a technology that someone somewhere else can can either undercut me or do better This is like an asset that's fixed and it's up to me to do whatever I want with it Yeah, it's like getting clay and I can form it however you want and there was something easy about that There was something that was like this is great and then the problem became how do you solve for time while having real estate? Which it sounds like that's what you're solving for you got your time back So it wasn't a money grab which I think is smart from entrepreneurs You know, I think at some point that you realize it never works. It never works. Yeah Yeah, that's exactly right and then you start solving for time and you get this clarity Around that process. Yeah, and it sounds like you and your wife hit that at the same time. We did look like yeah That's pretty amazing. Did you guys ever raise capital or was this all bootstrapped? Yeah So we we did actually eventually so we bootstrapped to almost two million in revenue With our nice $60,000 that's great. Yeah, that's really that savings one of the first facility So it was a long grind and we took every staircase step and we're still climbing but I went from basically buying the bottles at the local shop Filling them myself with a picnic tap out of a keg and you know capping it off We're in bottles and to begin with and then like loading those into my minivan driving them delivering them you know doing I mean literally doing everything mopping the floors and you know growing one employee at a time from there and We got some private label opportunity early on just given our quality and Process and so we started to explore that side of the business Mainly because we thought all right. Well, this might be a way to hang on to our equity, right and build out capacity and Using you know non-dilutive growth capital, right and scale. Yeah We get some scale and and have someone else pay for it and we got we went down that road in a big way with a couple really big companies And those were our first big we had two really major blitz scaling endeavors We just kind of had a third one I guess for a better bootch but we ended up building out a big team and a good amount of capacity and Then we saw that we were looking at the sales data after you know a year of doing this and You know with these big companies in our face all the time and there was there's a lot of bureaucracy you know that we were getting burdened with and We started looking at the sales data and saying well wait a second our own brand Which was just like a regional brand at the time was outselling both of the private label products We were doing five to one on the velocity side So we were like wait a second, you know, this is a lot of work to put into an underperforming Product, you know, so that kind of led us to be like well We started out to do this for ourselves anyways, you know We kind of had lost sight of that thinking a longer term that we'd be able to expand more strategically if we in and controlled But just given the amount of work that and focus that was going to someone else's brand Kind of made us be like well, this is not what we set out to do So that's when we said okay Well, we need to phase out of co-packing, but we don't lose the team You know that we've just built and the everything that we just kind of built out because as I put it we kind of went through beverage bootcamp and I feel like our ops team especially we're like Navy SEALs after that because we were you know We had to get all the certifications and do all the things and really invest into these people and we didn't want to lose that So that's when we're like all right We want to scale out and focus on better but to supplement we need to raise outside capital And so that's the first time we we did that Wow, which about seven years I almost would have thought you would went the opposite where you're like we have these huge co-packing deals Let's raise capital based on known volume. Yeah, right? Yeah, it's more straightforward, but that makes more sense. Yeah, that's great Yeah, so here we are we're actually we phase that fully out of private label as of October last year So it's better boot full speed ahead and we're almost doubled the volume out of our facility Just with better boots than when we were doing three other lines Was it straightforward in in terms of educating the market on the product? Was it a lot of tasting? Oh, yeah Like a brand building. Oh, yeah I remember very clearly the evolution of that because when we first started out I felt like no one really knew a kombucha was and we even I think it was around 2014 We set up a boot bar. We called it in the Grand Central Market here in downtown LA It was like a basically a kiosk, but it was a bar with taps and it was kombucha on tap No one had ever seen that and we did it for a year and over the course of that year It was night and day. So when we first started there It was like what is kombucha and I was behind the bar a lot So I was you know explaining to people a lot what it was your pitch got really good It got pretty good, but then by the end of the year that was not happening almost at all It was just people coming up being like hey one morning glory Hey, I want this, you know, it was either they were familiar with the brand or they're just familiar with kombucha It would just it happened pretty fast over that course of the year. That's amazing Do you ever do anything in the alcoholic realm? We've tinkered around with a lot of stuff. Yeah You know right there your process. Yeah, it's a very similar process You know, we have a whole library of innovation that we might bring to market But right now our focus is very much on non-alcoholic better-booch Is it just a longer fermentation process to let the alcohol? Yes, and no so a simple way to think of it is like that where there's a secondary fermentation Usually with a different kind of yeast that's more alcohol producing but The issue you find especially with kombucha is to get that secondary ferment you have to add more sugar Which does get fermented away, but it then produces not only more alcohol, but more acid So it's hard to find a hard kombucha that's not like too much of everything because Now there's too much now. There's a lot of alcohol. There's a lot also a lot of acid So to cover up the acid they're adding a lot of juice And you know and it can become a very dense kind of flavor So we did ultimately solve for that with our own product, but it's just not our focus right now Often you guys like try to roll out different different versions different tastes Yeah, so one thing we initiated last year that's been a really big success is our limited artist series So it's a seasonal flavor. It rotates twice a year So we launched last fall a flavor called ginger spice and we had a local artist design the label And then this fall we launched a new one called ginger mate and another artist designed the label and We have a new we're actually bringing the flavor ginger spice back this fall because it was so successful But we have a different design for it And so that's kind of what we're doing right now, which to be honest We wanted to do from day one, but you know finally getting the chance to do it when it comes to marketing How have you guys gone about that? So you've if you started in 2010 you've seen all the social media channels Quite literally and then you saw instagram become the mainstream. Yeah, are you guys heavy into Either influencer marketing or any of that or is it just like the brand has I mean, it's a memorable name It's a memorable can and so to some extent you I would imagine you don't really need it But we did we've gotten away with not doing much marketing for a very long time I think in the last year year or two, we've really been intentional about the marketing and Luckily, there's a lot of ucg out there for the brand like some user-generated content that We can repurpose and it always looks really great But what we've tried to become on the marketing side Not only on social media, but on our website Is a resource for joy and a resource for health and wellness So if you look at our feed, it's not all just people with cans, you know and in the photo We try to incorporate a lot of things that just uplift you, you know during the day Or maybe give you a break from other things you've seen on your feed And on the website, we have our own blog and journal where we do a lot of interviewing of people with You know phd's and and experts on health and wellness And we just try to become a resource for people because we believe You know, ultimately that better bootch is on the spectrum of health and wellness, but it's not a panacea It's not the only thing you need to do right just like I would say, you know alcohol has a place You know in moderation, right, but certainly on the spectrum But it's a broad spectrum and we think that if you're making intentional Little decisions over time it adds up in a big way and you kind of have this flywheel So better bootch is just one choice you can make every day over something like a soda That helps keep the flywheel of health going So that's that's I think the ultimate message we're trying to get across through our marketing And I think it's been pretty successful in the last couple years Yeah, how many of these do you drink a day? I drink probably two on average And when do you do it like first thing in the morning? Well, usually I am a coffee guy right now. So I do have I have two kids So I have my coffee boost in the morning and then I usually have bootch for lunch And there's usually a can I'm grabbing off the line just for quality that I drink as well So that's one of the benefits of having a brewery is you can just grab a fresh can right off the line and enjoy it Will you ever open a tap room? So We would love to open a tap room. Do you think it's too much of a cultural shift for people? Like well, that's the question. Where's the alcohol here question? I I think now More than ever it would be appealing to folks. There's certainly a there is a trend towards low alch no alch So we're curious. Yeah, um to the point where I think Yeah, I think people are would be more open to something like that in the past. It's been like You know What is the use occasion for folks to come to a kombucha bar rather than a normal bar or anything like that? So like in my mind my dream right would be having the tap room as part of the brewery You know so that people can tour the brewery and see it and la just it's hard to do that Like we're we're currently down in vernon hunting to like vernon There's only 70 people that live in that city It's very industrial or it's a lot of warehouses. It's not like a destination necessarily So it's hard to find the space like our next facility. We're looking at is 50,000 square feet So it's hard to find 50,000, you know tough. Yeah in la that has that destination appeal But I think it's possible that we'll find it in the next facility We'll see you guys deliver kegs to like offices or anything we do. Yeah a lot of like so netflix for example All their corporate offices have better butch on tap right now sisco Okay, microsoft. There's a few others. Yeah, so it's you could have like a tap room with just kegs I guess not as exciting but yeah Or like a little micro brewery, you know, we could certainly have we could do like special Limited releases and stuff like that probably. Yeah, that'd be super fun. Yeah, we should do that. Let's do it You know, it's it's funny from a real estate perspective. I was talking to a broker who was here this morning There's like this concept of he's like, what are you working on next? You know, it's his question to me all the time And there's a part of me that given how covet given covet I'd have no idea like I know real estate has to become more flexible How that looks I have no idea. I know people don't really want to be in the office as much I don't see that I don't see people going back to work. I just don't see that I think with the technology we have in place Today people can you don't need it and you can do slack or zoom and if you can meet once or twice a week I think that's fine But I don't think a business is going to want to pay for that But then there's also this movement around like no like drinking less Everyone's eating healthier or at least they're aware There's an awareness level around eating healthy And so I'm like, what is that thing look like and to me I go back to this Almost like there's a brewery component with alcohol There's something like this something that you're doing as a component. There's coffee as a component Then there's food so it's not I don't want to call it a food haul But it's basically like flex space that we can easily insert musicians and events Brand building events or things that engage humans in a different way But satisfy all the requirements. So it's a little bit for everybody. Yeah make it remote work friendly during the day too Potentially, so right right. Yeah, that's exactly right, but it's also like bringing new products. So it's not the pizza The bar, you know, you're you're ramen. It's not that it's like these are things that the new world has Has gave us signals that they're interested in this movement And making that very approachable but fun from a real estate perspective But I just don't know what it looks like. What seems like flexibility is the name of the game right there That's the whole thing. Do you need a certain license? You don't need a license, right? No No, I mean we just have a we we follow the FDA kind of Certifications basically based on your data. Where is like an ideal location for you to do this concept? Well, it would certainly be in la, you know la is still the epicenter for something like kombucha I would say we're probably Sitting in it. I mean, honestly, I guess Hollywood Yeah, probably be kind of an ideal location and it's interesting your point because not a lot of small businesses have the resources to Risk something like that right to put into its own their own thing just to like test out So it's a great proving ground a proof of concept kind of Flexibility idea that you mentioned for smaller brands, right? That's exactly it. Yeah Yeah, it makes it safe and approachable and it's not it's this massive commitment per se, right? Well, if la is the epicenter So to speak are there other Areas around the country that are growing in in terms of their kombucha consumption. Yeah, absolutely. So I would say la san diego norcal. They're all big on kombucha, but the pacific northwest also a close second Interestingly enough new york not surprisingly is also up there. But when we look at our top 10 cities So for us personally one of our top 10 cities is philadelphia and that was a little bit surprising to me So you are seeing it. I think broad in a bit If you look at the sales data of kombucha in general florida is in the top 10 of as far as states go So that's kind of interesting as well. So it's not uh, it is florida getting things right after all Yeah, there's a lot of one It's still very coastal, you know, I grew up in indiana So my mission has been to try to make a kombucha that appeals more to the midwest Especially and can kind of infiltrate more of the country. Yeah And by doing that, we try to make it very approachable Try to make the flavor not taste weird, you know, and and yeah, it's something that you want to crave You know that you crave instead of you, you know, have to drink kind of thing So yeah, that's been our mission and I am hopeful that we will start seeing those States, you know adopt kombucha more and more what's big picture for you guys Do you want to keep expanding your your product line into different things or is it Acquisition what what's kind of your ideal the way you play out the next five years of your life? Yeah, how do you think about that? I personally think that kombucha is nowhere near its full potential and I do think that It's about a billion dollar category right now Half of which is tied up in one brand who's been around for 25 years doing it almost doing like a home brew method and I would say that their brand and product is particularly Polarizing to most people either people love it, which I get or they won't they won't touch it and that's kind of concerning, you know for the category in my opinion and so First of all going back to the philosophy of how it should be brewed I have a differing opinion on that thinking, you know I'm a big believer should stay very tea forward and be a smooth drinking experience And so I think that inherently that will adopt more people and attract more people into the category As long as the education piece is there and people can understand Why they should be drinking kombucha and oh, it's like not a they're not settling to incorporate that or make that choice In their day, which I don't think with better butch they are So I think that that will take time to prove out But you know, there's studies after study after study, especially coming out There's one last week from stanford that was Basically comparing fermented foods like a kombucha Versus other products that are just like high in fiber because that's another big trend And what they found was the high in fiber didn't do a whole lot for biodiversity But the fermented foods also had a lot to do with biodiversity and also decreased inflammation markers So that's the big I mean things that we've believed in and known inherently over the years are becoming Are getting finally proved out through clinical research And I think the more that that happens the more people Understand why they should drink something like a kombucha And uh this day and age like who doesn't have an issue with inflammation, right? Like I think I think like How easy are we solving that by making better butch something to just pick over a soda, you know So I think when you do that you're talking about the soda market, which is 250 billion So literally 250 times the kombucha side market. So I really do believe kombucha is just in the very early innings And I think it will take a brand like better butch too broad in the category We can't do it ourselves probably but it'll certainly take products like ours to help You know expand and attract new people into the category. So I'd like to see that through You know, I want to see I would like to see kombucha reach its full potential the brewery. We're opening. They have a naturally fermented Beer essentially and so they go back to like the old world belgian style methods. Yeah And people drink and they go, oh, this doesn't make me feel bloated or you know And it's like yeah, it takes a lot longer to make right But it's also very clean and then people go it. So you mean beer is processed And it's like heavily actually. Yeah at scale Yeah, and the gluten elements especially like yeah, yeah the control over a lot of that gets lost I learned from arbor master that beer came out of uh Unsafe water. Yeah, yeah Alcohol in general. Yeah in general. Yeah, that's why you know in the time of Jesus They yeah turning water into wine was essential because you couldn't trust the water. Yeah Exactly. Yeah, and they made everyone feel good. There's actually a lot of philosophies on that There's a I guess there's a lot of thought around people should continue to drink just because we've been Like a little bit a day, right? Just like throughout the day. It's actually pretty okay to have some alcohol because that's what we've been accustomed to Yeah, a little bit. I mean a little bit could be a nutrient Transmitter basically in your body and it can it can also help extract and make things more bio available Like different like even polyphenols that are in our teeth stuff like that So yeah, we're we're believers that you know in moderation. It does hold a place I also want to talk about your podcast that you put on our radar. Oh, yeah Yeah, what made you want when did you start your podcast? Well, I didn't start this podcast actually so interestingly enough So this goes back to when I was on tour and I was just I had a lot of downtime Especially sitting on a tour bus and stuff you you just kind of like you start thinking like how can I make more money? I'm just sitting here So I got interested in the stock market, you know, this is like hard to tie back to kombucha to see Sure. Yeah, we're taking a left. Yeah That's okay. Yeah, but interestingly I started learning about the the stock market and It was something I had no idea about and I don't really come from a family. That's very, you know That's just not how they think and so I started going down the rabbit hole on that and through sheer happenstance through a family friend I had this opportunity to have dinner with Warren Buffett and Really ran a one-on-one dinner or it was like a group of folks. Yeah I got like one or two questions in you know, but it was a totally serendipitous moment and so He likes to say that he's a better businessman because he's an investor and a better investor because he's a businessman So I saw it as sort of like this positive feedback loop about the more I started learning about investing I would start I would really recognize In my own company what was making it better or not And so as a as the founder and leader of the company it Was almost like just my educational side of the business to to keep tying What i'm learning back into the business So through that I found a website at the time called Buffett's books because I was really big on Buffett at the time Still am but these two guys who started this website It just had a free course on it and I did the course and then the day I finished the course they launched the podcast and I was like, oh, this is interesting I'll check it out and this is like five or six years ago And I started just listening to the show on my commute once a week when it came out and so You know over time I started doing things like going to Omaha to the Warren Buffett You know Berkshire Hathaway meeting every year that's like the woodstock of business And I started meeting the guys on the podcast and and going to their events and Getting to know them So it's just a show I've listened to for five or six years And it's since then become the number one investing show in the world and they have billionaires on the show like Howard Marx and Bill Miller and all these really amazing people on it And so about six months ago actually about eight months ago now Preston the founder of the show He has gone really all in on bitcoin So he wanted to release a fully bitcoin focus show And so that opened up a slot on the main show and they asked me to if I'd consider hosting it And I was just like absolutely I mean that's kind of a dream of mine that I kind of didn't really Think about too much But like because I didn't really think that was an option But it's already afforded me all these amazing opportunities. I've interviewed, you know, Chamath, Paul Hapetia and Jeremy Grantham and You know, even like being Gordon who's, you know, the founder of EA Sports and on the board of Amazon and and I'm just getting Like this week I interviewed Jim Collins. So if you're familiar with like good to great built-in last So wrapped with Jim Collins for like two and a half hours I mean it was like It's just presenting these amazing opportunities that again I'm taking and putting back into my own business and it's forcing me it's like a forcing mechanism to continue to learn and It's just been a really great thing that I do on the weekend How did you get on their radar? Like you said, you were a fan of the show. You listened to the podcast How did you even get on their radar to be on the shortlist for potential hosts? Yeah. Well, funny enough I had met them at a couple of events and connected. They actually Invested in Better Butch at one point and one of our rounds. So they were, you know, very familiar with who I am Gotcha But I literally had to apply like anybody else And so I emailed them and remember I mean, I remember talking to my wife and she was Because look, I'm a college dropout. I'm not like I don't have like an MBA. I didn't work at golden sacks I'm not like an investing guru In like a traditional way But what I did bring to the table in my mind was a very deep understanding of how Warren Buffett invests because I've studied it for a long time And I did come from the entertainment world. So I do have some, you know, familiarity with talking and you can have the company Being familiar with people and so I thought I was kind of uniquely qualified and so I threw my hat in the ring And you know, I did everything from having to submit like an intrinsic value assessment of a stock and things like that And uh, yeah, I just kind of went from there. So I apparently I built a beat out a professor from Harvard They told me so at some point. So, you know, you're probably more interesting I don't I think I you know, if I had to and you have practical knowledge I think that's something that gets I think that's all it is. I think it's that was the appeal was like our listeners are not Very academic either like they're they're usually people who have made some good money But they don't like they're like trying to learn like I am you're one of them. You're on what kind of one of them Yeah, so I think that was just the appeal was, you know, that's a smart On their part. I mean frankly, no to be honest. I mean, that's that's a tough decision that I think the optics could be oh really but in some way they were looking at the bigger picture Warren Buffett, I would say I credit all his books Warren Buffett wealth and a whole bunch of them and Charlie Munger on like my financial understanding Yeah, to be honest, like I was not no one around me and my family knew finance. We had moved here from Peru So I had like nobody that had I could point to and say oh this person made money Investing in anything other than survival, right? And so there was like nothing on the table and I would just like this is why I don't read fiction I think I'm all non-fiction. Yeah, and so you mentioned all the authors I'm very familiar with and I've just like read all those books and since I was 10 I was just like naturally interested And uh, I literally credit a lot of my own financial IQ with those books Yeah, it gave me a window and yeah as a real estate developer. I'm like, oh, this is you know It helps it helps, but there's a natural curiosity and I think that's honest And that's probably what people connect to is my guess when they hear you You know, whether this is true or not I like the belief that investing is 5% Intelligence or knowledge and 95% just temperament and you know psychology So I try to I try to focus on that like the information is available to almost everyone It's just a lot of that buy-and-hold stuff, especially it's just about temperament. That's totally true Everyone wants to make a quick buck. Yeah, and that's not how things operate. Yeah, fortunately I'm just looking for the next stock that's going to the moon Nick the other day what I do what this was a while back. You were like, hey, did you buy uh Game stop game stop And I was like absolutely nah Yeah, I was like, what are you talking about and then and then we ended up in this debate and I was like do it again I'm like, what have you learned? What have you learned other than you go on twitter? How do you replicate that? Yeah, I'm like stop I'm like stop. I'm like if you can do it twice. I'm a fan and I'll commit to learning But if you can't then it's so silly. Yeah, what you said earlier though about podcasting affording you opportunities that you wouldn't have like I know this is a little bit meta talking about this on a podcast But it is so true and hit pretty close to home for for me because You're not aware when you first start podcasting like of of where it's going to take you But it's afforded us the opportunities to meet with cool people like yourself and just have conversations and just really Enrich our knowledge in in a field that we are interested in So like no matter what your podcast is about as long as you are a curious individual You will go So many places that you'd never dreamed and I think that's really cool to to Hear your opinion of that as well because it's very much the The spirit that we embody on this show as well The way like from what I've read or learned from other folks success really boils down to persistence, you know on the business side And then on the leadership side, it seems like if you ask anyone who's successful Like what makes a successful leader? They're usually like well, they're continuous learners. That's it. That's basically it's those types of folks who Are ultimately successful because They just have it. I mean even Warren Buffett who's in his early 90s Is still spends most of his day reading and studying. I mean he and same with Charlie So, you know, I think that those two principles are kind of the building blocks for Doing anything great. I think podcasting is like the ultimate shortcut at least for me Like as much as like whenever I talk to founders, it feels like therapy It's also like if I if I don't know anything about your world That's just like a ton of info a firehose of information Yeah, and it's wonderful and afterwards I always feel better I'm like, oh now I know a little bit about that. That's pretty cool Like yesterday we were talking to a therapist about they're using ketamine now To to you're like the tree anxiety and depression and depression and it's working and it's having all of these fabulous There's data and they're creating science and the taboo is kind of getting removed And so he feels like he's writing You know, like the aol bubble in that space and he's just so jazzed up every day to go to work And as a psychiatrist To be talking about innovation is really it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting Yeah, there's been a lot of instances where to be honest like some of the folks we have Maybe I know who they are But I don't know much about them before like a day or two before the interview And it's so funny to go from that To after the interview because not only have done the prep but then having the conversation It's like wow, I have a I have a very good understanding of this person that I didn't before And that always feels really good. That's so true. Are there any gems that you like one two things that you think about The most from your time interviewing these individuals? Um, that's a good question. You mentioned the leadership one. I mean that one was great You mentioned also the business one, you know, how being an investor really makes you a better business person. Yeah Yeah, and I think that's a that's a hard learning. Yeah, um, but it's legitimate. Yeah It's it. Well, what I would say if anything is that and I had the same experience with meeting Warren Buffett What stood out to me so much from that dinner and what I'm what's continuously reinforced with this podcast Is that they're just people, you know, like you see or hear about these folks like even Jim Collins He's a legend and he and I wrapped for like two and a half hour like we had probably spent an hour outside of the recording, you know, just talking and so That is so cool to have someone genuinely curious about you and vice versa and you you go back and go Oh, wow, this person was just like an idea in my mind They're now a living human being that is flawed and funny or whatever, you know, all these things that And being around Buffett like that Made success like that feel more tangible and that's kind of the the other takeaway is like, oh, you did it So I can do it or like, you know, it's it's just that constant read where you're like, you did it and you're really dumb My wife says that to me every day. Yeah, no, no, I'm kidding. I uh No, there's there's honestly everyone I've luckily interviewed so far has been incredibly like beyond brilliant So there is obviously a reminder that you're a mere mortal here and there But just seeing them in the flesh is like enough to be like, oh, wow. Okay. So you're just a human. Yeah That's really cool. I also love what it could do for your business. I mean it to some way, right? Those yeah, there's a lot of parallels connections like a fostered anytime you need investment I'm sure you have at minimum the right advice or advisors that can help you Um solve any problems whether it be financial or otherwise Have you leaned on any of these billionaires that you've met for advice? No, I do I ship them a case as a thank you You know, yeah So a lot of them a lot of them get back to me and say that they really loved it You know, I know Tramoth drinks a lot of kombucha, for example, and he and I talked about that I haven't leaned on them in that way But I have had a couple reach out about like connecting if I if I need advice on stuff So that does you know has presented itself to be potentially helpful in the future Well, let's end on what's next for better butch Yeah, so what's next for better butch? Uh, we are Expanding in a big way. So we just launched nash lane sprouts and We just launched also in walmart And just got expanded from 100 doors to 500 doors there And that kind of ties back to that mission of you know entering the midwest a bit more as well And um, you know, everyone lives 10 miles from a walmart So it's a good place to be and in the meantime We think that we can be within within arms reach more in california as well. So Actually california has been a huge focus of ours and will be for the next six months Just you know, we're looking at our top stores and what makes them so great And it's usually because better butch is found and the radius around it, you know pretty heavily And so we're trying to replicate that make sense. Yeah, I mean we talk about making kombucha more approachable And especially to the midwest market walmart is a huge inroad to that I mean you think about like yeah, you're in whole foods and sprouts and those those are great sorts to be in But if you're if you're that person who shops at walmart, you might not even step foot And yeah, it's totally different and we actually, you know, in some ways I think that better butch is Built for that more conventional mass channel like we are we did just launch in Ralph's this last week And I'm I'm really curious to see how that does it's a more conventional channel and conventional shopper is the you know industry term But the fact that we're at a lower price point and that we're in a can and that we're a very a clean label and All these things I think potentially present themselves as a as a vehicle to You know get adoption from those customers and so that's the thesis so I'm curious to see if that plays out We've already done really well in the natural channels like you mentioned and I think you have to win there first I do think I think you got to have the the fans out of natural to be your You know cheerleaders, but um, I am curious to see if we connect in other in other channels And so far we've seen it happen in walmart and we'll see if that continues. How much is it? Uh, usually two ninety nine. Oh nice. Yeah, most retailers. It's two ninety nine. So super affordable Yeah, and it's not that it's any less premium or any less potent than any other kombucha It's just that the can helps us afford a lower price point Sure and we arbitrarily discounted that much as well just to reach more people So could you ever get to a point where you can create a concentrate and then add water I was thinking of that too like pilot plants scattered around the country. Yeah so that is doable and you know, we've Again, like we've innovated a lot. We don't use that approach some brands do and What we've found with it is that it doesn't work unless you're adding juice, which again, we're not big believers in Because when you dilute it like that, it's just very empty. You know, it's an empty body. It's basically just like Acid and water and so you have to kind of Build the body back with things like juice and a lot of brands do that a lot of brands have been successful with that you also are diluting obviously the probiotic benefit and so A lot of brands do that and they add powdered probiotic into it All these things are just more of a formulaic approach that we're just not big believers in because I didn't get in again going back to it. I didn't really get Get into kombucha like, you know, just build a big beverage brand I I got into it because I really believed in the effect of it So I don't want to, you know tamper with the effect of it Sure, you know with our product. Well, thanks for coming on man. This is a blast. I appreciate it Yeah, I really tell everyone where they can find you and and your podcast sure Yeah, well first of all, check out better butch. It's better butch.com Instagrams, you know, all the channels are platforms are slash better butch And butch is spelled b o o c h and then yeah, if you want to find me I'm at, you know, I'm slash trey lockerby on twitter and the podcast is called we study billionaires It's on the investors podcast network. So you can go to the investors podcast.com and find it there Well, thanks a lot trey. Yeah, thank you man. It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it