 Thank you everyone for being here. We'll be starting the meeting very shortly. I think we can begin with introductions. So good morning and welcome to our first panel of our climate change conference on climate change and mass migration in South Asia. We are honored to be in conversation with Dr. Iftikal Iqbal and Dr. Tasneem Siddiqui. Thank you so much for being with us today. My name is Mahika Khosla and I'm a third year student at Tufts University studying political science with the minor in film and media studies. Before I introduce the topic of discussion for today's event, a little about our organization. The Tufts South Asian Regional Committee or SAARC is a student-run academic discourse and research group striving to promote student engagement with social, political, historical and economic affairs of the South Asian subcontinent. SAARC hopes to create a space for students of all backgrounds, ideologies and identities to foster informed engagement with and nuanced awareness of South Asia. If you would like to sign up for our emailing list, please do so with the Google form that will be put in the chat shortly. We would also like to thank the Tufts Institute of Global Leadership for making this event possible. In May 2020, Cyclone Amphan displaced 3 million people and destroyed 2 million homes in India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. This was only the most recent reminder of the grave implications of climate change on migration and displacement in the subcontinent. The large agricultural sector and the densely populated coastal cities in India and Bangladesh make farming and fishing communities especially vulnerable to rising sea levels and temperatures, water shortages and natural disasters such as floods. As you all must be aware, climate change is one of the biggest existential threats facing South Asia today, with India and Pakistan among the top 10 countries most impacted by the changing environment. Today's discussion hopes to explore the effects of climate crisis and climate-related policy on domestic and cross-border migration in India and Bangladesh. Our first speaker for today, Dr. Iftikar Iqbal, is a historian currently based at the University of Brunei in Dar es Salaam. His research interests are environmental and intellectual history in South Asia, how environmental history is interconnected with contemporary climate challenges in the subcontinent and global Muslim mobility since the early modern period. He is the author of the Bengal Delta Ecology State and Social Change and most recently wrote a piece for the Economic and Political Weekly called Governing Mass Migration to Dhaka, Revisiting Climate Factors. A future project Dr. Iqbal is working on, one very relevant to today's discussion, is on the making of the Asia Pacific with a focus on trans-regional migration, imperial and post-colonial policies and the flow of environmental resources. Dr. Iqbal received his MA at the University of Dhaka and his PhD in Cambridge. Our second speaker is Dr. Thasneem Siddiqui, a professor of political science at the University of Dhaka and the founding chair of the Refugee and Migratory Movements Research Unit. Her research interests are climate change adaptation and migration, the causes of international labour migration and developing safe and sustainable cities inclusive of migrants. She led the drafting of the National Strategy for Disaster and Climate-Induced Internally Displaced Persons in Bangladesh, the National Overseas Employment Policy 2006 and was a committee member that prepared the first draft of the Overseas Employment and Migration Act of 2013. She is also in the Global Editorial Board of the Oxford Journal of Migration Studies. We will now have our speakers give four to five minutes of opening remarks each, followed by a moderated discussion for about 30 to 35 minutes. Finally, we will have an audience Q&A section, moderated by Meera Ruhera. So, I think Dr. Siddiqui, you can begin with your opening remarks. I would like to start by thanking you for providing us this opportunity to talk on South Asia and particularly, you know, recent Amphan event in the backdrop. Since I would like to talk about migration and climate change that may induce migration or that is inducing migration, I would like to concentrate on this issue. So, main issue that comes into my mind is till date there is this two group who is still fighting whether climate change, you know, whether migration is a failure of adaptation to climate change or migration can be. I think maybe there might be some technical issues with Dr. Siddiqui on her end. Maybe Dr. Iqbal, you could begin with your opening remarks until we, oh, never mind. Dr. Siddiqui is back, apologies for that technical issue. You were saying Dr. Siddiqui, I think you're muted if you could just unmute. Yes. So, what I was saying that, you know, within these two groups, I think time has come to come out and think of migration is one of the outcome of climate change, and instead of looking at it as a threat, it can be seen as an adaptation to climate change. And also, because of this fear that migrants would all come to cities and mega cities like Dhaka, Chittagong or Bombay, Delhi, these are not, you know, capable of handling migrants. So therefore, migrants should stay back in the areas of origin where you have climate and other disasters hitting continuously, and local level adaptation is pursued by most of the government, South Asian government. So, in that backdrop, I think time has come to think about the whole issue of urbanization. And in the context of urbanization, climate change can be one of the stressors that let people to move into urban areas. But on the contrary, if you look, there are certain full factors which are always ignored. It's, you know, climate change is creating a situation and other economic, social exploitation is creating a situation where people move. But at the same time, if you think the type of development that is taking place, very much mega centric city development and growth hubs are one or two growth hub. Instead of that, if we think of decentralization and secondary city development, and then taking development to different urban peripheries. So maybe that's where the future lies. And in creating cities, safe and sustainable for migrant induced or otherwise, whoever is coming to city like me, like, you know, any other person when it comes to the poor people, that's when we become very conscious and try to think, become, you know, try to patronize and think that they would like to stay in their places of origin, but that is not the case. 80% of the migrants would like to move and take benefit of development wherever growth is. So I'll stop here. Thank you, Dr. Sibiki. And now Dr. Iqbal, if you could give your opening remarks. Thank you. I would like to echo Dr. Sibiki. Thank you, Mira and Mahika for having me here in your series. The mainstream coverage of Bangladesh scenario in terms of climate change is quite clear. The World Bank predicts that the displacement of up to 13 million people by 2050 in Bangladesh is going to take place. National Geographic magazine corroborates by noting that climate change in Bangladesh is number one driver of internal migration and recent literature also like from one last year suggest that at least 700,000 people have been displaced due to climate change in the last decades. And a fellow at Woodrow Wilson Center recently also talked about clear and present danger of climate induced displacement in South Asia in general, but in which Bangladesh is going to be a regional ground zero for climate migration. So this is in the mainstream is quite clear, but I think these warnings are significant and we need to take into considerations in any serious discussions, particularly in the context of Bangladesh. But more nuanced literature are also coming out beyond the apocalyptic visions. Max Martin just a few months ago published a book last a few months ago actually that shows that climate or environmental or climate changes may also lead to some kind of immobility, as well as a mobility trap. So I'm not a scientist or a climatologist. So my comments are limited to social science and basis and and from that perspective, I would suggest that there is significant difference between Trumpian, you know, negation of climate change and social scientific skepticism about the meta narrative of the climate change. I would suggest that there is there is no environmental challenges that is not connected to social economic and political relations on the ground in South Asia in general and Bangladesh in particular. And therefore, think that there is the need to explore the social and and political factors that cause environmental decline and which hinders sustainable solution to these problems. So climate change and displacement and mobility need to be discussed within these broader premises. So I will stop there for now. Thank you, Dr. Iqbal. So for our first question, I'd like to go off something that Dr. Siddiqui talked about in her opening remarks about looking at secondary cities and a more decentralized system as a solution to this problem of migration. Dhaka is one of the most densely populated cities in the world with 45,000 people per square kilometer and a population growth rate of 4%. Scholars and social scientists argue that the primary reason for this is the influx of migrants from rural to urban and urban areas. How my climate induced, induced displacement affect these mega cities like Dhaka in the long run. Is this massive migration flow detrimental or beneficial to the economic and social fabric of cities like Dhaka. And either of you, Dr. Iqbal and Dr. Siddiqui can begin. Dr. Siddiqui, please. Thank you. I would say it's both. You can answer it can be answered both way. It is true that, you know, the growth that is taking place in Bangladesh economic growth that is taking place to main city Chittagong and Dhaka and migration data if you look into 80% of the migrants in Bangladesh actually come to Dhaka and Chittagong. Rest of them go to other cities or other areas. So therefore there is a heavy sort of flow towards Dhaka city. But then again, so development Dhaka and Chittagong development, the growth what you are experiencing that needs migrant workers as a workforce, and it will, you know, development, induced development. But on the other side, if you look into the scenario that whether are these cities sustainable. Are these cities migrant friendly. Is there any place for these migrants in the city. They're completely invisible. You just can't see them. They're just workforce. You treat them as economic entity. You don't treat them as social entity services or any kind of education health, all of the services if you think from the migrants perspective, I would say these cities are not sustainable. They're not about city as a whole. And, you know, when you talk about migrants, then you think about their no homogenous identity. You have, you know, gender difference in the type of challenges that migrants face in an urban location. Women, they would identify childcare as the main problem, when they are going to work in the governments and other industries. They are unprotected and they will talk about minimum space for playing for other purpose and schooling and everything is absent. So, then again, certain areas where they leave water logging and, you know, trapped population, which Dr. has just mentioned, some of them are trapped in certain areas and waterlogged areas with other things. And if you think of Chittagong landslides, they usually stay in the foothills. And that's where landslide is a major problem that they go through. So, then again, you go about ethnic community, indigenous population, when they come into urban areas, social congregation and other things. There is no place for them. So if a city is sustainable, when it is sustainable for all population group. And here it is not there. And the other issue is that, you know, city as a whole, city as a whole, I think decentralization is the main thing that Dhaka or, you know, Chittagong, these cities should go into and then again, you know, urban peripheries, that's fair and connectivity. In the context of India, connectivity did the change. In Delhi and Bombay, a lot of problem of migration has been, challenges of migration has been solved by, you know, developing peripheral urban areas and then connecting them with a very low cost. Here you don't have, that is why roads are clogged, that is why cities are unlivable and per square feet you have already mentioned. So I'll stop here. Thank you, Dr. Siddiqi. If you have anything else to add, Dr. Iqbal, that would be great. I think, in general, I would agree to what Professor Tasthim Siddiqi has mentioned now. I think this is the scenario and she is an expert on that. So I really agree to her observations here. Thank you. Dr. Iqbal, you've previously written on the three primary strategies that the Bangladeshi government uses to tackle climate-induced displacement. The compensationist, the adaptationist and the distributor of justice method. Could you speak more about what these approaches mean and what effective and migrant-centered policy should look like in response to this crisis? I think Bangladesh is at the center of many diverse debates on climate change and these are three, these three are among, among many other thoughts. I was just trying to kind of examine and explore deep, little deeper in my EPW article. The compensationist model is based on a sense of victimhood, suggesting that developing countries are not responsible for global warming. So the developed countries that are responsible for the largest amount of carbon emission should be financially, should financially compensate for those who are affected by climate change. So this model, however, is not clear about how to work out the compensation from those European and North American countries which contributed to carbon emissions historically after, particularly after the industrial industrial revolutions and those first developing countries which are leading such emissions currently, like India and China. So there is this issue also. The adaptationists have completely resigned to the idea that climate change is already a settled fact. And this is increasingly becoming the sole determinant of many years of our time, not least displacement and migration. Since there is no way to prevent it, so it is better to attain and promote the skills and tools to adapt to climate change. And the more apocalyptic the climate change discourse becomes, the adaptationist approaches could gain more ground in that sense. This is also an important perspective in the current climate change debates. The concept of distributive justice in the context of displacement and migration issue is a pragmatist one that focuses on the need to make accessible or distribute existing resources to the marginalized, extremely poor, landless and homeless people. And to whom this remain inaccessible or taken away. Despite the fact that Bangladesh is a country with with high density of population, there are enough spare land as newly formed alluvial lands or chores, but millions of people remain vulnerable without a stake in these available resources and lands. So, in a to just to give an example more than 35% of about 180 million people in Bangladesh are living below $2 per day and and the COVID-19 situation have has, you know, made met the scenario of wars. There are more than 3 million acres of government land that remain undistributed and underused. So, to your question of effective and migrant center centric approaches. I think that the team can also enlighten more on this. I just add here that that none of the above approaches that I mentioned need to cancel each other. Actually, all these approaches could be synchronized to support at the marginalized people who bears most of the burnt of environmental challenges. However, I would prioritize the distributive justice model as the base for an integrative and holistic approach to the climatic and other immediate art bound environmental problems. So, I hope I have covered your question. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Siddiqi, would you like to add on or respond to that. I think he is quite clear about what he said, only one sentence I can add like our research finding shows again Max Martin. And jointly we did a project it's a year is ESRC funded project and there our finding was that those households have done better in climate affected areas who have combined migration and local level adaptation together. There are a few members going into urban areas and sending remittances. And at the same time, you know, at a local level there are certain avenues that family members are using when you combine that that is a good method of adaptation. And I think that's where distributive justice and other things that Dr. if the car has brought in, it's, it's, it works well. Thank you. I have a follow up question for both of you you both talked about adaptationist policies that are local in nature so could you give us some examples of what these policies look like in terms of recommendations. I think being in Brunei and you are in Dhaka and you have been in the thick of things. So I think you are the best person to answer that because you are really into this, please. No, no, not really you are really good and you are really modest. Okay, I'll just start and you can come in. If you think about all the policies that we have in the context of Bangladesh, or India I wouldn't say they are much different. Pakistan Sri Lanka policies are similar. And if you think like Napa national adaptation action plan, all these most of these countries have and there what do you have they in in that policy they just see adaptation, you know, means that no one is going out and people staying wherever they are supposed to be their origin is, and even when they come into city, the whole idea is, they will there will be, you know, drug problem, and other problems will increase, there will be, there will be you know all these things. So, with migration straight away you link these this particular policy straight away linked migration with crime, and this whole criminalization of migration very subtly take place into in different policies, and this attitude of patronization. It is very much there in other countries as well, and then come into national adaptation action plan. That is, BCC SAP but you know, there you go and there is this whole attitude is that okay Western countries have created this problem, migration is taking place. So we should have a way of sending them abroad. This is a completely out of focus out of it's like a, what should I say that that is no in a policy you can't have that type of statements. So, and the whole thing it discussed about migration, monitoring migration, monitoring, trying to look where it is happening. So it's like a threat, it's like a, it's not a challenge, you can treat it as a challenge that needs to be, you know, solved, but you can't treat it as a threat. And as if, you know, the climate induced, and otherwise, I always say and otherwise certain policies directly make people, you know, poor, a certain, what Dr is the car was just saying that, you know, there are land. Then again, there are land. You forget about that. But whatever land these people have. These are very much in a, you know, riverine country that in one side it breaks that other side is emerges when land is emerging in the other side. The law and everything say it is the people who lost in this site will get that land. But then now with this, you know, sand business with this dredging, wherever there is new chore is emerging. Sand dunes are emerging that there are a lot of business people who are taking this sand and in the urban areas for urbanization for development building construction and everything. So these people are losing their own land. It's very much their right to be there. So that right is not recognized. And in the name of development, you support dredging of their land, because legally, they can't fight. They don't have the money and civil society organizations here in Bangladesh. It's unlike India. This is what I like about India is civil society organizations are very much, you know, power. What should I say, right based, but here we have become more a service delivery. The donor communities have made us service deliverer. So we don't question the status quo. We just say okay, whatever adaptive income generating activities we can do we go and do, but we don't organize them for their land right. So whoever goes to organize them like Rampal against Rampal. There is a big movement in Bangladesh this, you know, cold, you know, power that is being done in Sundarban that is being done like, you know, it's like our Prime Minister said that this is a kind of, you know, Indian government. It's like, what should I say, friendship thing they're offering. Just think of it. It's creating so much disaster in Sundarban. But, you know, the civil society is strong, but then nothing can be done. Nothing can be done. So it is not only climate change. It is also human induced development that is combining creating a situation which is leaving a unlivable Bangladesh or India or Sri Lanka in the in South Asia. Dr. Siddiqi, Dr. Iqbal, would you like to add anything? Yeah, I think Dr. Siddiqi has has covered, I think, all the ground we need to cover in a very interesting way and I think the thing that she has emphasized on the combination. I mean, the thinking of climate change as well as immediate outbound problem created by human and in the political and social arena, I think this is key to contemporary climate debates, I think. And I would also like to add that and just add with Dr. Tasnim in terms of the adaptation is that it doesn't, this is not as innocent as it sounds that somebody is affected and we need to adapt ourselves to something new situation. Actually, there are a lot of dangers and challenges in the process of adaptation, as Dr. Tasnim mentioned. So I think these things need to be in consideration. So beyond the hard science of climate change, you need to think of the softer social and, and, and, and intellectual and all these issues together. Thank you. Thank you. You both discussed the implications of development on climate change and displacement. So it's, it's evident that aside from the gradual changes in the climate, such as rising sea levels and temperature. It is evident that development and infrastructure have profound impacts on the subcontinent ecology from the construction of dams and the pollution of freshwater sources to the filling up of wetlands like you mentioned. So what are the implications of development projects on forced migration in South Asia, and how can policymakers balance the need for economic and industrial development with the problem of forced displacement. Ithika, you want to start. Okay, if you if you allow me. Okay. So, I think I would just answer part of your question, particularly in connection to the dams probably mentioned by right. Yeah, I think this this this is this is particularly important question migration and displacements in Bangladesh is currently taking place, mostly because of this loss of livelihood due to manmade structures like barrages and dams. Bangladesh, I think there are many other issues but still, since Bangladesh, there's probably not many dam or multipurpose dam issues, it might come come in the future, in the context of geopolitics that's a different issue. But this is happening in in many Indian rivers that is coming to Bangladesh which is, which is about 54 rivers that are coming to Bangladesh from India. So India is at the upper has got the upper hand. So, what's the implication of that. It's it's clear that for a coverage and this the dams have have totally shattered the, the lively ecological zones. Historically created by the but the and and the system systems erosion flooding due to sudden release of water in rainy seasons. In drawing of water during the dry season, these are all very so common, common part of common knowledge now, all these have laid to loss of paddy lands and fisheries and so on. In the last few decades in, in, in, in, in, in northern and not, not western part of Bangladesh. And that is leading people to move to urban centers like Dhaka. Let's, let's face this with an empirical note, there are more than, I think, Dr testing can correct me, more than 1.5 million Dixia pullers in Dhaka city, at least, and, and this comprise about 10% of cities population. They are economically, you know, active, being at the forefront of micro transportation system. But they are at the same time, most peripheral population in Dhaka urban landscape. Now, where, where do they come from. I myself in my conversations whenever I'm in Dhaka with them found that a majority of them come from northern and not Western Bangladesh, not the coastal Bangladesh, where the climate change is supposed to be hitting hard. So that's to clarify further, let me just refer to a 2018 survey conducted by a leading research organization in Dhaka. They were kindly, they were kind enough to provide me with this at my request after you contacted me. So of the eight administrative divisions in Bangladesh. Chittagong, Bodhisattva, Khulna, and to a certain extent Dhaka are coastal divisions. Rangpur and Rashahi are located in the north and northwest bordering, you know, India, which face the full impact of dams and barrages upstream in India. Now this 2018 survey shows that only 28% of the riksha pullers in Dhaka come from the four coastal divisions and 58% come from the two divisions bordering India. And that is with the area which are, you know, impacted by these barrages and dams across the border. So there is no immediate climate change factors here, climate change issues can only cloud this, this reality, actually. So to your question, I think internal displacement in Bangladesh is happening because of challenges generated both inside Bangladesh and outside of India in this case. And we also need to note that India has as far greater stake in Bangladesh than is usually acknowledged in the policy circle. If northwestern and not northern Bangladesh continues to suffer ecologically, due to in lateral control of waters. And if the migration move migrants actually move to the west to Kolkata instead of moving to east to Dhaka, the border might burst at the seam, but thankfully, at this time, Bangladesh is life standard and an economic growth rate is is better than as economists, including professor on what they're saying. And institutions like IMF are showing right now. So, in a way what I'm trying to say that there is a there is room for conversations about the reverse as commons, not as as property of the common states at this nation states. So I think, although there are some titties are in place but some titties like this that this that it is not yet coming for the last 20 years or so. There are a lot of discussion I think this is not a problem of Bangladesh or India as a state but the problem of people who are living around this ecological commons like reverse both in India, and in Bangladesh. So I think there is a there is a lot of room for conversations at different level and different among different stakeholders to talk about this to think about common humanity, rather than, you know, the structure of powers at within the nation states. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Siddiqui would you like to add anything. Just, I think I think he was eloquent he he mentioned all the issues. I can just add an example. Oshox when did a research quite sometimes ago about, you know, for, you know, people moving to Delhi, his research was Bangladesh is moving to Delhi, and he found that I don't remember the actual figure around 70 to 75% of those who have migrated to India for work for livelihood from different are from, you know, Farakadam, you know, close to Farakadam areas. So his whole argument was that, although we think national interest, but then again, the national interest actually may not serve the national interest of anyone, we are thinking that we are pursuing, but actually, you know, it creates like border and other things if we don't treat things from a regional perspective, then it creates new forms of problem. And if you think now 70 deaths are being created by China, which will affect India. So if you think that, you know, if that cooperation between Bangladesh and India is not there, then how do you, you know, deal with issues of 70 deaths, which will affect later first India then Bangladesh. Oh, so these things are, I would say very important considerations where regionalism should come in a major way, and I will just add with Dr if the car a little that yes, all these issues those who are coming to Dhaka and Chittagong, even in Chittagong also, like, you know, they are people are not moving from coastal areas in Chittagong to some extent from CHT and other areas but then again in Chittagong people are going from other different, you know, to Rajshahi those people are also going there. So, what I'm saying that it is true but then again climate induced migration is taking place, maybe from Sundarban area to Jaisur to Khulna, they are migrating to those areas, but Rajshahi area earlier they moved a lot because of they were affected by the dam. They, the main thing became, you know, migrating to India, and from Jaisur as well migrating to India. India means then not Kolkata. Through Kolkata they straight away go to Delhi to work in the, as a rat picker and their wives as, you know, domestic workers. So these two combination is very much needed because there is a niche in Delhi market crisis of providing these two services because of caste system and other things from Jharkhand people used to come to do these services. Now, you know, these people, not now the study that we did maybe it was quite sometimes ago, but then what happened this securitization of border and then this whole fencing, border fencing and everything has created and then in Bangladesh certain changes happen. So those who were going to India, now they are coming to different cities, and from Rajshahi particularly, it's a specialization migration is always about specialization. So they are all concentrating on raw binding certain job of construction construction boom is everywhere in Dhaka city in close by cities that that's where these people are earlier they used to commute to India, work in those areas come back at night. So these people are now coming to Dhaka. So, in a way it's an inward movement and market labor market has, although it's a, you know, it should be treated as integrated labor market, because of securitization you do see more migration towards the cities of Dhaka. So I would just add with Dr if they cut this much. Thank you so much. Your comments have unfortunately brought me to my last question of the moderated discussion. You both talked about increased migration flows to Kolkata and Delhi, and you also talked about the securitization of borders which is a fascinating topic in itself. Recent research, notably in the journal called population and environment suggests like you said that while cross border migration from Bangladesh due to climate change is low today, it may increase in the coming coming years due to the high urban density in cities like Dhaka. Do you foresee this happening and what might this mean for regional cooperation in South Asia to combat the challenges of climate change. This might start, you may add later. I would, I would just treat the issue as, as, yes, there is possibility that a section of people will move to India. There is again, same possibility, a large group of people will move from India to Bangladesh. If you think Bangladesh is the fifth largest remittance sending country of India. The Indian state bank over the last 10 years. It's all along like in, in, when you consider this whole data, Middle East is a big thing to us, because we receive foreign exchange from Middle East by sending our labor migrants there. So in development and everywhere remittance we treat as very important. Then in Indian context, if five percent, you know, a fifth largest remittance sending country is Bangladesh. So you can realize how much migration is taking place from India to Bangladesh. I would say, I think this is a quite a positive trend. I look at it as an integrated labor market issue. People will move from this side to that side, and people will move from that side to this side. And if that can be brought in under certain legal framework, which currently we don't have, instead of securitizing, militarizing, if we can think of a sort of integrated method, regional labor movement policies, if we can do those things, and that should be the future. We cannot just think that, you know, it's a threat, people will move. Moving of people is not a threat. Management is the threat, because we are communalizing the issue continuously we communalize. So this communalization when we stop, securitization when we stop, real problem solving scenario will emerge. Thank you, Dr. Siddiqi. Dr. Iqbal, do you have any final comments? Yeah, I think that's interesting comments from Dr. Siddiqi. Absolutely. I think there is a paradigm shift here that we hardly see that Bangladesh can be also not at the sending end but also receiving end. So I think this is important and I'm glad that Maika you just referred to what stands as a reasonable proposition that I quote from actually, if I remember that cross border migration from Bangladesh, due to climate change is rare today. This is just the opposite that is highlighted in the media and political circle, especially in India. Logically, we cannot deny such migrations are happening and it's happening. But this is only to the extent people from India are also migrated to Bangladesh as I just mentioned very eloquently. I have met people from India as Uber drivers in Dhaka couple of years ago, as well as attendants in the lounge in Dhaka airport. I was surprised, but then I realized that this is really not surprising. And you'd find Bangladesh is in similar circumstances in Bombay and Kolkata and Delhi, maybe more in number, actually. But if there is any truth in claims that a section of poorer Bangladeshi migrants is crossing over, which is increasingly becoming difficult as borders are looking like even more dangerous than the Mexican borders. It's not because of climate change but because of the fallout from for the infrastructural development upstream, as we just discussed, but the repercussion will not only be felt in Kolkata but also in Dhaka. And there is no reason to look at these challenges from nationalist perspective or Hindu Muslim communal perspective, it is, it is an environmental challenge that impact everyone, especially the marginalized people on both side of the fence. I will just finish with a note from Dr. Tasnim is that they are probably either Sark should be revived or in some way a securitization, securitized mechanism that will enable free flowing, you know, just free flowing mobility between Indians and beyond in other countries in South Asia. I mean, why don't you think about it we had the infrastructure from our conceptual framework from Sark for long time ago, it's just dormant. Thank you. Thank you so much Dr. that brings us to the audience question and answer section of our event. Over to you Mira. Dr. Bal and Dr. Siddiqui thank you so much for your responses I really enjoyed the nuance in the way I'll answer the questions. I'm going to move on to the audience questions that we've got many of them and because of time we might not be able to address all of them. So I'm going to try to get as many as we can. I'm the first is from Salim Ali from the University of Delaware. He writes I'm a tough Salam class of 94 fellow jumbo, and currently working on a global assessment of on on on the natural resources linkages to human mobility for the national resource panel. What do the speakers think are the key resource drivers for Bengali migration, for example lack of lack of arable land or water, as well as inhibitors such as lack of energy and cities in this regard. Are we also seeing any urban to rural return. Do you want me to answer or. Okay. Like, the question is, what, what drives migration, I think, what is driving migration at the at present. I would say migration is a complex process, and many things are driving. It's not only the negative things that you know, agrarian land is there, you know, irrigation water I cannot buy all these things. So these are, of course, these are also reason, but then again, aspiration, you know, then the social network that allow people to take adventure to take a new sort of chance to rebuild life. So all these things are under emphasized currently, whenever you think in our part migration is always because of negativity, because of, you know, hardship, but not really people want to bring in change in their life. And that is important, and return migration does take place. But we hardly did enough research on return migration. Usually, you know, retirement migration is quite common, but then again, we have not done much research on that. Thank you. Yeah, I think, of course, there is this complex situation we, we are so much into the, the discourse of climate and climate and climate that we, we, we sometimes forget that every human human human being has, has desires has expectation has pull factor and pull and in a push factor, although these are cliche word nowadays in anthropology and social science but these are there. So I think we need to bring in multiple, multiple factors here. And at the same time, in a, in, in, in, in countries where democratic rules and, and, you know, and, you know, these democratic rules and rules of law, where we weaker than people also feel insecure in politically in many, many ways. So they, they also some of, sometimes they, they, they feel pressured and I, I know if for example in, in, in Brunei in Qatar in many other places I met and talk to working plus people and, and some of them feel that they are not safe. For some reason, so there are a whole lot of issues political economic social, and even emotional issues. So, these are, these are the things that we need to be led to, you know, bring in into the, into the debates. Quickly moving on to the next question. It's from an anonymous attendee. They write using euphemism to describe the state of democracy in Bangladesh has constrained. Where does the current government find the incentive to respond to this question comprehensively. Does the longevity of a single party in power help this issue through continuation and long term planning, or does the lack of political political incentive hurt this fight. If you ask me I'll answer in two words, that it's, we are unlucky everywhere. Unlucky in all in most of the South Asian countries. What are we seeing in Bangladesh rule of law democracy, you can see that it's a how the major major, the political party has been in power over the last three consecutive elections without giving the two election without completely reading the election so when rule of law is not there when democracy is not there, then it is very easy to ignore the real demand, real interest of the state and then to, you know, go on doing things like celebration of 100 years of nation of the father. These things are more prioritized and political agenda is more prioritized. And if you think of the communal politics on Rovinga issue the way Modi government treated and the way. So that same thing it's the, it's the, like, okay, within India, I'm not discussing the Muslim issue, but then again, breaking the Rohingya population as security threat as, you know, what do you call the, you know, terrorists and others. So this is this labeling other in this is going on everywhere and that is not really providing the solutions accountability is not there. And that's what creating problem in our part in all of South Asian civil society, they are facing the same problem citizens are facing the same kind of problem. If you think the way it's the it's the same issue of this, you know, citizenship, then again, and you know this national registration card, these are similar things in a, either in the name of democracy, or in the name of a kind of distorted democracy, you get these things. Yeah, I think I, I share the same premise in which that's name is talking about, I just add that it is important to to hear the voice of the marginalized and the vulnerable in the society, but to ensure that we need to have in a democratic system, free and fair regularly. And, but that is not enough. When that is secured, probably we need to institutionalize the, the, the rule of law and and democratic order. So I think this is everybody will agree, even, even those who run the country will agree that there are certain lack of all these elements that make democracy liberal democracy. So I think that is where we, we all can pray and hope. Yes. So because of time we can ask, I'm going to ask one last question, this is also from an anonymous attendee. Are there any US organizations who are helping bring solutions. If so, what are their greatest needs of talent skills business and experience US organization. You said US organization. Yeah, I guess, I guess the question is trying to ask like, what is American involvement in migration and I guess, what advice would you have for students of our age trying to get involved in helping the crisis. I would say this, you know, all of us should now try to concentrate on harmony and then this whole issue of other in this other in if we can stop in every way, ethnicity, caste, religion, because the way we other and then create our own silo. I think students can come out, you know, help others to come out of that. And, you know, Western countries, if you think, even like, you know, Trump is not there, and you could see Camilla and others are in the immigration policy already quite, you know, a lot of significant changes are being proposed in the United States. So, I do see some positive things coming. And of course, the, you know, UK is still in a very conservative kind of mode, but students are the one who actually create demand for a better rule of law better kind of, you know, situation for everyone for the migrants for diaspora for citizens. So I think students are the one where we hope that they'll keep the demand for justice. I think the United States is is very important. I can play a very important role and it's a good sign that United States have got back to climate negotiations with new administration so all these are looking good. And to what extent that connects to Bangladesh, I'm not sure but Bangladesh and the United States have a close relation development relation development partners. So how that pans out in the post-Trump era, we'll have to see. That ends this panel. Thank you so much, Dr. Iqbal and Dr. Siddiqui. We really appreciate you taking out the time to come and speak with us today. I have sent two links to the chat. One of them is to be added to our e-list. So, if any attendees or panelists would like to join our e-list to get updates about our future events, please fill that in. And second, I've sent a link to the entire climate change conference that you can take a look at. We have three more panels coming up with our next panel starting in about an hour on water policy in South Asia, which we touched upon a lot in this panel. So that's going to be an interesting continuation. Our panelist for that panel is Dr. Shafiqullah Islam and Dr. Dhanesh Mustafa. So please do join us for that. I wish I could, but it's midnight now. I wish I could. I wish I were across Atlantic now. We'll listen to them later. They'll be recorded and they'll be, we'll definitely listen to them. I'll look at them and we'll try to join and also from our research unit, I'll ask them to, if they are interested, to let you know so that you can give the link to them. I'll listen to that and watch that in the morning. Wonderful. Thank you very much. I really enjoy and particularly seeing Dr. Iftikar and this young lady, a lot of enthusiasm is there in their eyes. So thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. I hope I hope we can have you speak with us again in the future. Of course. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.