 Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker, and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. We are in San Francisco on this spectacularly sunny day. We're excited to welcome to theCUBE some guys from Red Hat. We've got Ben Breard, Senior Technical Product Manager and Reza Shafi, VPF Platform Services. Guys, thanks so much for stopping by. Thanks for having us. Thank you. So, Reza, you come from the CoreOS acquisition, you've been with Red Hat for about five months. Ben, you've been there about eight years, but I did see online that it's Red Hat's 25th anniversary. You guys have been doing something right for 25 years. Open source, that's what we do. Open source. So talk to us, what's going on at Red Hat, what's new, what's exciting? I mean, open shift is, I mean, that's the big thing, right? I mean, so just, this is a humbling time to be in the industry, like with this container wave and to see the industry adoption that we've had with open shift and like how all the technology in Red Hat's portfolio is just pushing and driving that along, it's, I don't know, it's exciting to me. No, it's very exciting. For us, I think that cultural compatibility between CoreOS and Red Hat has been just fabulous to see and then seeing how Red Hat provides a platform to really extend that and enhance that, it's great, yeah. Culture is key, we talk about culture a lot when in every event we talk about digital transformation, right, and culture is key to that. So maybe Rosa, give us a little bit of perspective. It's been five months now. How has CoreOS been embraced by the Red Hat guys and how are you now living in harmony? Right, well, first of all, CoreOS, we always believed in open source. We were behind many open source projects in the containerized infrastructure space and in that space, especially around Kubernetes, we worked very closely with Red Hat. So we knew each other really well. So as the teams got together, it was very easy for us to really get together and brainstorm towards what are the possibilities and that's what we've been working on and the shovel has been hitting the ground for a while now and we're working on a converged platform that brings tectonics technology to open shift and that's been very exciting as well as bringing the container linux technology together with Red Hat. Some of those announcements happened at Red Hat Summit a few weeks back or a month or so back. Can you talk about it? Have there been any other updates? And also like, okay, maybe go one level deeper. So tectonic was CoreOS's Kubernetes, I don't want to call it, would you call it a distribution, but a lot of autonomic and automation technologies for the operator built into tectonic which was part of CoreOS's core DNA now being brought into kind of the Red Hat platform. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that and some of the recent developments. Yeah, so we're at, it's kind of a phased implementation of bringing those technologies in, right? And so our next quarterly release, right, is going to start, that's where we started bringing in some of the components, right? And then the one after that, it's more on the operator side and then end of the year is when it's fully converged and so that's the path we're on. In terms of Kubernetes in general, Red Hat made a really early bet on Kubernetes and a big pivot for its OpenShift platform. Kind of really embracing, throwing out a lot of the internals and embracing Kubernetes. Here at DockerCon, Kubernetes was a big topic. Docker's doing a lot of integration with Kubernetes. I kind of think that maybe that one size doesn't fit all, but certainly Kubernetes is becoming, accepted a lot more places. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, the implications of that, that this phenomenon? Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a recognition that Kubernetes is not a de facto standard for orchestration. I think even if you go back a year ago, that was probably not quite there, but now I think that sense is there. And I think you're right, like Red Hat embraced that three, four years ago and so did CoroS and we both had to do a big shift, right? CoroS was using fleet before that and we made a shift to Kubernetes. That has paid dividends I think because now we're really focusing on many of the concerns above and beyond just operating Kubernetes itself. It's what you do above the stack and how do you operate everything above the stack? And that's where all the operator framework and everything we've been working on comes in. Yeah, I mean, it's basically how you get value in a more applied technology in a more application-centric way and so it's just been great to see the whole industry really rally around those standards and the APIs and everything and, you know, all the cloud platforms, everything and so it's where the ecosystem is. Let's talk about collaboration. When you're talking with customers, you know, we've talked a lot today and other events too, like our enterprises are spending a lot of money, a lot of their IT budgets on just keeping the lights on on mission-critical applications that they have to have but there's very little budget for innovation which is key to an organization being competitive, being relevant, being a leader. What are some of the customer conversations that you guys are having and what are some of the common barriers to container adoption that you're helping with opening up helping customers to eliminate? Yeah, I can take a shot at it. So essentially, now on Kubernetes, running stateless workload on Kubernetes is something that most people can do, right? Once you get to stateful workload, that starts getting tricky and what we're seeing is that people who have now adopted Kubernetes for a year plus, they're starting to think, how do I run my stateful workload? Databases, back-end stores in a scalable fashion on top of Kubernetes and that's where we're coming in and trying to help people, help the community deliver that really through creation of operators, through creation of reusable business logic that can do that across any Kubernetes environment. Yep, well, I was just going to add onto that. It's like, as far as just keeping the lights on and freeing up resources, right? When you look at all of the path and the deployment models on the net and new stuff, right? We're able to take away a serious amount of operational overhead and just everything to where people can scale and just move way faster, right? And so there's a certain amount of that value that carries over to the traditional stuff, right? And so I think the biggest thing on the customer side is just a mindset and culture change and getting people to change the way they look at the problem, right? And so those things and just understanding security, those are the big topics. Nice, I was at some Red Hat Summit and one of the things that really impressed me there was this promise that we've all been trying to promise the end customer of time to value that you can actually do things faster, that you actually can innovate was actually starting to be real in the sense that all the customer examples were in terms of weeks or months and not years and the app was up and the app was multi-cloud and all those other and so if you could talk a little bit about maybe some customers that are doing that or some examples of that of both time to value and then the fact that a very few number of people were controlling very large infrastructures and I think you were just touching on that in terms of the operators and just all the automation, the day two sort of things. It seems like I kind of think we've turned a corner in terms of productivity and time to value and real life real production workloads. Yeah, absolutely and when you look at where we see adoption be it the financial sector or I mean, it's all over the place, it's really encouraging and so at Summit we had, I don't know, I think like 300 or 200 customer talks, it was insane about going through the use cases and everything, some of the big ones is just seeing from like Amadeus, Optum and everything, it was great. I saw an IDC report I think on the Red Hat website that showed that customers that adopt OpenShift can see a massive ROI, I want to say it was like over 500% ROI within a five year period. Well I think part of, there's multiple factors to that. Part of it comes out of just the sheer power of containerized infrastructure. Instead of deploying applications on a per compute basis and having to map them to single compute nodes, you have the orchestrator that plays that perfect Tetris game with all of your applications. The other part comes a bit out of simplified operations and that's where I think we're just the beginning of the road, there's plenty more work to do on simplifying operations of Kubernetes and that's where I'm most excited about honestly. Nice, let's talk about the future. We are at an inflection point of this container technology, it's becoming more mature, people are in production, multi-cloud is certainly an aspect of what's going on, but I'd love for you to kind of explore a little bit more about some of the tooling, like I don't know if we need to get down into the OCI and the runtime level, but what do we see the tooling doing? So okay, Kubernetes is there, that level is there but what about the build and other things like that? What other pieces of tooling and automation are being developed to help, again, help develop a productivity? Yeah, that's a good one, so I'll take a shot and then we'll, so it's a couple of things. So Kubernetes itself is pluggable on every tier, right? So it's finding that balance of sane defaults and guidance of what works, but then being flexible to work in customer environment so we can lock into whatever kind of build strategy, pipelines and whatever works for the customer and they're frankly different teams, right? Because they all have different levels of maturity and stuff, so that's one thing is just providing that level of flexibility. And the other thing is, like you said, multi-cloud, just the way OpenShift provides that common platform across everything, right? It just abstracts away any of the differences and whatever. Yeah, and we're seeing multi-cloud more and more with our customer base and having a consistent model to deal with every one of them, including around-prem environment, is becoming a bigger deal. In terms of, so on-prem, maybe actually I think it'd be useful, we've been talking about Kubernetes and OpenShift a lot, but maybe let's step up a level and say, okay, OpenShift, how do you decide? So OpenShift has Kubernetes in it, but it's much more. It's a services platform built up off of, you know, RHEL on the bottom all the way up to kind of operators now. Can you talk a little bit about what else, what is some of the special sauce of OpenShift? Yeah, so kind of what I was saying earlier about just like kind of every layer. So we start, you know, like you said, RHEL, right? So the supported bulletproof kernel, right? Up to the runtime, to the, you know, the, like, literally the enterprise Kube distribution is OpenShift. And then what we bring to it is this, like, amazing developer experience, right? And like the secret sauce of where it's going is all of the beauty from the CoroS side on top of that. So, like, we've had the developer story, right? So, like, really prescriptive onboarding of applications is like the power, because an empty cluster is useless, right? So you've got to have that, like, easy path to onboard. And then when we marry that with the day two stuff and all of the, you know, the deployments, the operators, everything, I mean, that's the, that, those pieces coming together is like, what differentiates it? From just a bare kind of Kubernetes, because it can get you part of the way, but there's certainly a lot more. Yeah, it doesn't have any of the developer experience, the web console, the admin console, like none of that stuff exists, right? Yeah, the way I look at it is that the value out comes from two perspectives, right? One is from the system administrators and the infrastructure owners. That certainly comes to day two operations and how much to simplify that. How do you get a consistent interface across different environments? And how do you do things like accountability? Converging everything onto the same cluster, which is really what Kubernetes does, also changes the focus from a cost perspective, for example, from different application owners to a single owner. How do you make sure that that owner is able to say, well, these are the people who are using it and this is how much, we have services on top of Kubernetes in OpenShift that provide you that capability, for example, through metering and charge back. Sometimes people call it metering and shame back. And then from the point of view of developers, there is multiple opinionated ways of simplifying developers' life, right? And any given large enterprise has many, many ways of doing that. And we want to just be ready to address all of them. And by the way, we have our own opinions and we have built that on top of OpenShift as well. So you guys work a lot with developers. We have about five or 6,000 people that are here at this event. I'm curious, when you go to open source events, including your own, are you finding that same mix of developers, IT professionals, enterprise architects and execs? And if so, what is that conversation like at that higher level where there might be checkbooks and keys of the kingdom and a business saying, hey, we have to iterate quickly. What is kind of the mix of conversations that you guys find in these communities? Yeah, it's the difference between strategy, right? And versus like bits, right? So the admin, developer, we want to focus, we want to get into the weeds, right? And then the higher levels, it's all about strategy, direction and enablement and those types of higher level concepts, right? So, I mean, that's, I don't know my perspective. Are you finding that your conversations and maybe education of developers helps them then go up the chain within their organizations to explain this is why we need to do this? I think there's some of that, right? The other thing I left off the list that was the cultural piece because traditional enterprises, they, there's something here that they want to gleam and take home and in the culture space, right? And so that's a, you know, that's the other big one, I don't know. I find that the conversation varies widely, right? So when you talk to the infrastructure administrators and developers, you got to be able to talk very technical and explain to them exactly how all this is working. And they're interested in the future of technology. But when you talk to the CIOs out there and the CTOs out there, really they're interested in the outcome. And when you talk about the outcome, it's easy just to show, like, look, everybody wants to get to a pure DevOps model. Everybody wants to get to a microservices model. This is kind of like going to the gym and seeing the picture of where they really fit people and then saying, well, yeah, but how do I get there, right? And this is where I think a company like Red Hat can come in and say, well, we'll work with you to get you there, right? So that's important. Well, the other one is just the value of being there and talking to your peers in the industry too, right? I mean, yeah, it's us, we're facilitating, but it's peers too, right? Well, you're right, culture. We've talked about that, John, a number of times today, how critical culture is to being able to move past inertia. You know, we mentioned when I kick off the segment that Red Hat is just celebrating its 25th birthday. So I imagine, I know you've been there for eight years, that there's been a lot of change there and a lot of cultural kind of mindset shift. Obviously, Raza coming on the last five months. Give us a little bit of an insight into the Red Hat culture. That's helping to drive the agility that you need to also give your customers. Yeah, this is something our CEO talks about all the time, right? He wrote a book on it, The Open Organization. And, you know, just like lays out like clear values of like transparency, like doing things and like very visually. Like we go through these exercises all the time just for like changing our slogans and brands and these types of things in the way that where everybody participates and everybody takes ownership in it and it's part of it. And so that's one thing. I mean, we've been going through crazy growth. When I joined it was like 3,000 people. Now it's like 12,000 or so. I don't know the exact number, but and so how we scale that culture has been interesting, but it's been really successful. I mean, that's a big part of it. Open was a really clear message from Summit. You know, basically in the cloud, Open has won, right? Open innovation, open source, open culture, that's what's driving all the things we see now, I'd say. Yes. Well, guys, thanks so much, Ben and Reza for stopping by theCUBE and sharing with us what's new at Red Hat, what excites you guys and we look forward to having you back on. Thanks so much for having us. We want to thank you guys for watching theCUBE, Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DuckerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest.