 I want to say welcome and thank you for joining us for the nonprofit show. We are talking with Brittany and Nia today. I'm super excited to have both of you to talk about funder power dynamics. Before we do that, we definitely want to say thanks to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit academy. She sadly is not with us today for this conversation, but she'll be back tomorrow. She's left the reins in good hands, I hope. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group. We also start every episode by saying thank you and extending our deepest, sincerest gratitude to each and every one of our presenting sponsors. You can see their logos on the screen, and I really challenge you to reach out and find them online because they exist to help you do more good. They are here to help and support you in your mission driven goals, just like the two of these amazing rock stars. I always say that with like so much credibility and so much just awe, if you will, rock stars is one of my favorite terms. So Brittany and Nia, I want to say welcome, thank you. And I am looking forward to learning more from each of you as well as your nonprofit reframe podcast. So welcome, ladies. Thank you. Yeah. Brittany, tell me more about the two of you, how did you get started? Who are you to each other? And then like what are you doing to save the world? Great questions. So Nia and I are both colleagues in the nonprofit sector and we are happen to be best friends as well. It started as colleagues. We met through our work in the nonprofit sector and quickly became best friends when we realized we both had partners that did not like to attend fundraisers. And so we became each other's dates to each other's plus one. I love that. Oh my gosh. And I think that was at least four or five years ago. We both have spent our entire careers in the sector and so have a lot of experience with it and as we started being each other's plus ones, we also started to be each other's sounding boards when we had various problems at work or encountered frustrations and that's really how our podcast, the nonprofit reframe was born. Now, yeah, Nia, tell me when like when did this start? I forget how I stumbled upon the two of you and this amazing podcast, but I'm glad we did. And yeah, tell me tell me more about that podcast. Yeah, so as Brittany was saying, we just we started having these conversations and it almost became like a mantra or just a that's a podcast episode when we would talk about these ridiculous things happening in our nonprofits. And then it was happening more and more frequently and we're like, maybe we should write some of these down when we hit 54 episode ideas, we were like, this might actually be a podcast. We started, you know, all the research, how do you make a podcast? What is it like? What else is out there? And what we realized was there were a lot of really amazing podcasts that would give you in depth content and, you know, you could listen to on the way to work and immediately implement. But what was lacking was more of that, that bigger picture, what's actually happening, what systems are in place that are impacting nonprofits and their staff, how are these systems actually maybe even holding us back. And that's how the nonprofit reframe came to be so it wasn't just us talking about how frustrating our boards were but really like the systemic issues with nonprofit boards and fundraising and so on and so forth. Wow. And I can only imagine those 54 just grew and grew and grew. I feel like we've been long lost kindred spirits because I could sit around that table and be like, Listen to this nonsense or like can you believe so and so happened. You're probably also very involved in quite a few forums and groups on social media. Every single day I am like picking up my jaw of a comment or a question. So I can only imagine the, the amazingness that comes out of these podcast conversations. Well, you two, you're a little more than podcasters like again go back to those rock stars that you are. And one of the things we wanted to talk to you about you to with you rather today is about the funder power dynamics and what does that look like. Is this one of those, you know, system changes that you really wanted to get your teeth into. Talk to us about this. Absolutely. You know, I think when we started, we didn't, we hadn't even pinpointed it down that specifically. It really was, as Nia was talking about these different topics that we had. At this point, it usually would make the list if we were saying, you just can't make this up. Right. So, if, if the story happened and we said, you just can't make this up then it made it on the list. But once we started the weekly podcast and bringing these different subjects to light. We realized that there was a central theme that was pulling through all of them. You know, whether you're talking about your board and your staff or your management and your staff or funders and donors and staff. It really became quite obvious that this is what was at the root of a lot of these stories that we had of you can't make this up, and funders obviously being one of the biggest culprits. You know, we so often talk about all the ways in which those power dynamics are used to hold back nonprofits. You know, we're always in this position of deference we have ridiculous requirements. But then we started to analyze, you know, where are those dynamics being used to actually do good where where our funders using their power and their privilege to hold certain organizations accountable you know one place we saw this is with diversity. So you now have funders saying if your board is not representative of the community if your staff is not representative of your community. You're not getting funding from us anymore. And so it's starting to find these shifts. And that's where so much change happens where funders are saying, if you're not doing these things, we are not going to fund you anymore. And so there's that like direct interaction with the organizations they fund but then there's also funders who are being held up as examples to other funders. And so they're utilizing their positions of privilege to say, here's what nonprofit funder relationships can look like here's how we can share power. And how we can actually shift this back to the, the communities we're serving and empower them to find the solutions. And they're, they're holding that mirror up to their peers, and saying as a funder community we need to make these shifts. You know, I'm so glad that you said this because when I think of funder power and I'm going to be honest I always think of those burning hula hoops that they're always asking us to jump through right. And it seems like it is so impossible. One of the things that I've noticed trending before COVID and I'm curious if it still is, in particular with submitting grant applications or sponsorship applications they're now asking for a video submission and it's like, we don't do videos we're not who we are we feed individuals experiencing hunger, our homelessness right and now you're asking us to become a videographer and an editor, and like all these things. Those were some frustrations that I remember hearing and dealing with, but the flip side as you just so eloquently shared me is really about how they can use their thunder power and privilege for good for to carry on the alliteration for positive right and to really have that to say hey, we value, I like to say Jedi right justice equity diversity and inclusion. We value this and we will also help to support and invest in those organizations that equally value this so I am so grateful that you shared that because it's not always burning hula hoops that were asked to jump through. Well it's both right. Yes, and we're trying to be better by starting with the positive. That is also something that came up with our podcast of okay we can't just be complaining all the time right so let's look at the positives let's lift up when we see funders that are actually to as you know point and talking about using their privilege for good and impacting positive change in the sector. And also, I think you're right, I think that it's so funny you bring up the video example because we've talked about the podcast before. I think that that's such a prime example of a funder attempting to make it easier for applicants and not recognizing the real dynamics that are happening right so we talked so much to about what is our role as organizations what are we how are we enabling it again not to try to you know blame the organization but be honest about okay well what are we doing internally that's enabling this and part of it is the scarcity mindset that we all hold so near and dear to our hearts and and having never enough never enough always needing that next grant that next donation, and that plays into to quote, one of our favorites Voolay when he talks about the nonprofit hunger games, and that we're all so used to fighting for the same piece of the pie that when a funder says hey don't even worry about writing this long application, just submit a two minute video will we're immediately thinking who do we know in Hollywood that can help us put together a two minute video. In the next in the next 48 hours right it's always like such a small time I know because I'm thinking two minute video really what we hear is like this is a two month process it's $2 million we need to have that Sarah McLaughlin you know exactly what volunteer do we know that has you know video production skills, and the funder is thinking no just take your iPhone and do a video for two minutes and we're thinking there's no way we can do that because how are we going to measure up to. You know the hundreds of other submissions, because we all want the same piece of the pie. Yeah, you are the second person this week to mention Voolay in regards to and so it's just so much amazing concepts, you know, really, really to consider there. One of the other concepts that I hope that you can share with us is the impacts of ridiculous reporting. Some might say ridiculous reporting but really, you know the impact of this what does that look like, does it go back to that funder power. Yes, yes, yes. Now if I just want to like define what ridiculous reporting is. Yes, reporting is excessive data, it's frequency of data, it's data that the funder actually never uses or analyzes. You know, when we're having to collect very specific outcomes and impacts because that's what that funder is willing to fund even though that's not part of our programmatic logic model. Those are all ridiculous. Ideally, we would say we know how to run our programs, we know what makes sense and here's the info we're going to collect, and we will share that with all of our funders well that's that's part of the transparency of nonprofits which is amazing. But instead we have all these bespoke reporting requirements for every funder that's a little bit different that takes all this time. So first off, you've got just the time piece. Second, nonprofits are bogged down reporting for all of their grants all their funding and all these different ways. Secondly, it can actually shift how programs operate. You know, when funders say, well, we want to do funding for homelessness services but here the in the outcomes that we need to see and you're like well we don't. We have a programmatic model. Now we're shifting our programming to collect that data to ensure that we're actually impacting those things. And so funders are shifting services in our community when, quite frankly, they are an experts. They don't know that stuff that they are philanthropic experts potentially. I'm not even going to say all the time. So those reporting requirements come back to the organizations, it can absolutely up and service delivery and really really significant ways. And this is the point that I really wish funders would realize is that they truly believe in their nonprofit community and the folks that they're funding in the work that they're doing, they have to get rid of these, because otherwise they will actually negatively impact the services being delivered. So Nia, I wholeheartedly agree, right, and, and what I hear too often is so many nonprofit leaders are terrified of funders right like they are intimidated they're scared to have these conversations. Even more so scared to say, we can't collect that data that is not who we are that's not what we do. Therefore, they maybe don't pursue that funding opportunity, right. And so I know that that exists, which is in fact why we have a power week coming up with Rita sordin for the Dave Thomas found, you know, foundation is about how do you talk to funders, you know, like, literally this whole thing of they wake up every morning and put their pants on one leg at a time too. What do you say to, you know, the nonprofit that's a little intimidated to have these vulnerable transparent conversations with the funder to say, look, yes, we need your money and no we cannot collect that data because it would actually negatively impact the program. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, again, it goes back to that imbalance of power and, as you said intimidation, and what what is the role that we're playing in it so as an organization by not speaking up, and not saying these things to funders sometimes even when they ask, I mean, I've started to see more applications ask the question, how could we make this process easier for you. And yet organizations are still so stuck in that fear and that scarcity mindset of what if I say something wrong and all of a sudden, we don't get the money. That's right. And we need the money. And so I don't know exactly what the answer is I mean I want to empower organizations to use their platform to help train and inform funders about what is helpful for them. And to Nia's point when it's actually changing your service delivery or your service philosophy. That's going against the values of your organization and we talk a lot about this in the podcast about, you know, whether it's your next fundraiser, or whether it's grant application. You really need to be fundraising in line with the values of your organization and when you're not, you're doing a disservice to your staff, who's having to deal with all these fundraising and reporting requirements, and ultimately to your clients and those that you're serving. So, yeah, Nia, but it makes me think really about this funder gain versus the societal good. Is that perhaps where you're going Nia in your conversation. Well, I just had an example of how somebody did address it one of my great recently, they went to a funder who is doing it right. Who they have a good relationship with where they're able to be really open and transparent with one another. And this client went to them and said hey I know you know this other funder, and they're not doing it right. Would you be open to starting that conversation as peers. Because it was such an amazing thing to see this funder say yes I'm going to use my, my power, my privilege here, you nonprofit you don't have to worry about this let me have this conversation. And they started the dialogue and now, six months later that that second funder is investing in an entire overhaul of their funding practices, all because the organization push that forward so you know I think there are also ways where you can, you can be the catalyst for without having to worry about some of these conversations which could be damaging to you or your organization. I think that is such a positive light right and and to consider the opportunity and the possibility that this is a pure example that it has happened, which means it can repeat it is a repetitive behavior that can continue. And I really think you know it's the whole saying of, you do what you know and when you know better you do better. You know, and so, so talk to me then about that funder gain versus the societal good. What does that mean. In the eyes of me and Brittany and you know how do we really address this in our community. Brittany you ready to bring up our favorite funder to hate on. I'm ready. This is such a good one because they're so huge and everybody knows. So the classic example it's Amazon and Amazon smile. Amazon smile is all about funder gain. They want you nonprofits out there saying, hey buy through Amazon use this link because then we get a portion. When the reality is the societal good that they do through those funds are miniscule. It's like 0.00001% right. So they're getting all this like free publicity and really marketing. Yeah. I mean, now they, your brand as a nonprofit is associated with their brand as Amazon and so you're, you're able to say hey look at this company doing all these great things, when in reality we know that they're actually doing a ton of harm and all these companies, even basic ones like they're not paying taxes, which would amount to way more than any other philanthropic giving. So we know that there are plenty of funders out there that are continuing to utilize these power dynamics that shift, so that they are getting way more gain than any community would. You know that is fascinating and I always love, I always love a good disruptor so thank you for throwing that out there. What about and I again come from the frustration of so many leaders in my community, you know whether it's a sporting event, and they are asking the nonprofits to sell the tickets to attend the sporting event and it's like that's not what we don't sell, you know, professional sports tickets, let alone get someone to a restaurant to take home 5% of a burrito. You know, so I do think that that kind of does wash, rinse and repeat the Amazon smile opportunity of look at all this, you know, funder gain that we can do by making you our sales team our marketing team our social team on top of, you know, the service that you're providing in our community so what do you say to these things that come across our desk, especially for like the, I don't want to say younger nonprofit but the very eager nonprofit that they have to say yes to everything and not willing or not able are knowledgeable perhaps to have those conversations with the funder to say hey, thanks for this opportunity but that doesn't serve us. Here's what would serve us better. What do you say to that. I would say that nonprofits, their biggest asset is their reputation and their mission. And we're so quick to give it away. Oh, that was powerful. I feel like everyone needs to hear that again. As a nonprofit, our biggest asset is our reputation and our mission and the work that you're doing and we're so quick to give it away. And we think that it's going to yield some sort of return with a new donor or a new corporate sponsorship or a new whatever. Or a new board member or a new board member and the odds are, it doesn't normally work out like that and ultimately what it ends up doing. We only have so much bandwidth with our supporters right and we're trying to put, we're trying to educate people about the work that we're doing we want them to know about the upcoming fundraiser that we have. We need them to know that giving Tuesday or Colorado gives days around the corner and there's all these things that we're trying to communicate. When we start communicating somebody else's message. So that restaurant, that sports team, we are taking away that supporter bandwidth from our news and our mission and we're giving it to somebody else, and that's extremely valuable. And I think that we need to do a better job of really trying to judge the cost benefit ratio before we just say yes to everything, not to mention it leads to staff burnout it leads to turn over I mean all of us. I'm sure all of us can attest to sitting at some table or booth at a restaurant or at a sporting event, or for hours and hours, usually on a weeknight or on a weekend, right for and not not receiving anything in return for that time. Well I also think to it's an interesting thing because there's that like individual bandwidth that donors volunteers etc have with our organization but also as a society. Like when you think about fundraising that happens and that lay people would know about it's like galas, you know big events that maybe they've seen in movies or TV shows. Or these kind of dinouts and and things because they're they're plastered everywhere. When was the last time you heard somebody say I got this great appeal letter in the mail right like. And so we've distilled fundraising and nonprofit engagement down to these two things which really don't have a huge return for most organizations. And so we need to shift that narrative, we need our communities to know that there are ways that they can really significantly engage with organizations and be part of that real change that they're making. So, I am one of those that does have a swipe file of all the amazing appeals I receive but I'm sure I'm a little unique in that fact. I know. I'm sure most of us that are nerds right we're like yeah heck yeah that was a darn good appeal I'm going to keep that one because I love how they, I love their ask string. That's totally talking nerdy right but it's like, well they really implemented this ask string in a way that is going to see a super high return on investment. Anyway, yes we can totally you know talk that way for for hours I'm sure but to do that and yeah I would love to be in your backyard with those beautiful aspects. Always welcome. I think that would be important. So really talking about this funder gain societal good and we're wrapping up you know the time on the show here, but really talking about the funder power dynamics with both Brittany and yeah, talk to us a little bit more with the time that we have left about the podcast so we are not a podcast we're so grateful that the two of you are and I know that we've had some other amazing podcasters if that's the word on the nonprofit show we are so grateful to have your collaboration in conversation for the space. Would you mind telling us a little bit more about the your podcast and kind of what to expect and maybe you know if there's certain topics in in regards to this funder power dynamic I heard you say that the video is is one of the episodes but just you know close us out here with some more information. Absolutely so we are the nonprofit reframe you can subscribe and follow our podcast anywhere that you get podcasts so we're available anywhere. And we are weekly podcast so we come out every Monday morning we've been able to keep that throughout the pandemic. And we went from being you know we probably started four months before the panda pandemic started we're going on two years now what 86 episodes near. 86 episodes and we try to be the pandemic really shifted it so that we had to be timely everything was changing so fast. So it's really fun to tune in and find out kind of what's going on currently but we also do some longer segments we just did one on boards so board recruitment retention. And yeah anything else you want to add Nia. I always have to give this warning. The podcast is meant to be like you're sitting at the table with me and Brittany so we swear. We tell ridiculous stories. Yeah, if you want a little levity maybe in your morning commute this might be the podcast for you. I do believe we're the only nonprofit podcast with an explicit rating. I love that and if you're ever looking for a guest I would love to be explicit explicit. I would love to do that with you. Yes apparently I'm not supposed to even say the word will great job ladies on keeping your composure and your filter because for a national broadcast right. I would love to have someone like radio to be something out but anyway we're so grateful to have your time at your expertise. I am a podcaster listener I always love to, you know when I'm out walking and trying to balance my work life chaos. I always like to find a podcast in regards to the nonprofit sector so I'm so great to know the two of you are out sitting around your coffee table or your, you know kitchen table and having these really in depth conversation, because I'm with you with the two of you I really think we can see our sector it's been shaken right shaken and stirred, and I think it's time for us to really see where this can take us for for positive so. Thank you to Brittany me and Mia please do check them out. Phenomenal women doing phenomenal things for our sector. Julia Patrick and myself to ransom. We are here doing this thing called you know a broadcast. And we're just so grateful to continue the conversations with other amazing leaders across our nation. And we of course could not do this without the help investment and continued support from our presenting sponsors. So please join me in saying thank you to these amazing sponsors. Thank you so much for this to help you do more good in your community. So please do reach out to them. Ladies, I really, I know I could sit around that table and just, you know, shoot the beep with you for a long time so maybe we can make that happen one day. Alright, well thanks to the two of you for joining me. Thanks to all of you for joining us for another episode of the nonprofit show. Join us back here tomorrow and until then, we ask you to stay well, so you can do well. Thanks everyone.