 What's up? What's up? What's up? It's Brian man. Sean and I'm Cory and we are back with episode number 42 of no labels necessary Podcasts you can catch us every Tuesday every Thursday Streaming on YouTube Spotify Apple music wherever you listen to your podcast breaking it down on music marketing What money culture culture all that good some content just having a good time man And today we had to talk about these Spotify features We can go a super deep dive a full episode one day just talk about these Spotify features So but we want to talk about some key features that got everybody talking. Yep, because the platform is changing and If we want to get straight to the point, we can just start with jacquory saying I told you so you won't go there I love a good. I told you so let's get ready to live for I told you all right So one of the biggest I don't say the biggest but one of the more prolific feature updates is the announcement of Spotify's Clips feature as that is what they're calling it right. So yep, essentially what they're gonna allow artists to do is to upload Short-form videos 30 second videos to their profile to like add more context to a song or an Album or you know just to kind of show your personality a little bit now. No, you might be thinking oh, that's cool But whereas I told you so come in you know and we've been telling you guys some months that short-form content is the new language and You know like most good languages that starts to spread and you realize you travel to places And you still got to speak the same language. You know saying once you hit these foreign soil You know saying and so now Spotify has adopted the language of short-form content Which to me says that more likely at some point the others are gonna do it too. You know, maybe their own birds, but the very least One of the biggest ones is doing it, which is enough. You know saying so now your short-form content skills Doesn't just apply to tiktok. It doesn't just apply to YouTube doesn't just apply to social media Where's ours like that? I'm not a social media guy. Well, I gotta do these social media things Sorry, what now you see why because the streaming platforms are adopting social media platform methods And it's probably gonna work the same way preach path. Hmm. So yeah, we told y'all man, you know So what you're saying is Tiktok is Great Britain Okay, and and there's some a period list. Okay, just invaded the rest of the world and now everybody speak in English That's that's what it is. We all even know beans and toast The drinking great to you brother, you know Yeah, I want to go through for that direction, but everybody is speaking tiktok now. Yeah, everybody's speaking tiktok They've invaded they've imperialized if that's a word it is a word because I said it You know, I got to think about like what's a word and what's not a word It's like a bra used to my mom if this Shakespeare guy can create words that we now talk about how come I can't create a word You're welcome to just throw some shit out there. You're a man. I believe you know Hey, well Webster was a basically like a Content creator, you know, I'm sorry. He just oh, let me organize these thoughts and give you the thoughts So you got to kind of give Western some credit, but with that feature like I think people are Artists are underestimating why it's gonna be so valuable, but also I think people are either estimating How this is gonna affect tiktok in a long not Spotify in a long term. Yeah. Yeah, so Number one the value is okay. I'm showing my personality on the platform where the music is We think oh the friction is low to go over from tiktok to Spotify in comparison to what we've seen before Well, you're already on Spotify now All right, so the same way you can be popping on tiktok and then your sound will get traction Well, your song will get traction on Spotify at some point So you have that to with that being said To want to say that I'm gonna say that one third to Now it's going to be up to you to be able to be creative to still have high-quality content. Yeah, all right That doesn't feel like it's messing up Spotify's platform because Spotify is they're a little different. I don't think they're going to Be as tolerant about the experimentation that took place on tiktok to start to allow things to bubble to the top of what's good It was there that's gonna be interesting So you're probably gonna have to make sure to your Contents on us of a certain quality without the leeway that you had on tiktok Because that otherwise will just take over and make it way too social. Yeah, right But third, I think at some point If this is successful We might find Spotify ads become a real thing again Like the regular audio ads not the audio ad it's gonna be a new type of ad I got the same way that we can Advertise in the Instagram feed the tiktok feed the stories That's going to become a thing on Your Spotify. Oh, yeah, cuz this is set in the stage This is successful that will allow them to actually compete with ads in a way. They haven't been able to compete. Yeah Yeah, that's true. And All right, the the thing about it that was the most well What I like the most about it is that this is the first time that Spotify is giving artists a feature that allows them to communicate with their Audience on Spotify. Yep. Right. And so that's been a huge It's been a huge factor for a lot of people just not fucking with Spotify I was like, man, I got a million monthly listeners can't say nothing to none of them I don't have the data to retarget and but now you can I Guess just like you said almost use Spotify as like any other platform Hey, let me use Spotify to push my million monthly listeners over to Instagram tiktok Whatever or just just to say hey in platform and let them know, you know, I'm kind of here because I'm curious to see To your point about the quality control what the parameter is gonna look like because I remember When they did the Spotify rap right and they let artists upload the 32nd video to go into that route, which is them testing it out Yep I remember they had like certain things you couldn't talk about or say and so like you couldn't be trying to push people off platform You couldn't put like logos and links, you know saying like icon of your video So had to be like very like clean almost a man Like, you know, this is the box of what you can talk about in this video, right? So I'm assuming they're gonna implement like those same types of guidelines on here at least for this early stage, right? Cuz like I don't think anyone to be as like Loose of a cannon is tiktok is I don't think I don't think Spotify is ready for that You know saying yep, and then most artists wouldn't even put the output out to do it I said it would get dominated very quickly by the artists that I like they know like the Nick D's and the ISO Kenny's of the world You know what I'm saying with more and really quickly and to take this shit over so Yeah, because in the late wills are your plan because their artists aren't doing it. Yeah, I see what you're saying Yeah, so yeah, so I think they're gonna my guess is they're gonna work to find that balance But I mean, I personally like it man I said, but ours you can finally talk to your audience. You can show your personality on it I was reading on the features early and just seeing some of the plans that have for it in terms of it Like, you know popping up at the top of people's like search bars and being fed into the algorithm like the music is So it's just gonna know be a I'm assuming like a good discovery tool Probably secondary and then be a good like fan engagement tool like primary I'm saying like here's a way for you to just kind of like talk to people It's like the more advanced version of that that note that you can put on your song Oh, yeah, it's like a more advanced version of that. You know, I don't know I don't know man. I would love to know those knows actually work I have feel like I haven't seen artists using them in a while. You know, I'm saying well to me It's just a bit a better version of that. Well, I think this will actually Help things like that become more impactful. Yeah, because the thing is You had this note Which by itself it seems cool because like even the artist pick it seems cool But if my fan experience on this platform is truly never to receive any communication from the artist I don't ever register. Yeah, I'm not thinking about I'm just not looking for it because I don't expect to hear from them So I'm not even looking even if it says artist pick I'm not even thinking truly if they pick that Oh, this person I really like this song Right versus if you posted that and said this is my song for you on Instagram or TikTok Then I would feel like oh this artist really Believes that this is a song that I should be listening to right where they want me to so creating other forms of engagement where on the platform people feel like the artist is is Communicating this to me It's going to help them pay more attention to other features that probably didn't really make the impact that she would have thought Yeah, that's true. There's like now you could build like a true phone around it Like you could have a little text pushing people to the artist pick pushing them to a playlist to that has your Clip in it like you could build a real like You're like Fanny has been falling on there and now you know that there was a no not get ahead but like there was One of the new updates that kind of emphasized like Spotify has like the whole like merch thing On on in there, right? Like I've been seeing like merch become a lot more like prominent artist profiles over the last like couple of months So I mean now they announced it. I get why but I see that they're making the steps to make Spotify more of a fan engagement platform, which is like I said being one of the biggest complaints of it for Since this as long as it's been around, you know, it's crazy People I've seen all these apps people reach out to me for my pay-in to build or Or one in my me to be like a marketer for these apps where they have a platform And people can stream your music on the platform People can buy your merch on the platform The fee where people can comment on a platform People have been pushing these ideas for years now And it's the easiest for Spotify to just become this platform Like Spotify could and should be Everything that an artist needs you have everybody here All right if you made it easier and better for merch to be purchased and tickets to be purchased where it was a true viable option and people could truly Like communicate with their fans do that and Process like you might be taking shoulder processing or whatever in some form of fashion like that's great for you revenue-wise You literally can become my house Right where everything lives out of there in the best position to do that now There might be implications on other sides of the business why they don't want to do that or I don't know Maybe the labels have been pushing them away from it, but they have been best positioned to be This the place where people go and have a 360 You know, hey, no pun intended with artists and be a part of every part of this is yeah in the way Yeah, that's what I like about this this feature Rollout or the future roll-offs is that it feels like Spotify is finally embracing its position as a marketing tool I'm saying hopefully um because I mean we talked about a lot right where you know artists have their their their complaints, you know Um What about it about the platform in terms of like payoffs and things like that? I've always kind of just looked at Spotify was just another marketing tool, right? We can use this to build an audience up and no Hardest part like I was there I was always like figure out a way to push them off spot about other stuff because we couldn't you can't talk to them directly So now they face a lot of that right like now they have things like the clips they even have another feature It's called something called like fan first So and they try like identify like your biggest fans and then make sure they get like email updates and things around you Pretty consistently right and I've been seeing it a little bit with some artists like I follow Yeah, so it's like they're finally embracing it as like a fool at marketing side. Hey, we have Organic for you, which is the algorithmic playlist. We have pay for you, which is marquee and discovery ass We have I guess organic too could be like content And we have something for you to form that too because you can sell tickets and merch on your platform Yeah, it's gonna take time for that all that to develop in a way that are really significant, but Them not having these things Pretty much continues to clarify that they have never been in a business selling the artist. All right If anything, they've been selling fans and Consumers because they were looking at themselves more as a radio Mm-hmm, all right and the radio value it comes from the people who are listening to it The amount of people who are listening to it and then it becomes a kind of way for other people to market themselves on Which it makes sense to start out that way. I came and fall some on that but Now to me in terms of revenue and possibilities They have the position to be a platform for artists, right? You're at the threshold where everybody goes to y'all are already number one So if you can be a place where I ain't and will rightfully so then get cuts Well of other parts of the business because you're allowing me to sell more merch directly It's to better Understand where my fans are coming from and somehow optimize which of those fancy tickets for these shows and things like that Then like why would I go to another platform? It's it was hard for anybody to even build anything comparable to that because it's really difficult to get to that point Yeah, so Yeah, hopefully this is a right another step in the right direction, but switching to another feature is the DJ AI alright, so How do how would you explain the DJ AI? like in short To me it sounds like AI shuffle, you know saying like I still don't completely Understand it yet because my Spotify hasn't updated to what I haven't my hasn't either Yeah, but so EJ shot EJ the editor We y'all want to know who oh, yeah, who kills y'all with the with the headline. Yeah, that's headline shawty out there the headline go but Personalization at the heart of what we do as Spotify. This is their quote on the new AI DJ Just think of fan favorite Playlist like discover weekly or our annual rap campaign The beauty of these experiences is our ability to deliver the right piece of music for the exact moment in time And maybe even connect you with the next your next favorite artist in the process We're building on the innovation by harnessing the power of AI in an entirely new way and today We're excited to share that we're taking our Personation to the whole new level with DJ. So what's this all saying? All right? We're gonna to me. It's a glorified radio station I mentioned EJ because he says his girlfriend uses it a lot So I think it's to me That's a proving case a real-world case where we might often say alright, that sounds cool but our people aren't really use it well there's already some people who are using it seriously and allowing it to select the music and and Control their discovery process. All right. Yeah, so and I think Gary Vee alluded to this Years ago when he was like He was a little bullish on voice It really hasn't taken over to the extent he thought yet But he was saying when people are no longer searching the search engine and I'm going to Google to search it and I see like 10 options on the page you think that's a little bit Well, what do you think it's gonna happen where people just say hey Siri do XYZ or hey Alexa do XYZ and Then they just give him an option All right, it's like oh up when I when we're in that other office the other week and I was like hey Alexa play Some little baby. I didn't control whether he went to Amazon or Spotify. All right He could have just played enough. I forgot when I said the other week I think I said play like jazz or something and it didn't tell I didn't decide which jazz artist it played Yeah, right. So it's like how do you create visibility in a world where? You're not even competing with eyeballs anymore You just I don't know. We just say you're competing with ears And but like people can't see you unless they happen to hear you because the Platform is choosing for you. So I think that's something that sounds cool for consumers. I don't quite see Like if it seems like it's a little troubling for artists Like it makes things even more competitive to be at the top I mean, I think if it works the way that Marketing it because they're a big thing for like this is almost like discover weekly But a little bit more personalized to him based on your old music taste Which now as I said out loud is like but isn't that the appeal of discover weekly is that we're learning your music taste and recommending you new things, right? So I'm not my only thinking behind this is pretty much what you said, man I think Spotify seeing that users don't want to have as much control over the discovery processes They did one spotify because that was spotify big thing in the game You have complete control of your discovery process, you know, um, and they failed at it. They did They weren't great discovery engine. Yeah better play listers like tick tock killed the discovery game. Yeah. Yeah Well, I will give a spot on that there. They're better than the other DSPs at discovery Like Apple's discovery engine is basic. Yeah more titles. I only Pandora might be the closest like Pandora's by was the best to me Honest work pandera is the best at like staying in one by and some thoughts on top by the SoundCloud, I guess even consider that a DSP. Yeah, that Discovery they probably at their height did discovery better. Yeah, right. It was just more of a cultural thing I don't even think it was all technological. It was just a setup of it. Yeah, but And then I don't even look at Pandora as a DSP to be honest I think of it just differently as like radio and they do that the best. Yeah, so and and I just seen a DSP game I just don't think Amazon and Apple count. We all both life They don't care to count. All right. They don't care to count now It's not that they aren't viable sources to get like plenty of strings audience, of course all that But yeah discovering. Yeah, like you're they're not in that same game that Spotify has done So that's why I say our tick tock Killed them in that they're trying to get back to it and I think what they realized also is The listenership is such a passive experience with the app. All right, you go in you play your music You're not you can be using spotify for three hours and never look at this shit. Yeah, you know I'm saying yeah Whereas and that's tough for advertising Yeah, which probably is part of another reason that they would like to have more advertising dollars Let's get people looking at the app. Let's do these clips so people can actually look at the app Because they nobody really looking at Spotify like that. Yeah, you know what I mean? So when you can capture more eyeballs in that way I think it's probably gonna be a benefit to them as a company, but then it'll be a benefit to the artist in this own way I'm that figure it out because Now I can engage with you in more ways and because you know consume you as a visual and audio experience, but still The DJ aspect of it again, I just don't think I Don't trust I don't trust them to be great at it from a Artist music and give that kid a standpoint when I trust him to be great at it for a happy consumer standpoint Right, but like for me to be a new artist and trying to get myself seen Outside of using this other feature, which we'll get to yeah, all right. Yeah You know, I You this only a limited amount of shell space. I know although we so and that's that's the weird thing about this So we acknowledge the advent of the internet created this Unlimited shell space right before you go to the store is only enough space like a certain amount of space You put your CDs on there's only enough space for if you could put your coca-cola and Pepsi And it's hard to bring a new product in there because literally physically. There's only another certain amount of space I get that the internet makes things better and Spotify To that credit has more space for more artists but then realistically Shell space is limited by time And people's attention in a given amount of time. Yeah, all right so Yes, I can have unlimited amount of artists on this platform, but can I truly? Equally distribute this music through this AI DJ in a way that's even What's even a set of to be even in fair to quote quote quote fair to everybody. You know, this doesn't even make sense Right, so you're still gonna have some level of prioritization towards people that it makes the most sense You know what I mean, you know those are the labels and distributors and the indies but not so indies and you get down to the pure indies So that's one like I don't really Trust it to be a huge benefit for artists unless they happen to get in then the other side Maybe one incentive would be this feature the Spotify discovery Feature well good, but even just really quick on the DJ thing. I just kind of thought about it. I Think that DJ features may be meant to control the vibe around the discovery because like I said I what I was thinking was like, okay It doesn't make sense that they feel like they would need the DJ tools to introduce artists to people because they have They have discovered weekly rise discover weekly is essentially the album optimized way of doing it Yeah, that's what's that because yeah exactly like discover weekly is kind of like hey We're looking at like your broader music taste I guess and recommending you so versus the DJ feature sounds like hey We're recommending you songs based on like the mood you're seeing to be in right now You know I'm saying so like we can't versus like discover weekly doesn't necessarily have like There's not like a theme like Bob to you discover just like a bunch of new music Thank you like versus like this is gonna be like hey You are listening to you know little baby and little dirt right now clearly you and the move was some lit music So I'm gonna start recommending you other artists that make this type of music, right? So it's a little bit more I guess cohesive in Your musical mood for the moment. That's I just thought about there Like that's the only thing I could think of like why or how that could maybe be beneficial to ours It's like it's gonna make the experience in which they get discovered in a little bit more positive, you know But then yeah less random. Yeah, so but it's like I don't know how impactful That's gonna be maybe it might take away at some of those skips Yeah It's like when you finish your playlist and go to some other random thing and you skip it because like that's not your vibe You know, you would have liked it a better experience. Yeah, exactly to that I say well, this is some Apple shit, you know, whenever at least a feature like five years later It's an Android been had that shit like this is well Pandora's been doing radio the right way It's not that much to this but Again, you equate that and relate that to the discovery engine. Mm-hmm. What is it? What is this every mode? Yeah, discovery mode. That's what I meant to say. Yeah, that's the real kicker. That's the real kicker. So Breaking down the discovery mode. What's the percentage again? I think it's 30% they take 20 or 30. They take 20 or 30 30 percent cut from your track and Then you get incentivized placement on the platform through the algorithm through the algorithm How powerful with that have been without having this radio this DJ I think that's part of why them being there being launched at the same time Oh, they can they can disguise it through that shit. I think about it. That's a good point. Yeah, I think about it Yeah, so and that's only the that's the better way to probably even introduce it Otherwise, would you just hop on some playlist? Yeah, that basically just keep throwing me like this cover in the radio We're in the regular radio. So yeah, I wonder if the DJ thing is going to replace the regular radio Then we'd have to do radio radio as I like to repeat its tracks I Have to be a better way of doing it like they they themselves they call the combination of the scumper weekly and And wrapped that's that's I don't quite get the wrapped analogy personally yet I guess it's maybe the personalized aspect of it, but that's how Spotify describes it All right, so yeah, that was for another episode We're gonna do a full deep dive and let you guys know the implications of how you can use these Spotify features on top of touching on a couple of hot debates, but transitioning to Let me take a quick second to say if you're an artist trying to blow your music up Or if you're a manager music professional in general trying to help an artist blow their music up I have something that's a game changer for you and it's completely Free as you may know, we've helped multiple artists go from zero to hundreds of thousands of streams We've helped multiple artists go from hundreds of thousands to millions of streams chart on billboard go viral all of that stuff And we've now made the way we've branded multiple artists and help them go viral Completely free step-by-step in Brand man network. All you have to do is check out brand man network.com you apply It's completely free, but the thing is we're not gonna let everybody in forever So the faster you apply the better your chance of getting accepted brand man network.com check it out Back to the video one of the lesser DSPs title just made a change and It's pretty disappointing. Mm-hmm. All right And it's why is getting even harder to make money from music streams alone So what title just did was they dropped direct artist payouts After they paid new artists even less sounds like two wrongs. Yeah. All right two wrongs too many two wrongs too many I think it's very clear too long don't make a right right here because just feels more wrong they Paid less money than they were paying before and that was part of the cloud They were trying to build on the beginning. We're paying artists more money and we have higher quality audio We're for the artist in comparison, which was a joke in the beginning to feel like oh, you know You're paying me pennies and I'm paying you two pennies like that was that great of a value proposition But also dropping Direct payout. So let's read this officially title is ending a much watch test design to spread streaming payments more equitably After a resulted in smaller payments to emerging artist It's very interesting. We tried to be more equal and actually pay less to emerging artists in jay where Universal music group partner with title to develop a new economic model for music streaming that might be better You know rewarding the value provided by artists title tells hype bot that the two announcements are separate But it's hard not to see how this week shift will not inform the streamers work with UMG now Let's go a little further into this title's payouts total $500,000 to $70,000 70,000 artist $500,000 to 70,000 artists that was a 714 per artist is titled Yeah, but I was small. I mean, I know but like when you see it like that, it's just like dang That's not that much money, you know, I mean Spotify. Yeah Wow But title says it all right so $70,000 enrolled in the direct artist payment program But title says it only paid out 500,000 or an average of $7 of 14 cents for artists far as short of its goal One of what his goal was the DAP program focused on and only a listener number one artists What the DAP program focused only on a listener's number one artist which left much much less room for a murdered artist to get paid I see what was going on here. Our high five plus tier still pay out pays artists more than others. So it sounds like If I'm only they probably pay a higher Amount for the more equal. I meant for your number one artist, but if your number one artist is Already paid artists a major artist. What does that really change? And most people's most people's number one artist is going to be a pretty major artist Yep, all right, even if you think oh, I'm an indie person. I like yeah, but just gonna be like a major indie person Like not somebody was trying to come up so five million dollars for title rising title rising offers direct support to select emerging artists And as a streamer pivots from direct artists payouts that commitment expands to five million dollars Let's get into this tweet because he he seems to be standing for the platform, but I don't really see how this plays out Like you can expect to see more high impact activations like our recent title rising times Atlanta was at the show That was the title. Yeah, so they're doing more shows of yeah They're doing more shows for artists So he's trying to prop things up billboards documentaries TV coverage and opportunities to play for and connect with live Connect live with their biggest fans. So titles investing more in the live fan culture I think I'm in this trailer somewhere. It's pretty funny. I mean, I saw I'm in there somewhere in the crowd footage But yeah, like that was That was my first time saying I'm getting to it was with this event. I'm in there somewhere. I Don't see me. I'm over there. I think I'm like this way somewhere So, you know, I know I'm in there There's a there's a scene where like we're mashing and I think like you can see clearly on there but yeah, like but like that event was pretty cool, you know, like it was They culturally aware in terms like the artist they picked home for the scene had a nice turnout, you know They had they had all the bills and whistles and so you know None of the other DSPs really really do that I know Spotify's been like a couple of times, but they haven't gone like crazy in that direction I don't think Apple's ever done anything like that I don't think Amazon has ever done anything like that. So, you know, the the space is there for Tyler to Be a bit more like culturally impactful, which to me I think they are trying to do to make up for the decrease in payoffs, right or the change in the model I had we want to show you that we ain't completely forgot about you you guys But even to your point, right like all of those artists on that are essentially like rising artists The bigger one that bill was Tom Tom the mailman second biggest was suave The girl 404 soccer or she's a very smart but she got last I'll tell you she got maybe less than a thousand months of listening So I don't know but she did right so they try and show you like how we understand different levels of artists coming out Coming out of the city. So I like I think they're doing the bill to some good will because this was coming out Because that was that happened a while ago in fact, that was a couple months ago I think let's go ahead and get ahead of this before this should come out because You know once they hit it all you guys so you guys aren't for the artist No, of course we got look at this dope event. We just put them in line It was free the alcohol was free. I was giving a merge. I got a beanie for free I'm saying that's pretty cool. It's a nice beanie. Are we going to do we're already doing it Yeah, and just like good advertising. We can show you footage of it being done. It doesn't just look like it's dope Yeah, I can see that and I think it's a part of a platform like title I wouldn't expect them to have major innovations just cuz They're such a small player in comparison to Spotify So they would have to probably have to try to innovate in these other areas in the report Yeah, I don't know what that's going to do for the platform as a whole, you know That's interesting because as much as You invest in fans. I'm an artist as their platform to go to Artists immediate incentive is always going to be to go to the platform that has the most people on it Because I can experience the biggest uptick which speaks to why I said earlier it might have been last episode. I Don't fully fault Spotify for paying attention to fans first the consumer Because once you got a consumer everybody else is gonna come. Yeah, all right. If I just brought the artist That's a whole nother at my game to play and then you got a count on the artists to bring people over and All artists aren't good at marketing and bringing people over onto the platform So it's the right move to have the audience there. So then the artists and the record labels can leverage it and Tidal at this place feels like they're having to go the other way just cuz they know they're not gonna be able to Catch any ground. Yeah, it's like lift. All right second up to Uber Uber They're Uber. All right lift. Oh, yeah, we're friendly. We treat people better We paid up drivers better like they try to come with that language over like We're over there. I know what it is. We're way bigger That simple right you don't really see who we're trying to combat that outside of the stuff like that became like Violating and we have to improve because people are trying to sue us. You know where it becomes a super bad rap So that's kind of where title comes from in me, but impact. I don't quite know That's why I don't I personally don't like champion or speak out on titles not cuz I'm not For some of the stuff they talk about but I just don't see any real impact that is gonna be able to create Yeah, I think I think this is just them digging themselves out Because you know, like you said, they're not a big DSP. So it's not like they're making crazy amounts man. Actually Even they were big DSP. We see what Spotify just been a big big DSP doesn't make you profitable You know saying so imagine what Spotify is going through they're going to imagine what title is going through, right? We pay out more priorities We're you know the only platform or not nothing I think Spotify doesn't now But you know, we're one the only platforms that offers like high-five streaming So imagine the cost of the band within the storage space for the music and shit, right? So I think it's like They created The perfect like dream platform right hey We're gonna be offer you the ability to give high quality listening experiences to your friend your fans for the same price Well, I'm not saying you gotta pay for it. Well, at first it was one price and then it went into the split between the high-five and the regular You know saying But so we're gonna give you the option We're gonna pay you more money right and they've been right that way for the last couple years And I just feel like they walk on there was like, but we're in the real we can't keep doing this shit You know saying like so either we can Remove the high quality thing to save some money But it's like can't do that because that's your that's your whole selling point right there Right is that we are higher quality listening experience. So then what's the next thing we got we got we can do Cut these motherfucking royalty payments Make this shit something that makes a lot more sense. Yeah And then like you said, let's focus on other areas of value that we could bring to the artist community to kind of like make up for it Cuz I mean even like I think somebody said on one of the tweets like yeah, they dropped their royalty pal But I think it's still higher than a lot of other DSP, you know, which is crazy to think about You know, so I said a lot like we lowered it and still a better than some people you know But that's what I think but I think they literally just like Dug them saw it themselves into a very like idealistic hole and it just took them the last like four or five years ago Like oh, no, but like we we shouldn't have did that we shouldn't have came out the gate so hot You know saying with this whole artist friendly narrative We should have maybe built into that narrative, but then you could argue if they didn't do that Would they even be like we still care about their value proposition. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I had to find something Rocking hard plays man. Hey And by the way, I lied we are talking about this episode Spotify Discovery Mode a scam or a blessing Here we are. Let's do it. So Spotify Discovery Role as we said if y'all don't know they're taking 30% of your royalties For that one song for that one song. All right. If you want to use their discovery Mode for a more favorable positioning within the app Some people like this some people don't Some people call this paola That's music. I don't disagree. I'm disagree with I don't think it matters At the same time because it is what it is It's always gonna exist. All right, and it's all form of fashion You can never expect someone to spend money and time building a platform and allow you to get whatever Real estate on that platform that you want well free that doesn't make sense You wouldn't do that either. So anybody on this paola stuff or or why do I have to work so hard? Just get over that like it's always gonna exist. You would not advise yo Yeah, your sister your brother your friend yourself to build a big Instagram page and then allow everybody to post What they want and talk about whatever without them getting paid for it Yeah, you wouldn't tell them to build a big old platform and then allow people to advertise on it without getting paid So it doesn't make sense now with that being said this specific way of doing it Are you forage a Gordon? Yeah, I follow it I'm here. I'm here for I'm a debate against it. All right, but I'm also for I got some other points to make at some point, but let's just speak about the main con All right, royalty's received in discovery mode are 30% less than the standard Spotify royalty split All right, I hear that But why are you for it with that being a con? I'm gonna I want to make it less money, but You're gonna make less money on that one song. Okay, so if If the one song is all you have And all you have to invest in Yeah, you know something I can get that, you know, but I'm assuming that most of these are especially the ones They even qualify to use it probably have a catalog built, right hopefully you're like, okay Yeah, let's say that hopefully hopefully you have a catalog built and what What comes from good marketing and having a catalog is that Ideally everything grows as people discover you through whatever initial thing they like you from right so you might be losing Let's say you you run discovery mode on One song and it makes $10,000 in royalties, but you only make 7,000 you using the 30% right so you're losing 3k But the people who trickle over to the rest of your catalog and offer that you make another 15k the anecdote and To give me the anecdote. Yeah, you mean don't act like we don't know people Oh, yeah, actually, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah, so so what first put me on to it was So a lot of people are just learning about discovery mode now We've known about discovery mode for at least a lot of six or seven months We were trying hard to give this shit before everybody else could get it We went through some roadblocks, you know saying but we learned a lot in the process and What first put me on to it was a good friend of mine hit me one day It was a hey, have you heard this discovery mode thing in the Spotify? I was like, no. He's like, well, I have a manager friend He did it for one of his artists They ran on one song it was like their artists may be made like 40k where he should have made like 78 whatever the math on that 30% comes out to right So he lost the money on the main 40k But my friend was like, but the people streaming over to going up to the rest of the catalog Boosted like his payback. Maybe like an extra like 60k So he lost the 30 40k on that song in particular, but he made an extra 60k overall So my friend is like, no this shit is worth it. He's like this shit It's like crazy, but I'll have to give a 30% of one song to possibly grow the rest of my catalog Easy, you know, I like easy because if you break it down in the grand scheme of what he made it's probably really like 8% of everything or something crazy like like five 8% of everything you know saying if you look at it that way So that's how I look at a man is like to me the song that you choose for discovery mode It's just your sacrificial lamb to a better life. You know saying and if the rest of your catalog is good Then you're gonna you're gonna see that money come back Right, you're gonna see it come back of a couple X's fold if your music isn't good and this one song is just a song Then you probably won't you know saying but then you can also make the argument of like what's the cost of? entry point into the game, right if there's 30% if because if you're an arse that doesn't have a crazy catalog and like I said, you're only looking at Discovery mode to kind of be the way out for you then you got big issues or anyway, you know Like there are other things your career have to kind of be figured out So that's that's why I go for it man It's like what's giving up one song to grow the rest of your cow Not even a whole song because there are people who will go to a label or they should come in sign over a hundred percent of The song royalty to get you know saying to get exposure in certain areas or what's giving up 30% on one song You know saying and it's not like discovery mode is like permanent You can cut it off at some point. So it's only it's only during the time that you have it running So once you're doing you bet the regular royalties, you know, so at least from the least from how I understand it I don't know. That's how I understand to be so it's like what's What is the difference between You paying a marketing agency the 20 to 30 percent of your marketing span to pop this shit off versus spot by taking 30% The only difference is the marketing company one day money or friend spot If I win the way to this shit start generating some income anything they money back. Amen I'm not gonna lie. I really tried it's hard for me to argue against It just does it it I know that people have their arguments. It doesn't make sense to poo poo on on this This feature because not only is it the fact that you get the money from The the catalog not only are is it really just a marketing expense look at it that way Don't you not have to pay for the streams on the other platforms What you mean? if I have this song out on Apple like don't I only pay for the strings specific to Spotify like don't they take it out? Oh, yeah Yeah, like if people were like like if are you saying like If somebody discovered on deputy and went and played on like Tyler or something like what yeah, no Yeah, they're not testing it. They don't know I don't think they know how they know that you know Like so this there's so many benefits to us. I think the the downside if you want to look at it that way is The accessibility to it. We know that it was always it's accessible to a certain group of people at first Always gonna happen right then you start to test some more people. It's more accessible to more people at this moment Are they ever gonna allow every single artist? That doesn't seem like that makes sense too much evil too much. Yeah too much and every song isn't even available all right, so What to say you can't have the song has to have been on the platform for at least 30 days Also, it has to have been in radio for the last 70 that radio feature Oh, so that's already be on algorithm. Well algorithmically well to get further boost it Good way to keep a lot more about this it right. Yeah, right So that's like if we we have to know that the song is liked because they have to a and R it Yeah, am I gonna listen to every single song and say this song is good or not and trust my judgment That's tough. All right, cuz maybe my judgment isn't perfect. So great that I'm not leading on what's happening on the platform To I get to avoid people saying all I'm being selective. Mm-hmm. Hey, man We just kind of we just going off of what's working man. We open and up for amplify people that way. So I think part of What we've seen where you say that we saw some of our clients dashboard They had the button there, but they couldn't use it Yeah, it might be because there's no song specifically eligible because they have to go through those hoops That's been down by exactly why you didn't think about that. Yeah, okay, so It's a feature. It's coming. It's come there. Yeah, I mean And I think it's gonna be beautiful. I think it's gonna have it's gonna be very beneficial for some artists I think the downside is always gonna be from some artists perspective against are they Having access to that or not But in terms of a regular prep value proposition If you're my artist, you tell me that somebody says they're gonna take 30% of the streams only on one platform And we still have a part of the rest of the catalog And they're gonna push it like basically I honestly guarantee but like they basically they aren't is the plug, you know Like usually the plug is the person to the but like that is plugging you into the source. Yeah, but when the source becomes the plug It don't get that much Spotify like I was saying earlier, but they're fighting hard to be looked at as there's a marketing platform I'm here for it. They're like like we I think we've always thought of them like that, but They now have tools to really make that viable was like I think they tried to fight it before to avoid Payola accusations in an era where payola was more important. That's another thing. I don't know if we talk about this on the episode Probably not It's not super out there like that. Hey, everybody hasn't heard every every episode. This might be their first Yeah, man, but um, you know, we we got word from a little birdie not too long ago that Spotify was trying to de-emphasize their tutorial playlist in fact Oh Remember. Yeah. No, we we we we heard the almost That reminds me. Oh, yeah other conversations this category so So sometimes like this is Like they're doing that and I was like because man was like, hey There was a point in time where we had every artist on the planet Fighting to be on the top editorial playlist. It's been shit like this come out That's just gonna switch. Fuck it. Fuck that editorial, but I wanted this discovery mode shit. You know what I'm saying? That's how I feel then with clients though. I mean you can get most necessary Whatever, great. You can talk the other distributor and get you access to this discovery mode shit That would be so much better. You know what I'm saying? So so much better because the The listeners are from what I've seen with the clients who've been able to use it like way more active because we've had We that's another thing. Yeah, let me read this step before you move on and talk about more active they say Users save discovery mode songs 50% more often Add them to playlists 44% more often and follow artists 37% more often Yeah, all right, but we we've seen the first time and we had one the first time we got to see it like internally We had a client we were doing the campaign with um End of last year into the top of this year. So I think we did a december campaign came back into the january campaign They just been like kind of taking the break since doing his thing But I remember right at the end of the december campaign He had told us like hey like my distribution company just green lighted me for Discovery mode. I'm about to try it out And bro, we started his campaign. I think he was maybe like $400,000 monthly listeners Um at the end of that first month, he was at maybe like 610,000 when they activated Bro, I watched him go from 600,000 monthly listeners to like 1.1 million likes next like three three four weeks I'm sorry. I'm just awful because they started a week before the campaign and they saw me We was only contributing to that for like a week You know saying of that and then everything after that point just organic and in discovery mode And so i'm watching his shit going like bro, just like it says save going out like crazy You know saying followers going up all this is like shooting up. I'm like man. That's it really This shit really hit you know saying um, so that's why I go back to is like bro. What's 30%? What's 30% of one song like you said on one platform When you gonna get all of this because in the Right scenario, you would have paid for that. You know somebody told you like if a marketer came to you it was like, hey You know saying for I don't know For three bands. I'll make x1z happen. You're gonna make 10 bands back. What's the difference? Yeah, it's commission sales commission. Yeah, exactly exactly what it says We want to find your your ideal prospect. So, you know, we need that need a commission check Which is beautiful because the money never has to come out your pocket in that way. All right, I only get paid if You get paid great. So I gotta go back to this Topic he brought up that I did forget about Them deprioritizing playlists, right now. Let's go ahead and say Partially how we know about it one. We've seen them do it in terms of the features they focus on. Yep two They don't laid a bunch of editorial playlists Curators off. Yep. All right laid them off The focus is truly not there now I think Editorial playlisters were a great manual way for them to probably learn some things And now we're implementing that through the AI Because all the cloud and all the desire people had to be a part of editorial playlist They weren't really as impactful as most people thought Like by and large most of them there were not that impactful It was nice to have because it's something that was free. You technically didn't pay like you knew you had some relationship So it's cool. Like why would I not take these free 100,000 streams or 33,000 streams or a million streams depending on the playlist in the genre, etc So it was never something that I was anti because it was like, I'm not paying for it You're not paying for it. So why not get that? But it wasn't all as effective as people dreamed and fantasized about this How the potential to be more effective and I feel like the Spotify discovery mode And focus on the radio DJ all these ei am a ai type of features shows Yeah, we're going to continuously lean on our algorithm and improving that In this ability to help people discover And on the other side if you think about taking these humans out of it, which typically we That's a threat to artists, but on that side it actually Evens the playing field even more even more because today Although the play listing relationship Isn't something that you pay for There's always this unsaid idea of well This person has built all these relationships because they've been in the industry They can afford to be in a place to meet these people or they're connected to this group of people. So now they're in these relationships That's always existed Now those people become less valuable on that side of things like One of the homies Yeah, you mentioned he just lost his playlist plug All right He wasn't even somebody that that's unfortunate because he's not even like he's a super industry person who has all these people All right, but you just use him as a case study He has an end that other people doesn't they don't have and just Spotify. He just lost his playlist plug Now oh shit But what's the difference between me and somebody else Outside of the other intangibles specifically Like that's that with that relationship with them. Yo, what's right? It was different. Yeah, exactly. So like it's a positive for artists to Are not just for equality in terms of Hey, I want to have as many resources but also You know from a little bit of a hey in perspective Like man, y'all got all that I'm glad you lost that shit Right because there's a lot of people that are now like what am I going to do or they're trying or they see this coming And they're still trying to figure out like all right, how can I make this shake before my playlist here is gone? Yeah, yeah, I mean Yeah, I definitely see it as the great equalizer because the the rules for Everything else are much more clearer than the rules for making editorial All they tell you what to make editorial is like to have the relationship Which even that stopped mattering once they start kind of having that whole like pitch thing or Spotify right So even the relationship matter a little bit less Um, and then have the song be big enough that we care to put on here Which that is so arbitrary. You know what I'm saying? Like that could that could be like your 10,000 streams So I'm gonna qualify for this Thousand follower editorial playlist, but like I don't even get you nowhere and there been a light teardrop or something like that You know what I'm saying? Um, so I think it even the playing field because now they have in bold You know black and white print. This is what you have to do to qualify for this So now you know that as an artist no matter what level you're at No matter what how strong or weak your relationships are once you qualify for you can do it You know what I'm saying? And you can you can go through it and possibly come out of the other side with the relationships and and something bigger than What you have before so Yeah, I think it's it's going to end up being A better profit in like long term man because I to touch on what you said earlier Yeah, like Spotify's been trying to duck the payola rumors for so long And it's not like that the curators are making the easy form. You know what I'm saying? Um, so it's like, all right How can we completely remove ourselves and negative this negative stigma cut that shit? You know, like I said, we're not going to cut it off completely. But let's de-emphasize it Let's put more of the power on this algorithmic thing, which you know Be that guy, but it's cheaper build a build a program and hire a bunch of curators You know what I'm saying? Like the program is there once it's there is there these curators on jobs and benefits and pensions and vacation time You know man, so I can still do the same job to some degree with with less people No people you know what I'm saying? So as a company, I'm also saving myself not only a reputation blow About kind of moving away from this, but I'm also saving myself money from a financial standpoint And what people have to remember man when looking at these platform decisions, right? You have to always go back to the money Great things get created when motherfuckers ain't making money. It was a that's just reality You know what I'm saying and then things become better once they are making money, right? But like spot, but we said earlier spotlights been red for a long time So they're looking for any little way to kind of like, you know cut costs while also, um, you know Increase profits and I think they're they look at like hey, we have this discovery mode thing Well, we're gonna be able to take 30% so that's money being generated out the gate For money, we were to pay them anyway if they they call the moment on here Um, we can deemphasize this so we can stop the money from going around us But still being used to take advantage of our platform And you know what I'm saying? We're gonna lay some motherfuckers off and save some money You know what I'm saying? Like just put that money into some other developments that's gonna be better for us ideally So I I I get it from spotify standpoint. I'm not even a lot like honest. I think I think if I was Daniel Eck, I'll probably be making some similar calls. Like man, it's pleasant shit fucking us up But we need to get away from it, you know Not completely because that's spotify's whole thing has always been a play listen thing but Yeah, but let's move on and so that to me says That the playlist culture as a whole is probably in trouble because if spotify's been the premiere like playlist in platform And once they de-emphasize it in like two three years go by Like our fans gonna start caring about playlists as much, you know what I'm saying? Or when I when I care about your curated playlists when I know I could just go Get this, you know, AI Configurated one of my own based off of my taste and stuff like that You know say that I have to go search for and look for just kind of came to me Most consumers when I know we're going to eat that shit up once they had time is like really expensive for a bit, right? So that's why I see it going me like spotify might completely change the whole landscape of playlists and culture because of the Discovery mode and what they're doing with that on playlists and culture. It's gonna be crazy to see Well, it's gonna be real crazy to see what happens now with that being said We got to talk about artists selling their catalogs. Why are all these artists selling their catalogs the bag the bag Must be the money must be gotta be well Rocks has an article that speaks on it and I've been watching this and we haven't commented for a while Of course, we've been having our behind the scenes conversations But they speak on two reasons one of them I was aware of another one I didn't think of the first one. I didn't think about this, but I think it's really dope to consider They said As the late David's Crosby said when he sold his catalog I can't work and streaming stole my record money I have a family and a mortgage and I have to take care of them. So it's my only option I'm sure others feel the same Now he's gone and that cash is likely to comfort his family So he passed away. He had that cash to give his family very similar same vein Country star Travis Tritt said when he sold his catalog to reservoir media The biggest reason for me selling Was not to leave a huge headache for my family that would have to try to Administrate a catalog and I'd rather leave them cash This is actually the angle that I hadn't even thought of before we've talked about on the second angle, but The idea Of the headache it is if that's not your category your profession took deal of catalog administration It is a job. Yeah, it's a lot of different nuances Artists y'all are dedicated to like to building your career in this Y'all always are Acclimated to the idea of dang understanding McCut the cannibalities all these different types of royalties publishing Everything the mastering so it's a whole thing to learn And then now you have to have some lawyers and things like that that you hopefully have to trust to administrate everything He could become a thing and I can see how he sees it that way Did the other thing though, which is just straight sad how David Crosby said I can't work. I guess in the older age or dealing with Gov. Yeah, health issues and streaming stole my record money. So I'm not getting that money that I used to And I got bills to pay. All right. So this is my only option. He saw it as an only option That is this is very interesting to think about the later portion of life and why people are selling I want to get into the second then we'll kind of like talk about a combined but the other big reason If stars could be selling their catalogs has to do with taxes because the other way Oh because of the way income is taxed from royalties Artists might end up keeping more of their money by selling their publishing rights all at once Royalty payments are viewed by the r irs as regular income Which could be taxed as high as 37% under current tax codes depending on how much these royalties are Ah, I'm not well aware. Man that tax rate sucks However, a catalog sale is taxed as capital gains, which has a much lower max rate of 20% So 20% instead of 37% and I believe This trigger, I don't think it was the same years ago either either this just happened if I remember correctly or like Or maybe it's still implementing in someplace. I can't remember what it was But this tax bill was something that people saw and they saw it coming And a lot of people started selling because this was supposed to happen if I remember correctly But there it is flat out. All right. I get more money by selling it at once Not just because it's a chunk of change, but also I get taxed at a far lower rate 17% Once you start getting to 10 million, you know, I mean 20 million 100 million Well, Justin Bieber, so here's for like 500 million, right? Yes. I'm crab 100 million one two three one two three times 0.17. So let's see how much money that was in taxes. That was $85 million that he saved You know what I mean? So that's that's a nice little chunk of change That's 17 million adds up and even when you're dealing with someone who might have been selling a 70 million dollar catalog Metro Boomin just sold a 70 million dollar catalog. Let's do that math real quick Like Metro Boomin This is 1.1 million 1.1 million that extra 1.1 million is meaningful All right. I mean, I know he's doing well, but Probably not like I don't care about 1 million dollars. Well, exactly And then you're talking about the fact that that wrote you you're saving that but then also getting that's as opposed to Getting paid over time. All right. It's like it's like that That lottery situation. All right, you want your money up front or do you want to get paid increments over time? This is then when you get to the other side of it Or we talk about well, what are people doing with the money? because Let's just pretend I'm making some numbers up Like kind of like the lottery situation. I'm getting paid a hundred thousand dollars a year All right, royalties over time versus just getting 10 million dollars at once Not only might I have saved money just getting 10 million dollars at once at once because of this tax code But I can also make bigger and better business moves. All right because okay I got a hundred thousand dollars. It's nice to say I can be paid this over time And I'm going to get to 10 million even it was the exact same amount of money that I would get over time But I can only make certain moves with a hundred thousand dollars and I could with five million 10 million Oh, yeah, okay. I could buy this these apartment units now. Yeah, right? So my money might be able to allow me to get better investments Which then creates an even higher return than the turn you see the term I mean return difference you see in the beginning just by looking at oh He got a hundred thousand dollars versus 10 million dollars. So that's another thing to consider and pretty much, right? I know you and Zach talked about it this morning. I wouldn't say much but like The investment thing is a huge part of it. Yes. Well actually I take that back Yes, the investment part is a huge part of it in terms of like, hey, I could put my money in something different but also It's just a necessity anyway. Yeah, so could I add a conversation? I'm someone recently and they were like Yeah, man. What is that kind of money? like The plan is a part of it Like you already have something to do with the money No one's selling their catalog without anything to do with your money because you can't you're just going to Waste the money, right? So we talk about the money that you say about because of the tax code and and just selling your catalog at once Really if you look at how things break down and just paying off of your regular taxes Where you lose so much of that money like just by ending the same year with that on your What are you with all your gains on your tax? So We got to spend this money put it in some investments. So then that doesn't get taxed too So everybody's gonna end up be put on put be putting money in real estate for sure My tech is too risky. All right I don't know what the taxes and things look like around funds. I don't think like if you put it in some type of hedge fund Or something. I don't think that would protect you. I'm not sure So somebody else y'all know that kind of thing put that in comments or whatever on here on youtube but like literally no one Even if someone wasn't scheming specifically saying I want to get into real estate or something like that Just because of the amount of money you're dealing with there's nobody selling it Without having a plan because literally you just have to because there's that much money Yeah, exactly and the artists that are even getting those type of offers like Know that right there around people that's going to make exact now. So the first mention is how they got people that Yeah, because I noticed that when futures always call out, bro Futures always shit one of the very first things I got reported out of there was that he bought a house in Miami And he was thinking about buying another one. I was like, oh, shit Future's probably taking this money to get in real estate. You know, like let me go Maybe maybe one is for him and the rest is, you know, for real estate. Shit. That's what I like to thank the future I like thank the future is a very financially savvy guy by the scene They here for a long time. He's never looked dull or enbroke. So I think that he's he's good with his money He got some good people around him. So, you know, so Then now we can kind of watch and see like what these other artists do with what is Metro going to do What is Just maybe we're going to do you know saying what are these people that are doing or going to be doing? And so yeah, I think that's going to be cool Because we're going to in real time watch A lot of these artists kind of turn into like super business moguls in other areas off of like vc funding Which is going to be interesting to see like, you know Who does smart things with that money and who doesn't what that looks like? But I think it's It makes a lot of sense kind of with the One with the tax point in mind because I never thought about that But then you know to the point like you said like hey, if I got 20 million I could take, you know, 2 million a year for 10 years Yeah, that could be cool without 20 million right now I can go make the 10 million investment now that might make me back 100 million, right? I think a lot of the artists are seeing it like that because what I've noticed would You know, at least a lot of the more recent ones that have kind of been talked about is that These artists are doing it They do it once they hit a certain spike in their career, right? So like future. Well metro booming has been coming out the run of his last project right kind of being back out here Um, future was having like a pretty good run I think he I think he had just like broke a couple records and got some flags all right before he announced You know jam the the catalog thing. So it's like I think I mean, yes I think they're looking at the time me like hey, let me take this moment Make this money while all these different people are paying attention to me not just music people But like all these people right like in all these industries so I can then take this money Leverage this attention I have right now and go build something up of it Because that to me will be the difference between the future selling his catalog and then like David Crosby, right? Like David Crosby was at a point screw like yeah, he's David Crosby But he's not like he wasn't like out here like that anymore, right? So maybe maybe he's not thinking of how I can flip it because I may not even be in positions where You know, so I feel like I have the reach right now to hit those people versus like somebody like future Probably think like I'm hot. I'm every fucking way if I want to talk to a motherfucker about getting real estate Motherfuckin come talk to me about getting real estate. You know that um and whatever So I think it could just be the artist looking at like hey, let me make the best Financially sound um decisions while I'm currently high and can get this type of looks or get these type of opportunities for my catalog, you know see I don't know Quite out there like that, but I'll say this Apparently bad bunny's soul is catalog for a couple hundred mil. I don't even say a couple a number in the hundred mils because it's not a couple hundred mil and uh JR actually speaks on this in our in our course But one of our conversations we had Saying this to be true Bad Bunny fits the bill on the investor and artist side of what you just said bad bunny One I'm still popping. I can keep giving money and like let's be real If the number to be that high as early as he's been popping It's crazy. Yeah, like that's amazing for him. You know, I'm saying But two as an investor you're projecting this number to be even more Because the trend that he's on so they're there so for him. He's probably getting more value Quote-on-quote then it's working in the short term Because he had to hit that peak yet and the investors are you know, they're betting on the ship. Mm-hmm crazy number. I think the multiples like 30 something x which is like a crazy multiple but There's that so you have people who are in those situations but unfortunately on the other side we have people Where there's a lot of artists that we Then have money and those artists are living off of the deals that they're making like oh the record deals So you got advances that you're living off of we've had some conversations with some executives who were like This artist kind of broke actually We won't believe that he believed it because their names that everybody Like knows and would think is rich um, but You forget Kai was broke. Nobody just believed it because he's Kanye and he told people he was broke Yeah, man, you know like people would think it's a hating thing But like Tai said I'm broke. We're exugin very long be some money. Yeah, right and y'all think it was a joke Like but the broke just looks different because you're working with so much money Yeah, a person spending 300 million a year whenever we're like living a certain lifestyle But yet we already know if your expenses exceed your income then it just is what it is. All right, so like when you're looking somebody like kaya spending money on ideas and And outside of just lifestyle just let's just call your art investing in in your art And he does heavily Then yes, you can still be broke. So there's some of these artists who Could be in these positions where and let me go ahead and get this money to cash in and try to Correct someone a life that I'm living there because that's also Why it might not be worth it quote on quote for them To just play the long game Because why are investors doing this because they know they're going to be able to get more money on the other hand Like at this level, you don't see this many high level investors investing in something if they don't believe The numbers are going to grow. All right. This isn't like a crypto hype trend where you got all these regular consumers Just hopping in like oh, I can get rich now. Now. These are rich people Investing in making rich investments and shit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so All right, we already know the numbers are going to grow. I could pull up the golden sex Doc to like quote the numbers specifically of what they're supposedly growing girl to let's see if If I still have it up Nah Yeah, I'll find it But I think they said it's going to grow to like 55 million or something like that in in 2030 based on us And we're somewhere lower right now Now why would I if I'm already rich as hell Make a short-term investment like this So we talking we can say oh, yeah taxes And while you know, so I just want to make sure I can get as much money as I can here we can say My family like that part makes sense right my family. I'm about to pass away. I don't want to be deal with that All right, but if I'm already rich Like rich rich Why would I not just Keep doing I'm doing and then wait for me to maximize even more on the investment like I can't see jz Selling his shit off All right now especially probably not selling off at all, but especially now. Yeah, right But if you're in a tighter position, it's like, ah, let me sell this off now I can't wait for the long term. I remember we talked about the time where I'm like Hey, there's some points in your life where even if you know You could get more for a long term decision You just had a place in life where you're like, hey, man I gotta make this short-term decision because this not having 400 right now It's actually going to be more impactful to my life than it would be to have 10,000 later Yeah, I might not even make it to exactly. I might not make it there Right So who knows what kind of position some of these people are in like so we can we can make it about the taxes and Some of the other things to make it seem like a smart business move But some of them probably are just living tight too Right, so it's it's it's an interesting thing and it sucks that some are leaving being in this position Here's the numbers from golden step sacks. So they put it as a peak when we were heavy on physical in 2000 and then Now we are in a space where where are we 2023 24 Yeah, so we're probably somewhere sitting around 20 billion dollars just now Equating the same amount of money that we were doing in 2000 And then if we project out to 2030 That number is going to be 35 billion moving into 40 billion So that means there's a lot of growth to go. We're talking about additional 20 billion ish give or take With that being said I got us like this shout out to circa he said that Even just for inflation, we're still not even where we were back in 2000 So even the numbers might be the same, but we're actually lower, right? And even in 2030 when we continue to grow and we're at a certain point Then, you know, apparently that still wouldn't equal the peak of what we were Right, but for investor That shit doesn't matter. Yeah, because if I'm getting in today I'm only worried about the growth from today. Yeah, right before the artist in the industry as a whole Yeah, that is like a reality Uh where it's like, okay, we still aren't killing it like what we were before Streaming still isn't a perfect solution, but we project out What seven years from now More people actually adopting streaming as a platform in a way of consuming music is going to grow We're just going to equate to better Um return well I don't want to say better and returns for every artist individually, but as an industry Whole there's going to be more money than college. I'm stringing. Yeah. Yeah facts. Yeah So You know, I don't know. I mean, I guess every it's always a personal unique Scenario from artist to artist. Some of them probably have a great business moves up out of it. Some of them might need the money and Also make some great moves out of it. Hopefully more than you know That's hopefully more than that or maybe hopefully more the first that don't need it. We got the good business. Yeah Yeah, for sure. Sure. And then of course, then you got some scenarios money or not. It just don't make sense to Like hold on to it because streaming is not paying enough So might as well like for my family who aren't specialists in this area to just take a lump sum and then make smart decisions that way Yeah So, you know to each his own it's a really interesting conversation and we'll continue to see more of this But just to switch it up a little bit It takes money to make money. Should you get a job as an artist? Yes Yes, yes, straight up. That's it. No, whatever type of job. I support all the jobs man the legitimate the illegitimate I'm sorry, but really is illegitimate. They scamming scamming Remember you remember 2016 when all the popping songs all rappers was cameras. Those are there man But you know why it was popping they had money they had jobs Yeah, you know, I'm not even I'm not even go down the illegitimate illegitimate wormhole because I'll I'll flip some seemingly legitimate shit to illegitimate when I when I break it down but Do they need a job? Yes. There's a lot of artists that are like I don't know. I just want to focus on my music pool time How can you get this shit singing? How can you pay for the producers outside of scamming the producers and from that set of a not paying them? It's not cool. Yeah, that's not cool. It's not cool. Right. How can you get to a certain point? I don't understand why Some artists don't think they need a job It's because they want to be seen as serious artists before they are which You know, we talk a lot about bro. This shit is about perception And I'm not stupid if I'm looking at your Spotify monthly listeners You got 12,000 monthly listeners and your biggest song got a hundred K streams and you trying to sell me this dream on the other end that you This big arson without jobs like I'm not correct, right? Either you scamming You got a day job or you learn Yeah, but but so I think is that they think about that right like all Fans won't like me if I had a job to me well not to me but One of my favorite things that happened in the last couple years was when the rapper tira wack posted a photo of her clocking up her job I don't know if you just caught that. You don't have that. Yeah, she had posted his photo on her instagram and her like clocking the work and this was probably when she was a good like year or so until like her come up You know saying like she's this part like she's time to be more industry No And like everybody's lost their shit that doesn't damn like tira wack still has a job like this point She's probably doing like maybe maybe right at a million plus monthly listeners You know saying like, you know, she was up And that was it man I'm so glad somebody finally did this because Like this is a lot more realistic, you know and like so we learned it I think through the the market and stuff where we would talk to clients sometimes They're like on paper will be lit and then they blow all you I'm gonna hit you back when I get not come from my job But he's like job, but you gotta Yeah, a million month listeners like they're like, yeah, but you know, that's only making me, you know 6k a month and you know that plus my job. I'm making 15k a month You know saying it's like so I'm down to do both and I'm like that makes a lot of A lot of fucking sense. Right. This is one of your seven streams of revenue. You know what I'm saying? As you build your wealth. So Oh, yeah, man, I'm with it man. I think like artists need to Depending on the type of artist you are It won't hurt you, you know, because I put an action in there because rappers I don't know man. So depending on the type of rapping man, that shit might hurt you Let them know you got a job. I go a lot, but almost every other genre like fans Yeah, fans respectfully they get it, but they're like, hey, we know you're a human being We know that this shit costs money. We know you gotta survive We know that you know, we we keep hearing that the music industry don't pay you all a lot So, you know, we get it that you got a job And we're not gonna knock you forward just make some shit that I like And spend that money in a way that appeases appeases me as a fan And I don't care and if you got a job and you spend it on bullshit That don't benefit me as a fan. Yeah Yeah, I don't care. But if you are, you know, using it to invest in yourself They're like, nobody's ever gonna knock you for that nobody that wants that means well for you ever knock you for that Nah, right Now It's ironic because just last night I was talking to somebody in my family and you're like They knew somebody in the music industry Oh worked, you know, they had a regular job but the person seemed to be popping And this is his strategy. It's probably back in like, oh, no, oh This guy was working at hotels not our hotels casinos In government jobs those were his two things. Okay, and he said specifically because He went after worry about seeing everybody in the industry He was in work, you know, you got those people who will be a barista bartender And you'll see them and oh man, I'm surprised to see you here. I'll give you that guy Yeah, I'll give you that guy life. So and I know people do have that image to worry about in that way I feel good. First of all, it's only gonna be with one person at a time It's not like you're gonna have a the world on social media But then we are in a day where somebody might click. I was like, I don't know man. It might be They're more impressive that day. This is pretty social media being heavy. So Right But that was the strategy and thinking about it So even if that's the type of thought that's on your mind, you can find ways a today All these remote jobs. Yeah, anybody walking up in your house, you know, I mean now y'all might pop up on the zoom meeting They recognizing, you know, but that's that that's going to be fewer and far between But yeah, there's too many ways to get jobs, especially with the remote culture And so many jobs move on now You should be able to like get income Without worrying about that type of thing happening, but the more important part of it Why are we so focused on income? Because man It's expensive. Shit is expensive Shoulda like it's expensive gang If you don't have an investor investing in you have to be your own investor Point blank But that means you're gonna have to work to get that money. Yeah But I have this one Instance that the tear a whack thing is the most recent example. I have like something that made me go like, oh, yes It's cool. We're artists Got a job and need one the the first instance that ever made me like kind of look at it differently. This had to be like 20 20 maybe 16 or 15 and this one I was like in time for this label. I worked for and at the time we were working with this pretty Well respected legendary rapper or I will say Um, I don't want to say his name, but like no pretty big guy Like if I say his name who's affiliate with most people like, oh, I know that guy I would never forget this bro I was driving him around Atlanta Because he had to go get some clothes for a show and he asked me could I take him to walmart So he could like send his baby mom like a money order or something So we got a walmart and we stand in line and I seen him do something. I never seen a rapper doing my life I watched him check his bank account And it fucked me up because I'm like, bro, like you like a like a big rapper You know sound like are you worried that you don't have this $800 that you need for when you get you know Sound like it threw me off because like I'm young very on sound I'm thinking of it like man Like why would he do that as the type of person that the position that I'm assuming that he's in you know Say like why would he do that? And I never asked him about it. I probably asked him out of there if I ever ran into him I feel like I asked now but That was the first time when I thought like man, bro, like so these artists aren't necessarily as financially secure as they might Try to make you think And then you know, and that was the time where I do believe both of those that came out. So I got a job He probably got roasted for example. I honestly don't know what he did outside of the money He was making from us. You know, it's already real Um, so like but you fast forward to the day where We see ours is more and we are some way more humanized than ours of yesteryear, right? Um, ours have a lot more freedom to do certain things than ours of yesteryear And one of those freedoms is that you are free to be a regular person in some capacity if that if that is going to help you make it Um, especially with like platforms like tiktok. We're like now as a Now as a music fan, I can really watch my favorite artists go from being a starbucks barista to having a hit song Right and I can watch the whole journey So now You having a job is serious to you, right? Sean, this is how you make your lobby This is how you make your livelihood is how you afford to invest yourself But to me as a fan, this is just another chapter in the book You know what I'm saying? This is just another part of another add-on to the story that that makes me like you or dislike you more relates to you or not Related to you more, right? So, um, I think that you know, what artists who Do have jobs have to start thinking is like hey one Nobody has to know like you said, bro You can get a job in a space where people would never figure out. I got a I got a I had a artist hold me that For a long time Worked as like a delivery driver in a couple cities over like he wasn't going out like I'm going out here To do it because motherfuckers here probably don't recognize me because of the type of music I make I'm safe out here, right? So like you can always get a job and like you said remote or in something where people Can't really tell the shoe But then secondly you have to remember bro like Like nobody cares like the only people who care are the fans that don't know any better Right or even like industry people some industry people as well and now you got you doing five million month listings You got a job Why fuck you got a job? Let me get you in advance I can get you down those type of people care You know what I'm saying? But like fans consumers most of them get you know what I'm saying? Like especially if you are not like super mainstream It doesn't surprise them to learn that like you might have other things you have to do to make money outside of you If you like mainstream it up. That's one of your things You know what I'm saying to tell my folks you need a day job. That's one of your now you're playing with fire But if you below mainstream like nobody nobody cares I mean it's something for you to become too big of a risk to have certain jobs any Yeah, every time you're capping this burger game I'm talking about that type of artist. That's a whole other thing. Oh really good But I mean Yeah, I think people Artists have to realize that the one Even if people did have an opinion Like but this is your dream now. You're gonna let people's opinions like that stop your dream trucks No, it doesn't make sense and then two Shit, it's all marketing. Fuck it. Like if you go viral because you got a job You got some more attention While you were making money you get more money from making that money. Yeah, so like I wouldn't stress on that either now That's which amusing Because that'll probably make people More endeared to you They want to listen harder new people will discover you and then listen to your music and it was good That just creates more fans You know it being bad If I would story And sometimes the fans are trying to save you But oh no your music too good for you to be working there mcdonald's and we've got to run this shit up You know time to get you out of there. I've seen it. I've seen that bro. I've seen that happen before like Fans should go above and beyond because they Going about a procession like oh no like you doing this and this is technically like your job Is the reason why you can't spend all day talking to me on twitch? No, it's there Let me donate some money to you. I'm sorry. So you can say that shit It's crazy, bro It's crazy the way that fans go to for shit like that. So I'm here for it man. I say like you just You know really don't want it out there like that for whatever reason I know we had a client one time there was like a lawyer and he didn't want His job because he didn't want the music stuff to come back to his law firm, right? We've had examples of like that for what I'm like that makes sense Even if you just don't want to share you have to share every aspect of your life with your audience so you know what i'm saying, but Get a job, bro. Like if you're not making no money for your music You ain't got no investors no rich friends the homies brother get like suck it up and get a job bro because if you don't You know like we said this shit's expensive. You know what I'm saying this shit costs money Even you know, not even just off a market or your shit, but bro just to create cost money You know what I'm saying? This is like being a creator in general is an expensive hobby. You know what I'm saying? All these this shit mean we got in here, man That's no one looking at least about you know, I ain't trying to count out pockets But is it at least about You know about 10 bands and equipment. You know what I'm saying just to shoot this shit You know what I'm saying like what's the moment? So you think about like the investment art is out the maze, bro You need studio time you coat you need studio time cover art Mixing and mastering just to get the song out to maybe make money, bro That's crazy. You can't even put yourself in the race without spending money. You know what I'm saying? It's always just like but do what you gotta do. You know, that's how I look it Like you said, don't let don't let don't let an eight hour shift stop me from your dreams, bro People's opinion about that eight hour shift stop you from your dream And that's it. That's simple This is yet another episode of no labels necessary podcast. I'm brand man char and I'm cori and we out. Peace